Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:July:08 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2005/7/8-10 [Transportation/Bicycle] UID:38475 Activity:low
7/7     This guy is like Tom Holub the fanatic biker except he's more
        interesting:   http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/HPVlog
        \_ Hmmm, when I saw "HPV," "human powered vehicle" was definitely NOT
           the first thing that came to mind.
           \_ What what that then?
           \_ What was that then?
              \_ Google HPV and see what comes up.
                 \_ Heh.  And I thought pp was thinking of
                    http://www.agilent.com/find/vee
                 \_ Ha ha!  I see.
2005/7/8-10 [Uncategorized] UID:38476 Activity:nil
7/8     Cool solar panels. Click reload to see new pictures:
        http://www.powerlight.com
        \_ Are these panels more efficient than the old ones?  What's the
           dollar cost to watt ratio?
2005/7/8-12 [Reference/BayArea] UID:38477 Activity:nil
7/8     Friend and I (late 20's guys) looking for some nice billiards/pool
        places in the South Bay to hangout.  Best if the places are not filled
        with gangsters and have a good guys-girls ratio of the early 20's to
        mid 30's crowd.  Got any recommendations?
        \_ If there's is only one activity that is associated with
           high society, that would be golf. If there is only one activity
           that is associated with low society, that would be billiard.
           \_ I would say that your generalization is rather ignorant. Try
              again, kid.
        \_ I think your second sentence pretty much rules them all out.
           \_ Pool hall with good ratio?  AND in the South Bay?  You'd be lucky
              to have either.
        \_ I like Shoreline Billiards in Mountain View.  You see mostly
           professionals there instead of high school gangster-wannabe
           kids.  And decent looking girls.  Plenty of girls shoot pools
           there before and after their work out in the Gold's Gym next
           door.
        \_ Not South Bay, but Bay Billiards in Fremont isn't bad.
2005/7/8 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:38481 Activity:nil
7/8     Anybody use PGP mobile (from http://pgp.com) for PalmOS?  How is it?  It
        doesn't seem to support the "encrypted virtual disk" feature like
        on the PGP desktop versions.  I'm wondering if that's even possible
        under PalmOS.  I have files on my PC that I dump into the PGP disk.
        I want to take that PGP disk (just a file actually) and view it
        on a Palm PDA.  Is that possible?  http://pgp.com discontinued their pgp
        mobile product.  Note that file-by-file encryption is not practical.
        I don't want to do this manually one by one.  Thanks.
        [reposted; not sure why it was deleted -thanks]
2005/7/8-10 [Uncategorized] UID:38482 Activity:high
7/8     Which would you prefer? Sharing an (nicer?) office with someone, or
        in a (smaller?) cubicle by yourself?
        cubicle: ..
        office: .
        \_ As long as I get my privacy.  We just moved into a new place, and
           although I got a corner office, my office-mate is looking right at
           me about 6 feet away.
           Cubes with 4 foot walls bite, but I'll deal as long as everyone my
           salary level gets one.
           Cubes with 6 foot walls are okay in my book as long as they have
           at least 3 walls.
        \_ Having done both, I'd rather have a place by myself. Not asked,
           but I prefer a cubicle with a window to an office with a door,
           but without a window, too.
        \_ Which one has more clout in the company?
2005/7/8-10 [Recreation/House] UID:38483 Activity:nil
7/8     What exactly is a paint primer? I know it is something you put on
        before painting a real coat. Is it a thick coat of clear paint
        that covers up little holes? Or is it pure white so that it covers
        up imperfections on the surface?
        \_ No, it is more like whitewash. It is a cheaper coat that helps
           the paint stick.
        \_ Primer is a paint that has better adhesion capabilities. It
           can be tinted any color, although it is usually white or gray if
           you don't have it tinted. It does help the paint stick and
           can help provide better color saturation, but primarily its
           bonding characteristics with the unpainted surface are why it
           is used.
            \_ Home Depot sells paint that says "primary not needed." Are those good?
               How about automobile paint shops, do they use primers? How do they make
               the surface shinny?
