3/27    I have a proposal for you Christians and Pro-Lifers. Instead of
        bitching and whining, how about setting up a "Save Terri Fund", where
        you donate a large portion of your church money to the Terri fund so
        that you can 1) bribe Michael and 2) pay for medical expenses? I mean,
        this whole thing is about MONEY right? Stop building really nice super
        mega churches, spend some of that money on Terri.
        \_ Um, people *have* tried to give Michael money.  By his count it's
           over $15M.
        \_ I'm neither a Christian nor a pro-lifer, but this is a completely
           nonsensical statement. This whole thing is NOT about money. If
           you honestly believed that then you're a moron. This whole thing
           is about a whacky belief system that insists a brain-dead shell
           of a human should be allowed to be artificially maintained
           ad nauseum. I'm not quite sure why this is "christian" since
           if you believe in god, you'd figure that this is basically god's
           way of telling you that your time is up. Keeping people on earth
           indefinitely through life support sure as hell doesn't sound
           very christian, ethical, or humane. In fact, it's rather ironic
           that it isn't the atheists who insist on letting Terri continue
           on, since if there's no god, there's no after life, and keeping
           Terri alive indefinitely theoretically improves her chances of
           getting some sort of future miracle treatment that would cure
           her. Chances of that are obviously virtually nil, but it's an
           illustration on how whacky reasoning can get you to any conclusion
           you want.
           \_ anti-Christian troll alert. I hope to see a good rebutal from
              our good mannered Christian/Mormon friend(s) on motd.
           \_ Any result is in God's plan, right?
        \_ many if not most of Terri's advocates only want her to receive
           due process, which she obviously has not.  There are too many
           conflicts of interest between the only judge who actually
           reviewed the case, the lawyer Felos, and Michael.  I don't
           understand how after all of the publicity given to this case
           you can't see the glaring inconsistencies in the order of
           her execution.  When the only witness to her wish to die
           contradicts himself repeatedly, one might expect a more
           thorough investigation.
           \_ I can't think of ANYONE who has received more due process than
              Terri Schiavo.  THIRTY court decisions, state and federal, EVERY
              one of them ruling
              for Michael Schiavo, and against the parents.  This is unusual
              since usually this many court cases will have at least ONE
              ruling that goes against the others.  The "due process" the
              "Culture of Life" supporters want is for her to be hooked up to
              machines until she dies of old age.  And of course, no mention
              is made by them of the DOZENS of people who could have been
              helped with the tens of millions of dollars in legal fees and
              medical care, resources and time wasted on keeping this brain
              stem functioning.  People who could actually get better and
              live a meaningful life because of being healed.
              one of them ruling for Michael Schiavo, and against the
              parents.  This is unusual since usually this many court cases
              will have at least ONE ruling that goes against the others.
              The "due process" the "Culture of Life" supporters want is for
              her to be hooked up to machines until she dies of old age.
              And of course, no mention is made by them of the DOZENS of
              people who could have been helped with the tens of millions of
              dollars in legal fees and medical care, resources and time
              wasted on keeping this brain stem functioning.  People who
              could actually get better and live a meaningful life because
              of being healed.
              \_ her case was only reviewed in full once, by one judge.
                 This judge received campaign contributions from Felos.
                 This judge is legally blind.
                 All of the others were decided in 90 minutes, not de novo.
                 How can a judge review the evidence from a 15 year case
                 in 90 minutes when it is a life and death matter?
                 I think you are blissfully ignorant about the facts
                 surrounding her sentence.  David Boeis
                 and Derschowitz support a de novo review, doesn't that
                 tell you something.  Clearly you understand the
                 significance and precedent setting nature of this case,
                 which is why you've become so upset.  All that most are asking
                 is a full vetting of the facts.
                 surrounding her sentence.  David Boeis and Derschowitz
                 support a de novo review, doesn't that tell you something.
                 Clearly you understand the significance and precedent
                 setting nature of this case, which is why you've become so
                 upset.  All that most are asking is a full vetting of the
                 facts.
                 \_ Upon what basis do you call this precedent setting?  This
                    sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME.  Thousands of families
                    have to make this decision every year.  I'm sure in
                    hundreds of those cases, there are disputes which end up
                    in the courts.  The only precedent set here is the level
                    of hypocrisy in our federal legislature.
                 \_ The majority of America does not agree with your assessment
                    \_ Bullshit.
                       \_ No, really.
                          \_ No, bullshit.  You're are misrepresenting polls,
                             etc.
                                \_ Even evangelical Christians think the
                                   courts have it right.  The polls are
                                   not being misrepresented, the courts did not
                                   screw up -- you are just wrong -- but I
                                   know no FACTS will convince you of this.
                                   Her cerebral cortex is just spinal fluid
                                   but fundies want to claim she is "minimally
                                   conscious" thanks to 4+ hours of footage
                                   edited Oliver Stone-style into 4 minutes
                                   of propaganda.  At least in a few
                                   days this will be all over, an autopsy
                                   will show her brain was just mush, and
                                   the fundies can find the next illogical
                                   position to take and rant about.
                 \_ Actually what was decided in 90 mins is whether a
                    TRO should be granted or not. A TRO is designed to
                    maintain/change the status quo so that one party
                    is not unduly damaged while the case proceeds. In
                    deciding whether a TRO can be granted the judge
                    needs to see whether the party seeking the TRO
                    has a strong change of winning at trial. In this
                    case, there was basically no chance of winning at
                    trial based on the record presented to the judge
                    (which is all the judge can use at this stage to
                    determine if a TRO can be granted), thus refusal
                    of the TRO was appropriate.
                    There is also some ambiguity about what exactly
                    the judge is authorized to do by the act of
                    congress. The act does not specify de novo trial.
                    It simply specifies de novo. This could be de
                    novo review which means that the judge cannot
                    consider new evidence but must rely only on the
                    record as presented. Also keep in mind that every
                    fed judge in the middle dist of FL and all of
                    their law clerks, &c. have probably been reviewing
                    the record for some time since it looked like
                    congress was going to do something dumb, thus
                    they probably had a good idea about how to rule
                    on various motions, such as a TRO.

