Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:July:18 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2005/7/18-19 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:38671 Activity:nil
7/18    Does anyone have good or bad experiences with networked media
        centers?  If so, which do you have?
        \_ Does a hacked XBox count? If so, I've had one for about 18
           months and it works great as a MP3/AVI/DVD player. A recent
           version of the hacked firmware lets you upconvert AVIs and
           unencrypted DVDs to 720p and 1080i. The upconverting isn't
           as good as my Oppo DVD player but its not bad.
           \_ Where did you get the hacked XBox?  Did you hack it yourself?
              \_ Hacked it myself. The new mod chips take all of 15 mins
                 to install and even come w/ a switch to turn them off
                 in case you need to use your XBox for XBox Live.
                 \_ How hard are they to install?
                    \_ Mod chips are dead easy to install. You just
                       click them into place, turn on the XBox and
                       wait for the little red led on the mod chip
                       to turn on indicating you did it right. Most
                       of the 15 mins need to mod your XBox involves
                       unscrewing the case and hd.
2005/7/18 [Science/Biology] UID:38672 Activity:low
7/16    Darwin Stickers
        http://tinyurl.com/6y62o (swarthmore.edu)
        \_ It's a bit late now. This is the trend of America:
           http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/17/mega.church.ap
           \_ Nothing in that article says that the members of that church
              are opposed to evolution, but I generally agree w/ your sentiment
              that we are stuck in a strange society that embraces all the
              benefits of science while refusing to acknowledge the true nature
              of the world as revealed by science.
              \- parenthetically, society has now and then gone too far
                 in the other direction. see e.g. "positivism". but i
                 agree if i would king you would have to take pledge
                 renouncing creationism if you wanted antibiotics.
                 \_ Or using coal or oil.
              \_ Not to mention the fact that the current status of America
                 as a world superpower was fueled by our technical superiority
                 and leadership in the sciences in the 50s and 60s.
           \_ Best quote in that story "It was almost surreal"
        \_ I don't get the joke.  Are these a parody of some gangsta thing
           I've never seen?
           \_ I assume it's a parody of this:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_the_Giant_Has_a_Posse
2005/7/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38673 Activity:nil
7/16    Control Room-- this award winning 2003 documentary tells the story
        of the war in Iraq from all perspectives, from the US to Arab media.
        Many of the challenges are shared by journalists everywhere. They
        are all under pressure to spin the story to their employers' wishes.
        This is fine and troubling film that challenges all our perceptions.
        Highly recommended. Control Room, now my favorite documentary of all
        time, MUST SEE NOW:    http://tinyurl.com/bjde3 (amazon.com)
        \_ Don't forget:  If you're an American and you claim that military
           personnel blew up the TV station employee on purpose, you might
           get in trouble.
           \_ I'd shut your mouth unless you are eager to get bombed
              accidentally by the smart bombs.          -USAF
              \_ I'm glad both you hate our military so much. When have you
                 ever cared about someone else when it didn't involve $?
                 \_ I don't hate the military -- far from it.  I'm just warning
                    other sodans that, you might get in trouble if you're an
                    American and you claim that U.S. military personnel blew
                    up a TV station employee on purpose.  I assume you've
                    watched the movie?
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38674 Activity:kinda low
7/16    You guys are screwed! Loser, ha ha ha ha                -conservative
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050718/ap_on_re_us/party_money
        \_ What's their stock symbol?
           \_ REPU
           \_ TWAT  -John
           \_ FUCU
2005/7/18 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:38675 Activity:nil
7/18    I'm trying to infiltrate into the freeper site but apparently they
        already blocked off an entire class D network, both at school and at
        home. Does anyone have a similar problem? Can I get an anonymizer
        to work? Anyone recommend a good and FREE anonymizer? Sameer's
        <DEAD>anonymizer.com<DEAD> stops working after clicking a few times.
        \_ Don't you have anything better to do?
        \_ A real hacker would know how w/o using crap like anonymizer.
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38676 Activity:high
7/18    Bush says any "criminal" involvement in leak will lead to firing;
        seriously, how is this not a flipflop?
        \_ You apparently haven't been paying attention.  Maybe you can suggest
           why you think it is a flipflop?
           \_ On the contrary, I've been paying attention carefully. His
              mouthpiece, McClellan, said, in a press conference that Bush
              said that anyone involved in the case would no longer work for
              the administration; Bush has now added the word "criminally."