            \_ Home Depot sells paint that says "primary not needed." Are those
               good? How about automobile paint shops, do they use primers?
               How do they make the surface shinny?
               \_ It depends on the surface you're painting on whether primer
                  is necessary; if you're painting on metal, it's probably a
                  good idea to use primer even if the paint says no primer
                  needed. The shiny surface is just some number of glossy
                  clear coats.  -tom
               \_ Auto body shops do use primer, but it's not why the
                  surface is glossy. I suggest you avoid Home Depot and
                  go to a real paint store. If you use primer you will
                  always get the best results whether it was 'necessary'
                  or not.
2005/7/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:38484 Activity:moderate
7/8     I'm having a tough time understanding why someone would want to plant
        a bomb in a train, bus, &c. to kill random ppl (I'm assuming that this
        was not an assassination). To me it seems like you could better spend
        you time taking out strategic targets (perhaps random people are
        strategic targets, and I just don't get it).
        Can someone recommend a book (or other src) that might explain the
        psychology/strategy behind this type of activity? tia.
        \_ That's why it's called TERRORism.  Spread panic, make people think
           "it can happen to you".  It's known as hitting "soft targets", which
           are more difficult to defend without impeding everyone's daily life,
           and strategic targets require more resources & planning.  -John
           \_ Let's be serious, there is no clear definition of the word
              "terrorism."  Afgan's mujahedeem is a prime example.  When
              they were fighting the Soviets in the 1980s, we call them
              "freedom fighter."  Now, we call them "terrorist."  The word
              "terrorism" is similar to the word "counter-revolutionay"
              in both meaning and its context.  It is a purposely vague
              word to accuse those who in power think need to be dealt with.
        \_ Compare the costs of trying to protect the entire nation from
           terrorist strikes compared to a few key buildings and government
           officials.  The terrorists want to take down the US/Western
           economies.  It's relatively cheap to protect the President compared
           to securing every port, train, airport, bridge, etc.
        \_ It probably changed the outcome of the election in Spain, even
           though that was more because the outgoing party pretended it wasn't
           al Qaeda and blamed Basque separatists instead.
           \_ an in that respect the people of spain rewarded the terrorists
              and probably inspired them to repeat it in London.
              \_ how can you re-elect people caught a couple days before a
                 close election in a glaring lie?  Practically speaking.
                 \_ Works for the Bush administration
        \_ They're fighting a democracy.  The 'terror' bombings  are not
           militarily significant.  That's not the goal. The goal is to make
           the people try to persuade their government to pull out.  If this
           works to that end, it'll only embolden the terrorists to do more.
           \_ You think the bombing was by/in the name of Iraqis?
             \_ whether it really was or not, the al queda group that claimed
                responsibility said as much.
        \_ Sometimes this sort of thing works. Most of the time, when the
           goal is to drive out a foreign invader. See Algeria vs. France,
           Isreal vs. Britain, Vietnam vs. USA or any number of colonial wars.
           Israel vs. Britain, Vietnam vs. USA or any number of colonial wars.
           \_ The only good examples here is Vietnam--other pullouts were due
              to intl. (mainly US) pressure; France had actually pretty much
              won in Algeria, but public anger over the activities of the OAS
              brought down the government.  -John
              \_ Depends on whose history book you read I guess:
                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War_of_Independence
                 According to wikipedia, the French had already agreed to
                 the referendum that eventually granted Algeria independence
                 before the OAS's terror campaign. In any case, the Algerians
                 successfully won their independence and terror was a big
                 tactic that they used to gain it.
                 \- advisory: Battle of Algiers is an interesting movie.
              \_ Here is my question of the day to you, John:
                 What is the difference between Nazi's occupation of France
                 versus French occupataion of Algeria and so-called
                 "Indo-China?"
                 \- A better example might be US & Japan/Germany vs
                    US and Philippines. War time and post-conflict
                    occupations are not quite the same as "normalized"
                    colonial relations. I think you need to frame what
                    kind of "differences" you are interested in other
                    wise envrythign risks being sui generis. I dont find
                    this a great book, but Michael Watlzer's "Just and
                    Unjust Wars" goes into a lot of detail about some
                    issues that have cropped up in the MOTD lately.
