Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:February:24 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2005/2/24-25 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:36389 Activity:moderate
2/23    Does anyone else think it's lame that the abbreviation for linux
        distribution is "distro"?  Do linux geeks think it's spelled
        distr*O*bution, or something?
        \_ This is a fairly common way to make abbreviations in English --
           it follows the same pattern as "ammo", "lotto", "afro", "aggro",
           etc.  --mconst
           \_ mconst, how are you modifying motd?
              \_ I usually write the text in a seperate editor window, and
                 then cut-and-paste it in -- that way I can write slowly
                 without keeping the motd locked for a long time.  --mconst
                 \_ ah ok thanks. I was wondering how you typed so fast.
        \_ 'distri' does not roll off the tongue as well, and 'dist' is
           ambiguous and would be shortened to 'dis', which is even more
           confusing.  Do 'facs' machines annoy you too?
        \_ I bet you get really up in arms about ATM machine and VIN number
           don't you?
           \_ "Vehicle Identification Number number" doesn't make sense.
              \_ That's his point. "Automated Teller Machine machine"
                 \_ Some people like to say "NIC card" too.
              \_ Exactly.  Common (and accepted) acronymn usage in English is
                 to use the word for the last letter of the acronymn after the
                 acronymn.  English usage rules often exist because it's easier
                 to say or it sounds better than the alternative.  Learn to
                 live with it.
                 \_ Meh.  I think it has more to do with the way english is
                    parsed -- adjectives precede nouns (ie TUNA fish is the
                    same phenomenon as NIC card).  The acronym is treated as
                    as adjective modifying the type of the object.  If the
                    acronym was Card for Interfacing the Network, then I'd
                    bet it would be 'CIN card' rather than 'CIN network' as
                    your explanation would seem to suggest, since it's a type
                    of card rather than a type of network.  The fact that
                    the general type of the object is included with the
                    adjectival acronym is ignored by the layman.
                    adjectival acronym (and is in fact typically a noun) is
                    ignored by the layman.
                    \_ What are you talking about? TUNA is not an acronym.
                       \_ No, but it's a noun with a presumed type (fish) that
                          is often redundantly prepended to its superclass.
                          "TUNA fish is the same phenomenon" -- I didn't say it
                          was an acronym, but it's an example of the NIC card
                          construct.
2005/2/24 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:36390 Activity:high
2/23    Survey, do you still remember what you did the day before 9/11,
        and if do you what were you doing?
        \_ On 9/10, I posted 2 questions on motd, the Accuvue question and
           the Java == and equals(...) question. I didn't get to see the
           responses till now, how funny.
        \_ Working.  had a rehearsal that night (and the next night as well).
           Did Iolanthe with San Jose Lyric Theatre.  You wouldn't believe
           the outporing of appreciation for the performances (couple weeks
           later).  Everyone wanted something they could enjoy.
        \_ working.  I remember this old polish guy who lived through WWII
           running into the room and telling us not to panic, that we should
           listen to the news and just keep working as normal, which is
           exactly what we did(after making a couple phone calls).
           \_ What was on the news on 9/10/2001?
              \_ Gary Condit all day and night.
              \_ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/09/10/ED226834.DTL
              \_ http://tinyurl.com/6olqm (sfgate.com)
        \_ Remembering what I was doing when Kennedy was shot.
        \_ yes I do and I feel sad just thinking about it. I don't want to
           talk about it.
        \_ No, I don't particularly recall the day before 9/11, but I do
           vividly recall the morning of.  I remember waking up to NPR on the
           clock radio next to my then girlfriend's bed, hearing something
           about the World Trade Center being attacked, and
           thinking to myself ``Oh, it must be the anniversary of the World
           Trade Center bombing.''  I think the relationship was beginning to
           come to a close, though I didn't realize it at the time.  What's a
           little strange to me is that much of my memory that time period
           hazy, but I vivdly remember many of the little details from that
           morning, e.g. the smell of the sheets, the light coming through
           the window. -dans
           \_ WOW that's exactly how I felt! The little things... Also...
              my gf and I were woken up by a call, my gf's mom in Taiwan was on
              the other side telling us that both WTC towers had been attacked.