              If this is not a flipflop, is it not at the very least a
              "nuanced" position?
              \_ flip flop: f(x) = -x
                 nuance: f(x) = x +/- epsilon
                 \_ In light of the official quote below, what is your
                    call?  Flip flop, nuance, or in-between?
                    \_ f(involved) = criminally involved
                       Certainly not a flip flop.  Nuanced?  Is "criminally"
                       bigger than epsilon?  Probably.  I'd call it a
                       refinement, where f(x) = x +/- delta, and delta < x.
                       \_ If this were a Democratic administration, they'd
                          be screaming for heads to roll.
                          \_ Shrug.  The Democrats are screaming for heads to
                             roll.  Why do you persist in thinking there is
                             any difference between R and D behavior?
                    \_ The "it" was "outing a covert CIA agent".  That's a
                       crime, so if anyone is convicted, we'll know if they
                       were involved.  Seems consistent to me.
                       \_ Why didn't anyone bother to check whether Plame was
                          a CIA NOC at the time?  Rove does have Top Secret
                          clearance.
                          \_ If Rove heard it from a reporter, he didn't get it
                             through secret means.
                             \_ Even if this bullshit is true, he passed on the
                                info to Cooper, according to Cooper's testimony
                             \_ Am I on crazy pills or are you suggessting
                                that Rove got his info from a reporter, not
                                that he gave info to a reporter?
                                \_ That's what Rove said--that he heard it from
                                   Novak and mentioned it in his email to
                                   Cooper.
                                   \_ Which, of course, directly contradicts
                                      everything Novak has said on the matter.
                                      It's amazing what happens when you get
                                      this many habitual liars together.
                                      \_ Um, no it doesn't.  Please show how
                                         this contradicts Novak.
                                         \_ "I didn't dig it out, it was given
                                            to me. They thought it was
                                            significant. They gave me the name
                                            and I used it." --Bob Novak to
                                            Newsweek, July 22, 2003.
                                         \_ Also see http://CNN.com link in new
                                            thread at top of motd.
           \_ http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030929-7.html
              Q No, but you say that --
              MR. McCLELLAN: -- that suggests White House involvement. There
              are anonymous reports all the time in the media. The President
              has set high standards, the highest of standards for people in
              his administration. He's made it very clear to people in his
              administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest
              standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was
              involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration.
2005/7/18-19 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:38677 Activity:nil
7/18    rookie unix permissions question:
        I have the following file -
        /sourcedir/filename
        I have group write permission to the file.
        I want to move it to another directory:
        /targetdir/filename
        On one system, the target file is owned by me after the
        move, but on another system, it's still under the
        original owner.  Why is that? What determines the
        ownership.  tia.
        \_ UID (not the username) and/or how you moved the file. In some
           cases, ownership will change, in others, the original UID is
           preserved. Note that the user name assoricated with a UID may
           be different on different systems.
           \_ I want the UID to be changed to my UID (rather than the
              original UID) after the move.  Is there a way to force that?
              \_ cp from to && rm from
              \_ cp and tar change it to your UID by default. Check your
                 aliases to see if you have the preserve options set. Also,
                 extracting with tar as root will preserve the UID.
                 \_ thanks for the workarounds.  does it help if I have
                    root access (i.e. is it something the root would be
                    able to configure)?  The file move is part of a perl script
                    that I would rather not change unless necessary.
                    \_ How are you doing the actual file copy?
        \_ Is the sticky bit for the directory turned on in the second
           case? That can cause the problem you are having. -ausman
2005/7/18-19 [Recreation/Media] UID:38678 Activity:nil
7/18    For those of you who don't want any Harry Potter Spoilers:
        http://www.frozenreality.co.uk/comic/bunny/index.php?id=317
        NOTE: Bunny is a comic and there are NO Harry Potter Spoilers
              in this particular strip.
2005/7/18-19 [Science/GlobalWarming, Science/Physics] UID:38679 Activity:nil
7/18    More "cold" fusion results:
        http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/2005/050712.Xu.fusion.html
        \_ So, this could possibly produce net energy gain?
           \_ A different article I read on this quite some time ago said no
              way, it was only interesting in a theoretical sense.
              \_ That's cool, I'm all for improving our understanding of
                 fusion.  It just that the article is half about how
                 fusion is going to solve all of our energy problems.