                    Actually it might be worth reflecting on whether
                    the Soviet Union has "colonies" ... since those occupations
                    were of much longer duration than the germans in france.
        \_ The shift to non-symbolic (non-government/financial/corporate)
           targets reflects the changed nature of AQ. Command and control from
           post-Afghan invasion AQ is limited. The attacks on Madrid and London
           were by groups inspired by AQ, not AQ itself. The incidents were not
           suicide attacks and there are reports that some devices didn't go
           off (lack of experience). My guess is these attacks are ego and
           vengence driven. These are announcements of group existence and
           designed to promote fear as opposed to forcing real political or
           idealogical change. This is the work of Angry Young Men.
           ideological change. This is the work of Local Angry Young Men, not
           foreign terrorists shipped in to do a job.
           \- it's funny you should use the expression "angry young men"
              w.r.t. to the *london* bombing.
2005/7/8-10 [Science/Space, Recreation/Food] UID:38485 Activity:high
7/8     Cut global warming by becoming vegetarian:
        http://www.physorg.com/news4998.html
        \_ Cut global warming with eco-friendly investments:
           http://www.terrapass.com
           \_ How does one know that the money we pay on purchasing these
              passes actually goes to projects that reduce pollution, and these
              projects actually have big enough of an impact to offset our
              cars' pollutant output?
              \_ Good question, and I don't have a good answer. I suppose you
                 could argue that you have a contract with them, so they're
                 obligated to follow-through.
        \_ Cut global warming by turning off the water when you apply soap in
           the middle of a shower.  This saves water as well as the energy
           needed to heat it.
           \_ Not eating 1 pound of western beef saves more water than not
              showering for 1 year, assuming 7 minute showers once per day
              with a low flow shower head.  "Raising one cow uses enough
              water to float a destroyer"
              \_ Just shooting yourself as soon as possible saves more water
                 and energy and cute little bacteria that you'd otherwise
                 spend your life stompin' on than you can possibly imagine.
                 I'll take mine medium rare, thanks.  -John
              \_ Uh, this is really poorly phrased.  Not eating 1 pound of
                 beef doesn't save anything.  That cow is still raised.
                 \_ Have you ever heard of supply & demand?  Buying and
                    tossing one pound of beef doesn't do anything, true.
                    However, choosing to purchase less beef directly affects
                    demand, which will in turn affect supply.
              \_ Are you serious???  Reference please?  Thx.
                 \_ John Robbins Food Revolution, which had extensive
                    footnotes in that section.  Note that it takes a lot
                    more water to raise cattle in the arid west, which is
                    why I said *western beef*.  Here is a webpage that
                    discusses the topic (took me about 5 seconds with google):
                    http://www.vegsource.com/articles/pimentel_water.htm
                    Another one:
                      http://www.gentleworld.org/environment/environment.html
                    Oh look more:
                    http://www.farnellfamily.com/cfarnell/why/uses.html
                    Note that producing beef in arid climates takes more
                    than 2500 gallons/pound.
              \_ Don't eat fruits either. Raising one plum tree uses
                 enough water to float a destroyer. We should eat only
                 cactus.
                 \_ Whatever
                    \_ Whatever indeed. Focus on one aspect of farming
                       (cattle) and ignore the rest.
                       \_ I think the pp was focusing on the fact that
                          raising 1 pound of meat consumes a lot more
                          water than raising 1 pound of fruit/vegetable:
                          http://www.vegsource.com/articles/factoids.htm
                          \_ Ah yes this is the exact reference
                       \_ The issue is not whether farming uses water.
                          Raising beef just uses orders of magnitude more
                          water for the same nutrional content.  So one
                          water for the same nutritional content.  So one
                          way to be environmental is not to eat beef, simple.
                          \_ Right. Another way is to eat only cactus and
                             not water-loving plants like rice and fruit.
