Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:March:11 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/3/11-5/9 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:36639 Activity:nil
3/11    Sendmail updated and support added for SMTP AUTH. Configuration
        continues, but you should be able to now authenticate over SSL
        and relay mail from your remote mail client. Consider it still
        in testing, however. Bugs to root.
2005/3/11 [Recreation/Media] UID:36640 Activity:nil 50%like:34490
3/10    Anyone know where to d/l Star Wars Ep3 ROTS trailer rather than pay
        lucas even more money for "Hyperspace" access?
           oh my bad that's the old one. new one can be googled for. see
           google news.
2005/3/11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:36641 Activity:insanely high
3/10    Polls for alumni: what big companies do you guys work at? No name
        start-ups need not respond:
        LLNL: .
        Ask Jeeves: .
        Pan American Airways:
        \_ Is this random or you want to know what it is like to work at
           each of these companies so you can compare offers?
        \_ What about no-name decade-old companies?
2005/3/11 [Uncategorized] UID:36642 Activity:nil 75%like:36600
3/11    Berkeley Critical Mass 12th Birthday is TODAY!
        \_ Someone should run those hippies over with their SUV.
2005/3/11 [Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:36643 Activity:moderate
3/11    Let me now sing praise to the woman on the BART wearing a denim
        bikini top on her way to work. Praise spring time! I'm headed to
        El Rio tonight to celebrate the weather. Who's with me? -- ulysses
        \_ Score!  We still have m4d snow, but I give it 2 months before the
           high-rise stringy thongs start showing up again!  -John
        \_ Those of us who don't live in California anymore are not as
           enthusiastic about this month's weather.  I'll get excited about
           spring in another month and a half when it comes.
        \_ Those of us who don't have 40" chest muscles are not as enthusiastic
           about this month's weather.  I'll get excited when it gets cold
           again and I can cover up my skinny body with designer jackets.
        \_ Those of us who don't have 42" chest and 20" bicepts are not
           as enthusiastic about this month's weather.  I'll get excited when
           it gets cold again and I can cover up my skinny body with designer
           jackets.  (It's not a joke.)
           \_ for every girl you can find who likes '42" chest muscles' I'll
              show you 10 who'd prefer a skinny guy
              \_ Has anybody here dated extremely thin women?  Like size 0
                 whose limbs you could encircle with your fingers?  Did you
                 ever worry you might "break" them in bed?
                 \_ Yes.  Yes.  No. -dans
              \_ That's very nice of you to say.  I hope it's true.
               \_ it is
               \_ It's true. My spouse would basically only date scrawny guys
                  up until a year before she met me and she's a total babe.
                  Her sister, on the other hand, prefers 'em bald and meaty. Go
                  \_ obviously written by a guy who has'n been married too long
                \_ is this backed up by a reputable scientific study, or
                   is it backed up by The Bible? I'll take either one.
        \- Do they have food at El Rio? Are you familar with El Stew?
           \_ Uh, no. What's that?
        \_ What's the significance of bikini in the Bay Area? -don't live there
           \_ BART is the subway train here in the Bay Aray.
           \_ The weather here has been really nice for that last week.
        \_ A 42" chest is not that big.  20" arms are probably one in a
           million.  -ax
2005/3/11-14 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:36644 Activity:nil
3/11    I'd like a way to have change the window's background
        color when I ssh to another machine-- really cool would be to have
        some sort of mapping of hostname to RGB value so that the window
        for machine1 looks different than machine2.  Is there a way to do
        this?  TIA.
        \_ If I wanted to do this for one machine only, I would replace ssh
           with a wrapper that outputs some ANSI sequences before calling
           the real ssh. (You might want to put in some logic to only do this
           for interactive sessions.) To set it up on a number of systems, I
           would put the ANSI sequences in my .profile. That way, if you ssh
           from A to B, then from B to C, your colors will match machine C
           instead of machine B. -gm
        \_ You might be able to do this w/ saved .term files. Just set
           the background to the color you want and then do File->Save
           and specify the cmd to execute as /usr/bin/ssh user@host.
           Then when you click on a particular term file, it will have
           the color set and will ssh into that host.
2005/3/11 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:36645 Activity:high
3/11    Drive a car, support Republicans:
        \_ Fox news is blue!