        \_ [elevated]
        \_ Someone posted on 4/27:
           http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050425/full/050425-3.html
2005/7/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38680 Activity:low 50%like:38688
7/18    Dear Jewish people on motd. I totally admire your culture. I'm
        not a Jew so a lot of things are screwed up in my family.
        My family is poor, my parents are split, my dad is an alcoholic
        and I don't get along with my drug addict brother. However I also
        consider myself to be pretty lucky because I'm the first in my family
        to go to college and I have loans that cover a majority of my
        expenses, the rest I cover by working part time here and there.
        I've always said to myself that if I ever start a family of my own
        I'd make it a lot better. I'd model my family after good Jewish
        families. I want to be as Jew as possible. What can I do to
        get more exposure to Jewish families? Can I get adopted, or
        be a new convert? I admire you, and I want in. I am not
        trolling, I'm being serious.              -Jeworshipper
        \_ BTW, is Jewish family culture better than Chinese family culture?
        \_ Check out Hillel. Don't expect them to be too welcoming at
           first, but if you are serious you can convert. Expect to
           have to learn Hebrew.
           \- Just change your name to Cohen or Levi and tell people
              you are a Jew.
              you are Jewish.
           \_ "Hello, my name is John Doestein."
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38681 Activity:very high
7/18    http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/29/novak.cia
        http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031001.shtml
        Above is the original http://CNN.com story and Novak's follow-up column from
        two years ago.
        If we assume that Rove, Libby, et al. are all innocent, it would appear
        that the main people to blame are Novak and his unofficial CIA source.
        Novak said, "According to a confidential source at the CIA, Mrs. Wilson
        was an analyst, not a spy, not a covert operative and not in charge of
        undercover operators".
        This is technically not true -- Plame was a NOC.  The view of Novak's
        unofficial CIA source was that Plame worked in the U.S. most of the
        time as an analyst, and that Plame was also well known in Washington
        (probably gossipped about on the "cocktail circuit" as Joe Wilson's hot
        wife the CIA agent), so she therefore wasn't covert.
        This was a mistake by Novak and his CIA source, even with all of
        Novak's excuses, since the CIA did erect an entire front company for
        Plame and the _official_ CIA source told him not to use her name.
        Novak considerably broadened the number of people who knew of Valerie
        Plame the CIA agent:  from people on the DC cocktail circuit, to anyone
        interested in the WMD controversy in Iraq -- which means a whole lot
        of people on the left and right.
        Again, I am assuming Rove, Libby, et al. are all innocent.
        (I am purposely going to ignore the http://CNN.com story's lead sentence:
        "while [Novak] learned the identity of a CIA operative from
        administration officials, there was 'no great crime' and that he was
        not the recipient of a planned leak".)
        \_ The public ain't buying it:
           http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=949950
           \_ What does the poll have to do with the post?
        \_ Where is it proven that Plame was NOC at the time (or recently)?
           The Washington Times says that she was "outed" a decade ago:
           http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040722-115439-4033r.htm
           \_ The Washington Times is a mouthpiece for the GOP.
           \_ It can't be proven (by anyone here), but when the CIA asks the
              DoJ to launch a criminal investigation, I defer to their
              knowledge of the situation.  And, really, washington times?
                                           \_ Oh shut the fuck up.
                                              \_ You think WT is a reputable
                                                 news source?  Leave now.
              \_ This is the same CIA that said there was WMD in Iraq?  And
                 did you defer to their knowledge then?
                 \_ We don't know what the CIA said about Iraq's WMD.  We know
                    what the President said they said.  And the inquiry into
                    that transaction, which was supposed to happen, still
                    hasn't.
                    \_ I'm not the guy you're reponding to, but Duelfer's
                       report pretty much says the CIA screwed it all up.
                       There was also supposed to be an investigation into how
                       the Administration used the CIA's screwed up
                       intelligence, but that investigation didn't happen.
                 \_ The President deferred to the CIA's judgment that WMDs were
                    in Iraq, or at least, that's what the story is.
           \_ Please read the sentence, "Novak considerably broadened ..."
              \_ Which adds nothing.  Where is it factually stated that Plame
                 was NOC at any recent time before Novak's column?
                 \_ It's likely not.  It would be dangerous and possibly
                    illegal to state that openly.  See Blitzer's interview
                    with Wilson.
