Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:April:08 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2005/4/8 [Uncategorized] UID:37112 Activity:nil
4/7     Dear homeowners in Canada, here is a guide for repairs:
        http://www.allaroundthehouse.com/lib.repr.htm
        And here's one for Americans:
        http://www.stargroup.com/ResidentialInspections.htm?costs.htm~mainFrame
2005/4/8 [Health/Disease/General] UID:37113 Activity:kinda low
4/8     bongs and vaporizers give you lung cancer
        http://my.marijuana.com/pipestudy.php3
                \_ Next thing they will say is that oral sex does
                        too..
                   \_ I better stock up on bran
2005/4/8-9 [Reference/Law/Court, Computer/Rants] UID:37114 Activity:moderate
4/7     Yay outsourcing!  Indian call center employees use customer banking
        information to steal $350,000.
        http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1070986,curpg-1.cms
        \_ I'm sure that would never happen in the U.S.  -tom
           \_ Yeah, but the money would be easier to recover.
              \_ In the Bay Area there was recently a couple of people who
                 worked for BofA who embezzled millions over the years.
                 They're going to jail, but $5 million is still unaccounted
                 for, and very little of the money was recovered.
  http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/03/15/BAG73BPFIJ1.DTL
                 http://tinyurl.com/69dq9 (sfgate.com)
                   -tom
                 \_ Any theft that goes 5 years undetected will be hard to
                    recover.  If they were busted after a month like the
                    Indians I bet most of the money would be found.
                    \_ Maybe if we'd outsourced to India they would have been
                       caught faster.  -tom
                        \_ are you actually pro-outsourcing or just poking
                           holes in her arguments?
                           \_ I am neutral on outsourcing; I think blaming
                              embezzlement on outsourcing is ridiculous.  -tom
                              \_ Not necessarily. Trusting sensitive data to
                                 a 3rd world country is a problematic concept
                                 \- apparetly it is also problematic to
                                    trust ucb.
                                 in itself. The above data point does not prove
                                 it either way, nor does your counterpoint,
                                 but your assertion is plainly just dumb.
                                 \_ There was a previous case where a local
                                    hospital outsourced their medical
                                    transcription to some company, who
                                    outsourced it to another company, who
                                    outsourced it to India, and then stopped
                                    paying their employees, who threatened the
                                    hospital with publicizing medical records
                                    unless she got paid.  While that could
                                    still happen in the US, there's *way* less
                                    recourse when the person is in another
                                    country with a different set of laws.
                                    \- two words: "union carbide"
                                       \_ While that's a local downside of
                                          outsourcing, they got to run the
                                          plant cheaply and with lax safety
                                          procedures, and then ended up paying
                                          way less in damages than if they
                                          had killed Americans.
                                          \- well ok more than two words:
                                             how do you think some indians
                                             feel about foreigners being
                                             outside the law. anybody have
                                             relatives in canada? what do
                                             they think about congressmen
                                             saying "we cant trust crazy
                                             unsafe canadian pharmaceuticals".
                                             \_ *cough*BEXTRA*cough*
2005/4/8 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:37115 Activity:high
4/7     Dear John, please try to take this as something that may give you
        insights. You remind me of a hamster I used to keep in my cage.
        Everyday it happily runs on the hamster wheel. It is oblivious to
        the world outside of his cage, and it doesn't care because it
        is well fed and its surrounding all well taken care of. Perhaps you
        have never lived in poverty and have never seen a lot of crap poor
        and uneducated people deal with in the world, hence you develop
        certain [rigid] point of view. I know you're a well educated guy in
        a middle/upper-middle family and life seems pretty easy going and
        all.  But if only you had experienced real econo/social related
        hardship in your lifetime, perhaps you'd feel differently. Perhaps
        you'd realize how unbalanced wealth, education, and power really
        are. You're like my hamster who doesn't see that human history is
        full of repeated power struggles and that once again, wealth and
        power are to this day continually concentrating in the hands of the
        few. Okay, perhaps you don't care. Why should you? You're well fed
        and happy and you're too busy running your hamster wheel. Now, go
        ahead, give me your best shot and flame me.        -John Troll
        \_ Is this the same John who lived in that shithole known as CZ?