              I turned on CNN and it said only 1 tower was on fire. I thought
              it was just an accident, like the Empire State Building accident
              they had many decades ago and given that Taiwanese
              news were mostly trashy sensationalist news I thought they were
              just exaggerating. 30 min later CNN finally broadcasted the 2nd
              tower footage. A while later her mom called again and said one
              of the towers collapsed. I didn't believe it because I had never
              heard such a thing in my life, and because CNN didn't broadcast
              it. Surely enough 30 min later, CNN finally broadcasted the
              collapse. Then she called again about the 2nd tower collapse, and
              30 min later, CNN broadcasted that. It's weird how we get our own
              news later than people outside the US.
              \_ I first heard about the first plane a couple minutes after
                 it happened when Cmndr. Taco posted it to slashdot.  Slashdot
                 was pretty much the closest thing to real time all morning.
                 There were posts on slashdot from people who could see what
                 was happening outside their windows the whole time.
              \_ Same here.  My dad called me from Hong Kong to tell me to
                 turn on the TV when I was getting ready to go to work without
                 realizing that something was happening.
        \_ I was getting a demo system prep'ed for a customer were were
        \_ I was getting a demo system prep'ed for a customer we were
           visiting the next day. I was on a plane 1/2 way to my destination
           when the first wtc attack happened on 9/11. --ranga
        \_ Busting my ass to put together a report for City Council. Stayed up
           all night, went to sleep just as the first plane hit, then got told
           the report wasn't necessary.
        \_ Clearly Sodans have reading comprehension issues. As for me, I have
           no idea what I was doing on 9/10.
           \_ Quite a few got it right.  Read above.
              \_ Why is 9/10 interesting? It was a day like any other day.
                 May as well ask about 9/9, 9/1, and 7/29.
                 \_ Do you really need this explained to you, or are you just
                    being willfully obtuse?
        \_ I remember I was sitting at home, unemployed, feeling sorry for
           myself because I couldn't find a job. I spent most of the day
           playing WoW and applying for jobs.
2005/2/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:36391 Activity:nil
2/23    I love America!
        http://csua.org/u/b5x
        \_ John Ashcroft would love to talk to the PPP CEO. C'mon, it's
           NYC, anything liberal and evil's possible. They will never sell
           these things in holy places, like ummm, Texas.
        \_ "If the boys had used the card, they would have ended up on a Web
           site rife with the rawest closeup photos and videos of sex acts,
           including intercourse and fetishes."  OH MY GOD CALL A CHILD
           PSYCHOLOGIST, THEY'LL BE SCARRED FOR LIFE AND JOIN A GAY AL QAEDA
           SUPPORT GROUP!  Jesus H. Christ.  "Rife".  -John
2005/2/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:36392 Activity:kinda low
2/23    Since I can't find a CA newspaper that talks about this:
        Calfornia goverment ties Alabama for worst state government
        http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20050130-103554-6800r.htm
        \_ maybe you should try a non-moonie newspaper.
           \_ Sorry, here's the real source
              http://results.gpponline.org
              \_ here's a shock; a group funded by the Pew Charitable Trusts
                 (an evangelical "think" tank) gets reported by the Moonies
                 as thinking California has bad government.  -tom
                 \_ So, do you have actual issue with the results, or are
                    you just blowing smoke as usual?
                 \_ Uh, the Pew Charitable Trusts might have some religious
                    aspect, but they seem to give most of their grants to
                    center/left groups. Do you have any idea what you're
                    talking about?
2005/2/24-25 [Academia/Berkeley, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:36393 Activity:moderate
2/23    City of Berkeley sues UC Berkeley
        link:www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/10974138.htm?1c
        I always think these kind of lawsuits are funny.  If it wasn't for
        UC Berkeley, Berkeley would just be another part of Oakland.
        \_ I hope UC's lawyers crush these fuckers like little bugs.
           \_ From reading the article, it's not clear to me who's in the
              right, and correspondingly, right by how much.
              \_ I see what you're saying, but unless the city of Berkeley
                 has changed drastically in the six years since I left, I'll
                 side with the University against the City without bothering
                 to learn the details.  Fuck the city.
