Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:June:04 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/6/4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37969 Activity:high
6/4     FUCK!  Every single news site has a different take on it than
        toeing-the-fucking-Administration-line  Even!
        \_ O.o    you're weird.
        \_ Um, what exactly is it? -dans
           \_ Well, they changed it this morning.
           \_ They changed it this morning.
              Good thing they woke up to their fucking senses.
              \_ Right, but what is it?  Were they stating that modern bombs
                 do, in fact, tick not vibrate?  Did they have it backwards,
                 do they vibrate?  Must we not imply ownership and refer to it
                 as ``a dildo,'' not ``your dildo?'' -dans
2005/6/4-6 [Computer/HW/IO] UID:37970 Activity:moderate
6/3     Tactiva, a new input device. Check out the videos:
        \_ Looks nice, but I would think your hands would get tired like
        \_ It looks like an improvement but still not what I'm looking for.
           I would really prefer an input method where I could use most of my
           upper body for CAD work. The thing Tom Cruise used in "Minority
           Report" is more the direction I would like to see. -- ulysses
           \_ Ya, like modern mice don't tire you out. It's not a replacement
              for a keyboard. It's a replacement for a mouse, the most stupid
              RSI inducing input device ever made.
              \_ There's no proof that computer usage through standard
                 I/O devices causes RSI. People with real RSI are individuals
                 who have to deal with heavy manual labor like meat packers
                 or jackhammer operators.
                 or jackhammer operators. -williamc
                 \_ You're an idiot.
                        \_ Seconded
                    \_ No, you're the idiot.
                       There are no known conclusive studies linking
                       computer usage to either RSI or CTS. Most likely
                       the computer usage was at best a trigger.
                       Other studies have shown that the percentage of
                       people who develop any sort of RSI who are regular
                       computer operators was no different than the
                       percentage of people who develop it in the
                       general populace period, indicating that whatver
                       it is, it's not the computer IO that's causing it
                       it is, it's not the computer IO that's causing it -williamc
                       \_ Hmm.  My sister had RSI in her wrists; she ended up
                          seeing a doctor, and then eventually an ergo
                          consultant, and her injuries healed.  And, uhm,
                          no, my 5' 1" sister doesn't operate a jackhammer
                          or any other heavy equipment, and she doesn't pack
                          meat.  She works at a computer all day as a
                          statistician for UCSF.     -mice
                       \_ I've had it.  It was directly caused by using an old
                          and sticky Sun Type 3 keyboard in a cold room at a
                          shitty desk with bad posture for too long hours at
                          a time.  I had a mild case of CTS, and it HURT.
                          I changed all of the above and it went away.  Sorry,
                          no jackhammers involved.  -John
                       \_ Wow, I guess the tendinitis in my arms was just my
                          imagination!  Thanks crazy motd tinfoil-hat guy!
                          \_ Have you considered that it might have been the
                             keyboard, not the mouse, that did it?
                             \_ What does that have to do with anything?  The
                                thread is "computer usage"--not keyboard vs.
                                mouse. -emarkp
                       \_ Not that I am disputing your point, but you cannot
                          conclude anything causal from percentages alone.
                          RSI can have equal probability of occurence in
                          general population and computer users, and computer
                          use could still cause RSI.  In fact, can any people
                          who are knowledgeable about courtroom arguments
                          enlighten me on how lawyers attempt to prove
                          causation in courts?  If it's a long discussion,
                          please email me. -- ilyas
                          please email me. -- ilyas (continuing incoherence
                          about science on the motd since 1998!)
                          \_ 1998?  fricken noob!  -meyers (since 1992)
                       \_ The 115 pound female I knew who had to get surgery
                          for carpal tunnel must have been moonlighting as
                          a meat packer/jackhammer operator.  And she worked
                          long hours on not ergonomic computer systems, but
                          that may just be a coincidence, she's obviously
                          lying about the heavy manual labor side jobs she
                          must have been employed in!
                          \_ I find it somewhat amusing that all we have is
                             anecdotal evidence. As I stated before, there
                             are no conclusive epi studies that support
                             CTS with the workplace in general, although
                             there appear to be strong causal linkages to
                             heavy manual labor.
                             Here's another link:
                             I'm highly skeptical that CTS is caused by
                             computer IO. If it was you'd actually see a
                             direct statistical correlation to computer
                             usage and CTS or other ailments of the sort.
