Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:May:05 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/5/5 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:37525 Activity:high
5/5/    Can anybody think of a good way to save a directory structure without
        the files?  Like say you wanted to create the /usr/share/man
        directory skeleton preserving directory permissions and ownership
        but not keep any files as tar would normally do. I dont want to do
        an tar/untar of everything and then go back and delete the files,
        because we are looking at a few hundred megs in files.  I have
        various klugy ways to do this, but wondering if there was something
        slick with existing utilities. Note: I want to *store* this
        information (in a form which can be used to rebuild the tree
        structure if necessary). I dont want to merely clone an existing
        tree to another part of the disk, minus the files ... although i
        suppose you could clone the tree and tar that skeleton and then
        delete the tree.
        \_ find /usr/share/man -type d | xargs tar rnf man.tar   --mconst
           \_ tar -n will do it!  Thanks.
           \_ tar -n will do it, but that isnt an option on all tars.
              i suppose you can do a find -type f > /tmp/exclude and then
              do tar cf man.tar -X /tmp/exclude ... but ugh. any other
              \_ If your tar doesn't support -n, you could use zip:
                 find /usr/share/man -type d | xargs zip -g
                 \_ I suppose zip is a fact of life now even in the unix
                 \_ I suppose zip is a fact of life now in the unix
                    world and i shouldnt feel impure to use it.
2005/5/5 [Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:37526 Activity:nil
        If GWB cuts social security for the middle and upper-middle class,
        then doesn't it simply mean SS = welfare system for the old people?
        Second question. If we can invest in private accounts, can we invest
        in foreign stock market?                        -SS dumb guy
2005/5/5-6 [Health/Disease/AIDS, Health/Disease/General] UID:37527 Activity:moderate
5/5     Britta vs. Pur, round 1. Pur says it filters out bacteria whereas
        Britta makes no such claim. Pur costs 1.5X more than Britta. Britta
        (IMHO) has an acceptable after-taste, whereas I can't taste anything
        in Pur. What are you thought?
        \_ I don't believe that Pur filters (or any filter) will remove
           bacteria. To do that, UV light filters are needed. These sorts
           of filters merely remove dissolved solutes (like ions, etc.)
           \_ There ARE filters that can remove bacteria, but these
              tend to be the exotic ceramic camping ones.
              \_ Can these filters remove virus as well?
              \_ OK, but I was referring to household water filters.
        \_ I just find it so much more convenient to have the filter hooked
           right up to the tap, so I prefer PuR. I tried Brita before
           and it tasted fine. No idea if they've made a tap device by
           now. -bz
           \_ I thought they always had it. I used Brita tap thing for years.
        \_ I'm guessing you actually mean "1.5X what Britta costs", and not
           really "1.5X more"
2005/5/5-6 [Computer/SW/OS/Solaris, Computer/HW/Laptop, Computer/HW/CPU] UID:37529 Activity:kinda low
5/5     I am not familar with Solaris, so, I may be biased... My impression,
        from a desktop/laptop user point of view, is that Linux has
        better userability than Solaris10, eventhough Solaris 10 also come
        with a gnome desktop environment.  However, I find myself in a
        rare position of not knowing how to articulate this point to
        some of the Solaris fanatics.  Their argumenet is that since S10
        is also equipped with GNOME, userability is the same as Linux.
        1. is this arguement flawed?
        2. if you think Linux indeed has better usability, any concret example
           of userability is more than gnome desktop    TIA
        \_ From a user point of view, the biggest advantage of Linux is
           all the software it ships with. All of that *can* be added to
           Solaris, but it isn't there out of the box. Another advantage
           of Linux is that for most tasks the actual hardware is faster,
           assuming you are running Intel/AMD. Sun has the advantage for
           problems that fit within the larger CPU cache, but are larger
           then the (smaller) Intel cache.
        \_ No Linux desktop user has any basis for say his desktop is superior
           in usability to the S10 desktop.  This is like the dateless ugly
           girl at the dance picking on the other ugly girl for not having a
           \_ Thanks for erasing my post and adding bullshit at the same
              \_ it's ok, I read it already.  -- OP
           \_ that is why I post this on motd.  If i think i am in a
              position of being objective, i probably can make assessment
              on my own.  having said that, from little things such as
              ls, man command, to the way driver installed on S10, I
              still think Linux is friendlier.
