Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:March:04 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2005/3/4-5 [Reference/Military] UID:36519 Activity:kinda low
3/3     Proof that ilyas has a sense of humor (or humour as he put it):
        http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~ilyas/humour/swift_sword_of_death
        \_ The sword cost is inaccurate. There is also the wage to the
           sword wielder to consider. And I doubt one swordsman would
           be adequate.
           \_ not to mention the mess cleanup afterward.
              \_ Just get a bunch of sausage makers and sell the removal and
                 cleanup right to the highest bidder.  The money from the
                 sausage makers should cover whatever cost you might incur.
        \_ I prefer the Springer show thing he's got there, though it's a
           bit dated. The Dworkin stuff is so very 1993. My spouse is just
           about the only self-proclaimed feminist who hasn't moved on yet.
        \_ The entry about dictators is also incorrect; Repubs enjoy moving
           their former allies just as much as Dems do.
           \_ replies above prove that pps take everything too
              seriously and have no sense of humour. Jesus Christ lighten up!
              \_ Dude, we're cs geeks; we'll argue semantics and degrees of
                 precision all damn night without any real purpose or goal.
                 It's got very little to do with taking things seriously.
                 So, seriously, lighten up!
               \_ how dare you instruct our benevolent martyr to lighten up!
                  he died on the cross at the hands of man for YOUR SINS!
2005/3/4-6 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:36520 Activity:high
3/4     Rave: Chapter Two of Damian Conway's Object Oriented Perl is hands
        down the clearest exposition I've ever read of perl modules,
        namespaces, references, as well as local vs. my.  I wish I'd read it
        sooner.  Well worth the just over $20 to get it as a PDF, and I will
        probably drop the $40 or $50 needed for the dead trees edition.
        Two pages later, it also features the clearest exposition of closures
        I've ever read, and I'd highly recommend it to anyone taking 61A in
        order to help get your head wrapped around the magic that is lambda.
        -dans
        \_ sometimes you can find editions cheap on amazon used books.
        \_ Can I give you $10 and you mail me a copy of the pdf? -poor student
           \_ 26$ for a "like new" used hardcopy from amazon.
           \_ You can easily get a copy off of emule for free.
           \_ Are you really so poor that you can afford $10 but not $20?
              That's two, maybe three trips to La Burrita.  Also, seeing as I
              like Conway's work, I'd like to see him get paid and perhaps
              write more at a later date.  Why don't I arrange to donate a
              copy to the CSUA library? -dans
              \_ What I find depressing is how many people seriously don't
                 see a problem with paying money for IP they like, and stealing
                 IP they don't like.  As if their subjectivity is any yardstick
                 to measure people's rights by.  Or, if you like, as if stupid
                 people didn't have the same rights as everyone else. -- ilyas
                 \_ Fair enough. Do you pay for your copy of Windows and
                    every single warez you've had in your life?
                    \_ Yes, my copy of windows is paid for.  I do not 'own'
                       any warez, and never have.  Why must you assume everyone
                       is as much of a scumbag as you? -- ilyas
                    \_ I don't know aobut ilyas, but the one copy of Windows
                       I've ever used was legit (paid for by my company). I
                       also paid for all the software I currently use on my
                       Macs. Most of my other systems run either Linux or BSD,
                       and I don't have any commercial software on those systems.
                       At one point in my life (10+ yrs ago) I did have some
                       commercial software (mostly games, though I don't
                       think I ever had a license of MacDraw) on my MacSE,
                       think I ever had a license for MacDraw) on my MacSE,
                       but back then when you bought a computer you just
                       assumed that the stuff on the old hd was yours.
           \_ Not only would this be illegal, it is also just plain wrong.
              As a published author, nothing bugs me more than people who
              feel that they somehow have a right to STEAL your work w/o
              compensating you for it.
              If everyone was like you and refused to pay for books, the
              incentive to write (what little there already is - a tech
              author may get ~ $2 per copy sold) will completely disappear.
              Who wants to waste their nights and weekends (most of us
              need real jobs b/c writing tech books doesn't come close to
              paying the bils) if there would be no benefit beyond some
              minor recognition on one's resume?
