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| 2005/7/13-14 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:38589 Activity:low |
7/12 Any MUD afficianados around here? My buddy is teaching a class
to kids in "interactive fiction" and wants a MUD or mud like app that
- Easy and fun to learn. Presumably it is fun when you get a lot of
results for little effort.
- Can be played on the net via a java applet, so parents can play it
without installing anything
- Illustrations with the text -- some of the text adventure systems
allow you to include sound or
text, and that would be a fun thing to add to the story telling
aspect. I.e. here's a picture, write an adventure related to it.
Advise?
\_ Why do you want to ruin their lives? -phuqyu
\_ Why do you want to ruin their lives?
\_ Weren't aaron / danh pretty active with arctic? I also recall
sowings mucking with Genocide a lot a while ago. You have been
eaten by a grue. -John
\_ I played mume and sojourn once upon a day. Armageddon is
probably the best roleplaying mud on the net. You know, now that
I think of it, I am not sure there ARE muds for kids. Some
infocom games might be appropriate, but they are not multiplayer.
-- ilyas
I think of it, I am not sure there ARE muds for kids. -- ilyas
\_ You could port griljor to Java. Now _that_ would rock. -John
\_ Check out http://www.skotos.net It was a mud company when I worked
there, though it's branched out a bit in recent years. I'd
particularly recommend checking out the articles section:
http://www.skotos.net/articles
Skotos' games are fairly complex and aimed at older audiences so
they may not be the best thing for a class oriented towards kids,
but the articles have a lot of useful thought on game design in
general, and muds in particular. The articles might be useful food
for thought for an educator crafting a curriculum. I'd also
suggest taking a look at the single player interactive fiction
development tools. On the easy and fun to learn front, you might
consider rolling your own system in scheme or logo modelled after
the 61A interactive fiction project. -dans
\_ Oh yeah, now that I think of it, there was a lot of work done on
Crossfire (which, although not strictly a MUD, still incorporates
a lot of the elements of one.) For some names, take a look in
/csua/share/include/crossfire* -John
\_ I played mume and sojourn once upon a day. -- ilyas
\_ there is no /csua/share/include
\_ /csua/share/aliases.include. Sgt. Bobby Shaftoe says:
"Display some fucking adaptability". And man locate, you
Cal student, you. -John |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38590 Activity:low |
7/13 Those of you who are interested in the Gaza Strip/Israeli conflict,
here is an excellent site that shows you detailed information:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/gazastrip.html
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/gaza_strip_1999.jpg
FYI I got interested after the CNN article that says Israel is
closing Gaza Strip to 8000 resident, also home to 1.3 million
Palestinians. Before this I had no idea where and how big Gaza
Strip was and what the 6 Day War entailed. I can't believe how
much conflict can exist in a country that is [officially] barely 10
miles wide, and 40 miles wide if you count West Bank.
\_ Try reading the Old Testament Bible sometime.
\_ The northern and the southern parts are much wider than 10 miles.
\_ The northern and the southern parts are wider than 10 miles.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
\_ Remember what the French ambassador to England said: "this
international crisis causes by that shitty little country
Israel" -- it is amazing how a country so small with so few
people can cause so many problems. I guess we have all the
major world religions to thank for that, parking so many
holy sites on top of one another there ...
\_ "caused by that shitty little country, indeed." Ivory Coast,
Rwanda/Burundi, WWII (yes), Vietnam, and I guess he's not heard
of the Sykes-Picot agreement or the Suez crisis. The phrase
"you French twit" comes to mind. -John |
| 2005/7/13-15 [Recreation/Food] UID:38591 Activity:high |
7/13 Motd Diet Poll: M, for married, S for single, + w, for working,
s for student. Most of the time, you eat:
Fast food: Ss
Lots of Meat, Fat:
Lots of Meat (lean):
Balanced (grains,veggies,meat): Mw, Mw, Mw, Mw, Sw
Mostly Vegetables(or seafood): Ms, Mw, Sw
Vegetarian: Ssw, Mw
Vegan/raw foodie: Sw
I don't know what I eat:
\_ WTF happened to all the undergrads who eat nothing but fast food?