              \_ BWWAAAAHAHAHAHA!  Man, it's 'friendlier' until you have to do
                 low down systems level programming.  Then it's 'friendly'
                 in the same way your 320lb cellmate 'Butch' is friendly.
                 \_ ^320lb cellmate^neurotic 320lb cellmate
              \_ Is that what the server world has really come down to?  One
                 version of 'ls' is "friendlier" (meaning: the way you learned
                 it on the one system) therefore that system is superior?  I'm
                 curious how many non-Linux systems you've used and for how
                 many years each.
                 \_ Your point is correct, but I've just watched (again)
                    a bunch of presentations tearing gaping new assholes in
                    Windows security.  Maybe he should have mentioned this.
                    Usability is actually pretty decent.  -John
        \_ What about drivers? Unless you buy hardware from Sun, you're
           going to have some serious problems with hardware support.  In
           addition, the number of binary-only desktop applications seems to be
           dwindling (for example our users would like to be able to use the
           latest Matlab and Acrobat reader but those aren't available on
           Solaris/x86). In addition, even though Sun includes Gnome, I doubt
           Solaris x86 comes with as many popular open source applications as
           there are in a typical Linux dist (but then I could be wrong, I
           haven't used Sol10 myself yet although Solaris 9 loses hands down in
           this area even though it also comes with Gnome).
           \_ Easy fix for that: just buy Sun hardware.
        \_ I don't understand the desire on the part of some people to attempt
           to compare the quality/friendliness/whatever of the desktop
           environments of what are really server systems.  If you want a nice
           GUI, buy a Mac.  If you want to play games, work in an office, and
           have the largest variety of desktop apps, buy Windows.  If you want
           a server system and you're the one making the buying deicision, the
           question is not "Is this Gnome better than that Gnome?"  The
           question you're answering and the 'debate' you've involved in is
           \_ Someone has to develop the apps for the server system and
              that lucky person often gets to use it as a desktop. It is
              true, though, that using a PC/Mac as one's desktop and
              remotely connecting to the server to code makes sense
              depending on the app being developed.
              \_ Yep, I've got the kind of luck where I have to use CDE
                 at work. As far as desktops go, Linux is easier to use
                 on x86 because there are just a lot more people using it
                 and improving it. Also, I'd have to say GNU utilities are
                 generally superior to default solaris ones.
2005/5/5 [Reference/Law/Court] UID:37530 Activity:high
5/5     Missed this one.  Canadian court says you don't have religious
        \_ Hey whoever edited this:  reply, don't mangle my words.
        \_ It's just part of Canada's culture of life!
2005/5/5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:37531 Activity:high
5/5     Heh.  It's hard to make a pinko happy:
        \_ No, it's easy.  Just put them in charge.  It's more of an "I'm
           always right" ideology.
2005/5/5-6 [Consumer/Audio] UID:37532 Activity:moderate
5/5     Apropos of the post below about super-high end headphones.  If you
        guys are plugging those things into iPods or other MP3 players,
        you might want to take a look at this:
        \_ "super-high end"?  You need to google for a pair of Sony R10's
           or even some of the more expensive Grados or Stax.  The Etymotics
           are decent, but the Shures are nicer.
           \_ I have the Shures E3c, and while they are good for sound
              isolation, loud for the volume, and are very comfortable,
              the Etymotics seem a little better performing and the wire is
              much more flexible.  I recommend a headphone amp with it though
              as it is MUCH less efficient than the Shures.  I like my Shures
              as sound quality isn't as important as me being able to hear
              the music at a reasonable volume.   -rollee
                \_ Oh, and I'd get the E3 pro version over the E3c if only
                   to avoid looking like yet another iPod weenie with
                   white earbuds.
                   \_ None of you guys actually read the link, did you?  My
                      point in posting it was that it's a little silly to
                      buy really high end headphones for an iPod when
                      (as the article demonstrates), the headphone preamps
                      under load on most MP3 players are completely shit.
                      Interestingly, the only preamp that held up under
                      his 60hz square wave test with a load attached was
                      the iPod shuffle.  --op
                      \_ Portable MP3 players can't supply enough current to
                         drive low frequencies into 100 ohm loads?  Man, this
                         is a completely surprising development.  I would never
                         have guessed that.  They should invent something to
                         overcome this.  Oh wait, they have already -- it's
                         called a headphone amp (which has, oh, an input
                         impedance of 100K ohms?).