              If the book helps you out, PAY FOR IT. </rant>
              \_ I buy most of my technical books used.  This is legal, however
                 the author still doesn't get any money.  What do you think of
                 that?  If authors asked used buyers to send them a couple
                 bucks, I'd do it, but I've never heard of such a system.
              \_ I buy most of my technical books used.  This is legal,
                 however the author still doesn't get any money.  What do
                 you think of that?  If authors asked used buyers to send
                 them a couple bucks, I'd do it, but I've never heard of
                 such a system.
                 \_ I have no problem w/ used books. The original purchaser
                    has already compensated the author. Once they bought
                    the physical book (or electronic copy), they can sell
                    it or give it away to someone else assuming that they
                    do not retain a copy for their own use.
                    \_ Just for shits and grins, why don't you try putting a
                       message in the next edition of your book that says
                       "If you really love this book and find it useful send
                       me a dollar" and see what happens.
2005/3/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Korea] UID:36521 Activity:moderate
3/4     North Korean diplomat talks about what NK things of the US.  There
        are some great quotes here.  BTW everything is Bush's fault.
        http://csua.org/u/b9d
         \_ Listen. Bush is a great president because he stands by his
            belief. Bush ousted Saddam who was personally financing
            Palestinian suicide bombers and was making ties to Al Qaeda.
            I don't care much about world and overal liberal perception of
            the US. The right thing to do is sometimes unpopular. Now go
            ahead and mock me with immature liberal insults.
            \_ This has got to be a liberal trolling, but on the off
               chance that it isn't: the "BTW everything is Bush's fault,"
               is a joke on the contents of the article.  Read it and come
               back.  Sheesh. -op
               \_ Sorry. I didn't read it at first because I thought it was
                  another liberal drivel. Thanks for sharing the article.
                  \_ First rule of motd: Do not respond to link
                     descriptions with out reading the link.
        \_ Story quotes:
           He believes that Americans have the wrongheaded notion that North
           Koreas are unhappy with the system of government under Kim Jong Il.
           "We Asians are traditional people," he said. "We prefer to have a
           benevolent father leader." ...
           The North Korean criticized some Japanese politicians' efforts to
           link the nuclear talks to the question of Japanese citizens
           kidnapped by North Korea in the 1970s and 1980s.
           "This was something done by a few overly enthusiastic people long
           ago," he said. "We tried to make amends.
           [Okay, between his being an idiot, or trying to sell us, I'm going
           to say the latter.]
           \_ Is it that hard to just let the kidnapped go home if they are
              really trying to make amends?
              \_ The big deal was that N. Korea sent over a body, said it was
                 so-and-so who was kidnapped and their papers.  Then testing
                 of the body showed it was someone else, and review of
                 documentation showed it was forged.  Japanese officials said
                 "What the fuck?!?"  And N. Koreans said, "Did you say
                 something?" and has been pretending not to hear.
                 This is why most of Japan is currently super-pissed.
                 \_ Lying commies.
        \_ I like this one:
           The declaration [of nuclear weapons possesion], which jarred
           U.S. officials, was not intended as a threat, he said, but
           merely a way to advance negotiations..."We were hoping for
           change from the U.S. administration. We expected some clear-cut
           positive change."
           Riiiighhht.
        \_ Highlights:
           "There is a question of what is a political prisoner. Maybe these
            people are not political prisoners but social agitators."
           "We should have food, shelter, security rather than chaos and
            vandalism."
           Yeah, food would be nice. When were they planning to provide that?
           Typical schizophrenic North Korean-speak.
           \_ I'm still trying to figure out the difference between a
              political crime and social agitation.
2005/3/4-5 [Recreation/Shopping] UID:36522 Activity:moderate
3/4     Where is a good place to get an all-purpose shoe?  When I
        say all purpose, I mean something perfectly comfortable to walk 5
        miles in and perfectly presentable to go to a club in, something
        that looks good with shorts, jeans, or khakis.
        \_ You can get this at any non-sport shoe store (outlets are fine).
           I got mine at the cheap shoe store on Shattuck by BART.