\- i used to eat bacon, fat slice, blondies and 99cent burgers.
however i had a super-fast metabolism then. i cant do that
any more. now my metabolism has become super-efficient and i
just eat 1.7 meals per day.
\_ Their fingers are too chubby to type
\_ But fast food is nutritious! Ilyas told me so, dammit!
\_ Why is it that right-wingers get so worked up fast food?
What the hell does fast food have to do with politics,
aside from the fact that Republicans tend to be fat and
lazy?
\_ I am a right-winger now? And I get worked up about
fast food? Are you one of those mental giants who
divide the world into two exhaustive and mutually
exclusive sets: People Who Think Like Me, and
Right-Wingers? -- ilyas
\_ I'm not worked up or right wing either -- I was
just poking mild fun at you. I wonder what made him
decide I'm a rightwingnut... -ilyas-is-nutritious-guy
\_ Gaaaah, I am NOT nutricious, you cannibal! You
stay away from me! -- ilyas
\_ Sounds like a bad 1970's era movie:
"Ilyas the Cannibal!!" -ilyas-is-nutritious guy
\_ 'Cause I'm an American dammit, and no pencil neck geek
should be telling me what to eat! Now, drug prohibition
on the other hand, that's ok.
\_ Fast food -> big chains -> big corporations ->
Republican.
Gourmet food -> local restaurants.
\_ Kiss my shiny metal ass. -- ilyas
\_ shouldn't this be "bite my ..."? |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Recreation/Dating, Science/Physics] UID:38592 Activity:high |
7/13 Color footage of Einstein:
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2673351
\_ obJewBaiting.
\_ The bastard is smart but is still a bastard. "His letters reveal a
tumultuous personal life, married twice and indifferent toward his
children while obsessed with physics. Yet he charmed lovers and
admirers with poetry and sailboat outings." What as ASSHOLE.
I guess you can say that he's extremely brilliant and contributed
greatly to mankind. He's also extremely horny and takes little
responsibility for women he fucks and children he created.
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/Newszine/health_science/5.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,153696,00.html
\_ Hey asshole. Why do you keep deleting all replies to your
frothing?
\_ I didn't delete them, I just unintentionally overwritten
them since I don't use motdedit or vi
\_ I didn't kill him, I just shot him in the head. Blame
the bullet.
\_ I think this kind of defense are actually used in
manslughter trials, sadly.
\-FYI: one of einstein's children operated out of ucbberkeley
\_ Frank Lloyd Wright did many of the same things: ignored
children, had mistresses, obsessed with his work. Are there
examples of geniuses who were consummate family men?
\_ Yes, but FLW wasn't a Jew, which I suspect is what is really
clamping froth-boy's nipples.
\_ Pablo Picasso was never called an asshole.
Not like you.
\_ is that a punk rock reference? you're so cool!
\_ It is much cooler to accuse someone of anti-semitism
on the basis of absolutely no evidence.
\- there is a somewhat famous example in moral
philosophy that looks at paul gaugain chosen
by bernard williams [now dead but formerly
ucb phil] on this point ... "does success excuse
not honoring some claims people have on you".
\_ iirc, Euler was a family man (twice married) but took care
of his kids, grandkids, &c.
Other examples from the top of my head: Bohr, Feynman,
Jefferson (and don't give me that crap about Jefferson's
slave kids, DNA testing shows that Jefferson's brother
was most likely the parent of the slave kids - Jefferson
gave his word to his wife when she died that there would
be no other women and Jefferson kept it).
Re Einstein - Two points:
(1) He is not a bastard as his parents were married at the
time of his birth.