3/27    So I'm really confused about the Schiavo case. Is there a motivation
        for Michael to see his wife die? Is it insurance money or something?
        In another word, what's in it for Michael? I mean, it doesn't cost him
        anything to keep the feeding tube or anything, and if anything, it
        would cost him MORE to remove the feeding tube, no?
        \_ It's called caring about the ones you loved and respecting their
           last wishes.
           \_ which have never been established.  That is the whole point,
              how many times does this have to be repeated?
                \_ It has been established 30 times in the courts.  How
                   many times does this need to be repeated?
                   \_ see above
                   \_ Until the courts come up with a descision the poster
                      agrees with.  It's not due process if you lose!

3/28    Warrent Buffett isn't investing, why should you?
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151542,00.html
        \_ No man, stocks will always go up, and housing is NOT overvalued,
           and things will always be more expensive in the future so you
           have to buy now! There is no bubble, believe me!
        \_ Warren Buffett is investing; unlike average investors, he is
           able to buy companies instead of stocks.  -tom [BRKb holder]
           \_ yea, but he also put $20 billion in foreign short term
              bonds, meaning he thinks dollar will fall?  also, the
              article said he couldn't find any good companies to buy.
              \_ I happen to agree that there aren't a lot of bargains out
                 there in the US stock market, and I've also put some money
                 in overseas investments.  But that's just my style (and
                 Buffett's); there are plenty of reputable money managers
                 who think otherwise.  -tom
              \_ $20B is chump change for WB. He is just hedging.
                 \_ entire berk's market cap is only like $130B.
                    $20B ain't no "chump change".
                    \_ 15% of his holdings. I have way more than that
                       in overseas stocks.