           I'm skeptical.
        \_ My SUV, my car. Keep your laws off my property.  P.S. I'm driving
           and you suckers can walk. Nyah nyah nyah            -conservative
           \_ I want to build a coal fired power plant in my backyard, right
              next door to you. Gotta problem with that?
              \_ Keep your laws of my property is not incompatible
                 w/ the belief that an individuals private property
                 use should not interefe your neighbor's use of his
                 private property. The expectation that one should
                 be free in his own land from interference by the
                 gov. and ones neighbors necessarily means that
                 one must refrain from activities that would
                 interfere w/ the ability of ones neighbors to
                 use their land similarly.
                 A coal fired power plant would be a private (if not
                 public nuisance) and pp would be entitled to an
                 \_ Your SUV is a public nuisance that operates on public
                    highways and uses my tax money to be a pain in the ass.
                    I have far more right to demand regulation of your
                    vehicle than you do to try and control what I do
                    in my own back yard. Hypocrite.
                    \_ The assertion that an SUV is a public nuisance
                       is debatable. A public nuisance is generally
                        \_ It's not, I can't see past them.  They endanger my
                           drive, in addition to making it less efficient and
                           costlier, by preventing me from planning for
                           traffic conditions ahead.  This also applies to
                           semis and vans and pickup trucks, which, like SUVs,
                           can be excused if their size is actually needed
                           (like by gardeners, handymen, etc.)  -John
                           \_ People NEED SUV to protect their frail egos.
                              It is a lot cheaper than seeing shrinks.
                       something fixed on a piece of property that
                       posses a threat to the health and safety of
                       the nearby community. A vehicle does not meet
                       this critera. Even if we assume that an SUV
                       meets the critera, it is debatable whether
                       an SUV posses any healty or safety risk. Many
                       would contend that SUVs are safer than regular
                       cars. In contrast your coal burning plant is
                       fixed next door to "mr conservative's" home
                       and will substantially affect him. Note that
                       if he were to put in such a structure, the
                       general principle provides you the same
                       BTW, I am not "mr conservative", I don't own an
                       SUV, and I have no plans to purchase/rent one
                       unless I find myself on safari in central
                       Africa w/o a nearby subaru dealer.
           \_ You will die in a car accident soon, fucker.
              \_ If he's in an SUV and you're on bike on in a little Honda
                 or Toyota, I think you'll be the one losing.
                 \_ Precisely the definition of a nuisance.
                 \_ No, He'll flip over the side of the mountain and die the
                    fucker that he is.
        \_ Now I'm happy, I have a Mazda that usually runs Chevon.
        \_ Yay. I have a honda and an infiniti.  Guess I need to start buying
           \_ Yah...I drive Toyota and pump Shell gas.
        \_ Why does a company contribute to both parties?
           \_ Hedging
2005/3/11 [Reference/Religion] UID:36646 Activity:high
3/11    Can a Christian enter a mosque or a temple?  Is it a breach of his/her
        \_ No!  Christians are only allowed to use colorsafe bleach on
           their faith!
           \_ Oops.  "breach".
        \-Uh no. In the case of Hindu temples, the depends on local rules.
          Some say "hindus only", some just want to you remove shoes/leather
          items before coming in. In some cases you cant bring in bags and
          cameras and such, but that is for security reasons [like at the
          important Kashi Viswanath Mandir], not relig. In a few very orthodox
          places in south india, men must wear a dhuti [and possibly tied in
          the south india as opposed to bengali fashion]. In the case of some
              \_ In Kerla, at least one temple is duthi only (no shirt).
                 \- i assume you can wear a shawl or "namaboli" type thing.
                    the rule is probably not "no shirt" but "nothing stitched"
                    [hence pant -> dhuti] and sari is ok. --psb
          "hindu only" temples, i suspect that it is not a strictly relig
          thing ... they just dont want clueless white people taking pictures
          and disrupting things and taking wearing shoes in the wrong places
          and all that. at a place like pashipatinath in kathmandu, i dont
          and all that. at a place like pashupatinath in kathmandu, i dont
          know what they will do if a white person says he is a hindu. you can
          probably BS or pay your way in. A non-muslim cant just hang along
          on the hajj ... but that is "their rule", not the Church's rule.