(2) Even assuming the colloquial meaning of "bad person",
Einstein does not qualify. He may have been a distant
or less than ideal father (many non-genius fathers
fall into this category) but he never really neglected
his children. For example, he provided Mileva (wife 1)
and the children w/ all the money from his Nobel
prize. Also, he was basically separated from Mileva
when he started seeing Elza (wife 2). There is some
evid that he saw women on the side some years after
he married Elza but there is no proof that he fathered
any children w/ them (or that he dated anyone other
than Elza during his marriage).
\_ meh
\_ There was color movie back in 1943?
\_ Ever seen Wizard of Oz?
\_ This reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes where Calvin asks his
dad why old photos are always in black and white. |
| 2005/7/13 [Uncategorized] UID:38593 Activity:nil |
7/13 I read the top of motd as "Rove is planning to swap out scotch.CSUA..."
Too much frothing I guess. |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38594 Activity:low |
7/13 "I say give Karl Rove a medal, even if Bush has to fire him."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162335,00.html
\_ stop stomping.
\_ stop stomping other people's posts.
\_ That's as silly as giving George Tenet a medal ... Oh wait ... |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Recreation/Food/Alcohol, Recreation/Food] UID:38595 Activity:nil |
7/13 Coffee shop opens in Utah without coffee, cigarettes, or alcohols
because Mormons can't touch them:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162317,00.html
\_ I'd say that's totally gay, but Mormons don't like that either.
\_ Well, sell to your customers. It's not hard to get coffee and
alcohol in Utah if you want them. |
| 2005/7/13-15 [Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:38596 Activity:nil |
7/13 Does gmail crash Safari in OSX 10.3.9 for anyone else? This behavior
seems to have appeared just today, and is repeateable - Safari
I parsed this, as "post signed by safari@csua" _/
immediately exits after you login. |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38597 Activity:nil |
7/13 http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A28385-2003Jun24 One theory is that Miller is the leaker. My theory is that she works for the CIA on WMD, and that's why she knew Plame. \_ That's a stupid "theory." Actually, its a "wild assed guess," probably spread around in attempt at FUD. \_ The CIA does not use journalist as a cover except in extreme circumstances. New York City does not qualify. |
| 2005/7/13-15 [Uncategorized] UID:38598 Activity:nil 61%like:38555 |
7/13 Scotch coming down tonight after 7pm. Read the official motd. - jvarga |
| 2005/7/13-15 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:38599 Activity:low |
7/13 Info about the 2006 Civic Hybrid:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/07/information_abo.php
Verdict - Not as k3w1 as a Prius but not bad
\_ Crap! You know why? because it's still a fucking car. Make a
car that comsumes only trash, emits a sweet smelling mixture of
oxygen and pure gold, and I'll still say it's crap because cars
will always suck ass. Making them pollute less is just a distraction
from their infinite suckage.
\_ Where is my Odessey Hybrid or Sienna Hybrid???
\_ Look, they can use whatever fancy shmacy engine all they want
but the fact of the matter is if their bottom line sucks then
no one is going to buy their shit. When I say bottom line, I
mean mileage, cost, and usefulness. If they can't get better
mileage [than a Prius], lower price, and at lease same
capacity then people will not buy their crap. Until Honda
understands this, their Hybrid Civic will just sit in
the dealer lot like they are doing now. -Honda Owner, Disillusioned
\_ And the fact that they waited so long after Prius came out
to produce their new Civic shows that they're way behind
Toyota in hybrid technology. The new and improved Prius is
coming out soon, which means whatever minor incremental gain
Civic has over Prius will be only be short lived. -pp
\_ What's different about this "new" hybrid Civic from the
"old" hybrid Civic?
\_ The article OP posted describes the differences.
\_ "Biggest novelty probably is that during light crusing the engine
shuts down and the car can be powered by the electric motor alone.
This is not quite like the Prius, which can use electricity only
from a complete stop and travel relatively long distances at
moderate speed on battery alone, but it's a step forward." I don't
get it. Is it saying that the Prius way (being able to use
electricity only from a complete stop) is better then Civic way?
Why?
\_ Maybe they mean "which can use 'electricity only'", meaning
the Prius is still more advanced.
\_ Oops! Pardon my reading comprehension.