                 \_ No, it responds to the statement, "says that she was
                    'outed' a decade ago".  As for "proven", it's not yet
                    proven, but the preponderance of evidence is that it is
                    so.  This is addressed in my second post beginning,
                    "The CIA's asking ..." later in this thread.
           \_ The Washington Times says Reverend Moon can cure teh gay. Ah,
              the joys of owning your own paper.
              \_ How do you know he can't?
                 \_ It's likely not.  It would be illegal to state that openly.
                    See Blitzer's interview with Wilson.
                 \_ 'Cos the first three mass weddings didn't stick.
           \_ sfchron response to this claim: "But the CIA didn't hesitate
              to forward the leak allegation to the Justice Department for
              possible prosecution. She operated a front company based in
              Boston and sometimes traveled overseas posing as a private
              energy analyst, yet she also had a desk at CIA's Langley
              headquarters. Some fellow agents who knew her as Val P. in
              training recall her proficiency with foreign languages and an
              AK-47, but she said her work as a spy was unknown to friends
              and neighbors."   http://csua.org/u/cqu
              \_ Oh yeah, sfchron.  That settles that argument.
                 \_ Washington Times and NY Post have long, well-earned
                    reputations for being rags. The SF Chron has a horrible
                    writing style (and I hate it), but no one questions their
                    journalistic integrity.
                    \_ What?  No one questions the SFComical's journalistic
                       integrity?  The other two have well-earned reputations
                       as rags?  I've barely read the NYP or WT but I've read
                       the SFComical for years.  Who exactly are these people
                       that share this 'commonly accepted public perception'
                       with you?  Is there some web page I can find somewhere?
                       thanks!
                    \_ Yeah, uh, that's pretty funny.  SF Chron is even worse
                       than the LA "we only dig dirt on republican candidates"
                       Times. -- ilyas
                       \_ On what do you base this criticism of the L.A. Times?
                          \_ LA Times went on record when Davis was running for
                             governor saying they don't dig dirt on governor
                             candidates.  However, they sent most of their
                             reporters to dig dirt on Arnold during the recall.
                             This was a fairly big issue in LA at the time.
                               -- ilyas
                             \_ Can you find the URL?  Even without the URL, I
                                can tell you that what probably happened was
                                that Davis's faults were all self-evident (look
                                at the damn budget deficit), while Ahnold's
                                escapades were all plausiably deniable ("oh,
                                escapades were all plausibly deniable ("oh,
                                it's all gossip and probably just happened when
                                he was young and defining himself, and even if
                                it were true, hey, it's Ahnold!"), so they
                                sought to make his groping more evident to
                                voters ("Yes, you are really electing someone
                                who at the very least is a groper.")
                                -L.A. resident and frequent L.A. Times reader
                                who voted for Arnold anyway
                                who voted for Arnold anyway, and will vote
                                Ahnold out at the next opportunity since his
                                performance has not been adequate (please don't
                                ask me to compare to Davis -- it's like
                                different varieties of "bad")
                                \_ Does the blatant hypocrisy of that paper
                                   not bother you one bit, or do you just
                                   not believe me?  -- ilyas
                                   \_ When the topic is Ahnold's groping, my
                                      opinion is that they did the right thing.
                                      Like I wrote before, Davis's faults were
                                      plain to all voters.  Yes, I voted for
                                      someone I was pretty sure was a groper,
                                      and I knew that at the time I voted.
                                      I did so because Davis's failures could
                                      not be excused.
                                      When the topic is "blatant hypocrisy of
                                      that paper" in general, I dispute that
                                      there is a "blatant hypocrisy", but
                                      put the L.A. Times at the high-end of
                                      professional journalism.
                                      I consider myself a voracious consumer of
                                      all major Internet-accessible news
                                      outlets and referenced original sources
                                      (cia.gov) for the last five or so years.
                                      I've also been paying attention to the
                                      left- and right-wing blogs and forums.
                                      I, like Bill O'Reilly says he does,
                                      call things as I see them, preferring
                                      to identify things as accurate or
                                      inaccurate portrayals of the truth of
                                      the matter rather than "left-wing" or
                                      "right-wing".
                                      Of course, I could be totally wrong about
                                      the L.A. Times, just like I think
                                      O'Reilly doesn't get it right in many
                                      fundamental ways, but at that point it's
                                      just a matter of how solid your argument
                                      and facts are versus the other person's.