           That doesn't really strike me as the mark of someone who has
           everything handed to him.
        \_ It's a Dear John Letter. Buh-duh Chah!
        \_ With all the raving asshole libertarians on the motd, why the hell
           would you single out John, who appears to be pretty moderate on most
           issues, and to at least have a sense of humor about his raving?
           Are you new to the motd?  A lot of people here clearly do not even
           believe in the existence of a social contract of any kind, and would
           be happy to see the poor die.  As near as I can tell John is not one
           of those.
           \_ The raving asshole libertarians don't sign their names.  -tom
           \_ Because attempts at well-reasoned responses are more threatening
              to the intellectually smug than raving asshole-ness.  Welcome
              to the motd, son.
        \_ Sorry, I'd love to, but I have to catch a plane to Thailand.  Feel
           free to drop me a mail if you'd like to have a nice debate.  (And
           FYI, we weren't very well-off when I was growing up, and I do try
           to travel around a bit, including to less affluent
           places, so I guess I'm aware of what 'hand-to-mouth' means.  I
           think I've made myself successful through effort (and a bit of
           luck, which I accept and appreciate.)  Now please do lay out how
           believing in accountability and efficiency in how my money is spent
           and wanting people to try and work hard and excel in life when they
           can means I want to feed the poor to each other?  -John
                \_ See, as opposed to raving-asshole, John is going to
                   Thailand, to dance away the night on some full-moon-lit
                   beach.  He's just an asshole that raves..! <3, maxmcc
2005/4/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:37116 Activity:moderate
4/8     http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/04/08/iraq.main/index.html
        Coming soon to a conservative blog / radio show near you!
        ... at least four videos in the man's camera show roadside bomb
        attacks on U.S. troops. All had been shot in a manner that suggested
        the cameraman had prior knowledge of the attacks and had scouted a
        shooting location in sight of the target.  "The individual in question
        was carrying press credentials from CBS News. ... " a U.S. military
        statement said Friday.
        \_ Blogs are the new yellow journalism.
        \_ Journalists are not military intelligence.  They never will be.
           You can't expect them to be your spies.
        \_ this is old news to those on conservative forums
           \_ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1379990/posts
2005/4/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:37117 Activity:nil
4/8     Harvesting Illegals
        http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17649
2005/4/8-10 [Computer/SW/Database] UID:37118 Activity:moderate
4/8     Anyone reccomend a good mysql programming tutorial that goes
        beyond the basic select statements ? I would like to be able
        to do a distinct on specific column and then do a count of all
        the rows that have the corresponding values. thanks  --ramberg
        \_ select t.col, count(*) from tble t group by t.col;
           \_ thanks. --ramberg
        \_ MySQL by Paul DuBois (I have the 1st edition).
           \_ Is it the Paul duBois that once worked at Geoworks?
              \_ no, our pld is different.  -tom
                 \_ My main memory of pld is of him napping on keyboards
              \_ I don't know.  I knew a Paul Canavese at Geoworks, but not
                 Paul DuBois.
                 \- It may be the same Paul DuBois who wrote the ORA
                    csh/tcsh book. --psb
                    \_ Are you the Partha Banerjee in the ORA csh/tcsh book?
        \_ You might want to check out O'Reilly's SQL in a Nutshell book.
           It's not MySQL specific, but it manages to cover SQL extensively,
           and documents how the dialects vary for MySQL, Postgres, Oracale,
           and several others. -dans
           \_ I checked out the Mysql book  via orielly's safari.  I
              did not see mentioned  anything in the way of looping
              variables or being able to programmtically specify tables
              e.g. database a has a table column  that  gives you the table
              name. Is there a way to search through all of the tables in a
              db or is this something people normally program ?  I am trying
              to figure what I can do on the mysql command line and what I
              need to go into perl dbi/dbd to do.