        \_ a shoe store.
           \_ OK, but some shoe stores are better than others, or have
              difference specialties.
        \_ Payless. Get $20 shoes, buy another pair in 4-6 months.
        \_ Macy's.
2005/3/4-5 [Uncategorized] UID:36523 Activity:nil
3/4     What kind of devices (cheap?) can I use to measure the radiation
        level from stone things like granite counter tops, etc?
        \_ Geiger Counter
2005/3/4-5 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:36524 Activity:high
3/4     FYI for any other PEs here, as of July 1st, should the Gubernator get
        his way, the Professional Board is being folded into a single "Dept
        of Commercial Licensing". The implication is that, after 7/1, any
        complaints against your license will be processed by the same people
        who process complaints against hairdressers rather than a council of
        engineers. Google California AB 1024. -- ulysses
        \_ As much as I dislike Ah-nold, I'm inclined to agree with him on
           the consolidation of the state governing boards.  A lot of these
           board positions are just sinecures for retired politicians.
           \_ The BPELS has 13 seats and one Executive Officer. 6 of those
              seats and the executive officer are PEs with the remaining 7 being
              "public". You decide.
              "public". You decide. For comparison the CA Bar Ass'n Board is
              6 "public" out of a 23 member board. Hey, you don't care about
              who licenses the person who designed your roads, bridges,
              waterways, BART tracks, etc etc vs who licensed you real estate
              agent or your stylist, well, that's the will of the public at
              work, I guess.
              \_ Indeed.  Crap like this is EXACTLY why bureaucracies end up
                 sucking.  "Ooh, we can save money!" while the world falls
                 apart around you.
              \_ What's a PA seat vs a public seat?
                 \_ PE = Professional Engineer.
        \_ I know a woman who put herself through Berkeley EECS as a
           hairdresser who may very well be reading this.  Why don't you
           belittle someone else?
           \_ As someone who frequents the more expensive stylists and bemoans
              the lack of decent cuts this side of the Bay Bridge, I probably
              have more respect for stylists than you do (probably). Still, my
              guy Christopher out in South Beach is not likely to create
              something within his profession that could destroy property or
              lives...or to get into a more real scenario in my case, make
              toilets run backwards
                -- ulysses
2005/3/4-5 [Health/Disease/General, Health/Women] UID:36525 Activity:moderate
3/4     Ok you people who actually see doctors: what is the normal course of
        action if you had stomach/abdominal pain all night? Emergency room,
        or try to make some kind of appointment? --ouch
        \_ How bad and where? Look down at your abdomen. If it hurts in the
           lower right like you're being stabbed, go to the Emergency Room.
                                                                    ASAP _/
           \_ especially if you press your finger there, and when you remove
              your finger it hurts - that's your appendix rupturing
              the other side is your stomach, no big whoop
           \_ I guess it's not like that. it just aches and hurts if I push
              below my navel. i also feel a little feverish. well I'll try
              calling them.
              \_ That just sounds like pre-diarrhea to me.
              \_ abdominal cramps!
              \_ Go to critical care clinic, i fyou have one available.
              \_ Go to critical care clinic, if you have one available.
                 Otherwise call your doctor and make an appointment.
                 Do not go to the ER if you can avoid it. With your
                 relatively minor complaint, you will sit there all day.
                 If you are running a serious fever (over 102) then go
                 If you are running a serious fever (over 101) then go
                 to the ER. They will see you immediately.
              \_ I hope to God you're not still sitting around reading this.
                 If you're feverish and have ab pain, go to the Emergency
                 Room. If you're lucky, it's just food poisoning; if you're
                 somewhat lucky, it's an infection that can be treated. If
                 you're out of luck, goodbye appendix.
                 \_ Don't overreact. Here is the diagnosis tree for
                    abdominal pain:
                    http://familydoctor.org/x2593.xml
                 \_ nah I did end up calling my clinic and ended up spending
                    all day in there. they couldn't rule out appendicitis.
                    but now I'm home and it only hurts a little so it's
                    probably not.