                         \_ Since you didn't read the article, I'll
                            explain the surprisng part - the iPod shuffle
                            DOES reproduce the 60hz square wave without
                            distortion under load, unlike all the other
                            players he looked at (including the older iPods).
                            Thanks for being an unfriendly stupid git.
                            \_ To quote: "My *main* point ... [is] it's silly
                               to buy really high end headphones for an iPod
                               when ..." [emphasis added].  I responded to
                               what you said was your "main point" by noting
                               that 1. it is a well known problem, and
                               2. there is a simple solution which has been
                               in use for many years.  Whether the Shuffle
                               can drive the one pair of phones used in the
                               article is largely uninteresting, because
                               many of us have headphones that present much
                               more demanding and difficult loads that what
                               has been tested in the experiment.
2005/5/5 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:37533 Activity:nil 66%like:34926
5/5     Today is 05/05/05 whether it's MM/DD/YY, DD/MM/YY, or YY/MM/DD.
        \_ Thanks for sharing.

5/5/    Can anybody think of a good way to save a directory structure without
        the files?  Like say you wanted to create the /usr/share/man
        directory skeleton preserving directory permissions and ownership
        but not keep any files as tar would normally do. I dont want to do
        an tar/untar of everything and then go back and delete the files,
        because we are looking at a few hundred megs in files.  I have
        various klugy ways to do this, but wondering if there was something
        slick with existing utilities. Note: I want to *store* this
        information (in a form which can be used to rebuild the tree
        structure if necessary). I dont want to merely clone an existing
        tree to another part of the disk, minus the files ... although i
        suppose you could clone the tree and tar that skeleton and then
        delete the tree.
        \_ find /usr/share/man -type d | xargs tar rnf man.tar   --mconst
           \_ tar -n will do it, but that isnt an option on all tars.
              i suppose you can do a find -type f > /tmp/exclude and then
              do tar cf man.tar -X /tmp/exclude ... but ugh. any other
              \_ If your tar doesn't support -n, you could use zip:
                 find /usr/share/man -type d | xargs zip -g
                 \_ I suppose zip is a fact of life now in the unix
                    world and i shouldnt feel impure to use it.
2005/5/5-6 [Reference/Religion] UID:37534 Activity:high
5/5     Pretty much sums it up on Evolution vs. "Intelligent Design"
        Bob Novak: Why don't we teach evolution and intelligent design and let
        students figure it out on their own?
        Unknown scientist: Fine. Why don't we teach students the South won the
        civil war and let them figure it out on their own? Why don't we teach
        students that the moon is made of green cheese and let the students
        figure it out on their own?
        \_ It's clear that evolution + religion are sensitive topics that
           should perhaps not be taught in high schools. Let them learn
           chemistry, biology, algebra, calculus, etc, and stop at evolution.
           Leave evolution as advanced topics in college.
        \_ cuz fact is the north won, fact is moon is made of rock..
           evolution is an observation but can't be proven
          \_ Sigh...
          \_ moon is made of rock is an observation but can't be proven
           \_ You know, the role of the schools is to teach science.  It is not
              to lord science over religion, but it also shouldn't back down on
              teaching scientific principles when they conflict with someone's
              religion.  Evolution predicts a number of things, such as common
              ancestry which have led to discoveries in genetics and
              pharmaceuticals. It's a tested theory that has passed the tests
              that have been thrown at it.  Believers need to learn not to fear
              science, and atheists need to stop trying to disprove religion.
              \_ because it's too easy to disprove religion?  -tom
                \_ To the degree that religious claims can be tested, they
                   should be.
                 \- proof has nothing to do with religion. it's like talking
                    about what is a fair voting system to pick my favorite
                    color. --psb
                \_ It is difficult to disprove the statement:
                   "I believe God has a plan"
                   For this, you need to prove God does not exist, or
                   prove God exists and does not have a plan.  God is
                   unfortunately not able to consult.
                 \_ Sorry, you guys have it all backwards. Try "proving
                    religion" first in an empirical fashion, then we'll
                    talk about "disproving religion".