                    \_ When I was there we were not allowed to wear a
                       shawl, &c (different story for women). It was
                       pretty lame b/c this was for general attendence
                       not for a special enterance such as for Sri
                       Vaishnava's at Thirupathi.
                       \- did you pay $1million to go into the Thirupathi
                          temple? at the kolkata kalighat kali mandir, it is
                          more or less anything goes. in puri/bhubaneswar,
                          it was no leather/hindus only i think. --psb
          The main masjid in Kolkata allows non-hindu one day a year, but
          i dont know if you can make a special arrangement. As with churches
          where you are supposed to dip or fingers and cross yourself or
          whatever, some of these places have "rules" about what you are
          supposed to do when you come in ... you will probably screw that
          up and be obvious.
          \_ I think he's asking about whether or not it would compromise his
             own faith.  Most major religions will let you "visit", although
             I believe the Kabaa is off-limits to heathen.  -John
             \- although occasionally infiltrated, e.g. famously by
                richard burton who dressed up as an afgan to get in.
                [richard burton, the victorian, not the actor] --psb
          \_ What's the Hindu perspective on American Hari[sp?] Krishnas?
             \_ There is no such thing as a non-hindu. But those
                people are freaks.
                \- i think the view is something like the ramkrishna mission
                   is more respectable than ISKCON. --psb
        \_ I think the op was asking if it was a breach of the Christian
           faith to enter a place of worship of another religion, not
           if the place of worship would allow the Christian to enter. -!op
           \- yes i understand that. and i did address that. i thought the
              rest may be of interest to people with more "catholic"
              interests than you.
        \_ You immediately catch fire and die.
2005/3/11-12 [Recreation/Humor] UID:36647 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
3/11    Humor of the day:
2005/3/11-12 [Recreation/Food/Alcohol, Recreation/Food] UID:36648 Activity:low
3/11    What is the biggest, cleanest, nicest Korean market in the 415/510
        \_ The only good Korean Market that I know of near Berkeley is the
           Koreana Plaza on Telegraph in Oakland.  Just head south on
           telegraph to around 45th or something.  It's on the left.
           \_ Second that. There's a hole-in-the-wall in El Cerrito but
              Koreana (formerly Pusan) is pretty much it. They have all their
              banchan boxed up, now, too, if you're squeamish. --ulysses
              banchan boxed up, now, if you're squeamish. I have
              opinions on their bulgoki, too. --ulysses
              \_ The best thing of all, which I found out recently, is that
                 they're open 24 hours now.  There's a Korean market in
                 SF/Daly City area off of John Daly blvd that looks pretty
                 big, but I haven't been inside.
                 \_ I like how they have guys who flag the drivers around the
                    parking lot as if the shoppers were landing 747s.
2005/3/11-12 [Computer/SW/Graphics, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:36649 Activity:high
3/11    Heh. Is that lila in the SF Weekly's web personals window?
        \_ Go Lila go.  Nice pic.  -John
        \_ LILA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lila!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
           The hottest CSUA babe of the 90s
           \_ How sad, if that's the best we can do.  At least in the 80s we
              had Sioux Hannah.
              \_ Who? Pix?
              \_ someone mentioned previously that CSUA pres or vice-pres
                 is pretty presentable.
              \_ Sad?  How so. Lila is a wonderful.
              \_ And Kathy Li.
                 \_ Sioux was in a David Bowie video; Kathy was featured in
                    a comic book series.  Tough choice.  Sioux was hotter and
                    Kathy nerdier.
                    \_ Bowie? Nope. Paul McCartney video.
           \_ Eva Chan in the early 90s was hotter.
        \_ Are you guys serious? Is this the infamous lila I keep hearing
           about? -newbie
           \_ That's lila.  Why do you call her infamous?  She always seemed
              OK to me.
              \_ Yermom seemd OK, too. But then...
           \_ 1) This picture is recent. 2) You had to be there.
        \_ It's your big chance kchang!  Go, go!
           \_ I would but I'm not sure if she renewed her restraining orders
2005/3/11-14 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:36650 Activity:low
3/11    Why does trn keep crashing?  It seems if I leave trn idle for about
        5 minutes when I try to use it again I get an "unexpected socket
        close" error.  This started maybe 2 months ago.  What's up?