                             \_ To repeat myself again, no you wouldn't,
                                necessarily.  For example, it may be that
                                people who are predisposed to computer use
                                also have a natural resistance to developing
                                CTS.  You don't know what you are talking
                                about. -- ilyas
                                \_ However, it probably *is* that people
                                   who are predisposed to computer use have
                                   a natural predisposition to CTS. :)
                                   To echo your statement (I think):
                                   It may also be that computer use causes
                                   it at the same rate it is caused in the
                                   general populous by other mutually exclusive
                                   factors.  (thus no correlation but STILL
                                   causation as you say below).  Still though
                                   I think the broader point of the op is that
                                   typing doesn't cause it any more than
                                   doing whatever else people are likely to
                                   have to do to get by, which a lack of
                                   correlation certainly is evidence of.
                                   \_ No.  You are not paying attention!  You
                                      cannot conclude ANYTHING causal from
                                      correlative information alone, regardless
                                      of what that information might be.  It
                                      may be that the frequencies are the same
                                      for computer users, typers, and the
                                      general populace, yet computer use causes
                                      CTS, and typing does not.  In order to
                                      determine anything here you need to either
                                      force people to use typewriters or
                                      computers (which decouples the hidden
                                      common causes involved), or use randomized
                                      experiments (which fakes the same kind of
                                      decoupling). -- ilyas
                                      \_ speaking of paying attention: Who said
                                         anything about concluding anything?
                                         Certainly not me.  There are all kinds
                                         of evidence.  Even anectdotes are
                                         "evidence" after a fashion.  The
                                         evidence may not point in the right
                                         direction and it certainly is not
                                         conclusive, but a demonstrated lack of
                                         correlation between typing for a
                                         living and CTS and increased risk of
                                         CTS certainly *IS* evidence that
                                         typing doesn't cause CTS anymore than
                                         average.  Especially in the absense of
                                         any reasonable hypothosis about why
                                         people in that field would be unrepre-
                                         sentative and Especially since i'd
                                         predict that people in that field, if
                                         anything, should be more likely to get
                                         it and more likely to whine about it
                                         when they did.
                                         \_ The original quote was: 'same
                                            frequencies indicates computer use
                                            does not cause CTS.'  This statement
                                            is false.  That's all I am trying
                                            to say.  You can resume begging off
                                            on technicalities now. -- ilyas
                             As it stands now, we don't really know what
                             causes CTS, and at best we can only guess.
                             People who do have CTS may have gotten it
                             regardless of computer IO or not. Think about it,
                             the current generation of workers are involved
                             with the least amount of manual labor in probably
                             the history of mankind. Why then did our
                             forebearers not complain constantly about CTS?
                             Why is it a "modern" phenomenon? If you don't think
                             working on a farm during the turn of the 20th
                             century required constant repetitive tasks,
                             well, what can one say...
                             Also, one would think CTS would be much more
                             prevalent in the past before the advent of
                             modern soft-touch keyboards. Manual typewriters
                             are much harder on the hands. In addition,
                             writing in general is much harder on the hands.
                             I get writer's cramp, I've never gotten "typist"
                             cramp, especially on a modern day computer
                             keyboard. Admittedly, some of these keyboards
                             are horrid to type on, and no doubt they would
                             lead at least hand fatigue if used in the long
                             term, but realistically, I think human beings
                             are better designed in general to withstand
                             impact than what comes out of typing on a typical
                             modern day keyboard, even if you are typing at
                             100 WPM for an extended period of time. Also,
                             the average programmer probably types a lot
                             less than a legal secretary, and it's been
                             stated a number of times that there is no
                             correlation between developing CTS or IRS and
                             the amount you type, which makes one wonder...
                             Whatever the cause is, it's not computer IO.
           \_ williamc, I used to have an "emacs pinky." That is, after
              using emacs for over 10 years I started having pains in my
              left pinky. The pain spread to my whole arm and I had to
              get physical therapy a few times. But the thing that really
              helped was using a Kinesis keyboard in which I have to use my
              thumb to press CTRL and ALT keys. From what you're saying,
              is there no difference between the quality of IO, one that
              requires more effort or more frequency on certain fingers?
2005/6/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37971 Activity:nil
6/4     Protests in Azerbaijan!  (interesting pictures)
        \_ A Neocon Republican's dream come true.
           A Moderate Republican's nightmare.
           \_ Depends.  Guess what leads through there since May 25?  -John
              \_ It couldn't be a pipeline, because motd told me they weren't
                 working on one.
