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| 2005/6/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37969 Activity:high |
6/4 FUCK http://cnn.com! Every single news site has a different take on it than toeing-the-fucking-Administration-line http://cnn.com. Even http://foxnews.com! \_ O.o you're weird. \_ Um, what exactly is it? -dans \_ Well, they changed it this morning. \_ They changed it this morning. Good thing they woke up to their fucking senses. \_ Right, but what is it? Were they stating that modern bombs do, in fact, tick not vibrate? Did they have it backwards, do they vibrate? Must we not imply ownership and refer to it as ``a dildo,'' not ``your dildo?'' -dans |
| 2005/6/4-6 [Computer/HW/IO] UID:37970 Activity:moderate |
6/3 Tactiva, a new input device. Check out the videos:
http://tactiva.com/demo.html
\_ Looks nice, but I would think your hands would get tired like
that.
\_ It looks like an improvement but still not what I'm looking for.
I would really prefer an input method where I could use most of my
upper body for CAD work. The thing Tom Cruise used in "Minority
Report" is more the direction I would like to see. -- ulysses
\_ Ya, like modern mice don't tire you out. It's not a replacement
for a keyboard. It's a replacement for a mouse, the most stupid
RSI inducing input device ever made.
\_ There's no proof that computer usage through standard
I/O devices causes RSI. People with real RSI are individuals
who have to deal with heavy manual labor like meat packers
or jackhammer operators.
or jackhammer operators. -williamc
\_ You're an idiot.
\_ Seconded
\_ No, you're the idiot.
http://www.hal-pc.org/journal/01repet.html
There are no known conclusive studies linking
computer usage to either RSI or CTS. Most likely
the computer usage was at best a trigger.
Other studies have shown that the percentage of
people who develop any sort of RSI who are regular
computer operators was no different than the
percentage of people who develop it in the
general populace period, indicating that whatver
it is, it's not the computer IO that's causing it
it is, it's not the computer IO that's causing it -williamc
-williamc
\_ Hmm. My sister had RSI in her wrists; she ended up
seeing a doctor, and then eventually an ergo
consultant, and her injuries healed. And, uhm,
no, my 5' 1" sister doesn't operate a jackhammer
or any other heavy equipment, and she doesn't pack
meat. She works at a computer all day as a
statistician for UCSF. -mice
\_ I've had it. It was directly caused by using an old
and sticky Sun Type 3 keyboard in a cold room at a
shitty desk with bad posture for too long hours at
a time. I had a mild case of CTS, and it HURT.
I changed all of the above and it went away. Sorry,
no jackhammers involved. -John
\_ Wow, I guess the tendinitis in my arms was just my
imagination! Thanks crazy motd tinfoil-hat guy!
-emarkp
\_ Have you considered that it might have been the
keyboard, not the mouse, that did it?
\_ What does that have to do with anything? The
thread is "computer usage"--not keyboard vs.
mouse. -emarkp
\_ Not that I am disputing your point, but you cannot
conclude anything causal from percentages alone.
RSI can have equal probability of occurence in
general population and computer users, and computer
use could still cause RSI. In fact, can any people
who are knowledgeable about courtroom arguments
enlighten me on how lawyers attempt to prove
causation in courts? If it's a long discussion,
please email me. -- ilyas
please email me. -- ilyas (continuing incoherence
about science on the motd since 1998!)
\_ 1998? fricken noob! -meyers (since 1992)
\_ The 115 pound female I knew who had to get surgery
for carpal tunnel must have been moonlighting as
a meat packer/jackhammer operator. And she worked
long hours on not ergonomic computer systems, but
that may just be a coincidence, she's obviously
lying about the heavy manual labor side jobs she
must have been employed in!
\_ I find it somewhat amusing that all we have is
anecdotal evidence. As I stated before, there
are no conclusive epi studies that support
CTS with the workplace in general, although
there appear to be strong causal linkages to
heavy manual labor.
Here's another link:
http://ocsonline.net/carpal_tunnel_syndrome.htm
I'm highly skeptical that CTS is caused by
computer IO. If it was you'd actually see a
direct statistical correlation to computer
usage and CTS or other ailments of the sort.
