Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:July:26 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/7/26-28 [Computer/SW/Database] UID:38823 Activity:nil
7/26    Hello SQL experts, I have two tables, A and B. A has 1/2 million
        rows and B has 2 million rows. The relationship is
        Whenever I have something like:
        SELECT, AVG(B.val) FROM A,B WHERE<'2008-01-01' AND
        It takes about 20-30 seconds. Anyone know why? I've already
        indexed all the ids.
        \_ Do you have an index on
           \_ Yes I do. I found out something new. I did a
              SELECT COUNT(*) FROM ... <rest is the same here>
              and I got 63 million rows. I'm guessing something
              is really screwy here, do you have a clue?
              How about INNER JOIN, is that faster? How do I use it?
              \_ The syntax you gave is an inner join by default in most
                 databases.  In mysql or pgsql at least, try adding "explain"
                 to the beginning of your select.  This will tell you which
                 keys it's trying to use, how many rows each step gets
                 filtered down to, etc.  --dbushong
        \_ Hello I'm the op. I've reduced my problem to the following.
           Say I have 4 tables, A, B, C, and D. When I do a
           SELECT COUNT(*) and I join A and B, it is pretty fast.
           When I join A, B, and C, it is twice as slow. And when
           I join all of them, it is FOUR times as slow. I've made
           sure that all the joint columns are INDEXed. Why is this
           \_ You're specifying 3 join conditions, right?  You have non-unique
              indexes on the foreign keys and unique primary keys?
              \_ Thanks Dave. Basically, column is unique, column
                 is not unique. maps to Similarly, is not
                 not unique, but also maps to Is this the reason?
                 I need a one to many mapping and I don't know how to get
                 around it.
          \_ if you're using mysql, mysql can only use one index per table.
             if you're joining on multiple columns, that could be your problem
2005/7/26 [Reference/Religion] UID:38824 Activity:nil
7/25    I have a novel approach to finding and getting rid of suicide
        bombers, please tell me what you think, and if it's doable.
        You [government] hire a bunch of patriotic Muslims to recruit
        people who are anti-government and want to blow themselves up.
        You give them backbacks filled with dud-bombs that do nothing
        but give off smoke. You then arrest them while they are smoking
        in the vicinity of a lot of people. What do you think?
        \_ That's nice here you can have a cookie before naptime.
        \_ patriotic muslims == infidel
        \_ That's similar to how we trick drug dealers.
2005/7/26 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:38825 Activity:high
7/26    Doing the jobs American's won't do...
        Mexican accused of leading document-fraud ring - Millions
        of phony IDs for illegal aliens
        \_ Yay, freeper is back! --freeper #1 fan
           \_ And Freeper doesn't know how use an apostrophe! What a
              \_ Nice way to duck the issue raised with a weak personal attack.
                 I don't read freeperlinks or like freeperguy but you're
                 making yourself look more stupid than freeperguy.  Either
                 respond intelligently, putting him in his place, or ignore it
                 if you have nothing worth saying.
                 \_ What's the issue to duck?  Freeperguy hates immigrants.
                    This has been long established.  There really isn't much
                    to do except make fun of him.
<<<<<<< /home/sgi/dcs/tms
                 \_ I'm not ducking anything. I didn't even read the article,
                    sounds boring. He didn't even make a point.
                    \_ You haven't made fun of him.  You've made yourself
                       look petty, stupid, and childish, assuming it was you
                       getting personal above.  Just ignore it.  Why can't
                       you see you're only encouraging it?
                       \_ FWIW, I wasn't the one making fun of freeperguy's
                          grammatical problems. --pp
        \_ And he's getting incredibly good at hiding his identity
>>>>>>> /etc/motd.public
2005/7/26-27 [Academia/GradSchool] UID:38826 Activity:nil
7/26    Spam filtering for grad students:
2005/7/26 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:38827 Activity:kinda low
7/26    Spare the Air Day.
        \_ So claimed the crazy Microsoft bicycle guy standing on the caltrain
           platform.  Fuck you crazy MS bicycle guy, maybe if you stopped
           yelling about how people bungee their bikes you'd have some
           credibility.  -- bought a ticket, proud to support caltrain
           \_ Caltrain rules, BART drools.