2005/6/4-6 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:37972 Activity:high
6/4     Regarding yesterday's racist remark on how wealthy and smart Jewish
        people are, I will reiterate again that it is just my opinion, as a
        non-Jew, that they are one of the wisest and sensible people in the
        world. In fact, I think United States would be much better if the
        government is run by Jews. That is because Jews are more likely to
        use diplomacy rather than Shock & Awe, Bolton bullying, and
        intimidation. They're also more likely to have earned their college
        degrees without their daddy's influence. Most of them think clearly
        and thus don't have speech impediments. Most of them are modest,
        unlike people who say they've made no mistakes. They're also sensible
        and are less likely to divise people into two camps-- one for you,
        one against you. Lastly, Jews are less likely to impose their
        Religious beliefs such as pro-life/pro-choice on you. Since they
        know what it is like to be suppressed by the other race, they have
        a lot of understanding and compassion for people who are different,
        be it people with alternative and diverse lifestyles, or just
        minorities in general. I hope one day, they take over our Red Neck
        White Trash Christian Nation and make United States better for
        Americans and less of a threat to everyone else. Shalom, and
        Bless Jews.                     -Troller. Not a Jew, But Worship Them
        \_ I'm stunned that no one else has yet said this is the most racist
           drivel the motd has seen in quite a while.  Please tell us that
           when you signed as "Troller." you were telling us flat out that
           this racist diatribe really is a troll and we weren't all supposed
           to respond seriously like everyone below has done.
           \_ I don't know if I would call the below responses "serious."
              A few were tounge-in-cheek, and most were on a different,
              although related, subject.
        \_ Average IQ in Israel is actually pretty low:
    (IQ and the Wealth of Nations)
           \_ its probably just being dragged down by them dirty palestinians
        \_ Man, you should post this on the MSA website.
           \-1. as with the sikhs, i think people assume there are more of
                then then there are. small populations have have higher
                variances from the mean than large ones.
             2. there are some big selection factors, as well, looking at
                an immigrant group. for example if you judge indians you
                meet here a lot of them seem reasonably intelligent ... you
                dont meet a lot of indians who couldnt tell you what 15% of
                100 is. but it turns out if you go to india, you discover
                there are a lot of dumb indians. similarly whatever you say
                about jews here, the population metrics are likely to be pretty
                different when you are talking about israelis. having met a
                large number of israelis while traveling, they are the biggest
                assholes [followed probably by indians ... this is actually
                sort of interesting and there are some statistical explanations
                but i'll leave it at that].
                \_ If an American Jew is a fanatical asshole about religion,
                   they typically will want to go to Israel as much as
                   possible and will often move there and become citizens.
                   The town I'm from (in the U.S.) had a lot of these people.
                   When a Christian decides to be a fundamentallist asshole,
                   they do it right here, but among jews there's a filter that
                   tends to send the extremists to Israel and keep the more
                   decent folk here.
                \_ I find Chinese to be greater assholes while traveling
                   abroad than Indians, but only marginally so. What is it
                   about the eastern mind that makes people inconsiderate
                   \_ Nothing--just that some cultures bring out the fact that
                      people are assholes more than others through learned
                      traits (so, assuming you get the same % of assholes per
                      culture, your Englishman will seem treacherous and
                      passive-aggressive, French=arrogant, German=loud &
                      boorish, American=loud & obnoxious, Russian=pushy,
                      Chinese=rude & self-centered, etc.)  -John
                   \_ Just a thought, but perhaps all these people who have
                      immigrated to the US have adapted to our social norms,
                      whereas when you are traveling abroad, you have probably
                      not adapted to their social norms.
                         \_ I'm often told that people in X country
                            are racist and don't like foreigners by
                            Chinese and Indians, but the problem
                            that I have with this is that I often
                            notice the same Chinese and Indians
                            tourists acting like complete jerks when
                            they are abroad.
                            I don't know who many times I've had to
                            stand in line behind some Chinese or
                            Indian having it out with the hotel staff
                            or a ticket agent over something trivial.
                            (It is worse when I have to stand behind
                            and Indian b/c I'm invariably viewed w/
                            distrust and am stuck apologizing for
                            the rude behavior).
                            I almost never see non-asian tourists do
                            things like take photos where they are
                            not permitted, walk accross lawns &c.
                            that are being repaired, spitting in
                            inappropriate places, yelling, &c.
                            Perhaps I am not in tune w/ their culture
                            but any culture that breeds disrespect
                            for your fellow man (esp. when you are a
                            guest in their country) is on that I don't
                            want to be in tune w/.
                            \- once again, a partial answer:
                            \- once again, i think i have a partial answer:
                               a lot of the indians going to a place like the
                               middle east are "lower class" persons, like
                               people with domestic or labor jobs. lower
                               class americans ... the type that chew and
                               spit tobacco dont leave the country. you go
                               to a mcdonalds in oakland and you see some
                               pretty amazing behavior.