              \_ [nb Formatting fixed] So what you're talking about is table
                  metadata.  I know mysql has commands like describe table you
                  can use to see the schema for a table, look through the
                  mysql docs on mysql.  They're really well written, thorough,
                  and up to date.  I suspect you can get at the table metadata
                  via the DBI, but don't know how as I have not written
                  anything where I needed to do so.  I'm curious though, what
                  kind of app are you writing where you don't know database
                  schema at development time?  Frequently querying table
                  metadata in your program logic seems like an odd way of
                  doing things to me (I may be wrong here, I'm certainly no
                  database guru. -dans
8       Harvesting Illegals
        http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17649
2005/4/8-9 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux, Computer/HW] UID:37119 Activity:nil
4/8     PLEASE HELP!  I work in a very linux friendly environment.  All of my
        servers are Unix/linux.  But some of the execs (including the ceo)
        use outlook and get a lot of use out of their blackberries.  Presently
        I am feeling pressure to get an MS Exchange Server!
        (blackberry edition).  This pressure is very likely to increase.
        Is there no linux based solution that well integrates mail and
        calendaring (blackberry integration would be nice too, but if I just
        had a good mail/calender server, I think I could stem the rising tide.
            \_ Are you talking client or server ?  If it is client:
        you could consider using kontact http://kontact.org
        \_ I'm guessing he's asking about the server.  How about Novell
           Evolution?  I don't know how far it has come, but I believe its
           goal is to replace Exchange Servers.
        \_ The 2/14/05 issue of InfoWorld has a review on linux mail server
           migration, where they review software that can serve Outlook
           clients. The stuff they reviewed are Gordano Messaging Server,
           Novell Suse Linux Openexchange, Scalix, and CommuniGate Pro.
        \_ We use Oracle Exchange Server. Unfortunately, I cannot
           recommend it. -ausman
2005/4/8-10 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:37120 Activity:very high
4/8     First Bolemic Lady and now a woman in Georgia is being starved to death.  In
        this woman's case however the woman's living will is being ignored.
        She's not in a persistenet vegitative state nor is she comatose.  The
        granddaughter says  "She has glaucoma and now this heart problem, and
        who would want to live with disabilities like these?"  She's also
        prayed about it apparently and says "Grandmama is old and I think it is
        time she went home to Jesus."
        \_ She's prayed about it...who are we to doubt the will of Jesus? -tom
           \_ Yeah, how would you feel as an atheist if someone prayed for you
              and decided you were ready to die? -emarkp
               \_ If I was incapable of understanding what was going on, I
                  don't think I'd feel much about it.  Why do you think the
                  grandmother is an atheist?  -tom
                  \_ I don't know if she's an atheist, but I'm fairly confident
                     that you are.  And the question was directed to you, not
                     her. -emarkp
                     \_ I'll ask again, since you obviously have infinite free
                        time: what the FUCK is your point?  Aside from the
                        fact that stirring up mindless bile among your
                        fellow social conservatives helps bring about your
                        theocracy, why are you so concerned with other
                        people's business?  Maybe you should take heed of
                        the fact that if Christian fundamentalists really do
                        take over this country, mormons won't fare any better
                        than us liberal athiests.
                        \_ The irony here is palpable.  I'm not for a
                           democratic theocracy.  I don't like the idea of
                           people being starved to death when their wishes are
                           unknown or known to be against dying. -emarkp
                        \_ Don't argue with him, tom. Bolemic Lady's probably already
                           a Mormon by now thanks to posthumous baptism. JPII
                           too most likely too by now.
                           \_ Well, if you're really not interested in
                              turning this country into a far-right theocracy,
                              you should re-think some things.  Do you really
                              not see what's going on here?  The media circuses
                              surrounding various moral issues is to soften up
                              appointments in May.  It is all part of a
                              so that the far right can force their extremist
                              have occured daily forever.  Doesn't the timing
                              of this explosion of politics seem just the
                              tiniest bit odd to you?  Think about it.  Based
                              on your other posts, I don't think you are an
                              evil guy, but I'm afraid that you have decided
                              to act as a tool of evil by spouting the party
                              line of the far-right theocrats.
                        \_ Don't argue with him, tom. Terri's probably
                           already a Mormon by now thanks to posthumous
                           baptism. JPII too most likely too by now.