                                      \_ I think there are multiple levels of
                                         hypocrisy here.  That LA Times covered
                                         Arnold's faults but not Davis' at the
                                         time of the recall is one problem
                                         (that Davis' faults were 'plain to see'
                                         is not really an excuse for a paper).
                                         But LA Times also did not dig dirt on
                                         Davis when Davis himself was running
                                         for office!  And more, they claimed it
                                         was a matter of policy for them not to.
                                         The violation of their own stated
                                         policy is also hypocritical. -- ilyas
                                         \_ My contention is that Davis's
                                            problems had been well publicized,
                                            which made them widely
                                            acknowledged.
                                            They already dumped a shitload on
                                            Davis -- they just hadn't done so
                                            on Ahnold yet.
                                            Anyways, can you find the URLs?
                                            I occasionally find myself blaming
                                            a news outlet for some apparent
                                            problem but later realize that I
                                            misread what was written.
                                            \_ They were never plain to me.
                                               What were they, in your eyes?
                                               --scotsman
                                               \_ $x billion budget deficit,
                                                  I forgot whether x was 21
                                                  or 40.
                                                  I assume that was why
                                                  Davis was voted out in
                                                  such a big way -- that other
                                                  people saw this ...
                                            \_ The important person here is
                                               former LA Times reporter Jill
                                               Stewart.  See for instance:
                        http://www.jillstewart.net/php/issues/issue1014.php
                                                 -- ilyas
                                               \_ Thanks.  I was reading that
                                                  exact URL between when you
                                                  posted Jill's name and when
                                                  you posted the URL.
                                                  This sums up my argument
                                                  though:  The L.A. Times staff
                                                  has a bias against gropers
                                                  being elected governor of
                                                  California.  This bias is
                                                  excusable in my book.
                                                  (Also, I know this undercuts
                                                  my position, but I had been
                                                  pretty pissed about the
                                                  groping articles coming out
                                                  two weeks for the election,
                                                  but I've since changed my
                                                  mind.)
           \_ Your links says: "Mrs. Plame's identity as an undercover CIA
              officer was first disclosed to Russia in the mid-1990s by a
              Moscow spy"  Umm... Russia intelligence may know about or have
              guesses about a great number of our secret operatives, as we
              likely have similar knowledge or guesses of theirs.  Neither
              party knowing that information is the same as "public knowledge."
           \_ Please read the sentence, "Novak considerably broadened ..."
           \_ The CIA's asking the DoJ to conduct a criminal investigation
              is the strongest evidence that Plame was NOC at the time.
              C'mon -- you have a special prosecutor, Patrick J. Fitzgerald,
              bugging Dubya, Cheney, Rove, and Libby after all.
              Here is a non-anonymous column written by a former CIA agent:
              http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/13/04720/9340
              "A few of my classmates, and Valerie was one of these, became
              a non-official cover officer.  That meant she agreed to operate
              overseas without the protection of a diplomatic passport.  If
              caught in that status she would have been executed."
              This is weaker than the fact there is an investigation going
              on now, but stronger than as if it had come from an anoymous
              author.
              \_ You know, Johnson was doing well until he started bashing
                 Bush.
                 \_ Let's ignore what Johnson wrote about Bush and focus on
                    the topic at hand:
                    What do you think about the truth of the claim (that Plame
                    was NOC for a while and was still NOC when Novak published
                    his column) itself?  Do consider that there is an ongoing
                    investigation with a grand jury and testimony from VIPs
                    taking place right now.
                    \_ Well, should I ignore what Johnson wrote about Plume's
                       NOC status also?  Are Johnson's claims re Plume credible
                       after his partisan rant?  Do I trust the CIA to know
                       more about its employees than about Iraq?  Is the CIA
                       Justice referral more motivated by politics?  My
                       answers: yes, no, yes, don't know.
                       \_ While you answered four questions you volunteered
                          yourself, you forgot to answer the question that's
                          the topic at hand in this particular thread:
                          "What do you think about the truth of the claim (that
                          Plame was NOC for a while and was still NOC when
                          Novak published his column) itself?  Do consider that
                          there is an ongoing investigation with a grand jury
                          and testimony from VIPs taking place right now."
                          \_ What's the evidence that she was or wasn't a
                             NOC at the time?
                             \_ Search this thread for "strongest evidence".
                                It's in the post right before you say,
                                "You know, Johnson was doing well until he
                                started bashing Bush."