                 \_ Every time the UC expands into city land it increases the
                    city's costs and parking problems while taking away from
                    the tax base.
                    \_ Overall, UCB adds to the tax base by creating
                       high-paying jobs and adding population. It is to
                       Berkeley's benefit to have UCB. Without UCB Berkeley
                       would indeed be like Oakland.
                       \_ Not to mention attracting employers.  My first
                          employer was founded near campus years ago just
                          because of the supply of CS co-ops and fresh grads.
                 \_ You all have it backwards. The university has been fucking
                    over the city for years.
                    \_ How so?  Link?
                       \_ The original article gives several examples.
                          \_ NO it didn't.  You mean like this?
                             "UC Berkeley now pays more than $500,000 a year to
                             the city, mostly for sewage service, a campus
                             spokeswoman said. The campus has offered to
                             increase the amount to $1.2 million. However, city
                             officials say a fair figure would be more than $2
                             million."
                             Sounds like the city is a bunch of whiners.
                             \_ No, it sounds like they understand negotiation.
                                \_ Huh? So, they're getting screed because
                                   they're good at negotiation?
2005/2/24-25 [Computer/HW/Laptop, Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:36394 Activity:low
2/23    How do I make sound work after a suspend on a Dell laptop
        with FreeBSD 5, without rebooting? - danh
        \_ What's it doing?  Are you running esound or some other multiplexer?
        \_ just an idea, but sometimes muting and unmuting fixes some cards.
        \_ I figured it out, I unloaded then loaded some kernel modules
           and sound works. - danh
2005/2/24-25 [Computer/Companies/Yahoo] UID:36395 Activity:moderate
2/23    Anyone using Gaim with Yahoo? How come it never works for me? MSN
        works fine. FYI, in Yahoo Messenger, I use "Firewall with no proxies"
        \_ me, slightly patched version of 1.1.12, win32 and linux/x86
           I use no proxies, or firewall though.
        \_ latest version works fine for me.  No special config needed.
           \_ ditto --dbushong
        \_ There's a faq question on gaim's website dealing with this exact
           issue. The workaround doesn't work for all and doesn't work for me.
           Then again I can't get MSN to work either. Try the workaround.
           --paulwang
2005/2/24 [Health/Men] UID:36396 Activity:nil
2/24    Sometimes, drudgereport really gets it right (read it to the end)
        http://cbs2chicago.com/cooler/local_story_055110537.html
        \_ I don't understand what drudge has to do with this.
        \_ I like this quote: "She asserts that when plaintiff 'delivered'
           his sperm, it was a gift -- an absolute and irrevocable
           transfer of title to property from a donor to a donee,"
2005/2/24-25 [Consumer/Audio] UID:36397 Activity:moderate
2/23    How can you listen to non iPods in your car if you don't have a
        tapedeck? Are there iTrip equivalents or other car adaptor kits for
        things like the Dell DJ ?
        \_ There are non-iPod-specific devices that will take in an audio
           signal and broadcast on an FM channel.  Belkin makes one.
           \_ I'd like to add that since they are subject to interference they
              tend to work quite poorly in metropolitan areas.  Also, even when
              working perfectly, your audio quality is necessarily downgraded
              to FM. -!pp
              \_ Yeah, but is the tapedeck interface better or worse than
                 the FM interface in a metro area?
                 \_ Some tape players have very poor tracking, but in my
                    experience the FM interface is nothing but a giant headache
                    because you have to synchronize the car and transmitter
                    frequency, find an open channel (VERY hard), and then
                    change frequencies once you drive into another station's
                    tranmission range.
        \_ Wasn't someone talking about car stereos that have a line-in on motd
           a while ago?
           \_ BMW makes an accessory that allows you to connect any regular
              mini audio to your car's stereo. This is different than the
              iPodYourBMW thing they were advertising a while back.
           \_ I posted a link to a site that had adapters that you could
              install on any factory radio to get an aux-in.  I don't
              have the link at the moment, but I'm sure it'd turn up
              on a google search.