        It's making it difficult to multitask newsgroup reading. -jrleek
        \_ The message means that trn's network connection died.  You could
           try mailing news@agate asking them not to use such an aggressive
           idle timeout; failing that, I guess we could hack trn to send some
           sort of keepalive every few minutes.  --mconst
           \_ Done.  I have yet to recieve a reply, but the message was
              sent at about 4pm on Friday, so that's no surprise. -jrleek
        \_ I have the same problem. It's fairly new.
2005/3/11-14 [Computer/SW/P2P, Computer/SW/Security] UID:36651 Activity:high
3/11    What do I need to do to make sure I don't get sued when I use
        bittorrent? I am still a newbie. Thx.
        \_ Azureus bittorrent client w/ safepeer plug-in supposedly
           blacklists evil MPAA spy machines...
        \_ Don't download copyrighted materials, or run it on someone else's
           \_ How about a real answer? I don't care much for music/movie,
              only apps/games.
              \_ It is a real answer.  Bittorrent was not conceived to
                 provide any sort of anonymity; Bram Cohen states as much
                 somewhere on  The fact that you have a
                 tracker file hosted somewhere makes your IP show up.  -John
              \_ That's illegal and you can never fully "make sure" you don't
                 get sued.
                 \_ Under bittorrent, how would they trace me? Just give me
                    the technical info, if they were to do so? does the .torrent
                    file contains my info? ip?
                    \_ If you don't know enough to figure this out yourself,
                       you really shouldn't attempt it.
                       \_ In other words "I don't know".
                          \_ In other words, "You're a dumbass, and I'll laugh
                             my ass the fuck off if you get prosecuted"
                             \_ Sniff. Please sir, don't call me names.
                    \_ AFAIK, the underlying d/l stream in BT is not
                       encrypted. Someone w/ a pkt sniffer can tell
                       tell that you are using BT and what you are
                       d/l'ing. If they record the pkts, (which may
                       not be protected under 4 amd) the recorded
                       stream may be used as evid of your copyright
                       The best way to avoid this is to not become
                       an attractive target by d/l'ing high value
                       items frequently. The ONLY 100% safe way is
                       to not d/l copyrighted material.
                       \_ Isn't it easier than that to track someone?
                          I mean, if you're downloading Revenge of the Sith,
                          that means you're also serving it.
                          If I'm the Feds, and I turn on my bittorrent
                          client and start grabbing the movie, I should get
                          a list of IP addresses of everyone I'm getting
                          packets from.  I just tell the movie companies to
                          ask the ISPs to match IP addresses to people's
                          names for those people sending the most packets.
                          It doesn't matter if the data are encrypted, since
                          the IP addresses in the IP headers are in cleartext.
                          (although I feel stupid putting it this way)
                          \_ ISPs do not have to disclose the names of
                             people for a particular IP addr unless the
                             cops get a warrant by showing prob. cause.
                             To show prob. cause, the cops need to prove
                             that the IP addr actually served or d/l'ed
                             copyrighted content thus violating the
                             copyright. (simply having copyrighted
                             content on your computer that you own may
                             be covered under fair use and does not
                             show that you have likely violated the law).
                             If the content is encrypted, then the cops
                             can't really prove to the judge issuing
                             the warrant that you served or d/l'ed
                             copyrighted content and may not be able
                             to meet the prob cause requirement.
                             (Some judges might say that having the
                             files there was enough to est. prob
                             cause so you have to be careful)
                             If you use authentication, and the feds
                             lie to you to get a valid passwd, then
                             you may have all sorts of other legal
                             \_ Maybe that's why there are so few torrent
                                users being sued.  Anyways, since I don't
                                think the torrent data are encrypted anyway,
                                maybe it's not worth arguing about.
                                From a "I might get sued!" standpoint, I
                                personally would take the assumption that
                                encryption won't help for the Revenge of
                                the Sith example, but, YMMV.
              \_ Uhm, it is a real answer.  You want to use it for illegal
                 purposes, so you risk getting sued.
        \_ From what I've heard they've only sued 7 bittorrent users
           (non-ISPs).  It's not as bad as MP3 sharing ... yet.
           Basically, you are a target if you have fat upstream, you leave your
           computer on all the time so you have the double whammy of always
           serving files and your IP address never changing, and you serve a
           lot of new movies.