3/27    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4387055.stm
        http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=67229
        http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050328/world.htm
        http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/mar/26pak1.htm
        U.S. to sell fighter jets to both Pakistan and India. How much
        revenue will this generate and reduce the deficit? If it is a
        good business model, maybe we should export more...
        \_ US is smart.  Sell some F16s to Paki to annoy India, then
           tell them, why are you so pissed off?  we can sell you
           some too.
           \_ not just that, but sell them 2nd string fighter tech.
        \_ We sold semi-modern fighers to the Shah of Iran, but when he was
           overthrown we stopped providing any replacement parts and
           maintanance help.
           \_ I remember watching some cable tv show that also said some
              of the importanat electronic parts "mysteriously
              disappeared" from the fighters when the techs left the
              country.
        \_ An F16 will be sold at $50-60mil tops. Do the math. India has
           announced a tender to purchase a large quantity of light fighter
           jets to replace their pre-historic Mig-21s. So far, the
           makers of F16, Grippen, Mig-29, and Mirage F2000 have submitted
           proposals.

3/28    I'm going back to Korea for a few weeks soon, and it made me
        wonder.  What does the motd think about eating dog meat? -jrleek
        \_ bible says you can eat it.
        \_ whatever.  you should go hang out with dudes who blame
           the DMZ on the US and report back.
           \_ What would you like to know about them?  Do you have some
              questions I should ask? -jrleek
        \_ I've tried it once, at a Korean rest. in Beijing.  Pungent and
           strong, kind of reminded me of venison.  Would I try it again?
           No.  -nivra
           \_ Chinese restaurant serve dog meat too.
        \_ Mmmm, tasty. -dans
        \_ If you want to do it as a lark go for it. Like most predator
           meats, it's not appealing to most palates.
        \_ tastes like pussy.

3/28    Can we get over this Schiavo case already?  It gets really boring.

3/28    Block FAUX News: http://tinyurl.com/5av72
        \_ I've got to wonder about freaks who buy this.  It's not enough to
           change the channel?  You're paying for a channel that you then block?
           \_ "The point is not to block the channel or block free
              speech but to raise awareness," said Kimery...
              \_ No no no.  You misunderstand.  I'm not talking about the guy
                 selling the device.  I'm talking about the freaks buying it.
                 \_ Same deal.
                    \_ Whatever freakboy.  Enjoy your reality.
                    \_ I don't want my children exposed to that filth.
                       \_ I really doubt you have children.
                       \_ Why don't you just hide the channel and
                          passwd protect it? Most TVs already have
                          this feature built in w/o having to buy
                          something extra.
        \_ What the hell is this thing? Is it just a pass-through filter
           that blocks the frequency of Fox News Channel? If so, not all
           cable providers put Fox News on the same channel.
              \_ Maybe it just filters out fair and balanced reporting.

3/28    8.2 Earthquake in Indonesia:
        http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqinthenews/2005/usweax

3/28    Who was it that was looking for engineers for the Yahoo small
        buisiness group?  I have a resume to send you. --jwm
        \_ Try /csua/pub/jobs/yahoo-search
           \_ That's something different --jwm
        \_ god, just Kais Motd it.
        \_ See below:

3/28    Looks like George Felos hails from the same spiritual realm as John
        Edwards (the VP candidate).  He channels souls in the courtroom as
        well:
        http://www.sptimes.com/News/052501/Floridian/The_spirit_and_the_la.shtml

3/28    http://www.cosmeticgyn.net
        \_ Funny. I saw ads for this in the LA Weekly the last time I was down
           there. Up here, it's ads for electrolytic hair removal that amuse
           me. -- ulysses

3/28    I am a liberal, but I have sided with the parents in the
        Schiavo's case. From what I've gathered, I just don't trust
        the husband and what he's saying. My blessing goes to Terri
        and her parents for what they have to go through. May her rest
        in peace. I wish she had married someone better.
        \_ Yep.  It's not a political struggle, but the commentators have made
           it one.

3/28    So who's going to heaven first, Terri or the Pope?
        \_ Is this a trick question?  I always figured that Popes actually
           go to hell.
        \_ I think they are both stuck coming back here.

3/28    Anyone know of a linux program to view MS project files?