                             Or, like John said, shoot yourself.
                             \_ can you be more disengenous? from the above
                                link: water req'd for 1 lb. of apples: 49
                                that's two orders of magnitude
                                less than the amt. req'd for beef.  Eating
                                cactus vs. apples counts for nothing compared
                                to the simple act of not eating beef. -!pp, !op
                                \_ How much protein is in those apples?
                                   If you want to grow, say, soy beans
                                   it take 250 gallons per pound. I find
                                   all of these sorts of arguments
                                   disingenuous. Eat healthy. That means
                                   some meat (but not a lot) in the diet.
                                   Avoiding 1 lb of beef per week (say)
                                   to substitute with 1 lb of apples is
                                   beyond stupid. There are other factors,
                                   too, like cooking, transportation (beef
                                   needs freezing), pesticides, and so on.
                                   Framing in terms of gallons/pound is
                                   meaningless and idiotic.
                                   \_ No it's not, it tells us how much water
                                      beef takes.  It also takes more of many
                                      other resources such as fuel and space.
                                      Why is disingenuous to look at the amount
                                      of resources a certain diet takes?  Meat
                                      eating simply uses way more resources.
                                      Now whether or not that matters to you
                                      is a different issue, isn't it?
                                      \_ The point here is that water
                                         usage is not defined in a vacuum.
                                         Looking at how much water a cow
                                         drinks versus how much water a tree
                                         needs is not too informative in
                                         itself. So much more is involved in
                                         growing, preparing, transporting,
                                         and storing the foods. Is that
                                         gallons/pound number derived by adding
                                         in how many gallons it takes to grow
                                         feed or is it just what the cow
                                         drinks? How much of that water is
                                         taken of the water cycle and in what
                                         way? What other factors are involved?
                                   \_ strawman. What you find disingenuous is
                                      not a claim anyone made.  It's idiotic
                                      to replace one lb. of beef w/ one lb. of
                                      apples.  The gallons/apple was made to
                                      refute above trolls nonsense about fruit
                                      trees.
                                      \_ What do you mean? If you don't eat
                                           fruit you can save a lot of water.
                                   \_ Then replace one pound of beef with
                                      beans, or whatever combination of
                                        non-MEAT vegetables/fruits diet you
                                           desire.  None of them will use as
                                           much water to create the same
                                      desire.  None of them will use remotely
                                      as much water to create the same
                                      nutrition, and you know that.
                                      \_ I am not sure 'energy' = 'nutrition'.
                                         Maybe if we were herbivores it would
                                         make more sense. There are indeed
                                         lots of drawbacks to farming, fishing,
                                         and so on. Looking at water use is
                                         some sort of feel-good bullshit.
                                         I can say it takes no (fresh) water to
                                         raise a tuna. Therefore eat only
                                         tuna and no apples.
                      \_  Don't forget all the water that is required to
                          maintain a healthy green lawn that no one ever
                          uses.
                          \_ http://www.backyardstyle.com/watering-guide.php
                             The average lawn uses 125 g/1000 sq. ft on a hot,
                             summer day.  That's .8 oz. of beef/1000 sq. ft
                             during peak summer weather. Certainly, it helps
                             to reduce lawn watering, but compared to eating
                             beef, it's peanuts.
                             \_ How much water do spotted owls waste?
        \_ 1) Read an excerpt or two from the jungle, or watch a couple
              shorts about animal treatment, esp. re: antibiotics, hormones,
              etc.
           2) Next time you purchase raw meat at the grocers, look at the
              meat, and remember (1) above.
           3) Go and buy some vegetables.  -!op
             \_ How many rabbits are chopped up in the combine harvesters?
                Better avoid bread.
                \_ When the other side can come up only with pedantic crap,
                   that's a safe bet you've won the argument.
        \_ So saying "you should avoid X to conserve Y" is a poor long-term
           plan: if water is actually a scarce resource, it should be expensive,
           and thus the beef should be expensive.  If there's some reason it
           isn't (government subsidies, perhaps?), the subsidies should end.