           You're probably not a juicy target, but for the average user, I
           would just avoid grabbing new mainstream movies, lots of recent
           movies, or serving lots of ISOs like WinXP or Office 2003.
           \_ Thanks! And to the guy above, f*** off!
              \_ Uhm, so you basically posted to get someone to pat you on the
                 back and say "Oh no, baby, it's okay.  No one's going to sue
                 you!"  That's pretty retarded.  I mean, honestly, if you're
                 going to trade in copyrighted materials, you become vulnerable
                 to a variety of legal actions.  Period.  If you can't accept
                 that, the just buy the fucking thing and quite wringing your
                 that, then just buy the fucking thing and quite wringing your
                 \_ Every piece of software on your computer is legally
                    \_ No clue...but I know the risks and am willing to
                       accept them.  *shrug*
                       \_ I see, so all that no stealing lecture does not
                          apply to yourself. I am speachless.
                          \_ You do realize that more than two people can post
                             right?  I haven't campaigned for or against the
                             morality of the issue, only the OP's retardation
                             about playing games with legality and essentially
                             entering a state of denial.  You're an idiot,
                             by the way, just in case that wasn't clear in your
                 \_ He didn't ask for a lecture, just how to avoid the law.
                    \_ So if op had asked you how to shoplift, you would
                       have told him w/o informing him that (1) it was
                       wrong to steal and (2) he may be subject to criminal
                       What I find more disturbing is the fact that op
                       feels entitled to download games (and whatever
                       else he wants) w/o paying for it.  Regardless of
                       the civil/criminal liability associated w/ this
                       sort of activity, op OUGHT to realize that actual
                       people worked on the games that he is stealing
                       and if everyone acted like him and stole these
                       games there would be no incentive for people to
                       work on future games. If the hard work of others
                       brings you benefit, PAY FOR IT or we all lose in
                       the long run.
                       \_ I'm not going to disagree with you about games, but
                          I don't agree that stealing software always costs
                          companies money in lost business.  I've used stolen
                          copies of very expensive software to get the feel
                          for them and figure out how to use them and then
                          spent huge amounts of Other People's Money to buy
                          the real thing based on having tried it for free.
                          In some cases I would probably not have made that
                          purchasing decision had I not been able to try it out.
                          So in the end, the company made *more* money than
                          they would had I not stolen a copy while I was a poor
                          student who couldn't afford it anyway.
                          \_ I can see your rationale. If you end up
                             buying a copy of the software or deleting
                             it b/c you don't want to buy it, there is
                             no violation of the principle that one ought
                             pay for things from one which one derives a
                             benfit. Unfortunately the law does not (and
                             probably cannot ever) allow for this.
                             The general principle could be applied to
                             games/music/books/movies/&c. if there were
                             no public library or private rental systems,
                             however, it is so easy and affordable to
                             rent things it doesn't really make sense to
                             \_  Well, the way for this to be legal is for the
                                 company to have the foresight to give away
                                 a version that's good enough to learn the
                                 commands and get a feel for it so poeple like
                                 me don't *have* to break the law to try their
                                 damn product.  Wasn't there a free version of
                                 Doom in the begining to get people hooked?
                                 After that, I was more than happy to shell
                                 out the money for the real thing which I
                                 probably wouldn't have done otherwise.
                                 \_ right...I'm sure companies which provide
                                    demo versions never get their software
                                    stolen.  -tom
        \_ Join a private forum.  No, really.
        \_ Would decentralization, using SSL encryption, and only using
           centralized servers to randomly connect people, and always
           use another node as a middle-man when xferring data make it
           really hard to track? Sort of a cross between filetopia and
           \_ onion routing, so nobody's sure what data is going through them,
              taht would be more like it.  See 'freenet'
2005/3/11-12 [Recreation/Food] UID:36652 Activity:high
3/11    Anyone here thinks MSG is bad for you?
        bad     : ..
        not bad : ..
        \_ If you think MSG is bad for you, I hope you avoid ripe tomatoes,
           seaweed, and aged cheeses.
           \_ The amount of MSG in tomatos is insignificant compare to
              the MSG you buy in supermarkets. I haven't heard of anyone
              allegic to tomatos, but quite a number of people are allergic
              to MSG in restaurants.