                           \_ Aaron!?! You're back!  And you can't spell
                              "bulimic". -emarkp
                     \_ So you admit that your question was nothing but a
                        red herring?  OK, thanks.  I already answered your
                        question for me, and it added absolutely nothing to
                        the discussion.
                        I certainly don't see how someone whose brain and
                        bodily systems are all in an advanced state of
                        failure can think that Jesus wants her to live.  -tom
                        \_ Um, this subthread was about the Georgia woman, who
                           doesn't have the problems you describe. -emarkp
                           \_ yes, she does.   -tom
                              \_ Where does any story say that? -emarkp
               \_ Then it'd be like that six month old boy that a hospital
                  put to death in Texas, despite the pleas from this mother!
                  CULTURE OF LIFE!!
                  \_ obTroll:  Remind me again how many people Texas knocks
                     off every year?  Oh, that's different.  -John
          The only online story I can find about
        it is here: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43688
        Please don't dismiss it just because it's worldnetdaily.  I'll happily
        eat my words if the facts turn out to be different, but I've heard a
        phone conversation with Ken Mullinax (the elderly woman's nephew).  You
        can listen to it free here (windows media unfortunately):
        http://www.glennbeck.com/audio/free-audio.shtml (first link)
        -emarkp
        \_ Stop saying "starved to death". They are not being starved to death.
           Their disease process is killing them, not starvation.
           \_ What you meant to say was, most neurologists say a PVS patient
              doesn't suffer, since they have no perception of pain.
           \_ Wow, your ignorance is stunning.  What "disease" did "they" have?
              -emarkp
                \_ OK I was referring to Terri, not your new person.
                   \_ What "disease" did Terri have? -emarkp
                \_ OK I was referring to Bolemic Lady, not your new person.
                   \_ What "disease" did Bolemic Lady have? -emarkp
                        \_ Oh I don't know, maybe some shit called necrosis
                           rotting away in her brain from old events due to
                           her eating disorder. She was as close to dead
                           as possible, so don't even try to say she was
                           healthy. The only reason you and others think
                           she was functioning was because her eyes were
                           open in a creepy sort of way, fooling you into
                           believing she was engaging you. Yeah, the lack
                           of food tipped the scales finally, but that was
                           hardly a major blow. Starvation was the least of
                           her worries.
                           \_ She only needed food and water to survive, just
                              like you and me.  Also, I've never seen proof of
                              any eating disorder.  It's commonly noted, but
                              her family disputes that it was ever established.
                              Can you point to proof of her eating disorder?
                              -emarkp
                              \_ OK, how can we prove anything then? This
                                 actually brings up a very good point, which is
                                 that NONE of her situation is for us to
                                 discuss. And by us I mean anyone that isn't
                                 her, her husband, her parents, and her medical
                                 team (which means no dumbass lawmakers and
                                 politicians of course). The issue of one's end
                                 of life is an extremely personal issue that is
                                 only relevant to the few select people I
                                 mentioned, for they are the ONLY ones that
                                 know the true situation in all its intimate
                                 and fine detail. This is not our business (and
                                 it never was), so let's stop discussing it.
                                 \_ The *real* question in the issue is why did
                                    her husband have the only vote when there
                                    was doubt about her wishes.  *That's* what
                                    we need to discuss.  If Terri had left
                                    we need to discuss.  If Bolemic Lady had left
                                    written instructions, I'd have no beef.
                                    Though it may not have helped her, as it
                                    hasn't for the woman in Georgia. -emarkp
                                    \_ For CHRISSAKE!  He didn't have the only
                                       fucking vote.  There were multiple
                                       relations who testified to her wishes.
                                       Her parents had their day in court.
                                       The system did its job.  Get the hell
                                       over it.
                                       \_ No, the court system determined that
                                          he had the only vote.  I don't
                                          understand how the judge did that.
                                          -emarkp
                                          \_ Because he was 1) her husband,
                                             2) her legal guardian, and 3) when
                                             challenged, the judge decided not
                                             to change the guardianship.  And
                                             if you start screaming about his
                                             "infidelity" again, we've been
                                             through it.  Bury this dead horse.
        \_ Do you have a point?
        \_ Now wouldn't have it been a lot better if protestors rallied to this
           person's cause instead of Terri's?