\_ Notice Honda keeps talking about how good their engine while
Toyota talks about a COMPLETE redesign, from new frames to
extremely good aerodynamic fairings to the integrated
electro/gas system. If you compare the HP output between the
Prius and the current Civic, you'll see that the Civic is
still primarily a gasoline powered car (over 85%) while the
Prius balances power between the engine and the motor. This
is the same with Honda Accord, where they get their
efficiency primarily through their efficient engine. In
another word, the Prius is a truly hybrid car, whereas the
Honda hybrid is still primarily a gasoline powered car. And
with Toyota's employee and R&D size that is easily 3-4X size
of Honda, it is understandable why Toyota is kicking ass.
Toyota to Honda is like Intel to Cyrix.
\_ well, they're both "primarily a gas powered car"
\_ but toyota will never be an elite rice car |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign, Computer/SW/Security, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:38600 Activity:nil |
7/13 http://csua.org/u/cp6 (findlaw.com) "Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both." ... so, what do you think? I don't see "name" in the above, just "identifies", so I guess it depends on what the meaning of "identifies" is. A lot of it is also intent and foreknowledge. \_ Rove's claim that "I didn't know her name" is totally irrelevant. Identifying someone as "his wife" uniquely establishes her identity, except possibly in Utah. |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38601 Activity:moderate |
7/13 So Molly Ivins makes another mistake in her retraction (but to her
credit she did retract it):
http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/23493
She claims: "The high-end estimate of Iraqi civilian deaths in this war
is 100,000, according to a Johns Hopkins University study published in
the British medical journal The Lancet last October, but I was sticking
to the low-end, most conservative estimates because I didn't want to be
accused of exaggeration."
But the study she's citing didn't determine whether people who died
were civilians or not, right?
\_ No. it didn't. It studied Iraqi deaths. period. Thus, the number
includes Iraqis who normally would have died of natural causes.
\_ What the hell is the "Lancet"? I've never heard of it, and I'm
pretty sure I've heard of everything. This sounds like something
only NERDS have heard of. Is that a TV show?
\_ No. it didn't. It studied Iraqi deaths. period. But the 98k
estimate was extra-deaths beyond those Iraqis who normally would
have died of natural causes, estimated excluding Falluja deaths.
Additionally, the study concluded 98,000(iirc) deaths during the
time period studied (approx. the first year or so). IOW,
currently, the death count should be about ~200k. -nivra
currently, the death count should be about ~140k. -nivra
\_ First, I'd like to thank you for correcting my (mistaken)
objections the the Lancet study's statistics. Second, I don't
objections wrt the Lancet study's statistics. Second, I don't
think it's reasonable to do a linear extrapolation to 200K now.
-emarkp
\_ Oops. My original extrapolation showed 140k deaths - straight
proportion from iraqbodycount. I pulled 200k out of my ass.
FWIW, here are deaths from IraqBodyCount: -nivra
up till 3/20/03: 4221 - 5406 (major combat operations)
3/21/03 - 9/20/04: 11740 - 12908 (up thru lancet study)
9/21/04 - 7/02/05: 6877 - 7555 (post-lancet study)
\_ I agree with nivra - Ivins misinterprets the report.
But, her 20K number may actually be accurate:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database
It's too bad the military doesn't record this data, or there might
be a list of civilian deaths caused by U.S. action in descending
order, sortable by military ID and COs. E.g., PFC x is responsible
for 5 confirmed civilian deaths along with 10 confirmed kills,
LTG y is responsible for this many and that many for all under his
or her command. The military loves data, normally.
\_ Hardly. 20k, no matter which way you hack it, is grossly under-
estimating. Most of this has been hashed out between emarkp and
I in the past, but the lancet study is accurate, if not precise.