2005/7/26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:38828 Activity:moderate
7/26    So rich Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese/Singapore single lonely dude all
        mail orders pretty Vietnamese girls, what about Vietnamese
        dude?? What the hell do they do? ;)
        \_ Mail-order from Laos?
        \_ Please don't lump Singapore with males chauvinist countries like
           USA, China, Korea, Taiwan, Japan, etc.  Singapore doesn't have a sex
           ratio problem:
            at birth: 1.08 male(s)/female
            under 15 years: 1.07 male(s)/female
            15-64 years: 0.95 male(s)/female
            65 years and over: 0.79 male(s)/female
            total population: 0.96 male(s)/female (2005 est.)
           \_ Many boys die while growing up?
                \_ that's the same everywhere.  go check at:
          -> country -> people -> sex ratio
            \_ Men have higher mortality for a bunch of reasons, military
               service, more likely to be involved in violent crime, more
               likely to take stupid risks for fun, etc etc.
                \_ more likely to write on the motd
2005/7/26-27 [Science/Space, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38829 Activity:nil
7/26    So what do ppl think re: NASA?
        1) Stick with shuttle program?
        2) Scrap the shuttle, move to the next type of launch vehicle
        3) We should build a moon base
        4) Manned-Mars Ho!
        5) IIS - make it an orbital station for whatever launch vehicle
           we choose for (2).
        \_ Can't do #3 or #4 without #2. #1 is stupid. Therefore, #2.
           \_ Agreed.  -mice
                \_ We have to go ask our asian lenders for more lunch money
                   because we already spent our allowance for the next 5
                   centuries on the Iraq invasion.
                   \_ Nah -- we just allocate some of that money for starting
                      a war with our debtors, then after bombing them back
                      into the Third Age, we rebuild their country with
                      Americanized values and declare them either the 51st
                      state, or a 'Protectorate' with symbolic representation
                      in the senate.
        \_ Scrap NASA and start over, imo.  This gold-plating and closed
           competition between Lockheed and Boeing has to stop. -- ilyas
           \- A nice line I heard was "pentagon procurement is one of the
              last bastions of stalinism". where in russia are you from?
              \_ Odessa.  Interestingly, Odessa is considered the 'city of
                 humor' in Russia.  It was a largely jewish city, and there
                 is a 'certain culture' to it.  It's a lot like a russian
                 version of San Francisco, I would say. -- ilyas
                 \_ here's some pics:  --!ilyas
                 \_ So let me get this right. You're not a Jew, but you're
                    almost a Jew because of exposure with Jews? If that's
                    the case, I will start respecting you a bit.
                                -not a jew but totally worship them
                    \_ I am not russian either.  I have no nation.  You would
                       be interested to know that during the formation of the
                       state of Israel, they considered anybody who considered
                       themselves a Jew to be a Jew (for the purposes of
                       immigration). -- ilyas
                       \_ In other words, you too can be a Jew, Jew
                          worshipper guy!
2005/7/26-29 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:38830 Activity:high
7/26    To the free market troll complaining about how the government shouldn't
        fund an R&D project into better roads.  Have you any idea how many
        commercial(read: free market) companies owe their technology to basic
        science funded by the government?  Hell. If not for that, you wouldn't
        even have a career.
        \_ I am probably the guy you think is the free market troll.  You
           didn't read my posts carefully enough.  I totally support government
           funding of R&D of all kinds, government funding of roads, and
           government funding of public mass transit.  I just loathe car
           culture, and think that our present system is not based on either
           a free market or government support of rational transit, but rather
           is based on whoring out the country for the car companies and
           suburban developers.  You may address me as "anti-car troll" if
           you want to be accurate.
           \_ "whoring out the country for the car companies..."?  Did you
              just graduate from highschool?   That's the sort of
              demagoguery I'd expect from a freshman or sophomore with all the
              accompanying idealisitic 'Im gonna change the *world*!!!!'
              demagoguery I'd expect from a freshman or sophomore will all the
              accompanying idealisitic 'Im-a gonna change the *world*!!!!'
                \_ I'm not lafe but I just want to say that when I was in
                   college I was full of optimism and energy because I
                   felt that I could do a lot to make this world better.
                   Now that I'm in my 30s, working 9-5... I feel that
                   there isn't much I can really do to drastically
                   change the world. You just live life the way life
                   wants you to live. Does anyone feel similar?