                                \_ And I asked "Is the CIA Justice referral
                                   more motivated by politics?".  "Don't know,"
                                   I answered.  BTW, I see that you are
                                   abandoning Johnson whom you were originally
                                   touting as evidence.
        \_ Ah, but Novak called her an "operative" in his column two years
           ago. Now he claims he just knew she was an "analyst." If so,
           why did he call her an operative, when he good and well knows
           the difference. Novak is lying to try and cover for Rove.
           http://csua.org/u/cr2
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38682 Activity:kinda low
7/16    Religion is strong. Faith is hot. A time of doubt for Atheists:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/atimeofdoubtforatheists (latimes)
        \_ No god worth believing in would have allowed such wankery to be
           published.
        \_ It's clear to me many years ago that the liberals are losing
           and the conservatives are kicking serious ass. When you can't
           beat them, you join them. From now on, I am claiming to be
           "spiritual" and I'm going to register as a Republican, short
           of actually voting for one. I will convert to Conservatism and
           repent later.                        -disillusioned motd troll
           \_ Cool, go for it.  In the meantime I'll pick up your share of
              laughing at all the fucking morons.  -John
        \_ Who is Faith?
           \_ http://www.inbedwithfaith.com (NWS)
              \_ Someone on the motd is very clearly a boob-man.
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38683 Activity:high
7/18    I deleted the whiner's thread.  I'd like to know the facts on this.  I
        can't see from the facts why people are upset at Rove, and I'm trying
        to figure this all out.
        \_ Your first sentence removes anyone from the obligation of listening
           to anything that you have to say.
        \_ Rove helped orchestrate the whispering campaign against McCain and
           was instrumental in making a triple-amputee war veteran look soft
           on defense. He's a dirty politics player, and he's truly lowered
           the tone of the game. This is simply the biggest thing anyone's
           come close to catching him on.
           \_ A couple of non sequiturs there.  I voted for McCain in the 2000
              primary and am now glad he lost, so if Rove helped him avoid the
              nomination, I'd like to shake his hand.  As for Cleland, being a
              triple-amputee doesn't make you immune against accusations of
              being soft on defense (because he was IMO).
              \_ Why are you glad McCain lost the 2000 primary?
                 \_ Ilyas got it in one.  McCain has shown himself to be
                    someone just looking for attention and quite handily gutted
                    the 1st amendment (with help from SCOTUS of course).
                    \_ If money is speech, would you allow paying people to
                       vote for your guy?
                       \_ Is an ad on TV speech?
                          \_ This is the issue in a nutshell. I can understand
                             why people would be inclined to consider an ad
                             speech. However, given the power of mass-
                             marketing these days and the advent of a
                             professional marketing class, I cannot in good
                             accept that a paid advertisement constitutes
                             speech any more than propaganda does. These highly
                             refined messages need regulation to help sort out
                             truth from blatant lies or we end up with Hearst-
                             esque yellow journalism and mass hysteria.
                             \_ How do you distinguish 'paid advertisement' from
                                any other kind? -- ilyas
                                \_ Because I have an unhealthy distrust of
                                   money and oligarchs.
                                   \_ Uh, I don't think you understood my
                                      question. -- ilyas
                                      \_ Sorry, read "why" for "how." Answer:
                                         not sure. Well-worth investigating
                                         further.
                                         \_ I think what I am trying to get at
                                            is not only all advertisement
                                            'paid,' but there is no clear line
                                            between advertisement and
                                            political speech in general.  I
                                            would much rather put up with
                                            unhealthy influence of money in
                                            politics than establish a pattern
                                            of government regulation of
                                            political speech.  A separate
                                            question worth thinking about is
                                            whether it is even possible to
                                            eliminate the influence of money
                                            from politics.  -- ilyas
                    \_ Your money does not get to vote. If you are allowed to
                       throw money around to purchase access to mass media to
                       broadcast catchy propaganda, the purpose of the 1st
                       Amendment becomes lost in the signal-to-noise ratio.
                       \_ To both of you:  is a web page speech?  Do you know
                          how McCain-Feingold affects a webpage?