3/28    New Doctor Who episodes on you favorite file share
        server. Pretty cool and the companion is nice on the eyes.
           \_ http://www.piratebay.org of course.
            \_ winmx has it. Inerestingly enough; there is a writeup
        on the BBC web site both on the series and how fast copies of
        the first episode made it around the world via the internet.
        Having a cute blonde companion works wonders :-)
        \_ What's my favorite file share server?
           \_ http://www.piratebay.org of course.
            \_ winmx has it. Inerestingly enough; there is a writeup
        on the BBC web site both on the series and how fast copies of
        the first episode made it around the world via the internet.
        Having a cute blonde companion works wonders :-)

3/28    Are the Settlers nuts enough to really start a civil war?
        http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050328/1/3rhs6.html

3/28    tom, can you please tell me how to invest overseas?      -anon coward
        \_ Give all your money to John.  -tom
           \_ come on, I'm being serious.
              \_ So is Tom.  -John
        \_ Mutual funds/bond funds, of course.
           \_ Vanguard Pacific Stock Index Fund,
              Vanguard European Stock Index Fund,
              Vanguard Emerging Markets Stock Index Fund
              (Disclosure (Recommendation?):) I have holdings in all of the
              above funds.  I particularly like the Emerging Markets fund
              because it has been aggressively growing the percentage of the
              fund that is invested in China and Taiwan over the last few
              years. -dans
              \_ Thanks dans. I checked all 3 and they're available from ETrade.
                 Is that what you're using? Also, how come I can't see any
                 historical data? Also, what is the monthly fee I have to
                 pay (I plan to just buy and hold for a while), and what is
                 the tax implication on EFT? Thanks.-ok thx
                 \_ If you're planning to buy and hold (especially for
                    retirement), put the first $nk (I think n is currently 4
                    and will be 5 next year, but double check) in as your
                    yearly IRA contribution.  Unless you're planning to retire
                    in less than a decade, you should get a ROTH IRA (pay tax
                    now, don't pay taxes when you withdraw) as opposed to
                    Traditional IRA (pay no taxes now, pay taxes when you
                    withdraw).  If you're investing in anything you should get
                    a prospectus, this will include historical data.  You can
                    order a prospectus (free of charge) via Vanguard's
                    website, and I believe you can also download a prospectus
                    in PDF form.  I don't know all the tax implications since
                    all of the mutual funds I hold at present are retirement
                    savings in ROTH IRA's so the tax implications are nil in
                    my case.  Otherwise, I believe that it's your standard
                    investment taxation rules for capital gains.  My holdings
                    are directly with Vanguard.  Their fees are very low
                    compared to other long-term investment oriented firms
                    (Charles Schwab is comparable, many supposedly premier
                    fund firms, e.g. Oppenheimer are much higher). -dans
                    \_ The miniscule tax advantages of a Roth IRA are not
                       enough for me to keep numerous accounts like that.
                       So I just max out my 401k at work.
                       \_ So there's really not much effort involved with
                          keeping IRA's/ROTH IRA's.  From a tax standpoint,
                          the 401k and Traditional IRA are identical.  You pay
                          no taxes now, but you pay when you withdraw your
                          funds.  The nice thing about 401k vs. IRA is that
                          the yearly cap for 401k contributions (I think 25%
                          of gross income) is much higher than that for IRA
                          ($4-$5K).  That said, the tax advantages of a ROTH
                          IRA vs. Traditional IRA/401K are *huge* if you're
                          not going to be retiring for at least a decade.
                          ROTH IRA, you pay no taxes when you withdraw your
                          funds which has been compounding exponentially for
                          30+ years.  One useful trick is that after changing
                          employers, you can rollover your 401k to a
                          Traditional IRA, and then convert the Traditional
                          IRA to a ROTH IRA.  This allows you to have a ROTH
                          IRA where you contributed more than the yearly IRA
                          cap. -dans
                          \_ $3k/yr is not much money, even over 30 years.
                             Even if the tax difference was 25%, I don't
                             think I would find it worthwhile to deal with
                             the extra hassle. Unless tax rates go way up,
                             in which case I will wish I had done what you
                             are doing.
                             \_ Ahem interest compounding *exponentially*.
                                Run the numbers, what you have at the end is
                                not chump change.  And a 25% cut of $100K is
                                25K, which is not the kind of money I can
                                throw around with reckless abandon.  YMMV, I
                                guess. -dans

3/28    So I'm really confused about the DC to DC, car-to-laptop power adapter.
        How come most of them are "inverter" types, where you convert from
        DC to AC, and then AC to DC? Isn't that inefficient?
        \_ Using a resistor or transistor to do DC->DC also gives power loss.
           -not an EE.
        \_ It's easier to step up/down the voltage if the current is in the
           form of AC.
           \_ Really?  Is it "easier" than pulsed DC?
              \_ If nothing else, the parts are probably cheaper. -gm
        \_ How sure are you that's the case?