        \_ The hospital usually has a number for questions, something like
           the duty nurse. You can talk to this person and they can usually
           give you good advice on whether to go to the emergency room, or
           visit your doctor. Plus, they would know if there is a doctor
           available at their clinic that has open appointments.
        \_ If you dont' think your life is in danger I would probably go to
           an urgent care center.
        \_ M-x Doctor
2005/3/4 [Uncategorized] UID:36526 Activity:nil 60%like:36495
3/3     [anonymous comment to anonymous person deleted] -emarkp
2005/3/4-5 [Health] UID:36527 Activity:kinda low
3/4     Can we institute a new general rule:  If you have to ask motd whether
        you should talk to a doctor, talk to a damn doctor.
        \_ M-x doctor
        \_ No, I'd rather rely on our motd's diverse resources, I like the
           common sense approach here, motd posters are very knowledgable.
           \_ Smoking is good for you! Rat poison == health food!
2005/3/4-5 [Health/Eyes] UID:36528 Activity:high
3/4     Is Visine Red Out a bad thing? My optometrist said I shouldn't use it
        because bloody vessels supply oxygen to my eyes and that if I use it
        too much my eyes will "suffocate", whatever that means. Is it really
        true that it's bad for your eyes, and if so, isn't Visine a dangerous
        product to sell?
        \_ If it gets the red out, then it must cause the blood vessels
           to contract, even the normal ones, restricting blood supply.
           Moderate use is probably fine, but like most medicines, overuse
           is dangerous.  Listen to your optometrist, he's making sense.
        \_ what a brilliant idea, take the MOTD's advice on eye health over
           that of your optometrist.  Also, you should go back to him and
           ask him how to configure iptables.  -tom
           \_ Too bad all the people that know how to run the country are
              busy being sysadmins for ucb, eh tom? -- ilyas
              \_ I'm not a sysadmin.  And last I checked, Dubya wasn't asking
                 me how to run the country.  -tom
                 \_ That's true.  In fact, nobody is asking you.  This doesn't
                    seem to stop your proclamations however. -- ilyas
                    \_ Do you have a point?  I think it would also be stupid
                       for Dubya to ask the MOTD how to run the country.
                       (Though perhaps it would work out better than the
                       people he's currently asking).  -tom
                       \_ Let's take a little vote, shall we?  Suppose you
                          HAD to vote for Tom, Ilyas, or Bush, and had no
                          other alternative, who would you vote for?
                          Bush: ..
                          Tom: ..
                          \_ FUCK YOU TOM, FUCK YOURSELF AND FUCK YOUR MAMA
                             and BTW you can't vote for yourself DUMB FUCK
                          Ilyas: .
                          \_ which one gets the Red out? Pro-Visine?
                 \_ Try reading "The Wisdom of Crowds." Oh hell, it's Tom,
                    don't even bother...
             \_ WAIT A MINUTE is this thread about Visine or is it really about
                tom and ilyas?
        \_ WARNINGS:
           As the possibility of adverse effects on the corneal permeability and
           the danger of disruption of the corneal epithelium with prolonged or
           repeated usage of benzalkonium chloride preserved ophthalmological
           preparation cannot be excluded, regular ophthalmological examination
           is required. Caution should be exercised in the use of benzalkonium
           chloride preserved topical medication over an extended period in
           patients with extensive ocular surface disease.
        \_ Why not ask an opthamologist instead of an optometrist?
2005/3/4 [Uncategorized] UID:36529 Activity:nil
3/4     I thought soda was going down soon?
        \_ Just like yermom.
2005/3/4-5 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:36530 Activity:kinda low
3/4     http://csua.org/u/b9i
        "Well," the insurgence says to the hostages, "Are you really sure you
        want us to release you?"
        \_ That's Ironic.  I bet there was poor communication between the
           convoy and the US troops.  So some soldier sees a car rolling
           up fast with a bunch of guys with guns in it and...
           \_ Yes, because people in cars with guns in Iraq is such a odd
              sight.
              \_ Oh, tell us of all your adventures in Iraq!
                 \_ US Soldier: It's coming right for us!