           \_ Terri's story had more time to build up, but I'd say yes, that
           person's cause instead of Bolemic Lady's?
           \_ Bolemic Lady's story had more time to build up, but I'd say yes, that
           person's cause instead of Anorexia's?
           \_ Anorexia's story had more time to build up, but I'd say yes, that
              this is more important than her case because (if the facts are
              right) they're killing someone against her express wishes.
              -emarkp
        \_ If this is indeed true, and someone wrongly claimed to have power
           of attourney, this is bad, and should come to legal trouble for the
           hospice and for the claimant to PoA. However, as the only sources so
           far are wnd and a few right leaning blogs, I'll continue to be
           skeptical. --scotsman
           \_ Did you listen to the audio?
              \_ no.  but it appears to be an interview from someone who made
                 plenty of hay out of schiavo.  Get a journalist on the case
                 and i'll lose some skepticism.  check the validity of the
                 will. check out the PoA claims.  strip the hysterics and give
                 me the facts.
                 \_ Ah.  So you're not willing to evaluate the case because
                    Beck was in the don't-starve-Terri camp?  Nice piece of
                    Beck was in the don't-starve-Bolemic Lady camp?  Nice piece of
                    work. -emarkp
                    \_ Uh, no, i'm not willing to evaluate the case because
                       everything you've posted and everything on google news
                       about it is from interested parties. Find me a couple
                       disinterested observers as sources, and I'll consider
                       it.  For now it feels like an attempted echo chamber.
                       \_ Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon... Manny Mota....
                    \_ People who lose credibility often find it tough
                       to regain anyones trust. The whole Terri Schiavo
                       crowd, by their pointless campaign to smear her
                       husband by spreading a bunch of lies, has lost
                       my trust and respect.
        \_ Now here is a non-WND link: link:csua.org/u/bm7 -emarkp
           \_ I don't doubt that even if this particular story is skewed,
              in the real world stuff like "Kid doesn't want to take care
              of granny anymore for [laziness|greed|revenge|stupidity] and
              sticks it to granny against her expressed wishes" is not new to
              the 21st century.
              \_ what is new is the idea that random nutjobs in Utah think
                 they should have something to do with the decision.  -tom
                 \_ What does Utah have to do with this? -emarkp
                    \_ Dum dum dum dum dum...
        \_ You mean you just discovered that people starve to death in America?
           This kind of stuff has been going on for a long time.
        \_ Hey 80 col Nazi!  You keep deleting lines that are 79 or 80 chars.
           What's your problem?  -emarkp
           \_ Yeah, doesn't he know that [79 columns|3 out of 4 neurologists
              who have done a neurological exam and say she's PVS for 12+
              years] is acceptable to most people?  [80 columns which causes
              automatic linebreaks|evil grandkid ignoring living will] crosses
              a line, though.
        \_ emarkp, do you realize all of the following:
           (1) In Feb 2000, the court determined "by clear and convincing
           evidence that Mrs. Schiavo would then elect to cease
           evidence that Mrs. Bolemic Lady would then elect to cease
           evidence that Mrs. Terri would then elect to cease
           life-prolonging procedures if she were competent to make her own
           decision".
           (2) Her parents appealed.
           (3) The Florida appeals court affirmed the decision in Jan 2001.
           (4) The Florida appeals court denied re-hearing in Feb 2001.
           (5) The Florida Supreme Court denied review of the case in Apr 2001.
           (6) Since then there have been multiple motions claiming new
           evidence, but all the courts have come back leaving the original
           decision intact.
           Sure, innocents are executed in capital crimes.  Just as well,
           Terri Schiavo might be a case where the court is wrong.  And, I can
           this might be a case where the court is wrong.  And, I can
           see how it would make sense to create a law that said you can't
           kill someone in a PVS unless they have put it in writing.  I can
           also see how it would make sense to have a law that says you can't
           kill a criminal unless there is no doubt (as opposed to beyond a
           reasonable doubt) that person committed a capital crime.  Your
           focus should be on creating the former law, and you do a great
           disservice to your cause by not clearly stating this.  In addition
           to saying "If Terri had left written instructions, I'd have no
           to saying "If Bolemic Lady had left written instructions, I'd have no
           beef", you should also say, "I support a law requiring such".  Stop
           complaining about the effects of the rules -- petition to change
           the rules.
           the rules. -jctwu
           \_ You do know that this was a judicial review of Judge Greer's
              findings of fact, right?  There was no 'de novo' review of the
              case.  Oh, and sign your name. -emarkp
              \_ Because congress is not allowed to just create new
                 jurisdictions.  Separation of powers.  The judge rightly
                 smacked congress down for it.
