6/10 http://www.amnestyusa.org/annualreport/statement.html
I happen to think AI is not playing a very intelligent game, lately.
-- ilyas
\_ Wow, that goes even beyond my tolerance of holding the US to
a higher standard. If lunatics like this are taken to represent
legitimate grievances, Joe Shmo will never take these seriously
in the least. -John
\_ Yow. Gitmo is bad news, AG was a disaster, but comparing that
to Pinochet is strictly KPFA territory. Really, folks, yelling
Nazi at people is not a constructive approach. --erikred
\_ Reread it. No one was compared to Pinochet. It was simply
stated that International Law could be brought to bear,
similar to what happened to Pinochet.
\_ Read and re-read. By placing Pinochet's name in that
context, the author is inviting comparison. Either it's
an example of poor editing technique, or it's deliberate.
\_ You are just reading into it what you want to see.
It is just the most high profile example of what
can happen to the powerful when subject to
International Law. If they had mentioned Kissinger's
midnight flight from Spain would you claim they
were comparing Rumsfeld to Kissinger?
\_ 'The apparent high-level architects of torture
should think twice before planning their next
vacation to places like Acapulco or the French
Riviera because they may find themselves under
arrest as Augusto Pinochet famously did in London
in 1998.'
You read that without immediately drawing a link
between what Pinochet did and what has happened in
Gitmo and AG? (And OT: Kissinger had/has panache;
Rumsfeld's running on sheer gall.)
\_ and you think AI was playing very intelligent game when it
critizing other countries?
\_ AI is like the ACLU--a bit "out there", but fills a valuable
function, as many of these groups do, drawing attention to
wrongdoings. There are a lot of countries that deserve harsh
criticisms, including the US However, there's also the idea
of proportionality--while a Gitmo is horrible for a nation that
should be a good example worldwide, bearing down almost solely
on the US while almost completely disregarding all the far worse
shit going on around the world (except for an "oh, yeah, there's
Nepal and Darfur, but it's still kind of your fault for letting
it happen") is just mad. -John
\_ Also, ACLU gets bonus points for noting that prisoner abuse
in US prisons is a huge humanitarian problem, and as such
prisoner abuse is, sadly, nothing new for the US. -- ilyas
\_ my biggest problem with AI is that their selection on which
country to pick on seems to be not-so-randomn. Noticably,
lack of critism of those nations who are US allies, such as
Turkey and Saudi Arabia. I've always assumed
it is a PR arm of US or UK in the past.
\_ http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi
\_ http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/turkey
\_ that is my point. couple pages on the internet,
nothing more. No voice of boycott / economic / arm
embargo or anything close to it. I just wondering
why China gets all the blame.
\_ Wow. AI can embargo weapons? They are
far more powerful than I realized.
\_ This somehow suprises you? AI has always been on the lunatic
fringe along with PETA.
\_ Bzzt. See John's comment above. Also, AI has been more
reluctant to engage in hyperbole and guerilla PR than PETA.
Cf. PBS vs. KPFA.
\_ Since everything they put in that report was true, it is hard
for me to figure out why you are so opposed to it. -ausman
\_ Do you really not see? Let's imagine a hypothetical human rights
body compiling a report on World War II, and mostly talking
about Hiroshima, and the Dresden fire bombing. Everything they
said was true... -- ilyas
\_ You are confused about the difference between Amnesty USA
and Amnesty International. Shouldn't the Amnesty sub-branch
of a country be most concerned with Human Rights in their
own country? The total Amnesty International report focuses
first on Darfur, then way down the list on Gitmo:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/index-eng
Would your hypothetical WWII human rights rights organization
be wrong to mention Dresden at all?
\_ Then they should either not make what looks like a mere
footnote out of supposed US responsibility for wrongs in
Nepal and Indonesia or be consistent and complete in their
criticism of perceived US inaction or wrongs committed
elsewhere. -John
\_ If, as you say, the purpose of http://amnestyusa.org is
specifically the violations committed by the US government,
one has to ask why isn't a website devoted specifically
to governments that are actually a greater humanitarian
problem (NK, etc). As far as I can see, the US is singled
out for a unique form of abuse -- the report pasted is just
the bashing of the US. That there is a general report
which lists other countries does not explain the need for
the current website to exist.
\_ Are you being deliberately obtuse? Amnesty USA is
comprised of those members of Amnesty International
that reside in the USA. If there were enough North
Korean members to form a North Korea chapter,
I am sure they could have their own website, too.
\_ No, they would be found and executed by the NK gov.
Sheesh. Welcome to reality.
\_ Your brain has been classified as: small.
\_ Ok. The United States is a uniquely transparent,
self-examining society. I suppose it does make it
easy to specifically bash them. But this is, as an
old jewish proverb goes, looking for what is lost
under the lamppost (because that's where the light
is). Also, where's Amnesty Europe?
\_ Stop trying to defend torture. There is really
no defence. And you will find all sorts of
national chapter websites, if you take the
trouble to look for them. I am sure you can
use Google all on your own.
\_ You see, people often accuse Bush supporters of
the mentality of 'if you are not with us, you
are with the terrorists.' Curiously, Amnesty
supporters seem to have the mentality 'if you
criticize Amnesty, you are defending torture!'
Give me a break. This is a red herring.
-- ilyas
\_ No, you were critizing AI USA for attacking
the US human rights record. There is really
only one way to read that. No red herring
at all. The claim that there is no AI
Europe is the Red Herring. Europe is not
even a country. Even a five minute search
using Google turned up AI France, Germany,
UK, Israel, Turkey, The Netherlands, Norway,
India, Finland, Norway, NZ and Australia.
\_ No, I am not criticising AI USA for the
act of criticism itself, but for lack of
scale and implied moral relativism.
'Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?' If
holding the US to a higher standard is
important, then holding Amnesty to an even
higher standard is doubly important.
important, then holding Amnesty to an
even higher standard is doubly important.
-- ilyas
\_ And exactly how many tank divisions
does Amnesty International have?
\_ How many tanks does the Catholic
Church have? Do you think they are
a powerless organization too? You
have to watch a lot more people
than just those with tanks. This
is another red herring. In some
sense, though, there is a kind of
karma to these orgs. If they get
too shrill, people stop paying
attention to them. -- ilyas
\_ It is amusing that you think
that Amnesty International is
more powerful than the Pentagon.
\_ Your knowledge of Soviet
history is lacking.
\_ I suppose the fact that
Djugashvili said it makes it
a RED herring. -- ilyas |
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