3/28    Is there any tool that can take a bunch of cpp and .h files and draw
        up an inheritance tree and a calling tree, like "a is called by b,
        b is called by c1 and c2, c1 is called by d, d and c2 are called by
        main"? and "new Foo() has as members the following classes, which each
        interit from ... and have as members these classes..."
        \_ Egypt (http://www.gson.org/egypt builds call graphs for C. I don't
           know if it works for C++; it'll probably output a call graph with
           mangled names or something. It doesn't do inheritance graphs. -gm

3/28    Worried about bike theft downtown? http://www.bikestation.org/berkeley

3/28    I think the woman who found the finger tip in the Wendy's bowl of
        chili purposely put it there so she can sue Wendy's.  Does anyone
        think it's possible that she did it?
        \_ According to reports it had been cooked, and appeared to have
           been ripped off by machinery, so it's not terribly likely.
        \_ I don't think so. There are better ways...
        \_ Dude, you want a toe?  I can get you a toe.
           \_ Phh, amateurs.  I can get you a whole body.
        \_ Wendy's donates $250,000 to the GOP. Thank god their business is down

3/28    Is it possible to nfs export the same filesystem twice under two names
        one read only one read-write.  Perhaps with a symlink?  Perhaps
        mounting a partion in two different places with two different names
        and exporting them seperately (one rw one ro)
        (or am I begging for trouble doing something like that).
        \- You can mount it in difference places, but you cant export
           two diff names.
        \_ You might be able to do this if you use something like vnconfig.
           1. Make a file of the size of the fs you want exported:
             # dd if=/dev/zero of=myfile bs=1024 count=X
           2. Configure the device:
             # vnconfig -c -v /dev/svnd0c myfile
           3. Make a fs on the file
             # newfs /dev/svnd0c
           4. Configure the second copy:
             # vnconfig -c -v /dev/svnd1c myfile
           5. Make two directories, one for ro, one for rw mount:
             # mkdir /mnt/ro /mnt/rw
           6. Mount the same file, once rw, once ro:
             # mount -o ro /dev/svnd0c /mnt/ro
             # mount -o rw /dev/svnd1c /mnt/rw
           7. NFS export the ro and rw fs's separately
           (Note I haven't tested the commands).
           \_ If you're going to go this route on FreeBSD, you can use null
              mounts. See man mount_nullfs. I suggest you make the null-mounted
              FS the read-only export; although the manpage warnings are a bit
              strong, nullfs used to have some consistency problems, so it's
              best to keep it simple. (Null mounts are also useful for
              populating jails.) -gm
           \_ linux has --bind mounts as well.  And solaris has loopback mounts\
              as well
           \_ linux has --bind mounts as well.  And solaris has loopback mounts
              as well
        \_ You can mount it in two different locations, one r/w and one r/o
           but I don't think you can export it twice.