                   \_ Not at all; I'm not a victim. -pp
                   \_ No.  Try to be a good guy, debate eloquently, stand by
                      your convictions.  What's so hard about that?  Make what
                      little difference you can, and enjoy watching the morons
                      around you send the world to hell in a handbasket.  And
                      regarding the comment below, Europe has good public
                      transit, but the cities are also generally a lot more
                      densely populated.  -John
                   \_ I do try to live my life modestly and reasonably, but
                      I've concluded that the world doesn't want to be made
                      better. See GC's comments on "Paradox of Our Time"
           \_ So, your alternative to car culture...?
                \_ See Europe.  Walkable/bikable cities, subsidized mass
                   transit.  High gas taxes to discourage use of the
                   automobile.  Discourage sprawl.
                   \_ Europe's big cities are very densely populated. The
                      rest of Europe uses cars just like here.
                      \_ Even smaller European cities have very usable
                         public transportation (better than, say, SF/Oak).
                         And even less densly populated regions are well
                         served by public transport. I was able to get
                         from the door of my apartment to standing on a
                         glacier (in another country no less!) solely
                         though public transport (well, and some walking).
                         \_ So you suggest a *massive* rebuilding of our
                            entire culture where we literally rip up everything
                            now in place, and rebuild everyone's home, work,
                            the transit system, utilities, everything, so you
                            don't have to live in car culture?  Seriously, I've
                            never said this to anyone before but if you're that
                            upset you should just move to another country that
                            suits you better.  Living here will just keep you
                            bitter and angry.  Note, I don't say 'make'.  You
                            are already bitter and angry to a ridiculous degree
                            over something that will *never* be anything like
                            the way you want.
                            \_ Ok, take a couple of deep breaths and re-read
                               my post. You will see that I do not suggest
                               anything; I just offered a counter statement
                               and supporting anecdote to the post before
                               me. Physician, heal thyself. -- pp
                               \_ Ok, so you advocate nothing when the original
                                  point of this sub-thread was "What is your
                                  alternative to car culture?".  To say that
                                  you advocate nothing when you're really
                                  advocating European style transit which would
                                  require a massive and near complete
                                  rebuilding of society is pure intellectual
                                  dishonesty.  To then turn around and say the
                                  fault is mine and that you're this calm and
                                  together person while I'm some nut case is
                                  pure dishonesty.  Care to actually discuss
                                  the issue instead of nutting around?
                                  \_ I predict that within 10 years gasoline
                                     will be $10/gallon and the rebulding of
                                     America into a denser and more sustainable
                                     fashion will begin happening all on its
                                     own. And yes, you are the one that sounds
                                     angry and bitter and extreme here. !-pp
                                     \_ It isn't possible to be angry/bitter
                                        about something I don't care about.
                                        Questioning someone who questions the
                                        status quo is hardly extreme.  Now
                                        you're just being silly.  Re-read and
                                        try again.  I predict that whatever
                                        happens, if you predict enough random
                                        things you'll eventually be right
                                        about some of them.
                                        \_ Are you familiar with the Peak Oil
                                           hypothesis? I am not predicting a
                                           "random" thing, I am subscribing
                                           to a theory that already has quite
                                           a bit of evidence to back it up.
                                           \_ I've read a lot on both sides of
                                              the peak oil hypothesis.  I'm
                                              still undecided.  Thinking about
                                              it now, no, I don't think oil
                                              will ever get to $10/gallon in
                                              today's currency because there
                                              are other energy sources that
                                              cost less than that, but more
                                              than the current price.  Oil
                                              can exceed those numbers due to
                                              current inertial reliance, but
                                              not to infinity and I don't
                                              believe to $10/g.  I still
                                              remember all the scare movies
                                              in the 70s telling us how by
                                              the mid 80s the world would be
                                              completely out of oil.  I'm not
                                              easily convinced that state of
                                              affairs is always ~10 years away.
                                              \_ A while ago I saw a seaman's
                                                 handbook written in the 70's
                                                 that quite sincerely stated
                                                 that sail might well be comming
                                                 back in the near future so
                                                 merchant seamen should learn
                                                 sailing related skills.
                                              \_ So I did some research and
                                                 I agree that because of coal
                                                 to gasoline processes, gas
                                                 will probably not hit $10
                                                 anytime soon. I think $5 is
                                                 very likely though.