                    \- you are still missing the point. religion isnt about
                       empirical evidence. do you have empirical evidence
                       of the infinitude of primes? "was jesus a real person"
                       is an empircal question. what is the speed of grace
                       in the ether is not. --psb
                       \_ No, you are missing the point. Religion is fine
                          if it merely an abstract study of thoughts. However,
                          it is not fine when people attempt to utilize it to
                          legislate or condone certaint types of real world
                          actions. When you bring religion into the real world,
                          then there is a requisite that it be empirically
                          sound. You don't build a bridge based on pure math,
                          that would be stupid. You build bridges according
                          to structural engineering, which is applied mathematics
                          based on firm empirical footings. We don't legislate
                          or mandate according to fiction, why should we
                          give a free pass to religion?
                          \- Once again: you can ask something like "if the
                             govt worriess less about distributional consequences
                             does that help spur growth" and look for empirical
                             evidence by looking at say the change in gini
                             coeficients vs gdp growth rates. However, what does
                             society owe poor people is not an empirical
                             question. It's not about an enginering optium and
                             arguments about it dont involve Lagrange multi-
                             pliers. Not all *important* questions are empirical.
                             I suppose there is an elevated discussion to be
                             had about what is called "logical positivism" but
                             I dont think that is what you are after. Yes we
                             can all agree bridges falling down on their own is
                             bad and an empirical theory of bridge design is
                             better than buidling bridges through prayer, but
                             to take a locally relevant example: how much money
                             should a society spend on bridges to look cool,
                             how should bridges be funded, what should be the
                             system to decide these question ... those are not
                             empirical questions. is slavery wrong because
                             of empirical reasons or abstract ones? how about
                             free speech? or are these not important questions.
                             i'd hate to think the only thing wrong with
                             racist hiring practices was it may not be an
                             optimal capitalist strategy [see e.g. richard
                             epstein: forbidden grounds].
                             \_ I think you're confusing religion with
                                philosophy. Or rather the behavioral guidance
                                of religion with the factual guidance such as
                                "King David lived in 171482 BC and sired 12824
                                sons". The evolution argument isn't about
                                behavior; it's about history and scientific fact
                                versus "what does religion say is fact".
                             \_ On the contrary, you are arguing that there
                                is no empirical foundation to the concept of
                                morality, but there is, i.e. sociology and
                                psychology. Granted, these areas of study
                                are amorphous, they deal with exceedingly
                                complex questions not easily broken down,
                                but to argue that society itself is not
                                empirical by nature is simply false. We
                                have already established that behavior
                                itself is highly empirical, as is concepts
                                of general asthetics. In fact, one may
                                argue that the concept of religion should
                                be studied in a pure empirical fashion as
                                a sociological question, i.e. why do religions
                                exist and on what basis? One could even argue
                                that religions are merely promulgated worldviews
                                and that society has developed them due to a
                                lack of technology before the advent of
                                science. As for justification of moral values,
                                i.e. should slavery exist or not, there are
                                empirical underpinnings in the sense that humans
                                have this concept of mirroring of minds, and as
                                such we have an emotional basis for not wanting
                                to enslave humans in general, (which is probably
                                why it's easier to enslave africans vs. europeans
                                because africans are different visually to
                                other europeans causing this emotional bond
                                to be weaker). Is nature inherently efficient?
                                Absolutely not. This is mirrored in our society.
                                Is its inefficiency a justification for clouding
                                the issues in the guise of religion? Probably
             \_ Who (except maybe tom) is trying to disprove religion? Is
                this just another one of your straw men?
                \_ I see it all the time.  Tom is just one of them. -emarkp
                   \_ I don't see many web sites disproving religion. I think
                      most scientists are bright enough to not want to get
                      into circuitous and pointless conversation with you
                      ultra-right Christian fundamentalists. I do however
                      I see far more web sites promoting religious solutions
                      over scientific methods (Scientology, voodoo, etc).
                      What do you have to say about that?
                      \- In my experience in a place like berkeley, you see
                         a lot of hostility toward religion or mocking of
                         religion [church is hypocritical, religion people
                         are naive etc] rather than a specific desire to
                         assert it is false, god doesnt exist etc. Of course
                         there are people like Holube, and it is pointless to
                         speculate on their agenda and motivations, although
                         at some point with aaron/holube-ping I'd say it got
                         personal rather than issue directed. As with the
                         anti-SUV camp, there are specific issues worth talking
                         about [like proslytism] but the vague hostility seems
                         pretty intolerant, given that the majority of religous
                         people *around here* are pretty much the live and let
                         live type and the people doing the condemning are
                         selectively tolerant liberal hedonists.