                 \_ This is not strictly correct. Art. 3 allows congress
                    to enact legislation that provides jurisdiction for
                    fed cts. The jurisdiction of fed cts is far more
                    limited than what the framers allowed in Art. 3.
                    Please note that the judges did not rule on whether
                    the act of congress creating jurisdiction for Bolemic Lady's
                    the act of congress creating jurisdiction for Terri's
                    case to be heard in fed ct was constitutional. Rather
                    he ruled on the temp restraining order that was sought
                    to keep Bolemic Lady alive. In order to be granted a TRO the
                    to keep Terri alive. In order to be granted a TRO the
                    party seeking it must show that they will most likely
                    previal at trial. The parents could not show this so
                    the lost the motion.
              \_ What is "this"?  Are you referring to (3)-(5), or the de novo
                 review that federal courts were ordered by law to conduct?
                 Before you answer, I urge you to consider carefully what I've
                 already written.  Why argue when we might already agree on
                 some key points? -jctwu
                 \_ "Ordered by law"...  Heheh.  The judge would have had a
                    hard time deciding which grounds to toss that law out on.
                    It's a veritable garden of unconstitutionality.
              \_ The standard for review of findings of facts by a ct of
                 appeals is clear error. The only other way to make new
                 findings of fact is to conduct a new trial.
                 While it can be argued that congress authorized this,
                 the text of the statute is not clear. The version I
                 read simply says 'de novo', it does not state whether
                 this is a new trial or merely review of the record. If
                 it is review of the record, then the dist ct only had
                 the power to review the record and reverse legal
                 conclusions or findings of fact that were clearly
                 erroneous; the dist ct would have to assume that the
                 trial ct's findings of facts were largely true.
                 Please also see above re the TRO. The parents did not
                 meet the requirements to be granted a TRO (which has
                 nothing to do w/ the standard of review).
                 Terri's case was handled properly w/in the law, even
                 if the judges didn't like the outcome, they were
                 constrained to act as they did. If they were to do
                 otherwise, all stability would be lost.
                 If the results in this case are not to your liking,
                 the proper course of action is to have statutes (fed
                 or state) enacted to ensure a different result.
                 --ranga
                 \_ yeah, like in Texas where Bush enacted a statute that
                    lets hospitals kill patients over the objections of
                    their caregivers.  -tom
                    \_ I do not know the legislative history of the
                       the Texas statute that you mention, however
                       statutes are normally enacted by the legislature
                       and signed into law by the Gov. Assuming that
                       this statute became law in that fashion, the
                       statute can be taken as an expression of the
                       views of the majority of the citizen of Texas
                       by their elected representatives. Perhaps the
                       views of the citizen differ from those of the
                       caregivers, but why should the views of the
                       caregivers be given precedence over those of
                       the general public?
                       If the enactment of such a statute bothers you
                       (1) don't live in Texas or (2) work to elect
                       people who hold other views.
                        \_ What kind of nonsense is this.  So when the
                           legislature of Indiana defined Pi to be 4,
                           that was a good thing since it was the will
                           of the people?
                           \_ No, because the bible states it should be 3.
                              Heretic!
                           \_ The value of pi is a fact, community
                              opinion doesn't define the value of
                              pi, nature does. In contrast, the
                              issue of how to handle end of life
                              cases are largely based on societal
                              conventions/opinion and are best
                              handled by the legislative process.
                              BTW, if pi were defined as 4, it
                              just means that we have to change
                              the rest of our number system, there
                              is nothing holy about 3.14159...
                              \_ If smart was defined as stupid, you would
                                 be smart.