2005/3/4-5 [Transportation/Airplane] UID:36531 Activity:moderate
3/4     A fully loaded 747 flies with only 3 engines:
        http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/04/ba.jet.ap
        Now I wonder if it can fly with just 2 engines.
        \_ This is news?  This is the reason there are multiple engines.
           God you people are stupid.  Do you have any idea what "tolerances"
           and "redundancy" are?
           \_ The fact that it can fly with three engines is not news.  What's
              news is that the pilot decided to continue its flight to an
              airport 11 hours away instead of landing at a closer airport.
              Redundancy in this case should be used to ensure safety, not
              profit.  Redundancy of this magnitude being utilized means that
              there is little additional redundancy available for safety.
              \_ You know not of what you speak.  ask a pilot.  If the FAA
                 gave them the okay, I trust them more than you.  Ever seen
                 an engine failure on a trans-atlantic.  Go tell _that_ pilot
                 he should land.
                 \_ '"We are concerned," said Laura Brown, an FAA spokeswoman.'
                 \_ I won't tell your trans-atlantic pilot he should land, but
                    I'll tell him he should land at the closest usable airport.
        \_ Maybe they saved a lot of fuel with only 3 engines *shrug*
        \_ In other news, SJ 757 flies on one engine:
           http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/baycitynews/archive/2005/03/05/plane05.DTL
           http://tinyurl.com/54pct (sfgate.com)
           \_ Bah, try zero (0) engines:
              http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/gimli.html
              \_ Thanks for sharing this, it's a really interesting article
                 \_ Wow, somebody on the motd is appreciative.  You're welcome!
                    \_ except for a few pathetic old farts who like to
                       make disparaging and caustic remarks (you know, t*m and
                       ily*s) most of us are actually pretty nice and
                       appreciative.
        \_ My guess is that it can cruise and land easily with two engines if
           there is a working one on each side, but it needs four to take off
           if it's fully loaded.
           \_ Your guess is wrong.  Almost stupid.
              \_ Okay, so what is right, then?  And what's your reasoning?
                 \_ You don't have 4 engines on a jet because you need the
                    power.  You have them because you are carrying people,
                    and mechanical parts can fail.
                    \_ Are you saying that a fully-loaded 747 doesn't need to
                       be at full-throttle when taking off?  And why most of
                       the jetliners don't have four engines?  Mechanical parts
                       on twin-engine jetliners don't fail?
                       \_ It doesn't need all 4 to take off, but if one failed
                          that early in the flight, they would more than
                          likely abort. And with your addition there, I'm
                          convinced you're just stupid.  Yes, twin-engine jets
                          have failures.  that's why they have 2 engines.
                          Again, if it failed on takeoff they would try to land
                          as soon and safely as possible.
                          \_ I think I get what you're saying.  You're saying
                             that 747s need only three engines while twin-
                             engine jetliners only need one engine, right?
                             \_ I'm not one of the posters above but
                                that sounds about right.
                                \_ I didn't know that a jetliner can safely fly
                                   with one working engine on one side and no
                                   working ones on the other side.
                                   \_ what engineer wouldn't put a safety
                                      margin on a plane where if one engine
                                      goes down, the whole plane goes down?
                                      \_ Engineers that designed single-engine
                                         planes. :-)
        \_ Just to make sure we all understand this correctly, the plane
           LANDED with three engines, then TOOK OFF again with three engines
           with a full load of passengers, because the captain thought it
           was ok?
        \_ Just to make sure we all understand this correctly, the plane also
           TOOK OFF with three engines with a full load of passengers, going
           from Singapore to London, because the captain thought it was ok?
2005/3/4-5 [Reference/Religion] UID:36532 Activity:high
3/4     LDS people: How would you respond to: "Are you saved?"
        - wants to learn more about Mormonism.
        \_ I guess it would depend on who's asking.  If it was a baptist
           preacher I would say, "Y-uh-esssss!  I'm suh-AVED!."
           Because, in the way they mean it, I am. If it was
           someone asking a deeper question, like, what exactly that
           means, I would probably explain.  Really, that's a prety random
           question.  -jrleek
           \_ To Evangelicals and other Christians, this is very important.