           \_ It was kind of a pain to actually locate one, but I found an
              Aiwa deck with a line-in jack on the front which I put in my
              car.  Some car radios have a line-in jack on the back (how
              useful is that?).  -meyers
2005/2/24 [Uncategorized] UID:36398 Activity:nil
2/23    jwang, please stop nuking anti-conservative stuff.
        \_ are you're not just noticing his scripts that parse
           the wall_log for the web pages?  get a clue.
           \_ they deal with wall, not motd.
2005/2/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Recreation/Travel/LasVegas] UID:36399 Activity:nil
2/23    Oldie but goodie.  Cheney playing poker.
        http://www.thepoorman.net/archives/002789.html
2005/2/24-25 [Recreation/Dating, Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:36400 Activity:moderate
2/23    How to dump your gf/bf guide:       http://www.dumpjeschatje.nl
        \_ english?
        \_ A complementary site: http://www.eDumped.com
        \_ I think you're addressing the wrong audience here.
          \_ Guten tag, German John understands, German John translates, ja?
             \_ Horgen borgen lutefisk bork bork bork ick nickt vershtayn
                Dutchy speaky you NAZI FUCK, Why do you hate America?  -John
2005/2/24 [Uncategorized] UID:36401 Activity:moderate
2/23    [anonymous claims of jwang nuking stuff deleted] -not jwang
        \_ This claim is backed up by my logger:
           http://csua.berkeley.edu/~kchang/intellidiff
           Every time there's a massive deletion, jwang's name's on it.
           This phenomenon has been recorded for several months. HOWEVER,
           I support his actions because he cleans up political trolls.
           \_ There is NO DOUBT that jwang possesses weapons of mass
              destruction!
              \_ WMD related program activities.
                 \_ jwang and kchang have formed an axis of evil.
                  \_ well I don't consistently nuke stuff like jwang does. I
                     do praise him for his efforts.
2005/2/24 [Uncategorized] UID:36402 Activity:nil
2/23    [duplicate deleted]
2005/2/24-25 [Recreation/Dating, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:36403 Activity:very high
2/24    Ilya and Brett, why do you love the motd?
        Estimated motd edit frequency by users:
        * 28 ilyas
        * 22 brett
        * 11 jctwu
        * 6 dgies
        * 9 jrleek
        * 3 scotsman ecchang john jwang danh
          \_ your script is weak.  this is 3rd entry I have made
             all month. - danh
             \_ the above is based on last 24 hours, and yes my script sucks
                but it's better than nothing. If you have a better snooping
                technology that you'd like to share, email me   -kchang
                \_ No, it's not better than nothing.  Incorrect information is
                   less useful than no information. -emarkp
                   \_ yeah just like the Bible. WHY THE FUCK DID YOU OR
                      SOMEONE ELSE CENSOR THIS?
                   \_ it is when I control the information, muhahaha  -kchang
                      \_ Hi, just thought I d drop by and point out that
                         you are a fool. -- ilyas
                         \_ if I'm a fool then you're a bigger fool. I believe
                            you spend a lot more time on motd than me. Get a
                            life ilyas.                         -kchang
                            \_ You've GOT to be kidding.
                            \_ You don't even understand why you were called
                               a fool, which is fairly impressive. -- ilyas
                               \_ you are on top of the pile.
                         \_ Hey, aren't you guys in the same small department
                            in the same school?
                            \_ Yup. -- ilyas
                               \_ Can you see eachother from your respective
                                  terminals?
                                  \_ better yet, can you set up a MOTD down
                                     there and leave us alone?
                  No, and I've never talked to ilyas, although I've heard -/
                  a lot about him, like he's a very condescending
                  character. I'm still waiting for him to insult me
                  \_ Hah!  You've heard this in the department?  -- ilyas
                  in person. It's bound to happen one of these days. By the
                  way this reminds me of a joke where all the inmates in this
                  jail have heard every single jokes possible in the world and
                  memorized them, and in fact, they simply refer to them as
                  numbers. For example, one of the inmates would say "Joke
                  #36403" and all the inmates would burst into laughters.