                           \_ Get your facts right.  That never happened.
                              http://www.snopes.com/religion/pi.htm
                    \_ I'd be willing to bet that if Terri hadn't been white
                       and photogenic, we'd never have heard of her.
2005/4/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Finance/Investment] UID:37121 Activity:nil
4/8     Dear motd guy who pointed the census graph, I imported data to
        Excel and it's clear to me that the top 5% are gaining yearly income
        at a rate much faster rate than the poorest. The exaggerated data point
        is 1992 when the top 5% richest got 24.3% increase in income and the
        poorest got a measly 1.57%. I mean, we can stop arguing whether income
        gap is increasing or not because clearly it is. I mean, what is your
        stance on this now? Do we start arguing whether income gap is a good
        thing or not?      FYI: http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/f03.html
        I think that our argument is becoming more and more similar to M$
        lawsuits. First M$ lawyers argue that they don't have a monopoly,
        and when they failed to convince people otherwise they argue that
        monopoly is GOOD for the industry (by unifying standards, etc).
        \_ I thought the argument was about whose fault it was (Clinton's).
           \_ How so? The chart showed the gap growing steadily over the last
              twenty five years. Note that I am not discounting this line of
              reasoning, as the hollowness of the Clinton boom shows up in
              other sources. This source did not lead me to that conclusion,
              though. -- ulysses
           \_ Perhaps, but it's easier to say there's a growing disparity
              in wealth (like, no, really?) than to assign blame for it to
              Clinton.
              \_ Because one is true, and the other is trollish.
        \_ What this may be missing is that the top 5% richest people are
           not always the same people. People's income (and wealth, which
           is not the same) goes up and down over time. What if I said
           that the gap was increasing, but that 10 years from now the
           people in the bottom 5% would be in the top 5%? (Not true, but
           illustrating the point.) Would the gap matter so much? To me,
           what matters most is turnover. How hard is it to get into the
           top x% and how hard is it to stay there? Historically, wealthy
           people lose their wealth within 3 generations. There is pretty
           good wealth turnover in this country unlike in, say, Europe.
           \_ If you lose your wealth after only 3 generations, then it means
              that you're either not Jews or Asian. In another word, just
              another regular Joe white trash.
              \- Check out this book (Perfectly Legal): http://csua.org/u/bmb
                 It is a bit tendentious, but much of the stuff is really
                 disturbing and some of the statistics are so over the top
                 [like in wealth distribution] it's not a matter of marginal
                 interpretation. BTW, reading this during tax season can
                 lead to depression. --psb
                 \_ "Perfectly Legal, The Covert Campaign to Rig Our Tax
                     System to Benefit the Super Rich - and Cheat Everybody
                     Else". Partha, you already know this is happening, and
                    so does everyone else. Why should I spend $16 on Amazon
                    (who by the way donates 1/2 mil to Republicans) to read
                    about something I already know is happening?
                    \- then dont buy/read it. or get it from the lib. --psb
                 \_ Is this an anti-Republican, pro-Democrat book in disguise?
              \_ Oddly enough, it's an old Chinese proverb that wealth doesn't
                 last pass 3 generations.
        \_ Look jackass, I pointed out that graph to prove to you that
           your contention that the poor got poorer during the Clinton
           Administration was demonstratably false. I never said anything
           about the rich getting richer. That is your trip. I even agreed
           with you. Keep ranting on about it if it makes you feel better.
2005/4/8 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:37122 Activity:low
4/8     Evil AP:   "The Republican president's job approval is at 44 percent,
                   with 54 percent disapproving."
        Holy CNN:  "In the poll taken Friday and Saturday, Bush's job-approval
         /Gallup   rating is 48%, 3 percentage points higher than in mid-March.
                   His standing on personal characteristics such as
                   trustworthiness remains above 50%."
        \_ Regarding AP, only 1% is neutral or has no opinion?  Hard to
           believe.
           \_ Evil AP:
              "Overall, do you approve, disapprove or have mixed feelings
              about the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president?"
              If "mixed feelings" or not sure: "If you had to choose, do you
              lean more toward approve or disapprove?"
              Holy CNN/Gallup:
              "Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is
              handling his job as president?"