              \_ I voted for McCain and REALLY wish he had won. Part of the
                 reason I liked McCain is b/c he doesn't go in for the kind
                 of stuff that the Bush camp implicitly supports (ex. Swift
                 Boat Vets) and he supported campaign finance reform (just
                 b/c you have more money doesn't mean your pov should be
                 preferred over other povs - think of this as reverse free
                 speech, you shouldn't be able to drown me out b/c you can
                 afford a bigger loudspeaker). Additionally, McCain wouldn't
                 have messed up the world as much as the Bush administration.
           \_ Yeah, I don't really understand what being an amputee has to do
              with having political clue in and of itself.  Re: McCain he
              probably doesn't like McCain's take on free speech. -- ilyas
        \_ Check out the wikipedia Rove article. Has some lesser known dirt.
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove
        \_ Your first sentence removes anyone from the obligation of listening
           to anything that you have to say.  Why should we listen to a censor?
           [restored]
        \_ Rove outed an undercover CIA agent to a reporter, or at the
           very least, confirmed this information so he could publish her
           name and ruin her career and risk everyone overseas who ever
           worked with her. Enough for you?
           \_ Sigh.  The email to Cooper was to discredit her husband, not her.
2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:38684 Activity:nil
7/18    Which angry conservative/libertarian deleted the Plame threads?
        Did the http://abcnews.com poll upset you?
        \_ Why do you assume it wasn't a liberal.  Restored. -emarkp
           \_ The assumtion was made because the threads were deleted after
              someone posted the http://abcnews.com poll.  Wasn't that pretty clear?
           \_ You're both wrong, a moderate deleted it.    -me, moderate
2005/7/18-19 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Recreation/Interesting] UID:38685 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
7/18    Cute little flash game: http://questfortherest.com
        \_ I wish this game puts in lives and deaths. I want to see players
           die with a lot of blood, and maybe decapitation, like
           Happy Tree Friends.
        \_ How do i play this game??
2005/7/18-19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Aspolito] UID:38686 Activity:low
7/18    work with aspo and brain and danh! It will be fun!
                /csua/pub/jobs/WaveMarket                       -brain
        \_ We also need black box qa people!  Know anyone "good with
           computers" but not a coder?  Make them happy, get them jobs! -aspo
        \_ Wait is 'working with danh and aspo' a positive endorsement?
           I mean aspo might try to seduce you, and danh will bury you in
           links involving shit and babies with no faces. -- ilyas
           \_ I don't try to seduce my coworkers.  I'm smarter than that.
           \_ It's not his fault, the lesbians make him do it.  -John
2005/7/18-19 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion] UID:38687 Activity:low
7/18    Juan Cole on abortion clinic bomber Eric Rudolph:
        http://csua.org/u/cqy
        \_ He's obviously biased, but I'm impressed by how his satirical
           parallels ring true.
           \_ What is the obsession with you people over BIAS?
              \_ Without bias, there is no current.  Without current, there
                 is no data, without data there is no thesis, without thesis
                 there is no graduation, and without graduation I am cursed to
                 troll the motd until eternity.
                 \_ This can happen after graduation.
                    \_ Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!
           \_ I mentioned it because I wanted people to actually look past
              the dry sarcasm and read the later (satirical) bit.  (I didn't
              post the original URL)  --dbushong
2005/7/18 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38688 Activity:nil 50%like:38680
7/18    DEAR JEWISH D00DZ ON MOTD! I TODALLY ADM1RE UR CULTURE, IM
        NOT A JEW SO A LOT UV THINGZ ARE SKREWED UP 1N MY FAMILY.
        MY FAMILY 1Z P00R, LA1K, MY PARENTZ ARE SPLIT, LA1K, MY DAD IZ
        ANALCOHOL1C + I DONT GET ALONG WITH MY DRUG ADD1CT BROTHUR. HOWEVUR I
        ALSO CONSIDUR MYSELF 2 B PRETTY LUCKY BECAUSE 1M THE FIRST IN MY FAM1LY
        2 GO 2 COLEGE + I GOT LOANZ THAT COVUR A MAJORITY UV MY
        EXPENSES, LA1K, THE REST 1 COVUR BY WORKING PART TIME HEAR + THEY'RE.
        1VE ALWAYZ SAID 2 MYSELF THAT IF 1 EVUR START A FAMILY UV MY OWN
        ID MAKE 1T A LOT BETTUR. ID MODEL MY FAMILY AFTUR K00L JEW1SH
        FAMILIES, 1 WANNA B AZ JEW AZ POSSIBLE, WHAT CAN I DO TO
        GET MORE EXPOSHUR 2 JEW1SH FAMILIES?!?1?!? CAN 1 GET ADOPTED, LA1K, OR
        B A NU CONVURT?!?1?!? I ADMIRE U, LA1K, + 1 WANT IN! I AM NOT
        TROL1NG, LA1K, IM BEING SUR1OUS,              -JEWORSHIPPUR
        \_ Hey, what about us Chinese?
