Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:May:13 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2005/5/13-15 [Health/Men] UID:37663 Activity:nil
5/12    Hong Kong men measure up
        link:csua.org/u/c22
        \_ Hmm, measured in the flaccid state.  Not particularly valid.
           \_ Feeling threatened?
        \_ Mine in flaccid state is longer in hot weather than in cold weather.
           \_ Yeah... how can something like this be scientifically rigorous?
              Like how/where exactly is the measurement done. You're also
              dealing with soft tissues that can still vary in length depending
              on conditions.
                \_ I was in the pool!!!!! I was in the pool!!!!!!
        \_ Men who think theirs are small are less likely to volunteer for the
           study.  So the average measurement from the study is probably higher
           than the real average.  But then this applies to studies in other
           countries too, so the ranking is probably still valid.  But like
           what is said above, who cares about flaccid state anyway?
           \_ your penis has been classified as: small
              \_ Yawn.
2005/5/13-15 [Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:37664 Activity:high
5/13    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/12/tech/main694925.shtml
        Toyota to produce Hybrid Camry. Honda is FUCKED. First of all
        the Civic Hybrid (a quickly designed crap) pales in comparison
        to the most technological advanced Prius, and their Accord Hybrid
        sucks in terms of mileage (it doesn't even qualify for the 45MPG
        requirement for carpool lane). Honda is FUCKED. How depressing.
                                        -Honda supporter, 1988-2005.
        \_ So what?  I knew that two years ago.
        \_ Qualifying for carpool lane?  I thought qualification is based on
           emission level, not MPG.  A ZEV gas-guzzler qualifies while a high-
           mileage hybrid car with not-so-low emission won't.
           \_ California passed legislation allowing hybrids into carpool
              lane if the mpg is >= 45.  It's not in effect yet waiting
              for federal approval.  --paulwang
              \_ What a retarded law. Why would they specify hybrids?
                 Why not just >=45mpg, or based on emissions? Typical stupid
                 government. Just like when they mandated EV's and then had
                 to backpedal out of that idiocy. And carpool lanes should
                 be used for encouraging carpooling, not environmental shit.
                 How much more gas is wasted by having two lanes of slow
                 traffic sitting there that would go faster with the carpool
                 lane open? They also could incentivize it by tweaking the
                 gas guzzler tax to be more stringent.
                 \_ carpool lanes are a scam to get people to vote for
                    highway construction bonds who otherwise wouldn't.
                    As soon as they go in, the hours and requirements start
                    getting reduced.  -tom
                 \_ any vehicle. Motorcycles get on carpool lane.
                 \_ No gas is wasted. Carpool lanes routinely carry
                    more passengers per hour than the other lanes,
                    especially at rush hour.
                    \_ I don't know about the freeways, but at least this is
                       true for the Bay Bridge, where during commute hours more
                       people pass through the carpool lanes on the left and
                       right ends of the toll plaza than all the other lanes
                       combined.
        \_ I wish Toyota had a Hybrid model when I bought my 2005 Sienna.
        \_ I've said it many times before, a hybrid is just a more efficient
           gas engine.  Why should they get any special treatment?
           \_ incentive for auto makers to build more efficient cars.
           \_ incentive for auto makers to build more efficient cars. Since
              tree huggers have a difficult time getting legislation to
              punish polluters, the next best thing they can do is getting
              legislation to reward those who pollute less. If your point was
              "What does higher efficiency/less pollution have anything to do
              with carpool lane/reducing traffic", you're right.
           \_ Motorcycles also get to use the carpool lane.  We also don't
              have to get smog checks.
              \_ You don't survive crashes. Use of the carpool lane is
                 a small reward in exchange for your life.  My dad rides
                 and w/ the number of near misses he's had in bay area
                 traffic, I keep telling him he's crazy to keep riding.
                 \_ maybe he's an adrenaline junky. Adrenaline Dad.
                    \_ "The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it
                       because the only people who really know where it is
                       are the ones who have gone over.  The others - the
                       living - are those who pushed their control as far
                       as they felt they could handle it, and then pulled
                       back, or slowed down, or did whatever they had to
                       when it came time to choose between Now and Later."