So use their low end confidence numbers(eg. from the first
quartile). if you want, that still gives you over 2x the number
dead. -nivra
\_ Yeah, I should rewrite that to "20K number may actually be
accurate as a low-end figure for civilian deaths caused by
both insurgent attacks and coalition activity"
both insurgent and coalition activity"
\_ Ok, I looked up the kais motd thread:
http://csua.com/?entry=38205
At 75% confidence, you can state there have been 108k
Iraqi deaths since the war started. At 90% confidence,
you can state there have been 65k Iraqi deaths since the
war started. (Again, estimates do not include Falluja
deaths due to massive outlier status)
\_ Yeah, yeah, I know. The Lancet report talks about total
extra deaths including combatants and civilians as you
noted. I'm talking about 20K as a low-end figure for
civilians only.
Even that 20K number is probably a lot higher, but
we're talking low-end, and civilians only, right.
Anyways, I know pro-war people would have big issues
with lumping in deaths caused by insurgent bombs too.
\-the only think worse than listening to unfunny and
fat molly ivins is listening to unfunny and fat
jeaninnie garafolo. |
| 2005/7/13 [Uncategorized] UID:38602 Activity:high |
7/13 http://ifuckedanncoulterintheasshard.blogspot.com |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:38603 Activity:low |
7/13 Just out of curiosity, who's the fanatic motd spammer? I'm not so
interested in the politics of it, but it just somehow reminds me of the
random guy in SF yelling about UFOs. -John
\_ finger jblack!
\_ Yeah, I have, and his .plan is one of someone who's very, uh,
convinced, but it doesn't indicate total insane wacko. -John
\_ 12 GALAXIES!!
\_ According to Tom Holub they are jblack, reiffin, crebbs, and ecchang
\_ [Don't name random names if you don't know what you're talking
about. Thanks.] |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:38604 Activity:moderate |
7/13 There's a lot we don't know yet about the CIA flap
http://hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/Comment/ByronYork/071405.html
\_ We do know that this guy is a National Review hack, however.
\_ If you don't know what "being obtuse" is, here it is.
[restored by !poster. fuck off, deleter]
\_ I deleted my own post because I didn't think it was as accurate
as I would have liked. It's maybe about 80% "being obtuse".
\_ A lot of those questions have been answered. For instance
Judith Miller was drawn into the case via phone records.
\_ I stopped reading when he didn't acknowledge that the signed waivers
were coerced and thus not authentic releases. What's the strongest
evidence of this? Matthew Cooper didn't spill until he got an
explicit release from Rove, and at the last minute too.
\_ I don't think this true. Karl Rove's attorney has denied
that Rove has contacted Cooper recently. Rover did sign
a blanket waiver a while ago letting any reporter discuss
all this crap. I think it's not really clear why Cooper
suddenly said Rove is his source, it could be for
a variety of reasons, maybe he just didn't feel like going
to jail for 18 months to protect Karl Rove. - danh
This is an opinion piece supporting Rove which dodges essential
facts like the above.
\_ FUD from the National Review. How uncharacteristic of them. |
| 2005/7/13-15 [Uncategorized] UID:38605 Activity:nil |
7/13 Interview with Frank Herbert and Beverly Herbert from 1969:
http://www.sinanvural.com/seksek/inien/tvd/tvd2.htm
\_ Why are you posting this now?
\_ I don't know why whomever posted that did it but the
interview is damned interesting in spots. |
| 2005/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38606 Activity:high |
7/13 25 years! Jacques de Molay, you are avenged!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4680221.stm
\- if i were king, i would approve.
\_ Partha, you will always remain our Once and Future motd king.
\_ You can't imagine how depressed it makes me to realize psb
turned out to to have a soul of a small time oriental despot.
-- ilyas
\- i guess STALIN makes POL POT look small time? although
if you measure in terms of fraction of your country
killed, mr. pot does pretty well. you may also wish to
see the War of the Triple Alliance.
see War of the Triple Alliance.
\_ I think the only distinction between Pol Pot and
Stalin was that Stalin was placed in a position
where a wider application of power was possible,
not any sort of tangible moral difference. -- ilyas
\- i wasnt not talking about moral difference.
i was a little surprised pol pot is considered
"small time" in ilyas world. BTW, i think you
are misunderstanding my somewhat tongue in cheek
comment about pol pot. but i am touched my your
disillusionment with me. --psb
\_ Well, I asked you once if you were kidding.