                         \_ I wouldn't say that smaller cities have better
                            public transport than SF does. There is, for
                            instance, no subway. You might be able to get
                            on a bus, but you can do that here, too, if
                            you don't mind a 3 hour trip to go 20 miles.
                            My point was that Europe, outside of the dense
                            cities, is also a car culture. Try driving
                            from Paris to the Mediterranean during the
                            summer. The roads are packed. Mostly the old and
                            the poor use public transport, just like here,
                            unless they live in a big city (like our NYC).
                            Plenty of Europeans own cars and use them to,
                            say, go to Wal-Mart.
                            \_ Yeah, traffic here is horrible, as bad as
                               LA -- I don't deny that (though the highways
                               are also much narrower). But at the same time,
                               of the 12 people I work with closely, every
                               single one takes public transportation to work.
                               of the 12 people I work with closely, not a
                               single one drives to work.
                               I live in a town that isn't that much larger
                               than Des Moines and it has functioning public
                               transportation. You are right, there is no
                               subway here, but there are trams. However,
                               to go 20 mi, I wouldn't use either -- I'd
                               take a train and, if well timed, it should take
                               about 40 minutes door-to-door with public
                               transportation (less if I biked to the train
                               station, which I probably would). It is un-
                               realistic to expect the US to become this way
                               overnight, and there are some inherent
                               differences between Europe and the US that
                               may make it hard to implement such a system,
                               but the difference isn't just an "economy-
                               of-scale" effect from large cities -- many
                               smaller European cities have well functioning
                               public transportation.
                            \_ When I was on vacation, I took trains everywhere.
                               The train from Nice to Paris took about seven
                               hours. I could have done it in a bullet train
                               in about four, but I wanted to do it overnight
                               and get a sleeper. The people I shared my
                               cabin with certainly were not poor.
                               \_ Trains will get you to a city, but are
                                  not helpful to get you to a particular
                                  destination. I can fly from LA to SF
                                  for cheap, so I guess flying is better
                                  than public transportation. Why would
                                  someone take a train to Nice if they
                                  could fly?
                                  \_ Easy -- it takes an hour to get from
                                     your house to the airport, where you
                                     need to arrive an hour in advance.
                                     The flight takes an hour, and it
                                     takes another hour to get from the
                                     airport to the city center. So, even
                                     though the flight is only 1 hr, you
                                     are in transit for 4 hours. When
                                     factoring in the time it takes to get
                                     to the train station, it probably
                                     takes a little bit longer, but the
                                     experience is much more pleasant.
                                     \_ The solution is obviously to build
                                        more airports so that it won't
                                        take 2 hours there/back.
                                        \_ Or more train stations with
                                           bullet trains.
                                  \_ You can take a cab or local transit
                                     or even rent a car once you get there.
                                     Flying is a sort of mass transit, actually.
                                     How is it fundamentally different than
                   \_ Same as in Hong Kong and around the Tokyo area.  Many
                      people have nice cars, but they don't drive them
                      \_ In Tokyo, you don't have to. In NYC, you don't
                         have to. It's unreasonable to expect the same
                         level of public transit in, say, Des Moines.
                         \_ I've never been to Tokyo, but the idea that you can
                            get around NYC with just public transit is simply
                            wrong.  Even if you want to think that Manhattan =
                            NYC, this still isn't so and the incredible number
                            of cabs and other private driving services should
                            make this clear.  If public transit was so great
                            and workable in NYC, there wouldn't be so many
                            cabbies.  A cab is *waaaay* more expensive than
                            public transit, btw.
                            \_ There are tons of cabbies in Tokyo, and
                               Seoul as well.  Seoul has great public
                               transit, but that doesn't mean you don't
                               sometimes need a car, and therefore a cab.
                               There are even some cases where a cab is
                               cheaper than public transit.  Quite a few
                               in fact. -jrleek
                               \_ Absolutely. I don't think many people are
                                  arguing for getting rid of all cars. Taking
                                  public transit for an IKEA shopping trip
                                  is probably impractical, and there are
                                  plenty of remote regions that don't need
                                  to be served by public transit. The aim
                                  of car alternatives should not be to
                                  replace cars in all situations, just
                                  common ones (people don't go on IKEA
                                  shopping sprees every day, people do
                                  go to work every day).