                         --Hunter S. Thompson, from "Hell's Angels"
                  \_ I have been riding for 15 years, crashed only once
                     and walked away from it. But I probably don't ride
                     like Hunter S. Thompson either. -ausman
                     \_ You are very lucky. I've seen several less
                        fortunate people on 85 in the last 10 yrs.
        \_ The Honda Accord isn't designed to be fuel efficient, it's
           designed to have better performance, right?
        \_ I still don't understand what the big deal about the current
           set of hybrids is.  It seems like a gimmick rather an a real
           long term soln to the problem of foreign oil dependancy. Oil
           is a non-renewable resource (abiotic theories aside) and all
           the hybrids will do is to stretch out our supply. It seems
           that all the effort would be better spent on making more cng
           or bio-diesel cars or hybrids w/ cng and b-d.
           \_ Is natural gas reserve in the world larger than oil reserve?
              \_ Not all cng is taken from the reserves; it can be made
                 from corn, &c.
        \_ when you got the chance, you should hear some of the story
           of Toyota's earlier hybrids... they stall in traffic light,
           they stall on a raining day,etc.  very fun to hear that.
           then again, I don't understand why Toyota is pouring money
           onto this technology.. they are not making money on those
           hybrid car yet, eventhough they are opting to offer hybrid
           option on every single model in the USA line up.
2005/5/13-15 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:37665 Activity:nil
5/13    I'm just a dumb consumer and I just go to whatever store that is
        closer or cheaper. And yes, I do shop at Wal-Mart and I don't
        have any problem with them. Maybe they do predatory businesses
        and maybe they don't. I don't know... and I don't really give
        a damn. However, I just want to say that fundamentally, I have a lot
        of problems with giving a lot of clout and power to a few selected
        elite (and in this case, board members and CEOs).
          The entire U.S. constitution was created so that it avoids pitfalls
        of the past (giving too much power to European aristocrats) with
        system of checks and balances, and by giving back some voices back
        to the people. In the early 1800s, corporations were formed as
        legal entities, with most of the rights of individuals AND
        with all the power and clouts of aristocrats. We saw how things
        got really ugly in the 20s and 30s, with the division and struggles
        between Unions and Management, and later with new laws forming to
        protect laborers. Right now, we're heading back to the old days
        where the Union is weak and the Corporation is stronger than ever.
        Fine, maybe Wal-Mart will always do ethical things. But can you
        trust them to always to be that way? I don't know.
2005/5/13-15 [Recreation/Food] UID:37666 Activity:low
5/12    I'm spending a week in Tokyo. For people who have lived there, do
        you have any recommendations like things to do, places to visit,
        or have a favorite restaurant (something that doesn't cost $60/meal)?
        \_ Asaki's Western Massage Parlour.
           A lot of young, skinny, beautiful Eastern European ladies
           who'll do ANYTHING to satisfy your dreams. There are a few
           few chunky Americans too, if you're into that.
           \_ Wouldn't OP be interested more in local girls?
        \_ Nobu.  Ask for the fubu.
                \_ Why would he ask for clothing created by black people?
        \_ Groping schoolgirls in uniforms and OL's in morning commute subway.
           100 yen for a ticket and you can grope for hours.
           \_ What's OL?
              \_ office lady. Common in Tokyo. 1/2 of the Japan porns involve
                 school girls or OL.
        \_ Don't bother with Roppongi, take a Shinkansen (they're way cool),
           visit a nice Isakaia (only good places to drink), have a look at
           Shibuya, take the train at rush hour, go knock around Shinjuku,
           visit a Tokyu (sp?) Hands store, there's no way you can be
           bored.  -John
        \_ Go visit Akihabara on a weekend which is a town for electronic
        \_ Go visit Akihabara on a weekend which is an area for electronic
           gadgets.  You can check out all the cool gadgets as well as all the
           hot women in tight short outfits holding ad signs.
2005/5/13-15 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Recreation/Music] UID:37667 Activity:nil
5/13    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050513/od_nm/mexico_mariachi_dc
        New type of crime: Bogus mariachi band rob music-lovers in Mexico.
        I can just see this new crime spread to Europe, where string quartet
        musicians in Vienna robs tourists after they play Mozart.