              \_ So AP forces people to make choices.
                 \_ The idea is to get the guy a higher approval rate.
                    Doesn't that make sense?
                    Independent of this, it is natural to assume (without
                    any evidence, usually) that the AP has liberal leaning
                    staffers, and CNN has pro-administration leaning staffers.
                    Following this reasoning, the true approval rating is
                    between 44 and 48%.
2005/4/8 [Finance/CC] UID:37123 Activity:nil
4/8     Is there any downside to setting your fraud alert flag at the credit
        agency even if there's no report that you've been compromised?
        \_ You may get rejected for 'unusual' purchases, meaning locations
           and types of stores that don't fit your usual patterns.
           \_ I assume you mean for credit card purchases.  Won't a call to
              the credit card issuer clear that up?  More difficult to do
              overseas, but trivial domestically in this cell phone age.  Seems
              like a small price for stronger security.
              \_ Yes it would clear it up, but you've now turned a 2-minute
                 purchase into a half hour conference call.
                 \_ I would think that "unusual" purchases are by definition
                    "uncommon".
        \_ When I visited China 1.5 years ago I noticed that their credit cards
           have passwords, much like ATM cards have PIN's.  Is it just
           because Americans are lazy and forgetful that we don't have that?
                   \_ Considering how much I hear that crime is
                      expanding in china; it makes sense. I hear  from a
                      friend of mine that the "entertainment" industry is
                      doing especially well.
           \_ We have passwords on our credit cards too.  It's called yermom's
              maiden name.
              \_ Nobody ever asks for that when I make purchases.
           \_ Some gas pumps ask for ZIP code, althought that's not very useful
              since crooks can just try the ZIP code of wherever they steal the
              cards.
        \_ you will have to go through more loopholes for things like
           loan applications, lines of credit, new credit cards, auto
           financing and the like.  Basically, any application for new
           or more credit.
           \_ But isn't it *good* if credit applications require stronger
              proof?  Besides, can't you just remove the flag before you
              know you're going to apply for something, and then just reset
              the flag afterwards?  Setting the flag is free, after all.
              \_ in other words, you're not disagreeing with me.
                 \_ Since the original post asked for "any downside", I
                    assumed you would consider "more loopholes[sic]" to be a
                    downside.  In that sense, I am not sure I agree, as my
                    post indicated.
2005/4/8-10 [Recreation/Food/Alcohol, Recreation/Food] UID:37124 Activity:moderate
4/8     Which is best?  Suppenkuche, Walzwerk, or Schnitzelhaus?
              \-Der Wienerschnitzel on San Pablo.
        \_ Are all three in SF?  Speisekammer in Alameda is also decent.
           Only been to Suppenkuche and Speisekammer, both were quite
           good (but Suppenkuche was superior, I though)
           \_ Enlighten us mere mortals: WTF are you talking about ?
              \_ German restaurants.
           \_ Huh, it seems Spieskammer is owned by a half-owner of
              Suppenkuche.
        \_ I've never been to a German restaurant, what is it like? The
           closest I've ever gotten is Top-Dog where I eat semi-Germananic
           frank. Yes, it's pathetic. What exactly do you get at German
           restaurants besides frank and lager? Do you get to see hot robust
           German blond waitresses with thick Bulvarian accent?
           \_ Der Wienerschnitzel, for one.  Also potato pancakes and hearty
              dark German lagers that are nothing like American lagers.
              \- you can get your meat stuffed with meat at Suppenkuche
                 \_ Is that homosexual code?
                    \- du bist eine hasa
                       \_ Ach, mein Leben!  -John
                          \_ Der Worte sind genug gewechselt,
                             lasst mich auch endlich Taten sehn!
           \_ there are regional variants, i.e. fish from the coastal
              areas and wimpy bland sausage from the alps, but classics
              found in the u.s. include roulade (meat or cabbage rolls
              w/ meaty stuffing), hot potato salad, and sauerbraten
              (roast beef marinated for many days in wine vinegar).
              of course many sausages, cabbage variants, soups,
              and chunks of fatty roated meat.  all go well w/ beer.
2017/09/21 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:April:08 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>