              \_ I've heard that most bad reactions are due to impurities
                 in the MSG they buy & use.  If you get high quality,
                 well-refined stuff, supposedly it's much better.
           \_ I don't think that's really MSG, I think it's just glutamate.
              I assume that sodium in monosodium glutamate makes some
              kind of difference.  Probably makes it last longer.
        \_ MSG is an excitotoxin. It excites your neurons (like in you taste
           buds) but it is bad for your central nervous system. MSG is
           really bad stuff and shouldn't be put in food.
           \_ See, I really don't get this.  I looked into what MSG is.  It
              turns out MSG is just glutamate, (as said above) with a sodium
              instead of a hydrogen, converting it from an acid to a salt.
              However, I looked up the equilibrium constant for MSG.  It turns
              out that both glutamic acid and MSG dissociate in water to
              a positive Na+ or H+ ion and -glutamate, to within a few PPM.
              So, like .0001% of MSG is actually MSG once it hits your mouth.
              Now, glutamate is about 34% of all proteins.  So when you eat
              protein, and you eat it with salt (NaCl), you've got all the
              ingredients for MSG in your stomach--the protein gets chopped up
              into glutamic acid by your digestive processes.  And by the
              equilibrium constants and the presense of Na+ from NaCl, some
              MSG is going to be made spontaneously.  So, as I understand it,
              eating salted chicken is equivalent to eating MSG.  But no one
              decries eating salted chicken.  Given my researches, I just don't
              understand how MSG can be harmful.  It seems that the theory
              that it's MSG contaminants that cause the problem, is more plausible.
              Is the source for your claim mainstream?  Or is it just that
              "MSG" sounds scary so people scapegoat it?  --PeterM
              \_ Whenever I eat food with high MSG level, I don't get
                 a good night of sleep. My brain just doesn't drift
                 into a sleep mode and I am sort of half awake for a
                 long time. When I don't eat MSG food I can sleep
                 fine. I am a light sleeper so YMMV, but it does seem
                 to have a caffeine effect on me and make me agitated
                 when I am trying to sleep. This sort of makes sense
                 after I read about how it excites your neurons. I
                 can't say I am allergic to MSG, but when I eat at
                 crappy Chinese restaurants that puts in a lot of MSG,
                 my mouth gets very dry afterwards and I need to drink
                 a lot of water or fruits to 'counter' the effect. I
                 think the key here is the level, it is significantly
                 higher than what's present in natural food. I'd
                 rather be safe than sorry and avoid it when I can.
2005/3/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:36653 Activity:moderate
3/11    I am curious, what would the death penalty opponents say about
        people like Brian Nichols? Or those who committed 911? Where
        do you draw the line?
        \_ You draw the line at "state-enforced execution."  -tom
           \_ So you suggest we let people like Brian Nichols happily
              live in prison, watching TV, and pumping iron?
              \_ Yeah, I'm sure prison is just like a country club.  -tom
                 \_ Of course not.  In a country club, you have to pay for the
                    food and the gym, and there's no free medical.
           \_ What about state-enforced prison? Are you against
              anything state-enforced?
              \_ No.  Don't be a moron.  -tom
                 \_ He probably can't help it.
        \_ I'm not necessarily against the death penalty, but I believe the
           system can be improved.  My opinion is that, while in the U.S. you
           can convict someone with "beyond reasonable doubt", you should only
           be able to put someone to death using "beyond any doubt" that the
           defendent actually committed the crime.
           E.g., the jury convicted Scott Peterson using "beyond reasonable
           doubt", but I don't believe a jury could say it was "beyond any
           doubt" he did it or had someone do it, and so therefore couldn't
           sentence him to death.
           Naturally things like state-of-mind (premeditation / heat of the
           moment, clinical insanity, etc.) may be hard to include in this
           equation -- unless for example you have someone telling several
           people that they have nothing against Grandpa, but they really want
           that inheritance and he's old anyway -- but that's the main tricky
           part of the implementation.
           Ideally, there shouldn't be a death penalty, but some system where
           those who would normally be put to death would be punished with hard
           labor and minimal comforts for the rest of their lives.  But this
           ideal may be hard in coming and in regulating abuse, so I'm not
           going to preach on that, but push a "beyond any doubt" restriction
           on capital punishment instead.