           There's no reason the free market can't solve this problem... if
           there is one.  If there isn't, who cares how "wasteful" meat
           production is?  People aren't starving in the world because the US
           doesn't produce enough food.
2005/7/8-10 [Uncategorized] UID:38486 Activity:nil
7/8     Turns news into living art.
        http://www.marumushi.com/apps/newsmap/newsmap.cfm
        \_ tres cool. tnx
2005/7/8-10 [Uncategorized] UID:38487 Activity:nil
7/8     For audio and recording geeks: Nanotech drum "pickups" may make drum
        mic'ing a thing of the past:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4637203.stm
2005/7/8 [Uncategorized] UID:38488 Activity:high
7/8     http://sports.yahoo.com/golf
        "Michelle Wie carded four birdies in her first nine holes ..."
        Birdies and her holes, oooh.
        \_ get a life.  -tom
        \_ Dude, she's *15* years old.
           \_ But she'll be legal in three months.
           \_ But she has already had four birdies in her holes.
        \_ She's not that cute. You want cute athletes? Check out female
           tennis players, especially the ones from eastern europe.
2005/7/8-9 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:38489 Activity:low
7/8     It's been a while since the freeper guy posted anything. Where
        is he and why isn't he trolling?
        \_ The freeper guy is dead.  Long live jblack.
2005/7/8-9 [Recreation/Dating] UID:38490 Activity:very high
7/8     Michelle Wie poll. "a" if you're Asian, "w" if White, "b" if Black,
        "h" if Hispanic, "." for anonymous, so on and so forth:
        She's cute: waww
        She's not cute: aw
        She's looks like an ugly Asian Amazonian woman: a
        She's 6-feet tall and will smash in your face with a 5-iron: a
        She's ok: waaw
        ok, WouldKHooBfEC: w
        \_ isn't this == "not cute"?
           \_ I don't think so.  It means she's attractive, just not
              REALLY attractive.
              \_ I believe the term you're looking for is ``I wouldn't kick
                 her/him/it out of bed for crackers.'' -dans
                 \_ I think its "...out of bed for EATTING crackers."
                 \_ I thought this implied fairly hot.
                    \_ No, just not repulsive enough to turn down if the
                       opportunity presented itself.
                       \_ Repulsive enough? I'd rather do myself than any
                          degree of repulsive chick. Unless, perhaps, it was
                           only her personality that was repulsive...
                       \_ Look, it depends on how annoyed you get over crumbs
                          in the bed, but it obviously means "hotter than
                          a girl you wouldn't have sex with just cause she
                          annoyed you".  Wie is attractive enough to sleep
                          with, but she *would* get kicked out of bed for
                          eating crackers. Now, if the chick is REALLY hot you
                          can append "even if crackers was the family dog". -phuqm
              \_ Isn't that what "cute" means: "attractive, just not
                 REALLY attractive"?
                 \_ Apparently 3 people disagree.
              \_ Either she's cute or not, how hard is that?
                 \_ it's impossible because English doesn't work like that.
                    there is a middle ground which is not covered by either
                    statment unless you qualify it.
        She's 15 you perv: w
        \_ 15 with a fully-developed chest:
           http://www.golftodaymagazine.com/0409sep/images/11-Michelle_Wie.jpg
           \_ pedophile!
           \_ how do you know it won't develop more?
           \_ If she were my daughter you'd have to contend with my
              fully-developed boot up your ass.
           \_ What the hell's on her forehead?
2005/7/8-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:38491 Activity:nil
7/8     Mann Report on "liberalism" of PBS is a joke:
        http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050718&s=blumenthal
2005/7/8-9 [Uncategorized] UID:38492 Activity:low
7/8     Sheep owners lose sheep because they committed suicide. They
        should've bought sheep insurance:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/turkey_sheep_suicide
        \_ Yeah, um, fire those shepherds.
        \_ wtf? Self-survival must've been bred out of them.