                               note also that in some countries retail
                               establishments are mostly small proprietorships
                               and this means 1. you can bargain about prices
                               [and there are rude and non-rude ways of doing
                               this] 2. there are usually not hassle-free
                               returns, so sometimes you have to be a little
                               nasty ... and when it comes to small things,
                               it a matter of not being the bitch than the
                      \- in the case of some indians, these are the servant-
                         owning class, so often they will treat people like
                         their mountaineering guides as their servants,
                         like "hey bring me my cigarettes". they are also
                         cheep [as are israelis and chinese]. it's one thing
                         to say "oh may be they dont think it is rude to
                         chew loudly" but it's not reasonable to say "in their
                         culture it is perfectly reasonable to yell across
                         the hotel atrium to your friends at 2am". a lot of
                         the chinese people i meet travelling in the backwaters
                         of asia are travelling solo and people [including
                         israelis] are less jerk-like solo. part of the
                         biasing factor in the israeli case is they are often
                         younger people who are looking to party on the cheap.
                         you cant relly compare a post-college american who
                         goes to france to see some culture and a dutch
                         teen ager who heads down to paris to carouse.
                         cheep [as are israelis and chinese]. [these are why
                         usually i am one of the two chiefs of labor nego-
                         tiations with the climbing staff: i look after them
                         more and i am a better tipper]. re: social norms:
                         it's one thing to say "oh maybe they dont think it
                         is rude to chew loudly" but it's not reasonable to
                         say "in their culture it is perfectly reasonable to
                         yell across the hotel atrium to your friends at
                         2am". a lot of the chinese people i meet travelling
                         in the backwaters of asia are travelling solo and
                         people [including israelis] are less jerk-like
                         solo. part of the biasing factor in the israeli case
                         is they are often younger people who are looking to
                         party on the cheap.  you cant relly compare a
                         post-college american who goes to france to see some
                         culture and a dutch teen ager who heads down to paris
                         to carouse.
                         \_ I live in an apartment building full of white
                            frat boys who consider it acceptable to yell
                            across the courtyard to their friends at 2am.
                            My German upstairs neighbors have ear-shattering
                            parties at 4am sometimes.  Are those cultural too?
                              -- ilyas
                              \- i'm talking about quite specific contexts.
                                 like austriains in bali are likely to be
                                 loud partiers. australians you meet crossing
                                 the thorung la pass arent likely to be loud
                                 and obnoxious ... nit that week anyway.
                                 and there are some valid generalization and
                                 they have explanations beyond "people from X
                                 are just that way" ... like the servant class
                            \_ It is not cultural that Cantonese speakers talk
                               louder than Mandarin speakers. It is a fact well
                               accepted by most Chinese. As for parties at 4AM,
                               that's a tough one. Maybe your German friends
                               learned it from Caucasian frat boys, who knows.
                               Speaking of Caucasian frat boys, I also hear
                               them yelling and breaking beer glass bottles
                               till 3AM 1/2 mile from Gayley. Fucking annoying
                               jocks. Definitely Caucasian frat cultural.
                               jocks. Definitely Caucasian frat cultural. Also,
                               definitely more of a UCLA thing than a Cal thing
                                \- Harbhajan Singh, On what he was discussing
                                   with Younis Khan: Oh, it wasn't a heated
                                   conversation. But you know, we were
                                   speaking in Punjabi, and Punjabi is such a
                                   language that even when you have a normal
                                   conversatiion in it, it sounds heated.
                               \_ I've seen many drunk, stupid frat boys
                                  pissing behind dumpsters and on street
                                  corners in my years of living near college
                                  campuses.  I would like to point out however
                                  that the *only* time I've seen a drunk
                                  stupid frat boy atually pissing *on* the
                                  porch of his own frat house was at the Yale
                                  DKE house.  Future presidents indeed.
                            \_ Re Germans, I used to work w/ a German guy and
                               he was always surprised when the neighbors
                               complained about his loud late night parties.
                               Apparently in Berlin the action doesn't start
                               until after midnight at the earliest.
                               \_ Zese are ze irresponsible chermans.  Se real
                                  Chermans are up at 6 in ze mornink, varmink
                                  up ze panzers for ze little hangover trip to
                                  POLAND, ha ha!  -John
                               Re Frat Boys, They are just obnoxious youth,
                               which are found EVERYWHERE.  In Dublin almost
                               all of the late night party/noise was from
                               kids getting drunk at pubs.
        \_ I don't know any world leader who have all the combined attributes
           of not prefering diplomacy, have a speech impediment, is not modest,
           AND imposes his/her belief on you. To whom are you refering to???
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:June:04 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>