\_ To repeat myself again, no you wouldn't,
necessarily. For example, it may be that
people who are predisposed to computer use
also have a natural resistance to developing
CTS. You don't know what you are talking
about. -- ilyas
\_ However, it probably *is* that people
who are predisposed to computer use have
a natural predisposition to CTS. :)
To echo your statement (I think):
It may also be that computer use causes
it at the same rate it is caused in the
general populous by other mutually exclusive
factors. (thus no correlation but STILL
causation as you say below). Still though
I think the broader point of the op is that
typing doesn't cause it any more than
doing whatever else people are likely to
have to do to get by, which a lack of
correlation certainly is evidence of.
\_ No. You are not paying attention! You
cannot conclude ANYTHING causal from
correlative information alone, regardless
of what that information might be. It
may be that the frequencies are the same
for computer users, typers, and the
general populace, yet computer use causes
CTS, and typing does not. In order to
determine anything here you need to either
force people to use typewriters or
computers (which decouples the hidden
common causes involved), or use randomized
experiments (which fakes the same kind of
decoupling). -- ilyas
\_ speaking of paying attention: Who said
anything about concluding anything?
Certainly not me. There are all kinds
of evidence. Even anectdotes are
"evidence" after a fashion. The
evidence may not point in the right
direction and it certainly is not
conclusive, but a demonstrated lack of
correlation between typing for a
living and CTS and increased risk of
CTS certainly *IS* evidence that
typing doesn't cause CTS anymore than
average. Especially in the absense of
any reasonable hypothosis about why
people in that field would be unrepre-
sentative and Especially since i'd
predict that people in that field, if
anything, should be more likely to get
it and more likely to whine about it
when they did.
\_ The original quote was: 'same
frequencies indicates computer use
does not cause CTS.' This statement
is false. That's all I am trying
to say. You can resume begging off
on technicalities now. -- ilyas
As it stands now, we don't really know what
causes CTS, and at best we can only guess.
People who do have CTS may have gotten it
regardless of computer IO or not. Think about it,
the current generation of workers are involved
with the least amount of manual labor in probably
the history of mankind. Why then did our
forebearers not complain constantly about CTS?
Why is it a "modern" phenomenon? If you don't think
working on a farm during the turn of the 20th
century required constant repetitive tasks,
well, what can one say...
Also, one would think CTS would be much more
prevalent in the past before the advent of
modern soft-touch keyboards. Manual typewriters
are much harder on the hands. In addition,
writing in general is much harder on the hands.
I get writer's cramp, I've never gotten "typist"
cramp, especially on a modern day computer
keyboard. Admittedly, some of these keyboards
are horrid to type on, and no doubt they would
lead at least hand fatigue if used in the long
term, but realistically, I think human beings
are better designed in general to withstand
impact than what comes out of typing on a typical
modern day keyboard, even if you are typing at
100 WPM for an extended period of time. Also,
the average programmer probably types a lot
less than a legal secretary, and it's been
stated a number of times that there is no
correlation between developing CTS or IRS and
the amount you type, which makes one wonder...
Whatever the cause is, it's not computer IO.
\_ williamc, I used to have an "emacs pinky." That is, after
using emacs for over 10 years I started having pains in my
left pinky. The pain spread to my whole arm and I had to
get physical therapy a few times. But the thing that really
helped was using a Kinesis keyboard in which I have to use my
thumb to press CTRL and ALT keys. From what you're saying,
is there no difference between the quality of IO, one that
requires more effort or more frequency on certain fingers? |
| 2005/6/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37971 Activity:nil |
6/4 Protests in Azerbaijan! (interesting pictures)
http://csua.org/u/c99
\_ A Neocon Republican's dream come true.
A Moderate Republican's nightmare.