                         \_ However, is it not true that religions themselves
                            are generally intolerant of other religions? Is
                            it not true that there has been much blood spilled
                            in the name of religion? If there is intolerance
                            against religion in general, perhaps it is because
                            religion itself is generally intolerant.
                                     \- I think it is a lot more reasonable
                                        to suppose voting for BUSHCO2004 is
                                        giving tacit support to Abu Graib than
                                        going to Easter Mass is an endorsement
                                        of T. Torquemada. ok tnx.
                            \- is msft intolerant toward linux? how about
                               the mfgrs of cialis toward the mfgrs of viagra?
                               yes, i think we can agree intolerance is
                               often bad. we can agree the problem of
                               relativism is a tough or for societies to
                               relativism is a tough for societies to
                               grapple with. are you intolerant of bestiality?
                               well to be a little less glib: i believe there
                               is much conflict among societies for structural
                               reasons [see e.g. Man, the State and War], and
                               since religion is an important element in
                               societies it's likely to be a proximate
                               explation for a lot of stuff. with the rise of
                               arianism in the 20th cent, is it a surprise
                               they play a role in the story of ww1/ww2?
                               the muslim invaders of india and europe didnt
                               specifically want to pick a fight with hinduism
                               or xtianity, they just wanted stuff. athens and
                               sparta or the greeks and trojans didnt fight
                               over gods or souls but for more material and
                               security reasons. i think material concerns
                               are a big part of the 30yrs war, but i have
                               to think about that and check some things
                               before weighting in on this standard case
                               of a relig war.
2005/5/5 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:37535 Activity:nil
5/5     Is it just because the Windows users are quieter or embarrassed to be
        Windows users, or are they really a minority/plurality on the motd?
        \_ Actually, I've noticed less ranting about Windoze.
2005/5/5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:37536 Activity:moderate
5/5     John Howard, George W. Bush, and now Tony Blair. All sent
        troops, all had protestors to deal with, who swore to bring
        them down "for the people." All now re-elected.
        Muwhahahawa.... War is man's greatest legacy. Forever here.
        \_ You dipshit.  Labour just lost a significant number of seats.
           Blair was not "elected" to anything.  Labour still holds parliament
           but by a slim margin.  It is entirely likely that they may sack
           Blair in favor of a party leader seen as less radioactive.
           Also, Labour's new majority is so slim that they will likely no
           longer be able to prosecute a war that is supported by only
           20% of the British public.
           \_ you lost get over it.
              \_ Hi freeper!  Your stupidity is revealed by your continuing
                 insistence that a prime minister is "elected."  Here's a
                 Yahoo! news article that explains pretty clearly what
                 might happen.  I think that they even use mostly two
                 syllable words, so you're in luck.
        (yahoo! news)
                 \_ Oh do teach me something about a parliamentary
                    government wise one. Tell me about the hostage
                    while you are at it.
        \_ The PM in Spain (Aznar?) didn't get re-elected.  But maybe it's
           because of the explosion days before.
           \_ yeah they tried to blame the communists.
              \_ Basques, actually.  -John
        \_ Whoever wins gets to rewrite history, how things came about and
           how they made the world better. I have no doubt that 50 years from
           now, Blair and Bush will be revered like Gods, for saving earth
           from the tyranny and threat of Al Qaeda and Sadam Hussein
2005/5/5-6 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:37537 Activity:moderate
5/5     I have only owned Macs until getting a cheap pc recently, so I don't
        even know what registry is.  What book/ resource do you recommend
        that will help me become a competent windoze user, starting with
        securing it from virus/attacks?  tia
        \_ get a router for internet access if you havn't done so already,
           PC magazine recently had an article on how to secure your PC. At
           the hardware level you need a firewall/router, then at the software
           level you need anti-virus software, spyware scanner, and firewall.
           and finally you should also keep your windows up to date with
           windows update.
        \_ Don't run programs you don't trust.  Macs are not intrinsicly safer
           in this respect but far fewer malwares exist for Macs.  Also, learn
           to recognize what can include executable code.  A non-exhaustive
           list includes EXE, BAT, COM, SCR, MSI, PIF...