              How are people Saved?  In Mormonism, how are people "saved"?
              \_ Mormons, in general, don't use the word "saved," although
                 it does apply. One becomes saved when one repents, is
                 baptized, and turns their life to God.  They continue to
                 be saved as long as they are faithful and try to keep the
                 commandments.  (That is, as long as they are making
                 efforts to progress towards becoming more like Christ.)
                 One can lose this status by turning away from God, either
                 purposely or through inaction. (Although, it is usually
                 not our place to judge who is saved and who isn't, that
                 is between one and God.) One obtains "salvation" after
                 death when they are judged.  If they have kept their
                 covenants then they obtain salvation.  At least, that's
                 how I understand the terms.  emarkp might have more
                 to say. -jrleek
                 Addendum:  Part of the reason there's a divergence in
                 terms betwen most Christians and Mormons on this is
                 because most Christian faiths think of becoming saved as
                 an event.  Mormons think of it as a process.  Our purpose
                 on earth is to become more like God, not just to get
                 into heaven.  Although that's a nice bonus. :)
                 \_ If I thought my purpose in life was to be more like God, I
                    would definitely pursue a career in math.
                    \_ Heh, that's a good line.  Thanks. -jrleek
                       \_ I was only half joking.  Do you know any mormon
                          mathematicians?  It seems logical enough to me.
                          I've always  been an athiest, but the only time
                          I get to thinking a god might make sense is when
                          I'm studying higher math.
                 \_ Evangelicals would say that if you fully accept
                    Christ you are saved.  Sounds like Mormons say that that
                    is not enough.  Catholics say that fully accepting Christ
                    is not enough either.
                    \_ Yes, this and the trinity are the 2 two basic
                       elements that make up most "Mormons aren't
                       Christians" arguments. Although this particular one
                       is a very old argument, usually summed up as
                       "Faith vs. Works."  Prodestants say Faith,
                       Catholics say works, Mormons say both. -jrleek
                       \_ Do you mean Protestant instead of Prodestant?
                       \_ That's an oversimplistic way of looking at it.
                          The more correct way is that Protestants say
                          one is saved by Faith, and the proof of Faith
                          is Good Works. So it's not an either/or proposition,
                          the fact that you are saved means that you will
                          do Good Works. I don't know about Catholics, but
                          AFAIK the concept of being saved in Catholicism
                          is much more ritualistic, i.e. one is saved by
                          acknowledging the rites such as confession.
                          \_ Those "rites" such as confession are the ones set
                             up by Jesus Christ himself.  So those who
                             practice confessionare following what Jesus has
                             set up:
                             http://www.catholic.com/library/Confession.asp
                             \_ Bull-Shit. There is (at best) only indirect
                                evidence that Jesus Christ performed
                                confession to anyone. The only thing that
                                is semi-concrete is within the Pauline
                                letters. The concept of confession within
                                the Catholic church is purely a Romanesque
                                invention. If confession as we know it
                                was in fact part of JC's actions it sure
                                isn't contained in the four gospels.
                                It is definitely NOT up to the scale like
                                baptism or holy communion.
                                \_ If I ever start a religion, putting a hyphen
                                   in the middle of the word "bullshit" will be
                                   a sin.
                                \_ After his resurrection, Jesus passed on
                                   his mission to forgive sins to his
                                   ministers, telling them, "As the Father
                                   has sent me, even so I send you. . . .
                                   Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive
                                   the sins of any, they are forgiven; if
                                   you retain the sins of any, they are
                                   retained" (John 20:21-22)
                             \_ The word we LDS use for "rites" is ordinances.
                                Baptism for instance. -emarkp
                        \_ Catholics say both: Faith and Works.
                           \_ To both of the above: Yeah, it was meant as
                              an oversimplification.  I didn't want to go
                              into it.  Sorry. -jrleek
                        \_ Well, there's that whole "Book of Mormon" thing.
                           I wonder how many Mormons used to be Protestant
                           or Catholic. Do Mormons tend to know those
                           doctrines? It seems not, because to most of the
                           rest of us Mormonism is VERY VERY different.