2005/5/13-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37668 Activity:moderate
5/13    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050513/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/base_closings
        When was the last major closure of bases? Clinton? Kennedy? Does
        this mean there will be a lot of pissed off military men, with
        rifles and sniper guns and no jobs?
        \_ I REALLY hope pissed off jobless military men get militant and
           start throwing pies at Bush.
        \_ People from closed bases need to move to other bases.
           \_ yeah like bases in... Iraq.
           \_ so the cut-back is just savings from operational costs
              associated with geography?
              \_ Well there are the buildings on top of the geography and
                 the resources to keep them running.
        \_ Clinton closed a bunch of bases.  As I recall Republicans
           complained.  I bet the Dems do this time.
           \_ Mmm... a little history might give you a FUCKING CLUE.
              Dick Armey's legislation under Reagan created the commission
              so that Congress would be in on base closings.  Over the last
              17 years through 4 different presidents, there have been sporadic
              base closings.
              In 2002, Bush said he would veto the defense spending bill if
              they didn't include a provision for another commission for 2005.
           \_ Who cut more? Clinton closed down Treasure Island right?
              \_ Most of the moderately-recent Bay Area military base closures
                 were under Clinton -- NAS Alameda, Treasure Island, Mare
                 Island, Moffett, Fort Ord, maybe a few others. I seem to
                 recall a lot of military resource consolidation stuff under
                 Clinton's administration, much of which was (in my opinion)
                 fairly justified given the post-Cold-War reduction in
                 military forces. -gm
                 \_ Although the last round of closures did hit the bay area,
                    Dellums' clout as the ranking member of the armed
                    services committee protected us somewhat.
                    services committee protected us somewhat. Things
                    could be much worse this time around.
                    \_ Hang on a second.  Bases exist as tools for the
                       military to better protect the United States from
                       foreign aggression.  They are meant to be neither the
                       TVA nor the CCC nor any other make-work economic
                       stimulus.  When you start talking about being
                       "protected" from base closings, you get into dangerous
                       pork territory.  There are better and more efficient
                       ways of spending federal money than by suckling
                       communities on the teat of the military, such as on
                       Homeland Defense in threatened Iowa.  -John
                       \_ That is just the way politics works John and
                          it is somewhat naive to think otherwise. -ausman
                          \_ Of course it is, I'd assume you know I'm aware
                             of this :)  However, even if "it's just the way
                             it is", it's stupid and wrong and I'll certainly
                             point it out.  -John
                    \_ This is simply not true. The bay area was hit
                       disprportionately hard and this was a deliberate
                       disproportionately hard and this was a deliberate
                       sacrifice on the part of Dellums (and by extension
                       the Bay Area) to lead by example. Personally, I
                       I think we are better off with the Presidio being
                       converted to civilian use, for example.
                       \_ Bay area was hit hard because they couldn't get
                          enough gays/lesbians/peace-loving-liberals to sign

                          up and they couldn't take the heat from protestors :)
2005/5/13-15 [Computer/Networking] UID:37669 Activity:low
5/13    Broadband over gas lines:
        http://www.nethercomm.com/headline2.htm
        \_ Inexhaustable energy sources and unlimited bandwidth are two things
           that always exist in infinite quantities in the future.
           \_ In the infinite future.
        \_ Will I cause interference if I fart while surfing the web?
        \_ subterranean wireless broadband communication. that's a new one.
2005/5/13-15 [Recreation/Pets] UID:37670 Activity:nil
5/13    Dog gets a degree:
        http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/13/dogdegree0513.html
2005/5/13-15 [Recreation/Food] UID:37671 Activity:nil
5/13    Wendy's Chili Mystery Finally Solved.
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/wendy_s_finger
        \_ Wow, nice couple.
        \_ Those mugshots look like studio pictures, with soft lighting and
           stuff.
2005/5/13-16 [Uncategorized] UID:37672 Activity:nil
5/13    Humor of the week: http://www.angrylittlegirls.com
        \_ What the? They used to be called <DEAD>angrylittleasiangirls.com<DEAD> and
           had free Flash and stuff. Now you can't see most of the shit
           without paying. Boooo.