           \_ And beware of e-mail attachments with names like
              \_ Windows' default is 'Hide extensions of known file types',
                 which is really quite dangerous.  You can show all file
                 extensions at Explorer->Tools->Folder Options->View->Advanced
                 \_ Ah, I always wonder who would fall for "foobar.jpg.exe",
                    now I know. I always enable extension display, but just
                    because I like it, not because of security.
        \_ Create a normal user account for yourself that's not in the
           Administrators or the Power Users group. Use the
           Administrator account only to install new software and to
           change settings.
           \_ I wonder how often people actually do this... On unix
              this is a given, but on windows I don't know anyone that
              actually do this.
              \_ Everyone who cares about security and who understands
                 the implications of being logged in as admin. all the time
                 (you don't have to be an uber-geek to see it)
                 \_ Are you saying I don't care about security and ...?  I
                    always auto-login as Administrator, but then, none of my
                    Windows boxes can communicate with the outside world.  I
                    do all my "internet" stuff on FreeBSD boxes and iBook.
              \_ I started doing this a couple months ago.  But now when I log
                 in as non-admin, I can't see in the Start menu some of the
                 programs that I installed as admin.  So I still have to log in
                 as admin to run those programs.
              \_ I don't. Never had a problem. If I had something nasty on my
                 PC it could screw me anyway. Just backup your shit. I guess
                 it might prevent some worm stuff from installing itself if
                 you're worried about that. So, I guess if you're new to the OS
                 it might be a prudent move. Too much hassle for me though.
        \_ Use Firefox instead of IE as much as possible. That's the #1 thing
           that I did when I was a windoze user (I switched to Mac last year)
           \_ this is bullshit. i like firefox but yeah. not like firefox is
              without bugs.
        \_ Why did you get a Windows PC?
2005/5/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37538 Activity:nil
5/5     Libertarians rejoice: President Bush has presided over the largest
        overall increase in inflation-adjusted federal spending since Lyndon
        B. Johnson.
2005/5/5-7 [Computer/HW/Memory] UID:37539 Activity:moderate
5/5     Is it a good idea to buy refurbished flash drives?
        \_ Is it a good idea to be with a refurbished girl?
           \_ No.  Virgins are preferred.
        \_ no moving parts, acceptable.
           \_ Finite number of writes to a flash device.  Of course, the
              number is in the hundreds of thousands (if memory serves),
              so you're likely safe buying refurbished, except in very
              extreme circumstances.
        \_ How do you refurbish a flash device?  -John
           \_ Probably hatever problems people had when they returned them
              were really user error.
2005/5/5-9 [Uncategorized] UID:37540 Activity:nil
5/5     I'd like to open up PDF files and then make annotations on it. What
        are some softwares to you? What do you personall use and recommend? thx
2005/5/5-6 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:37541 Activity:nil
5/5     Anyone has recommendation on parental control software for
        Windows?  Thanks.
2005/5/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:37542 Activity:low
5/5     This has got to make social conservatives happy:
        \_ Screwing around with football related traditions in Texas does not
           strike me as wise for a conservative Texas politician.  I hope
           it bites them in the ass.
2005/5/5-9 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:37543 Activity:low
5/5     Investment time:  I'm looking for a mutual fund that is the best
        approximation of a "Chinese S&P500".  Does such a thing exist?
        Ideally the fund would be based in the US so that it's subject to US
        reporting requirements.
        \_ No. Most Chinese companies are not really in the stock market
           yet, and those that do are so-called "Red Chip" stocks that
           don't really give you many shreholder rights. Stick to Hong
           don't really give you many shareholder rights. Stick to Hong
           Kong and Taiwan for now.
           \_ I did some more research and found that FXI is probably
              the closest to what you want. It is 25 red chip and H
              series shares traded on the Hong Kong stock exchange.
              But the Red Chip stocks are all minority shares in
              companies run by the Chinese government.