                           \_ Huh?  A lot of Mormons used to be Protestant
                              or Catholic, the membersip is growing much
                              faster by conversion than by birth.  As for
                              the second sentence, are you accusing me of
                              not knowing the doctrines, or most mormons?
                              I was just making a generality about the
                              class of "Mormons aren't Christians"
                              arguments.  These are peculiar because they
                              have to concern fundemental differences
                              between the religions, in areas that are
                              agreed on my all other 'Christian' sects to
                              create the desired division. -jrleek
                              \_ This is an honest question. Converts can
                                 be coming from Islam or agnostics or
                                 whatever - not necessarily Catholics. Of
                                 the ones who were Catholic and who knew
                                 the doctrine (i.e. not Catholic in name
                                 only) why would they switch to Mormonism?
                                 I do not think most Mormons know the
                                 doctrines of other Christian Churches
                                 well, because if they did they would know
                                 the differences are not small (for better
                                 or for worse).
                                 \_ I admit that I cannot help you
                                    immediately on the Catholics turn
                                    Mormon problem, since I was never
                                    Catholic.  Email me, and I can get
                                    back to you with someone who was
                                    later.  (I know pleanty of converts
                                    from Catholicism)  Just for the
                                    record, I never claimed the
                                    differences were small, so I'm really
                                    not sure what you're getting at.
                                    At this point, please just
                                    email me. -jrleek
                    \_ To quote "Oedipus the King":
                       "Don't think for a moment that you can call anybody
                       happy until you know for sure exactly what is going to
                       happen to him right up till the end--that is, until he
                       goes down into the grave without having tasted misery."
                       I think most LDS would say, "well, not yet".  We tend to
                       think of salvation as the end product.  Even after
                       accepting Christ as Savior, it is possible to "fall from
                       grace".  Some evangelicals believe "once saved, always
                       saved", which doesn't make sense to me. -emarkp
2005/3/4-10 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:36533 Activity:nil
3/4     Soda could be coming down on short notice in the next few days.  It
        could be advisable to back up your data. --dlong
        \_ Other CSUA machines might be going down, too; the office machines
           are probably not where you want to put your backup.
           \_ Users are now not able to log into office machines.  Screwdriver
              had to be taken down suddenly.  Our apologies for any
              inconvenience this has caused. --dlong
2005/3/4-5 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:36534 Activity:kinda low
3/4     Anyone know a good place to buy a new Thinkpad for below MSRP?  I'm
        an alumnus so I can't use TSW.
        \_ just buy it from http://newegg.com.
           \_ I like them but they're all MSRP there.
2005/3/4-5 [Reference/Religion] UID:36535 Activity:high
3/4     Dear fellow Christians, why even bother talking to these anonymous
        cowards, gays, lesbians, liberals, hippies, and pagans who obviously
        will not change their minds about Christianity?
        \_ Dear fucktard, why does anyone talk to anyone they disagree with
           ever?  I'm not likely to abandon my athiest ways any time soon,
           but I sure apreciate hearing what some of the religious people here
           have to say, and so do a lot of other people.  Hearing other people's
           points of view is *interesting*.
        \_ Have you ever been to temple square in Salt Lake City?  You have
           to beat them off with a shovel.  It's like phishing, you only need
           to find one stupid chump, so you blanket your message as widely
           as possible.  -tom
        \_ The above content cannot possibly be written by a Christian because
           it's written on a Friday night when they go to church.
           \_ i do wonder about that. i mean if i honestly had faith that magic
              angels would live with me in paradise when i die, i would not
              give a shit about anything. would not give a shit when loved ones
              die, or anyone dies for that matter. whee they're with god! etc.
              i would not go on living the normal mundane life that i see all
              the religious folks do.
                \_ Don't be so sure:
                   Edmund: No, you see, the thing about Heaven, is that Heaven
                   is for people who like the sort of things that go on in
                   Heaven, like, uh, well, singing, talking to God, watering
                   pot plants... Whereas Hell, on the other hand, is for
                   people who like the other sorts of things: adultery,
                   pillage, torture -- those areas.
2017/09/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/25    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:March:04 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>