           \_ Marry Connie Chung.  You get the best of both worlds.
        \_ You are trolling.
2005/7/18 [Uncategorized] UID:38689 Activity:high
7/18    Who is the "moderate" deleting the Plame threads?
        \_ They're not deleted. They're moved to the bottom to give lasting
           impressions to readers. You should thank whoever moved them.
           \_ Actually, whoever did it should have posted at top that they
              were moved to bottom.
2005/7/18 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38690 Activity:kinda low
7/18    I used to have a lot of rachmones, bubbala for ilyas because I
        thought he was a maven Russian Jew. Then I found out that he was
        just a Russian, WTF? Oy yoy yoy, hok a chainik. How kvetch. I feel
        fermisht, fershlugina. Meeskait ilyas fershtinkiner faygala gonif
        momzer, gai avek nebbish nudnik.
        \_ I think it's the Heil German John guy.
        \_ http://www.sbjf.org/sbjco/schmaltz/yiddish_phrases.htm
        \_ Ya i nye russkiy tozhe, mudak ty nye rezaniy. -- ilyas
           \_ what location in Russia re you from?
2005/7/18-19 [Politics/Foreign, Politics] UID:38691 Activity:nil
7/18    OMG LOL WTF: Rupert Murdoch's News Corp buys Myspace for $580m
        http://csua.org/u/cqz (telegraph.co.uk)
2005/7/18-19 [Health/Dental, Recreation/Food] UID:38692 Activity:nil
7/18    A chocolate a day will keep the doctor away.
        http://csua.org/u/cr0
        \_ But will a chocolate a day bring the dentist my way?
2005/7/18 [Health/Women] UID:38693 Activity:nil
7/18    Time to dispose of radical feminist pork
        http://townhall.com/columnists/phyllisschlafly/ps20050718.shtml
2005/7/18-19 [Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38694 Activity:nil
7/18    http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/fourth_generation_warfare.htm
        Good stuff on that website. -- ilyas
        \_ Hmm, that's an interesting site.  I'll have to read it through
           when I have more time.  Thanks for posting it, ilya.     -mice
2005/7/18-19 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media] UID:38695 Activity:kinda low Edit_by:auto
7/18    I'm looking for a real picture of the 60s girl who inspired the
        song Girl From Ipanema (Garota de Ipanema) by Astrud Gilberto
        and often sang by Jobim. I've heard that her old 60s picture
        was totally utterly completely hot and puts all the supermodels
        to shame, and that her grand-daughter is just as hot now, but
        I can't seem to find their pictures. Please help, thanks.
        \_ Search for Heloisa Pinheiro.
        \_ Share the fruits of your search with the motd.
        \_ I thought Girl From Ipanema was a Brazilian folk song that has been
           around for a while.
           \_ you thought wrong.  -tom
        \_ http://www.brazzilforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=54
           "The girl from Ipanema is called Heloisa Pinheiro and she's alive
           and well. In fact she's a highly bangable MILF, check her out."
        \_ You have it backwards. Jobim was one of the ones who wrote it,
           Gilberto performed it.
        \_ I once heard a recording over the radio which played "Girl from
           Ipanema" and Coltrane's "Take the A Train" in parallel, in the same
           key (F major).  It was cool.
           \_ Do you mean Ellington's "Take the A Train"?
              \_ Oops!  Ellington's it is.
        \_ http://nortemag.com/tom/publics/ela_carioca/e.ela_carioca.html
        \_ http://www.garotadeipanema.com.br/galeria.htm
        \_ http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/1437011.stm
2005/7/18-19 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:38696 Activity:nil
7/18    http://CNN.com breaking news:
        Retired Gen. William Westmoreland, who commanded American troops in
        Vietnam -- the nation's longest conflict and the only war America lost
        -- died tonight at age 91. The silver-haired officer contended the
        United States did not lose the conflict in Southeast Asia. "It's more
        accurate to say our country did not fulfill its commitment to South
        Vietnam," he said.
2017/09/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:July:18 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>