           \_ http://angrylittlegirls.com/alags_house.asp# (flash videos)
              Watch the Original Home Tour, it's hilarious
              Watch the Original Home Tour, it's hilariou
              Watch the Original Home Tour, it's hilario
2005/5/13-15 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan] UID:37673 Activity:high
5/13    Japan to name Hirohito Day:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4543461.stm
        I wonder how this would look if Germany had a Hitler Day.
        \_ Berlin just open a Holocust momerial... what a contrast
        \_ I can't even begin to describe how not-even-close you are. -John
           \_ Then what about a Mussolini Day? -nivra
              \_ If you said "Petain Day", you'd be getting there. Sort of.
                 \_ Petain = France = Ally, Hirohito = Japan = Axis
           \_ John, you have no idea what are you talking about.  If you
              want to have an opinion on this topic, please do some homework.
              You are offending many people with comment like this.
              \_ Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass.  I know very well what
                 I'm talking about;  Hitler actively presided over the
                 systematic eradication of millions of people and aggressive
                 wars that caused death, chaos and suffering beyond
                 imagination.  Hirohito was the ceremonial figurehead of
                 a nation whose militaristic clique pursued expansionist
                 policies with similar effects, but largely without
                 power and functionally isolated from the barbarisms
                 committed by the Japanese.  While there certainly is a
                 strong argument against dedicating a day to him, comparing
                 him to Hitler is ignorant, offensive and stupid.  If you
                 \_ this is the american version of the story.  he was
                    pretty much in control and set out the policy of
                    invading China.  American put this "ceremonial figurehead"
                    spin later as American try to prevent join occupation
                    of post-war Japan with the Soviet.
                    And, Japan was also actively persided over systematic
                    eratication of millions of civilians.  The only
                    differences is that Japanese were not as "systematic,"
                    and there were a lot more Chinese than Jews.  The civilian
                    casualty is between 20-30 million, out of total of
                    500 million people at the time.  Go at least read
                    Iris Chang's book when you have a chance.  And, FYI,
                    there was a policy of "plunder all, burn all, and kill
                    all" policy by the JPN Imiperial army.  It would consider
                    as a genocide by today's standard.
                 choose to do this, though, I can't recommend anything beyond
                 a swift smack upside the head, as it shows you for the
                 intellectual coward you are.  Fuck off and die.  -John
                 \_ Chill. Did you forget your daily SSRI today? Maybe you
                    should see a psychiatrist. Wait, you've already done that
                    for a while.
                    \_ Hm, I don't seem to recall ever visiting a shrink.
                       Maybe he brainwashed _and_ hypnotized me?  -John
                       \_ Maybe you can tell us how you escaped conscription/
                          Substitute Service/community service.
                          I know you know that I know.
                          \_ Oh yeah, that one.  Cool, you found me out,
                             forgot all about that.  Does that count?  I guess
                             you're right, I'm a psycho!  Good job!  Now fuck
                             off and die.  (Oh and if you're really interested
                             I paid one to write me a section 8 in lieu of
                             spending 4 months doing pushups.)  -John
                             \_ My young kraut, you didn't pay, your dad did.
                                Now YOU fuck off and never come back to motd
                                until you contribute something more worthwhile
                                reading on motd, like pictures of you jodeling
                                while eating bratwurst
                                \_ Huh?  Came out of my paycheck, as I recall.
                                   Why do you care?  If you're going to try
                                   and defame me, at least try harder.  And I
                                   think this thread is pretty funny.  -John
           \_ This comment reminds me of the time I was a kid and saw another
              kid who was uncooperative and crying at Toys-R-Us. He screamed
              something to the effect "You don't even know how I feel!"
              Obviously, without EXPLAINING how he feels, how the fuck would
              his parents understand?
2005/5/13-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:37674 Activity:high
5/13    Halfway to Vietnam:
        http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0128-33.htm
        The funny thing is, this doesn't even include the $50B being
        asked for right now.
        \_ Good figures and decent arguments, but the thing is no matter
           what you say, pro-Iraq war people (such as emarkp) will
           always counter claim that the invasion made the world safer,
           which is an argument that you can't prove them wrong. And people
           like that will argue that because we are brave and have
           principles, the new Iraq will be much better in the long run,
           with Democracy, and Freedom, and Western ideas spread around
           Middle East, hence we did the right thing, blah blah blah. And
           once people like that reason in such logic alone, they
           have no choice but to consider every other argument as heresy.