                                  \_ in other countries ikea provides
                                     very good delivery service for
                                     big items.  for small items, just
                                     call a cab.  still don't need car.
                             \_ I have been to NYC dozens of times and have
                                never taken a cab. The transit system does
                                everything I have ever wanted it to do in
                                NYC. Have you ever even been there before?
                                \_ yes, i was born and raised there.  how many
                                   times did you visit our fine city?
                                   \_ dozens. I don't know the exact number.
        \_ Someone needs to ilyas this post.
           \_ To verbify is the American way... urr, I mean it's to
        \_ I think that guy didn't have a problem with government funding R&D
           projects in general.  He only had a problem with funding R&D
           projects into better roads.

an way... urr, I mean it's to
        \_ I think that guy didn't have a problem with government funding R&D
           projects in general.  He only had a problem with funding R&D
           projects into better roads.
2005/7/26-28 [Computer/HW/IO] UID:38831 Activity:nil
7/27    anyone want to sell me a used kinesis keyboard?  email
        me - danh
2005/7/26-8/19 [Computer/SW/Unix, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:38832 Activity:nil
7/26    Root will be moving office home directories to the new file server
        this Friday, and soda home directories this Saturday.  Expect
        downtime, I've gotta rsync off of TDA: the slowest disk on the face
        of the earth.  - jvarga
        \_ Home dir move postponed pending some serious issues with keg and
           new soda. - jvarga
           \_ Home dir move complete.
2005/7/26-28 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:38833 Activity:moderate 57%like:38555 53%like:38796
7/26    More administrativa including upcoming downtime.  Read the official
        motd you hozers. - jvarga
        \_ jvarga et al -- what sorts of booze?  I'd be glad to donate some
           cash for a discretionary entertainment fund for our hardworking
           rootish adminy volunteer people....     -mice
           \_ I dunno.  I don't drink alcohol at all, and njh is going to be
              out of town.  Chances are that I will be making these changes
              in my underwear from the comfort of my home. - jvarga
              \_ You shouldn't request booze if you don't want any.  Your
                 punishment to drink the vodka in the filing cabinet! ...
                 No, I guess being the CSUA sysadmin is punishment
                 enough... :P
                 \_ I usually request booze to make the rest of root easier
                    to work with. - jvarga
                    \_ Back in my day, we just used the bat for that.  When
                       twohey wasn't busy using it on his project partners,
                       that is...
           \_ I think the last time root types assembled with alcohol, we had
              wine.  Perhaps a dessert wine, like a port.
              \_ fag.
                 \_ I don't get it.  What would you prefer?
                    \_ I think ya do, Trebek!  I think ya do!
                       \_ Buckfutter!!1!
                    \_ It's a joke, son.
        \_ jvarga - are you going to be in Berkeley next tuesday afternoon?
           I'd like to thank you (and give you a donation for the csua) in
           person. --ranga
           \_ I get out of classes at 4pm, after which I'll likely be in the
              office slamming my head against things after the home dir move.
              - jvarga
           \_ stalker alert!
           \_ ranga I'm poor, can you please treat me to Fondue Fred
              tomorrow?                                 -poor student
              \_ poor student: so presumably you have some free time and
                 talent to donate.  do do anything for the CSUA or are
                 talent to donate.  do you do anything for the CSUA or are
                 you just a leech?
                 \_ he's a poor student precisely because he has no free
                    time and/or talent with which to make money.
                    \_ I'm a poor student because I spend all my time doing
                       stuff for the CSUA rather than getting a real job.
                       - jvarga
        \_ Any idea when /ftp will be up again?  Thx.
2005/7/26-28 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:38834 Activity:nil
7/26    What is the maxium hard disk size with LBA48? Where can
        I find a LBA48 spec? I've looked everywhere.
        \_ The upper limit to LBA48 is somewhere on the order of 144
           petabytes, or 144000 million gigs. In other words, there's no
           need to every worry about geometry sized limitations according
           to the spec.
           \_ No one will ever need more than 64k of RAM.
              \_ Well, actually, you might be right. The complete
                 archived internet contains about 1 Petabyte of data,
                 so on a simple linear extrapolation an LBA48 drive that
                 contains a 144 petabyte drive the would run out of disk
                 space in about 150 years. I'm not quite sure if the
                 web is expanding or not or if that expansion is linear
                 or geometric, I would assume the latter, so it may only
                 last for say 25 years.