        \_ pp is right.  china is doing well, but chinese firms are
           not well regulated and can steal your money.  There are
           a couple of china mutual funds like MCHFX, but they have
           not been performing as well as the Pacific ex-Japan funds,
           which benefit from China's growth but do not have the
           drawbacks of investing directly in China's companies
        \_ I'd recommend Vanguard's Emerging Markets Stock Index Fund.  As of
           March, the top five countries in its holdings by percentage were:
           Korea:               20.2%
           Taiwan:              14.8%
           South Africa:        11.5%
           Brazil:              11.0%
           China:                8.4%
           Thus, taken together, China and Taiwan represent over 1/5 of the
           entire fund's holdings. -dans
2005/5/5-9 [Consumer/Audio] UID:37544 Activity:nil
5/5     I'm using Skype right now. It is a very effective tool and is a good
        replacement for my unreliable cell-phone. So far I've only used
        PC-to-PC version and the latency is a lot lower than Yahoo and MSN
        talk. I think as long as you unblock your firewall and the ping is
        fast (less than 100ms), the quality is pretty good. I haven't used
        Skype-Out (PC to phone) or Skype-In (phone to PC), but my friend said
        it's pretty good. However, Skype-Out to India sucks... I guess the
        latency really gets to them.
        \_ It really depends.  .ch to .au is great, .ch to 300 meters down
           the road is ass.  They also locate a bunch of their major nodes
           in places like Latvia (Lithuania?) to save money, so your mileage
           may vary.  Plus there were a few nifty security problems reported
           with it a while ago.  Unfortunately, interest in pgpfone seems
           to be pretty dead.  -John
        \_ I've used both SkypeIn and SkypeOut.  I found that Skype has
           best sound quality.  SkypeIn comes in second.  SkypeOut is by
           far the worse.  All of them are kind of hit and miss.  Sometimes
           it worked like a charm, other times, it's untolerable.  I mostly
           call US from major cities in China/Taiwan.  The experience of
           calling Papa New Geninue was a nightmare.
2005/5/5-9 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:37545 Activity:low
5/5     I have a Hitachi/IBM Travelstar 80G HD that occasionally makes loud
        clicking noise unrelated to head seek. Today while moving a 150M file
        I started hearing that clicking noise again, and 1 min later my
        computer freezes. I rebooted, tried copying other files and it's fine
        and went back to the same file, and it freezes again. Help?
        \_ Download the diagnostic from the web site.
           You may be able to query S.M.A.R.T. data, but you probably need
           to replace the drive.
           A controlled 2 second sound every 15-30 minutes of idle is normal
           though for new Hitachis.
        \_ Your drive has become defective and will fail "soon".  Move all
           data to working drive ASAP.
           Go to the web site and enter in your HD serial number to
           determine if it is still in warranty.  If so, register for RMA and
           return problem drive.
        \_ I went to the Hitachi web site and they refused to give me a RMA
           until I run their diagnostic tools which returns a specific error
           code they want. Unfortunately my laptop has no
           floppy disk so I had to take it out, buy a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adapter
           and boot from there. However, their tool SUCKS because it would
           code they want. Unfortunately my laptop has no floppy disk so I
           had to take it out, buy a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adapter and boot from
           my desktop. However, their tool SUCKS because it would
           exit for no reason. After dicking around for 2 hours I found out
           that unplugging my CD-ROM made it go through. Then, the sucky tool
           took 2 hours to scan the disk, then went to the repair mode, which
           did the EXACT SAME redundant scan for repair. After 3 hours, it
           gave up and finally gave me an error code. I went back to the
           Hitachi web site, put in the code, and they said they will mail me
           a repaired drive AFTER I send mine in, in 3 weeks. There's no
            "Advanced RMA" like Western Digital, where they send you a new
           HD before they received yours. FUCK HITACHI/IBM DRIVES. FUCK THEIR
           SUCKY TOOLS AND SUPPORT. -op   P.S.
2005/5/5-9 [Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:37546 Activity:nil
05/05   What's your favorite free sound recording program for Mac OS X?
        \_ It's way, way overkill for this task, but I generally use
        \_ I use SparkME, but I'm not sure you can get it anymore.
           CD Spin Doctor (comes w/ Toast) is okay as well.
        \_ Have you checked out Audacity?  Supports OSX, Win32, Linux, among
2005/5/5 [Uncategorized] UID:37547 Activity:nil
5/5     man, that motd.official is too damn long.
2005/5/5-6 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:37548 Activity:high
05/05   How lightsabers work:
        \_ Oh cool! Marshall Brain can write stupid fanboy bullshit too!
           \_ yep, and you can write stupid content-free motd bullshit too!
2005/5/5 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, ERROR, uid:37549, category id '18005#8.55875' has no name! , ] UID:37549 Activity:nil
05/05   What's the Matter with Liberals?
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:May:05 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>