2005/7/8-12 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Health/Women] UID:38493 Activity:nil
7/8     Cycle mania in Brittain:
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050708/od_nm/britain_cycles_dc
        \_ This is too cool:  http://www.addisonlee.com/taxybikes.html
           A lot of friends of mine have taken to these (Virgin also had
           something similar called a limoucycle or bikousine)  -John
2005/7/8-9 [Uncategorized] UID:38494 Activity:high
7/8     RHENQUIST resigns.
        link:csua.org/u/cnl
        \_ Is this the danh?
2005/7/8-12 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid, Transportation/Motorcycle] UID:38495 Activity:moderate
7/8     Check this out, eco-mobile going 200MPH and 55MPG. It's a motorcycle
        with sleek fairings. Make sure to check out the videos!
        http://www.peraves.ch
        \_ I've seen these around Zurich; they're street legal here.  They
           look tremendously cool--the little training wheels retract into
           the fairings at low speeds.  They cost between $50k-$70k.  But for
           some fun, read http://www.peraves.ch/monot.htm and ask yourself if
           you belong to the group of "buyers in circumstances found suitable
           by personal contact".  It sounds more arrogant in German.  -John
           \_ I think this probably means they only want famous or
              influential people buying their products (no sale to engineers)
           \_ Driven by people who look like would-be-Porsche-[old]-owners?
              \_ Now that you mention it, the guys I've seen driving this all
                 did look like distinguished 50-ish executive types.  Or it
                 could just mean they want to make sure you have the cash to
                 pay for it.  -John
                 \_ Interesting. I once saw an ad on I-60 that says
                    "Porsche owners are not old. They're just successful."
                    Since you're close by, John, can you do a survey for
                    all of us? Give them a call, imply that you're young and
                    not an executive type but you're really interested in
                    buying the vehicle. See how well they treat you, and
                    report back on motd. Thanks!
                    \_ I already did once.  My uptake of Porsche owners here is
                       that they're generally mid-50s, confident, and don't
                       speed.  When I tried to buy an older 911 once (ended up
                       not being able to find a satisfactory one) I was treated
                       like shit by 2-3 third rate garages, and received very
                       enthusiastically by both private sellers and shops--
                       especially the older dudes seemed to be really happy
                       that someone younger appeared interested in a Porsche--
                       for several owners I've talked to, their car is like a
                       baby, sort of like with Saturn owners but far less
                       spooky and cultish.  -John
                       \_ So what did you end up getting?
                          \_ A TT.  I really like it.  I am still thinking of
                             buying an old 911 someday, or a TVR Chimaera if
                             I ever have the cash and space for a second, more
                             reliable car.  -John
                             \_ I also like the TT. It's a very cute, adorable
                                non-threatening sporty car. I've seen a lot of
                                pretty blonde bombshells driving one.
                                \_ http://www.myaudittsucks.com
                                   \_ The models for US export are from a
                                      satellite factory in Kyrgizstan.  -John
                                   \_ Wow!  A breathtaking number of spelling
                                      mistakes and grammatical errors just
                                      on the front page.
                                      \_ I guess that makes him a liar?
                                         \_ It certainly makes him an idiot.
                                            I'm not talking about the finer
                                            points of subjunctive clauses here,
                                            I'm talking about someone that
                                            spells "today" "to day."  Also,
                                            why should I believe some random
                                            crank on the web?  On first viewing
                                            this looks like the "don't buy a
                                            BMW" guy, who was just trying to
                                            extort BMW into giving him money
                                            to shut up.
                                            \_ I am not sure spelling and
                                               grammatical ability translate
                                               to intelligence. UCB is a
                                               good example of that. But, hey,
                                               I don't have a TT. What do I
                                               care?
                                            \_ Early model TTs had an annoying
                                               propensity towards flinging
                                               themselves off the road, and
                                               their rear axles would randomly
                                               break, but that's fixed.  -John
                             \_ How about an Ecomobile
                                \_ I don't need threatening.  I need fast,
                                   reliable, spacious, doesn't use tons of gas,
                                   looks good.  Fits the bill.  And I can't fit
                                   a shitload of {PCs, luggage, dead bodies}
                                   in an Ecomobile's trunk.  -John
                             \_ This car is too cool: http://csua.org/u/co3
                                \_ Porsche being cool is not news.