           These are the same people who even if they gained insights
           from your perspective, they'll still not admit mistakes because
           they're brought up with the idea that it's better to be
           firm and to stand up for your belief than to be wrong [from
           other people's perspective]. So to make my point short,
           I don't think this article contributes to anything.
           I for one am tired of seeing all these articles that point out
           why the war is good/bad. I'd rather see articles that make
           proposals and extensive academic studies (based on history,
           economics, and things like that) on how to make Iraq better,
           cheaper, safer, and faster.
           \_ What good are extensive studies when those in power don't read?
              \_ Good point. That's why it's important for voters to vote for
                 someone who is somewhat intelligent, open minded, and did
                 well in school without having to make academic donations.
                 \_ Personally I'd trust someone w/ common sense rather
                    than an over-educated joker.  Now a under-educated
                    joker w/o common sense is a whole other matter.
           \_ Are you sure that's what emarkp really thinks?
        \_ Obviously Korea and WWII were horrible ideas as well, thank God
           you appeasers were not around then.
           you cowards were not around then.
           \_ They were.  They were just vastly outweighed by the clear
              political and moral imperative of fighting those wars.  Can you
              say the same about Iraq?  Oh, and nice bit of sophistry,
              labelling those who question the legitimacy and wisdom of
              invading Iraq "appeasers."  I guess they're all traitors.  -John
           \_ Actually there were many people in this country who thought
              that America should stay out of WWII, b/c the Nazi's were
              correct in what they were doing (Lindberg comes to mind).
              There were still others who believed that America should
              not interfere in Europe's internal conflicts.  FDR wanted
              to go to war much earlier, but didn't have public support
              till Pearl Harbor (the invasion of Poland wasn't enough
              for many people).
           The Globe, ie. Jew York Times, was I'm sure the same rag
           whining about the humanitarian crisis in Iraq.  As always with
           leftists, its better to appease tyrants then take action.
           \_ ok, when are we going to take out Saudi Arabia?  most
              of sucide bombers are Saudi nationals, most of 9/11 hijackers
              are Saudis... I am waiting for your action to take on
              such tyrants.
              \_ We are taking on the Saudi's to some extent. At this
                 point it is probably better to push them to fix their
                 problems rather than go in there with guns blazing.
                 \_ why not?  what make you think we can fix their problem?
                 \_ why not?  what make you think we can fix their
                    problem?
                    \_
                    \_ The way I see it the main thing that leads to
                       terrorism and despotism is poverty and a lack of
                       education.  Both are present in SA.  The best way to
                       combat poverty and lack of education is with
                       liberalization of social and economic policies. While
                       this can be achieved by military force, the
                       preferable method is achieve it by peaceful internal
                       transformation.
                       The Saudi power structure includes some people who
                       see the need to liberalize (even if they don't like
                       the religious import of that decision).  These people
                       will likely take control of the nation in the
                       foreseeable future. A military intervention at this
                       point will mean that these people won't be able to
                       institute liberalized policies in the future, so
                       whatever would be gained in short term would be
                       offest in the long term.
                       foreseeable future (via succession). A military
                       intervention at this point will mean that these
                       people won't be able to institute liberalized
                       policies in the future, so whatever would be gained
                       in short term would be offest in the long term.
                       The difference I see in Iraq (and NK) is that there
                       is no equivalent within the power structure.
                 As I see it the main problem w/ Iraq was that there
                 no way to fix the problem w/o going in guns blazing.
                 This is perhaps why NK is the next place we are going
                 rather than Iran.
                 Historically NK is similar to Iraq as well. We had
                 to go in to Iraq a 2d time b/c the first time the
                 civilian leadership didn't finish the job. Same w/
                 NK, Truman should have let MacArthur finish the job.
                 \_ MacArther also promoted using 3-5 nukes on China. That's
                    one of the reasons for his early retirement.
                 \_ MacArther also promoted using 3-5 nukes on China.
                    That's one of the reasons for his early retirement.
                    \_ MacArthur's threat was an intimidation tactic,
                       not even Truman believed that MacArthur would
                       really use nukes against China.