3/28    Why do we say "five-digit ZIP code" and "ten-digit phone numbers", but
        we say "six-figure salary" not "six-digit salary"?
           \-because a salary is a number not a string of digits.
             phone number and zip codes dont have a "cadinality".
             Why are manhole covers round? Why do mirrors reverse
             left/right but not up/down? --psb
             \_ Manhole covers are round because round covers can't fall in.
                \- circle not only shape where that is true. also round =
                   easier to move/roll.
                   \_ yes, it's easier to roll, but what other shape would it
                      be true?
             \_ Or maybe it's just because salaries are old, but zip codes
                and phone numbers are new.  People say "three-digit IQ",
                even though IQ is a number with a magnitude.  --mconst
                     \- fair point. where do you figures outside of money?
                        i think it may have more to do with money than
                        old/new. --psb
                        \_ In the past, "figure" was certainly not restricted
                           to money; we still say things like "figure 8".
                           Nowadays, I can't think of anywhere I'd use it
                           except set phrases and some money-related stuff.
                           (Not even all money stuff; I'd say "12-digit GDP",
                           but that might just be me.  It's definitely "double-
                           digit GDP growth", although that's arguably not
                           referring directly to money.)  --mconst
                                     \- figure 8 is a differnt use it
                                        is referring to the shape of the
                                        digit/symbol. when speaking of
                                        precision/accuracy, i suppose
                                        people should use digits rather
                                        than significant figures.
                                        i suppose figures is also used
                                        fo non-money things like
                                        casualty figures. maybe it is more
                                        somthing open to "accounting"
                                        than narrowly money. check your facts
                                        and figures. --psb
                           \_ I always thought it was because salary is
                              something most poeple don't know the exact value
                              of.  You say double digit growth because
                              you could go get the numbers and they would
                              be exact values.  Salary is something you on
                              get in approximates because it isn't supposed
                              to be public knowledge is polite company.
                              So a 6 figure salary is a rough approximation,
                              not an standin for an exact value you can give
                              if pressed.
                              \_ Hmm.  Wouldn't the same thing apply to IQs,
                                 then?  When you say someone has a double-
                                 digit IQ, you're not claiming to know their
                                 IQ exactly.  --mconst
                \_ temperatures are old, but they can be triple-digit
                   \_ Good point.  The terms "double-digit" and "triple-digit"
                      seem to be used pretty widely in general; any idea how
                      old they are?  I can't find any citations in the OED
                      before 1959.  --mconst
                      \_ Check for 'treble-digit' as well.  Those wacky brits.
                         --scotsman
                         \_ For what it's worth, they actually list this as
                            originally U.S. usage.  --mconst
                            \_ Like "aluminum"?  :-)  -John
             \_ psb: how many figures of pi do you know?
                \- i figure pi figures bigger than e. when we think of
                   pi as a string, we use digits. when we think of it as
                   a number, it has a value. --psb
                \_ I know 17, which is four less than what's in
                   /usr/include/math.h.  --- !psb
                   \- looks like i know 18 ... in base 10. --psb
             \- This is a case where the different usage makes sense.
                In some cases I agree there are arbitrary or interchangeable
                uses eventhough in the dictionary, there may be some technical
                difference. On the flip side, there are work words seen as
                exact substitutesm possibly with one preferred and the other
                considered odd or archaic or verbose, but in some contexts
                the are not interchangable and the normally disfavoroed word
                should be prefered. e.g. use vs usage. You may be interested
                in http://home.lbl.gov:8080/~psb/BLOG/Intention-v-Motive.txt
        \_ Because "digits" apply no value to the item or the number involved
           while "figures" implies a relative, comparable standing. The phrase
           "six figure salary" can be given a comparative value (high, low,
           mid) and can be compared a salary involving a different number of
           figures. It also means all of the numbers should be taken as a
           whole. The phrase "five-digit ZIP Code" implies no particular
           value for a higher or lower number. Each digit gives no implicit
           meaning or value to the final number as a whole.
           \_ Addendum: Someone noted to me that "digits" is also exclusively
              used in cases where the positive integer is < 1000, no matter
              if the item in question is comparative. Interesting.