                    \_ Apparently, Porsche owners do not get laid:
                       http://csua.org/u/co0 (sfgate.com)
        \_ That's awesome!  I wonder if this thing is 'allowed' to
        \_ That's awesome!  I wonder if this thing is legally allowed to
           maneuver around cars between lanes, like a regular motorcycle.
             -- ilyas
           \_ These things are on the track, so they're probably still going
              through street certifications. I for one would love to see
              these vehicles on the street as they're not as annoying to
              ride as motorcycles. I'm a rider and I HATE wind noise when
              going above 65MPH. The wind noise at 80MPH feels like 2-3 times
              louder than engines, and the turbulence inside the helmet at
              100MPH is just ANNOYING. My other complaint with motorcycles is
              that there's no enclosure, so you have to wear thick leather
              gear to protect yourself and it either gets really cold or
              really hot when you ride. Also I hate it when bugs or dust get
              onto my neck. I hope they make these things street legal ASAP.
              \_ Yeah, I would buy one.  The one thing that prevents me from
                 getting a motorcycle is the safety issue.  This thing is
                 probably a lot safer than a bike, but also less safe than a
                 car.  -- ilyas
                 \_ I don't see how tiny little plastic fairings will make
                    that vehicle a lot safer than motorcycles, although I
                    do have to admit that when the eco-mobile low sided it
                    was a lot less spectacular than when I low-sided my
                    motorcycle.
                    \_ Yeah, saying something is 'a lot safer than a motorcycle'
                       truly does not say much.  Those things are wheeled
                       coffins, imo. -- ilyas
                       \_ You are very smart!
                       \_ Yeah pretty much. But I think they probably are safer
                          in most crashes; you don't get thrown into the path
                          of vehicles and you have a seatbelt. But no crumple
                          zones or the like; I would like to see a video of
                          one getting broadsided in an intersection by a cell-
                          phone using SUV driver. Maybe it bounces away like
                          a ping-pong ball.
                          \_ They say it's kevlar/glass-weave composite
                             monocoque with a bunch of protection bars.  When I
                             took a look at one at an intersection, it looked a
                             lot like a glider cockpit.  Since this thing is
                             pretty light, wouldn't it not have to crumple?
                             The Smart doesn't have any crumple zones either-it
                             appears to rely on being very rigid.  -John
                             \_ I think the idea of crumple zone is that you
                                don't want the vehicle to be too rigid such
                                that the vehicle decelerates the driver's body
                                too hard.  With a crumple zone, the driver's
                                deceleration is lower.  Whether the vehicle is
                                light or not doesn't change this.
              \_ It's called an AUTOMOBILE. Stupid.
           \_ Actually, in CA, "lane splitting" is just defined as a
              passing manuver.  Anything small enough to do it is allowed
              to.  It just happens that pretty much the only thing small
              and fast enough is a motorcycle.  This thing looks a bit
              wide though.
        \_ what's the mileage of typical motorcycles?
           \_ My EX500 (top 120MPH) gets 45MPG.
              A typical race ready bikes like Honda 600RR (top ~160MPH)
              gets about 34MPG. Hiyabusa (top ~200MPH) gets even less.
              The biggest problem with motorcycles is DRAG.
           \_ I used to get 75-85MPG on my Honda 250. Top speed was only 75
           \_ I used to get 75MPG on my Honda 250. Top speed was only 75
              though. I get 30MPG on my Ducati around town, 45 on the
              highway. -ausman
              \_ A Prius almost gets 60MPG, which puts most motocycles to
                 shame. And while I'm at it, I really hate Ducati's dry
                 clutch, it rattles a lot when you're slow and it is
                 annoying as hell.
        \_ http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/30/autos-73731.htm
           "A third Eco is scheduled to be delivered within weeks to a Denver
           businessman whose wife, so the story goes, was so incensed with
           her husband spending so much on the new contraption that she left
           him."
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:July:08 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>