        \_ If we're talking about the same thing, it's 2^37 bytes, AKA 128GiB
           aka 137GB.
           \_ No, you're wrong.
2005/7/26-29 [Consumer/Camera, Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:38835 Activity:low
7/26    What are the pros and cons of Compact Flash versus Secure Digital
        for a camera?
        \_ Please add to the list:
           Pro for CF:
           1. harder to break physically
           2. harder to lose
           Pro for SD:
           1. smaller form factor
        \_ You can get a Firewire CF reader from Lexar and SanDisk but
           afaik no one makes a FW SD card reader.
           I've tried a FW and a USB2 CF reader and the FW reader is
           noticably faster.
           \- my understanding is cameras are moving in the direction of SD
              but it seems to me there isnt much of a choice today, meaning
              you can choose whether to get the same body with CF or SD.
              and i wouldnt think not having SD is a reason to rule out
              a body or somethign especially important to wait for [as might
              be a full size sensor etc. with somethign that small, who cares
              about size [assuming it is a decent sized camera].
              \_ Really?  A friend who knows pro photographers said that SD
                 isn't taken seriously because it's too fragile.  It's thin
                 isn't taken seriously because it's too fragile.  It's small
                 and the "pins" are exposed.  On the other hand, perhaps
                 amateur photography has moved toward SD; PDAs certainly have.
           \_ There are loads of multi-card readers (CF, SD, Memory Stick, etc)
              around.  I have one, I can look up the maker if you want.  -John
                 \- the author of made the claim
                    about moving CF -> SD. i find this peculiar ... i'd think
                    it would be easier to make say a 8gb card in the CF form
                    factor than SD, and i think people want space and speed
                    over saving 1oz. anyway, just passing along a claim.
        \_ Is one or the other more reliable/longer lasting?
        \_ As above mentioned, size is a key factor.  I think for consumer
           digicams, SD is the way to go.  Last I checked, CF was still quite
           a bit faster than SD.  If that's still the case, CF definitely
           belongs in prosumer and upper level cameras. Oh, and another
           advantage for CF is that it's just a PCMCIA on a smaller form.
           So compatibility with laptops(with pcmcia adapter) will be better.
           \_ new laptops and pcs seems to have card readers built in.
2005/7/26-28 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:38836 Activity:nil
7/26    What's a graphical mail reader for unix that lets
        me specify multiple SMTP servers for sending email?
        For instance for GMAIL i want to use <DEAD><DEAD> .
        for work I want to use <DEAD><DEAD> . I can sort of do
        it in Thunderbird if I manually change the SMTP server
        every time I send mail from certain locations. - danh
        \_ Mozilla.  Under Mail & Newsgroup settings -> SMTP Servers ->
           Advanced.  Probably Tbird as well.  -John
2005/7/26-27 [Academia/GradSchool, Recreation/Humor] UID:38838 Activity:nil
7/26    Was it a Douglas Adams book that had an offhand joke about the
        Committee For The Study Of The Exceedingly Obvious?
2005/7/26-31 [Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:38839 Activity:nil
7/26    My wife uses NJStar on Windoze, but is thinking of changing to the
        Mac;however, entering text in traditional chinese is a pain. Is
        there an input method for OS X that is similar to that used by
        NJStar? tia.
        \_ yes.  OSX comes w/ builtin language support for typing chinese.
           i know you can do the pinyin method of input.  i'm know there are
           \_ thx for the reply. the default input method seemed very slow
              and painful on my G5 in comparison to NJStar on windows using
              pinyin. However, using the translation feature from simple to
              traditional wasn't too awful, though, we couldn't do the whole
              document at once. Any plugins that are faster and/or more
              intuitive than the defaults? TIA.
              \_ i only know of the defaults.  the input seems relatively
                 speedy to me.  NJStar is definitely more polished, but i
                 haven't had any problems inputing chinese (1.5G of RAM).  you
                 might try to see if they have
                 any more details.
                 \_ thx. saw this site before, but didn't have a clue to which
                    plugin might be good. I think we may get her mac this
                    weekend. :-)
                        \_ I use a Tablet PC to write Chinese. Nothing is more
                           nature than writing Chinese and having it converted
                           with over 99% recognition rate. It's amazing.
                           \_ way cool!
2019/01/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:July:26 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>