\_ Depends. Guess what leads through there since May 25? -John
\_ It couldn't be a pipeline, because motd told me they weren't
working on one. |
| 2005/6/4-6 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37972 Activity:high |
6/4 Regarding yesterday's racist remark on how wealthy and smart Jewish
people are, I will reiterate again that it is just my opinion, as a
non-Jew, that they are one of the wisest and sensible people in the
world. In fact, I think United States would be much better if the
government is run by Jews. That is because Jews are more likely to
use diplomacy rather than Shock & Awe, Bolton bullying, and
intimidation. They're also more likely to have earned their college
degrees without their daddy's influence. Most of them think clearly
and thus don't have speech impediments. Most of them are modest,
unlike people who say they've made no mistakes. They're also sensible
and are less likely to divise people into two camps-- one for you,
one against you. Lastly, Jews are less likely to impose their
Religious beliefs such as pro-life/pro-choice on you. Since they
know what it is like to be suppressed by the other race, they have
a lot of understanding and compassion for people who are different,
be it people with alternative and diverse lifestyles, or just
minorities in general. I hope one day, they take over our Red Neck
White Trash Christian Nation and make United States better for
Americans and less of a threat to everyone else. Shalom, and
Bless Jews. -Troller. Not a Jew, But Worship Them
\_ I'm stunned that no one else has yet said this is the most racist
drivel the motd has seen in quite a while. Please tell us that
when you signed as "Troller." you were telling us flat out that
this racist diatribe really is a troll and we weren't all supposed
to respond seriously like everyone below has done.
\_ I don't know if I would call the below responses "serious."
A few were tounge-in-cheek, and most were on a different,
although related, subject.
\_ Average IQ in Israel is actually pretty low:
http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm (IQ and the Wealth of Nations)
\_ its probably just being dragged down by them dirty palestinians
\_ Man, you should post this on the MSA website.
\-1. as with the sikhs, i think people assume there are more of
then then there are. small populations have have higher
variances from the mean than large ones.
2. there are some big selection factors, as well, looking at
an immigrant group. for example if you judge indians you
meet here a lot of them seem reasonably intelligent ... you
dont meet a lot of indians who couldnt tell you what 15% of
100 is. but it turns out if you go to india, you discover
there are a lot of dumb indians. similarly whatever you say
about jews here, the population metrics are likely to be pretty
different when you are talking about israelis. having met a
large number of israelis while traveling, they are the biggest
assholes [followed probably by indians ... this is actually
sort of interesting and there are some statistical explanations
but i'll leave it at that].
\_ If an American Jew is a fanatical asshole about religion,
they typically will want to go to Israel as much as
possible and will often move there and become citizens.
The town I'm from (in the U.S.) had a lot of these people.
When a Christian decides to be a fundamentallist asshole,
they do it right here, but among jews there's a filter that
tends to send the extremists to Israel and keep the more
decent folk here.
\_ I find Chinese to be greater assholes while traveling
abroad than Indians, but only marginally so. What is it
about the eastern mind that makes people inconsiderate
jerks?
\_ Nothing--just that some cultures bring out the fact that
people are assholes more than others through learned
traits (so, assuming you get the same % of assholes per
culture, your Englishman will seem treacherous and
passive-aggressive, French=arrogant, German=loud &
boorish, American=loud & obnoxious, Russian=pushy,
Chinese=rude & self-centered, etc.) -John
\_ Just a thought, but perhaps all these people who have
immigrated to the US have adapted to our social norms,
whereas when you are traveling abroad, you have probably
not adapted to their social norms.
\_ I'm often told that people in X country
are racist and don't like foreigners by
Chinese and Indians, but the problem
that I have with this is that I often
notice the same Chinese and Indians
tourists acting like complete jerks when
they are abroad.
I don't know who many times I've had to
stand in line behind some Chinese or
Indian having it out with the hotel staff
or a ticket agent over something trivial.
(It is worse when I have to stand behind
and Indian b/c I'm invariably viewed w/
distrust and am stuck apologizing for
the rude behavior).
I almost never see non-asian tourists do
things like take photos where they are
not permitted, walk accross lawns &c.
that are being repaired, spitting in
inappropriate places, yelling, &c.
Perhaps I am not in tune w/ their culture
but any culture that breeds disrespect
for your fellow man (esp. when you are a
guest in their country) is on that I don't
want to be in tune w/.