           \_ So let's say they can't prove for _sure_ someone did XYZ.  It's
              OK to take away their life with a fate many would consider worse
              than death: life in prison, but not OK to kill them, usually on
              \_ What I don't understand are the arguments that support the
                 death penalty for reasons beyond what it is: (a) to punish,
                 (b) to set an example, (c) to remove a danger from society.
                 It is not a mercy killing, nor can you apply economic
                 arguments.  I personally oppose it, although asking me a
                 "what if" question like this is basically the same as the
                 torture dilemna--in short, I don't know.  I just wish people
                 arguing pro/contra the death penalty would be intellectually
                 honest and not use nonsense reasoning.  -John
              the argument that it's irrevocable.  I would argue that life (or
              even a long period) in prison is just as irrevocable.
              \_ Let's take Scott Peterson.  We can't prove for _sure_ he did
                 it or had someone do it.  The jury puts him in jail for life.
                 20 years later, someone else says he did it -- Scott is an
                 adulterer, an asshole, a liar, and a poor excuse for a human
                 being -- but to a judge, he didn't kill Laci.
                 You release Scott Peterson.  The government must pay
                 restitution and clear his legal record.  The payments don't
                 make up for the time lost.  For some people, this would be
                 fair.  So, let's say we had someone truly innocent convicted,
                 like Dr. whatshisface from The Fujitive.  The government would
                 pay restitution, but it wouldn't make up for lost time.  But
                 that's life.  That's not "OK", but it's the best we can do
                 with the system.
                 On the other hand, if you kill Scott Peterson and Dr.
                 Fujitive guy on "beyond reasonable doubt" and they both
                 turn out to be innocent, that's not "OK", and we can actually
                 do better with a "beyond any doubt" restriction on capital
                 \_ That's just a more roundabout and less intellectually
                    honest way of saying that you're an opponent of capital
2005/3/11 [Finance/Investment] UID:36654 Activity:high
3/11    Housing Bubble About To Pop:
        \_ My favorite troll!  You just made my day.
        \_ Housing prices will increase until population growth stops.
        \_ Hey, how long ago did you first posit that the housing bubble
           was about to pop?  -tom
           \_ About a year ago. I also told everyone that tech stocks were
              overvalued in 1998. Turns out I was right about that one, too.
              \_ Good job, Karnak.  No one could have forseen the business-
                 plan-less tech bubble bursting.
                 \_ The funny thing about financial markets is that they
                    naturally tend to ebb and flow; sometimes quite radically.
                    A funny think about know-it-all engineers is that in their
                    desire to prove their worth and be right, they ignore the
                    fact that if you say the say thing consistently for a long
                    enough span of time, you'll eventually be right.
              \_ Gee, you're brilliant; so you told people they should have
                 sold a year before their houses went up 20% in value, and
                 they should have gotten out of NASDAQ before their
                 investments more than doubled in value in just 2 years.
                 Maybe you should run a mutual fund.  -tom
                 \_ If you got out in 1998 and put your money in savings,
                    you would be better off than if you held on to today.
                    Sure, I missed the bubble, but I missed the crash, too.
                    \_ wrong; the money I had in the market in 1998 earned
                       a lot more than a savings account would have.  (And
                       it paid for my house in 1999, which has since also
                       doubled in value).  I'm sure you're doing just great
                       with your 2.5% annual return.  Have fun.  -tom
                       \_ Nasdaq in 1998 = 2000. Nasdaq today = 2000.
                          I got a nice CD in 1999 that paid me 6% for
                          five years. I will probably put that money back
                          in the market now.
                          \_ You are not only a moron, you are completely
                             full of shit.  The average price of the Nasdaq
                             in 1998 was less than 1800, and its low was
                             below 1600.  If you bought indexes at 1600 and
                             sold at 2000, that's a 25% increase; even if
                             you were completely asleep for the past 7 years
                             and didn't take any of your profit when you were
                             up over 100%.
                             And CDs were not paying 6% then or now.
                             Here's a real-world scenario; put $20K into
                             Qwest at 34, sell at 91 in less than 2 months,
                             use that money as down payment on a house, and
                             see that leveraged investment rise to a value
                             over 10 times the initial outlay.