3/28    Do middle-class African americans spend a greater part of their
        incomes on cars then Cacasians and Asians?
        \_ shac, you want to answer this?
        \_ Before or After factoring in that they tend to get taken
           advantage of on car loans?
            \_ RACIST! There are plenty of wealthy African Americans. Your
               stereotype is sickening.
               \_ Statistically speaking, she is actually right. I
                  think I saw somewhere on edmunds or 60 Minutes that
                  car dealers will size up a customer based on their
                  ethnicity because they know roughly how much they
                  can milk you based on that.
        \_ ^Cacasians^Caucasians
           ^then^than
           Stupid troll.
           \_ I posted this because I saw an African American woman in her
              early 30s who works at my place in a shiney red Mercedes.  I
              have a pretty good idea what she makes and was surprised.
              She may have family money or have other sources of income but
              that is strage considering the job she has.  Will the new
              bankruptcy law be good or bad for African Amerricans?  I am
              not a troll!
              \_ ob I posted this because I saw a little Chinese
                 who works at my place in a shiney lowered white Acura, with
                 front/rear spoilers, huge muffler, and large ACURA stickers.
                 I am not a troll!
              \_ Maybe her husband/bf makes six figures and her low-paying job
                 is just for killing time.
                 \_ She has one of those jobs which are pretty low satisfaction
                    so I think it would be one of those "I need to work so I
                    work" cases.  But that is a guess.
        \_ I think in this case race doesn't matter much. How much someone
           spends on an automobile depends on how much he/she values an auto-
           mobile. There are ppl who spend the most they can afford on a nice
           ride and buy less furniture & clothes (example) and don't mind
           living in debt. Your African American colleague may have gotten the
           car with little to money down (it's very easy these days) and now
           living paycheck to paycheck or worse, borrowing from credit cards
           to make ends meet - but that's ok for her, since she has a nice
           car. OTOH, there are people who buy First Class plane tickets all
           the time but drive a shitty Yugo. It depends on where your priority
           is (although I do notice that most African Americans spend their
           cash on their auto).
           cash on their auto). -tom
           \_ I am aware different people chose to spend their money
              differently.  I also know you can easily borrow money.
              You last observation which I share is what movivated the
              posting.  I am not troll.

3/28    how do i become a product engineer/product manager?
        what classes?  what degree?  what should i be reading?
        \_ strive to become a solid programmer/engineer, while at the same
           time developing your interpersonal skills (something most engineers
           lack). if you really want, take a business course or two, but that's
           not necessary.
        \_ For the second, develop a high tolerance for meetings.
           \_ ooh boy, i second this.
           \_ Is that worse than "project managers"? They seem to do little
              other than sit in all status meetings and make reports to
              higher-up management (in other meetings).
              \_ Depending on the company, you may have "product managers",
                 "program managers", or "project managers". These all mean
                 different things to different people, but generally have
                 something to do with being a liason between engineering and
                 sales/marketing. The definitions of any of these titles
                 vary widely from organization to organization. -gm
                 \_ Seconded.  I should add that a good {product/project/
                    program} manager is worth his weight in gold (take heat
                    off developers, know how to BS management, keep all the
                    project status admin crap done, understand the paper
                    jungle, be a good politician) while a bad one can be the
                    worst obstruction EVAR!!!11 (micromanagement, impossible
                    deadlines, etc.)  Also, no, they are not the first to get
                    the boot if they're good at both their job and networking
                    (never ever ever underestimate that part.)  -John
                    \_ Hm. I was under the impression that "product" managers
                       actually have input into the specifications/design.
                       The project managers at my corp appear to have no input
                       although their role seems to pick up at the end of the
                       product cycle... getting the product to market. Lots of
                       work there sometimes. But as an engineering peon my only
                       interaction was to fill them in on status items. Seems
                       like a hellish job to me but maybe it's better at other
                       places.
                       \_ No, what you want is a product boss in Sun lingo.
                          Product bosses can kick ass and take names, and it's
                          a pretty damn cool job.  You also have to be a pretty
                          senior manager to become the product boss.
        \_ For the few jobs that I went through, the project/product/program
           managers are not engineers and don't know CS.  Yet they did fine.
        \_ Why in gods name would you want to become a product mgr?
           Those guys are the first one to get the boot when times
           get tough.  Much better to try and become an eng. mgr.
           An MBA helps for this (some schools have a eng mgmt
           program), but most of the mgrs I know are former eng.
           who just got tired of being a peon.
        \_ I have definitely had my share of worthless product managers, but
           the one good one I worked with made a world of difference. Actual
           knowledge of the engineering and business world is a huge plus.
           With my CS background, that's what I'm striving to become when I
           go to b-school this fall.