\- once again, a partial answer:
\- once again, i think i have a partial answer:
a lot of the indians going to a place like the
middle east are "lower class" persons, like
people with domestic or labor jobs. lower
class americans ... the type that chew and
spit tobacco dont leave the country. you go
to a mcdonalds in oakland and you see some
pretty amazing behavior.
note also that in some countries retail
establishments are mostly small proprietorships
and this means 1. you can bargain about prices
[and there are rude and non-rude ways of doing
this] 2. there are usually not hassle-free
returns, so sometimes you have to be a little
nasty ... and when it comes to small things,
it a matter of not being the bitch than the
money.
\- in the case of some indians, these are the servant-
owning class, so often they will treat people like
their mountaineering guides as their servants,
like "hey bring me my cigarettes". they are also
cheep [as are israelis and chinese]. it's one thing
to say "oh may be they dont think it is rude to
chew loudly" but it's not reasonable to say "in their
culture it is perfectly reasonable to yell across
the hotel atrium to your friends at 2am". a lot of
the chinese people i meet travelling in the backwaters
of asia are travelling solo and people [including
israelis] are less jerk-like solo. part of the
biasing factor in the israeli case is they are often
younger people who are looking to party on the cheap.
you cant relly compare a post-college american who
goes to france to see some culture and a dutch
teen ager who heads down to paris to carouse.
cheep [as are israelis and chinese]. [these are why
usually i am one of the two chiefs of labor nego-
tiations with the climbing staff: i look after them
more and i am a better tipper]. re: social norms:
it's one thing to say "oh maybe they dont think it
is rude to chew loudly" but it's not reasonable to
say "in their culture it is perfectly reasonable to
yell across the hotel atrium to your friends at
2am". a lot of the chinese people i meet travelling
in the backwaters of asia are travelling solo and
people [including israelis] are less jerk-like
solo. part of the biasing factor in the israeli case
is they are often younger people who are looking to
party on the cheap. you cant relly compare a
post-college american who goes to france to see some
culture and a dutch teen ager who heads down to paris
to carouse.
\_ I live in an apartment building full of white
frat boys who consider it acceptable to yell
across the courtyard to their friends at 2am.
My German upstairs neighbors have ear-shattering
parties at 4am sometimes. Are those cultural too?
-- ilyas
\- i'm talking about quite specific contexts.
like austriains in bali are likely to be
loud partiers. australians you meet crossing
the thorung la pass arent likely to be loud
and obnoxious ... nit that week anyway.
and there are some valid generalization and
they have explanations beyond "people from X
are just that way" ... like the servant class
example.
\_ It is not cultural that Cantonese speakers talk
louder than Mandarin speakers. It is a fact well
accepted by most Chinese. As for parties at 4AM,
that's a tough one. Maybe your German friends
learned it from Caucasian frat boys, who knows.
Speaking of Caucasian frat boys, I also hear
them yelling and breaking beer glass bottles
till 3AM 1/2 mile from Gayley. Fucking annoying
jocks. Definitely Caucasian frat cultural.
jocks. Definitely Caucasian frat cultural. Also,
definitely more of a UCLA thing than a Cal thing
\- Harbhajan Singh, On what he was discussing
with Younis Khan: Oh, it wasn't a heated
conversation. But you know, we were
speaking in Punjabi, and Punjabi is such a
language that even when you have a normal
conversatiion in it, it sounds heated.
\_ I've seen many drunk, stupid frat boys
pissing behind dumpsters and on street
corners in my years of living near college
campuses. I would like to point out however
that the *only* time I've seen a drunk
stupid frat boy atually pissing *on* the
porch of his own frat house was at the Yale
DKE house. Future presidents indeed.
\_ Re Germans, I used to work w/ a German guy and
he was always surprised when the neighbors
complained about his loud late night parties.
Apparently in Berlin the action doesn't start
until after midnight at the earliest.
\_ Zese are ze irresponsible chermans. Se real
Chermans are up at 6 in ze mornink, varmink
up ze panzers for ze little hangover trip to
POLAND, ha ha! -John
Re Frat Boys, They are just obnoxious youth,
which are found EVERYWHERE. In Dublin almost
all of the late night party/noise was from
kids getting drunk at pubs.
\_ I don't know any world leader who have all the combined attributes
of not prefering diplomacy, have a speech impediment, is not modest,
AND imposes his/her belief on you. To whom are you refering to??? |