                             How's that fictional 6% CD looking now?
                             Incidentally, even if you don't include this
                             transaction, my portfolio is worth more now
                             than it was at the market peak in 2000, and at
                             least 3 times what it was worth in 1998.  -tom
                                I got 5 yr 6% CD from my credit union in 1998.
                                Too bad you can't accept that fact. I am glad
                                you got lucky speculating in the bubble market,
                                but most people got burned. If you took $20k
                                to Vegas and bet it all on black and won,
                                that would be about the same thing. If you
                                \_ Uhm, no -- only if you have the financial
                                   savvy of a kumquat.  The primary category
                                   of people that got burned were
                                   non-financially savvy engineers with stars
                                   in their eyes.  Your comparison highlights
                                   your wishful thinking wrt your own choices.
                                   Get over it, son.
                                have really tripled your investment in 7 years
                                without adding any new money, it is you who
                                should be opening a mutual fund.
                                Nasdaq on 12/31/1998 - 2100+
                                \_ How are those grapes?  Probably a little
                                   sour, right?  -tom
                                   \_ No, I actually feel very lucky to have
                                      escape the crash that devastated the
                                      finances of so many around me.
                                      \_ hey cmlee, if that's you could you
                                         sign your name, so we know we're
                                         dealing with the true anti-analyst?
                                         \_ Q trades at $3 today, much much
                                            less than what you bought it at,
                                            by the way. Was it overvalued in
                                            1998 or undervalued today?
                                            \_ I think it was a reasonable
                                               purchase at $34.  Not all
                                               reasonable purchases work out.
              \_ I think housing is way overvalued but it's because people
                 with money have dumped it into real estate and it's feeding
                 on itself. How would it pop though? Are there large numbers
                 owners waiting to flip their property for cash? They keep
                 dumping it back into the market. Maybe if we get some
                 major economic Thing happen. Inflation? Don't homeowners
                 do well in inflation?
                 \_ inflation -> interest rates rise -> recession -> pop!
                    \_ I agree that prices will come off the peaks, but
                       the question is how much. If my house loses 50%
                       of its current value I am still even or perhaps
                       even better if one considers the deductions I've
2005/3/11 [Recreation/House] UID:36655 Activity:high
3/11    Sheetrock/drywall question again please. How much CAN I hang from
        my ceiling, if I don't screw the screws into a stud, but I do use
        one of those little contraptions that I fold up, push into the
        hole in the ceiling, and once inserted it expands, and then I
        connect the ceiling hook to that. (I bought it from Home Depot
        in a section that sells devices to hang plants from ceilings).
        \_ You can hang a lot when it's dry. When it's dry, it will fall
        \_ You can hang a lot when it's dry. When it's wet, it will fall
           apart. So if you do it, pray that your roof doesn't leak.
        \_ Not a lot. Drywall is not very strong at all. You can find
           inexpensive stud finders everywhere. You don't want things
           hanging on the ceiling to fall down. I suspect after a while
           you may even see the ceiling curve due to teh weight.
        \_ Those drywall anchors are designed for WALLS not ceilings.
           Don't hang anything from the  drywall on the ceiling.
                \_ I just weighed the light fixture I want to install
                   and it's 5 pounds. Do you still think that's too
                   heavy? I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm just
                   trying to find a way to hang it from the hooks
                   I've bought. thanks. -op
                   \_ screw it into a stud, you dipshit
                        \_ the reason I don't want to bother finding a
                           a stud is because I need the light in a very
                           specific place. if there's a stud there, great,
                           but if not, then the light is going there
                           \_ then you have to install framing above your
                              ceiling for it.  -tom
                           \_ Can you use an LED (I think that's what they
                              are) or one of those little halogen lights
                              mounted in the ceiling?  They don't weigh a lot
                              and give a lot of light...  -John
                           \_ There are electrical boxes made to hang in
                              the space between the studs. You either need
                              to use a stud, frame between studs, or buy
                              one of these devices. Hire an electrician
                              and he can do all of this for 1 hour's
                              wages ($50-80) and you can be sure it will
                              be secure.
2005/3/11 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:36656 Activity:nil
3/11    Kerry Loves the Mainstream Media......And has contempt for
        the American people.
2019/01/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:March:11 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>