You said you weren't. Are you tongue in cheek
or not? Words mean things, etc. -- ilyas
\- roughly this is what i mean: if i were a
absolute despot, i think i would be
inclined to somewhat arbitrarily punish
people whose lifestyles i disapproved of.
this doesnt mean people who wear glasses
or engage in sodomy or other thing violating
dogmatic views of morality but people i
consider decadent. spending $6000 on a
shower curtain would merit punishment.
\_ Well, that might make you better than
Pol Pot or Stalin, who had somewhat broader
tests for applications of power. On the
other hand, to paraphrase someone I know,
who are you to tell me how big a car I
should drive or how big the breasts of my
wife should be, etc? Is this grounded in
aesthetics for you or what? -- ilyas
\_ So when's the marriage to Linsey
Dawn McKenzie, ilyas?
\_ What is this person famous for,
other than having large boobs?
\_ Use google and find out!
\_ What's it like to go through life
without a sense of humor?
\_ I asked him twice if he is joking
or not. I don't think he's joking
anymore, I think he really would
put 'plutocrats' and 'degenerates'
to the torch. The joke's on you.
-- ilyas
\_ hey, you just stomped on dan's
post, and you use vi.
\- i didnt say degenerates
or plutocrats. i wouldnt have
bill gates killed. i would
have the decadent punished
not preverts and all rich
people. trump gets put in
concrete and urinated upon.
bill gates just gets anti-
trust enforcement. --psb
\_ Anyways, sense of humor
guy, I await your apology.
(Btw, sorry for stomping
your post dan, if it was
me). -- ilyas
\- i think you are lacking
a sense of humor about
this too. but maybe it
is because you have
some trauma associated
with growing up in
russia? i can understand
somebody from cambodia
not thinking this is a
good way to make a point
\_ Look partha, I am going
to put this as kindly
as I can. Why have you
been yanking my chain
for 2 threads now?
Is this how you troll?
If you claim to be
serious then I assume
you are, and sense of
humor is not an issue.
I guess what I learned
today is I can't take
any answer of yours
seriously, which is
also kind of
depressing. This
whole "I was joking
after all" thing is
pure wankery on your
part, imo. -- ilyas
\-was not intending
to yank your chain.
although now i am
sort of amused.
i think it is an
interesting state
of affiars to say
that i would get
more milage out of
punishing people
than say looting
the country if i
were given the
keys to the kingdom.
do you love pushkin? |
| 2005/7/13-15 [Transportation/Car] UID:38607 Activity:low |
7/13 Top ten movie car chases:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/12/Autos/funonwheels/car_chases/index.htm
\_ Fuck all car chases, and fuck all cars. A car chase can ruin a whole
movie. I had to walk out of Ronin because of its endless car chase.
What the fuck is the matter with people that they like watching
people drive around? If you want to watch people drive around,
you can do that anytime, anywhere. Why not list the all time
best movie scenes where someone takes a shit in real time?
\_ Don't forget the guns. -John
\_ What about the guns?
\_ Any self-respecting car chase needs serious guns.
\_ There've been versions of this list before. Anything without
The French Connection is bunkum. Where Eagles Dare gets
honorable mention. -John
\_ Of course, The Bourne Supremacy chase would have been better if the
cinematography hadn't been in handheld-vomit-inducing-cam. |
| 2005/7/13-15 [Computer/SW/Apps, Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:38608 Activity:nil |
7/14 what is some OCR software for OSX that doesn't suck? - danh
\_ I hear the super-expensive Acrobat is good, but if you find
a cheaper quality alternative, please let me know. -brett
\_ I've used Photoshop + Acrobat to OCR magazine articles and
papers and found that it works pretty well. If you want to
save some money buy a copy of Acrobat v6. --ranga |
| 5/17 |