                       The real problem was that Truman wanted a
                       "limited" engagement and MacArthur wanted to
                       win.  Given the amount of progress MacArthur
                       had made before he was relieved, and the fact
                       that the remaining 2 yrs of the war were a
                       managed retreat, Truman's decision to avoid
                       winning was a bad one, just like Bush I's
                       decision to not go to Baghdad and depose
                       Saddam was a bad one.
                       Saddam was a bad one. -jblack
                       Saddam was a bad one. [incorrect attribution
                       removed]
                       \_ Ah yes, the world is good or evil, and you either
                          win or lose. Narrow minded NEOCON TROLL ALERT!!!
                          \_ So you disagree w/ me? What are the
                             factual basis for your claims?
                          \_ So you disagree w/ me? What is the
                             factual basis for your claim?
                       \_ Why was Bush I's decision not to go to Baghdad
                          a bad one? His reasons for not going were to avoid
                          all the shitty problems we have in that country
                          today.  We now know that the UN inspectors WERE
                          doing their job, there was no Al-Queda-Saddam
                          connection except in Cheney's imagination, and
                          we would be $300B and 1500+ soldiers lives richer.
                          \_ Several groups within Iraq rose up against
                             Saddam after we invaded Kuwait.  Saddam's
                             army was on the run and the people were
                             opposed to him, it was a good opportunity
                             to rid the middle east of a useless dicator
                             and to ensure long term stability in the
                             region.  The "problems" we are having now
                             may have been avoided.  Even if they could
                             not be avoided, we had the advantage of
                             world opinion and internal resistance on
                             our side which would have made the whole
                             cleanup job MUCH easier.
                             Whether or not Saddam was building WMD or
                             the UN inspectors were doing their job is
                             largely irrelevant.  There would have been
                             no need for UN inspectors w/o Saddam. We
                             could also have avoided years of military
                             expense involved in enforcing the no-fly
                                \_ We haven't even gotten to the thing
                                   that Bush I truly feared: A civil
                                   war between the sects.
                             zone.
                             I personally prefer resolution of issues
                             rather than uneasy compromises.
                             rather than uneasy compromises which is
                             why I view Bush I's decision as a mistake.
                             I do not mean to imply that I believe that
                             Bush II's decision to invade Iraq was
                             appropriate (at that point in time).
                                \_ We haven't even gotten to the thing
                                   that Bush I truly feared: A civil
                                   war between the sects.  And of course
                                   you can say all this stuff, you are
                                   just projecting the best-case scenario
                                   to something that didn't happen, just
                                   like administration officials before
                                   the invasion: That we would be greeted
                                   as liberators and that the war would
                                   pay for itself because of Iraq's oil
                                   riches.
                                   \_ I agree that it could have been
                                      much harder than I make it out
                                      be.  However, it seems evident
                                      that the cleanup would have been
                                      much better because the whole
                                      world was behind us at that point.
                                      Perhaps some would have dropped
                                      out during the extended cleanup
                                      effort, but many (far more than
                                      are part of the current "coalition")
                                      would have remained to help out.
                                      Re Civil War: While this remains
                                      a possiblity, given the elections,
                                      &c. I do not believe that it will
                                      happen.
            \_ Didn't you get the memo? Anti-semitism is no longer hip for
               Conservatives. In any case, the fantasy of unlimited wealth
               and unlimited power has brought down most of the world's
               great empires. There are always more dictators to fight, more
               heathens to convert, more French to taunt, etc, than there is
               time and money to do it all. When governments (and citizens)
               throw out the idea of costs vs. benefits, then they are
               surely on the road to ruin.
               \_ Ok so NY Jews are 99% leftists so what am I supposed
                  to refer to them as?  How do you know I'm not Jewish?
            \_ Didn't you get the memo? Anti-semitism is no longer
               hip for Conservatives. In any case, the fantasy of unlimited
               wealth and unlimited power has brought down most of the
               world's great empires. There are always more dictators
               to fight, more heathens to convert, more French to taunt,
               etc, than there is time and money to do it all. When governments
               (and citizens) throw out the idea of costs vs. benefits,
               then they are surely on the road to ruin.
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:May:13 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>