                  Likewise ilyas could borrow this idea and simply insult
                  me via #'s, where 1=Lazy Bitch, 2=You're a fool,
                  3=Get a life, etc etc.
                  \_ h07 42n ch1x!
                \_ Your script is signicantly more useful than nothing.  We
                   all have a brain and can decide how accurate it is, and
                   perhaps future incarnations will be.  It's not like we'd
                   use this log to invade Iraq or squish jwang.  Thanks kchang!
             \_ Are you suggesting the mighty kchang is WRONG?
                http://csua.berkeley.edu/~kchang/intellidiff
                \_ the above is posted by lye
                \_ The obvious problem is that his method (kchang, what IS the
                   method?) only knows for sure about (a subset of?) those who
                   write the motd in the way that's logged by his thing.
                   \_ yeah I'm offering you a lower bound on the number of
                      people who modify, vs. having no bound at all. So
                      what's new? How would you get a tighter bound?   -kchang
                      \_ Why do you give a shit?
                         \_ motd gives me inspiration for a PhD thesis
                            \_ Funny.  Given the number of phd theses(including
                               mine) that are being delayed by time wasting
                               on the motd, I'm glad to see that the motd
                               might actually have some positive effect on
                               someone's phd.
                            \_ I think that's the scariest thing I've seen
                               all day.
        \_ not sure lye, why do YOU love the motd?
           \_ Because it is so full of love.  --lye
        \_ You have a 40% error. -named person
           \_ dgies, tell us which ones and maybe it'll be fixed
              \_ And non-out-of-context Ohio Players orgasms and things. -John
        \_ I love it because it lets me waste taxpayer money with impunity!
             -- ilyas
           \_ Communist!
              \_ There is such a thing as "tax" in communism?
                 \_ In Soviet Russia... oh never mind.
           \_ Man, that has got to be the world's slowest way to waste
              taxpayer money.
              \_ A million monkeys on a million discussion boards will
                 eventually something something...
        \_ You have a 40% error. -named person
           \_ dgies, tell us which ones and maybe it'll be fixed
        \_ Does your script also measure people who don't use /csua/bin/me?
           \_ no it only measures nice people.
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\_ GAAAAAYYYYY
\_ Oh that's sick.
\_ wow that's remarkably effective. you fucker. I'm at work here.
   \_ And yet you still pulled the image up in an editor to add your
      comments?
\_ How about one with a man and a woman!!
\_ keywords: ascii art gay masterbate masterbation
2005/2/24-25 [Health/Women] UID:36404 Activity:low
2/24    I'm starting my Ohio Players collection. Which albums should I buy
        first? -- ulysses
        \_ Ohio Players albums are best judged by the sexiness of the women
           on the cover of any given record.  It's too bad you probably
           aren't buying them on vinyl, as the gatefold sleeves with the
           naked women curled seductively around firehoses (or whatever)
           have to be seen to be believed.  I recommend Fire followed
           by Skin Tight and Honey. --lye
           \_ Based on your criteria, though, wouldn't Orgasm, Pain or
              Pleasure come first? :) Thanks. I was already leaning toward Skin
              Tight or Orgams so I appreciate the input. -- ulysses
              \_ Luckily for you, nobody in the CSUA ever takes motd quotes
                 out of context.  -John
                 \_ Actually, I was kind of counting on it. I think sb should
                    make an OPs fridge magnet set. -- ulysses
        \_ It doesn't matter which you get, so long as it's on 8-track.
2005/2/24 [Science/Disaster] UID:36405 Activity:nil 58%like:36406
2/24    If you were on the beach, would you have underestimated the power
        of the tsunami as well?  Be honest.
        http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2005/02/23/international/i185139S54.DTL
        \_ To be honest, yeah, I probably would have.  This reminds me of
           rant by a black guy saying the white people are so sheltered
           that they never expect anything bad to happen to them; so they
           don't run in situations like this.
        \_ This is depressing. It reminds me of The Far Side where the big
           python just ate something really huge, and the parrot keeps saying
           "Molly wants a cracker. Don't eat me, don't eat me, ahhhhh!
            Molly wants a cracker."
2005/2/24-25 [Science/Disaster] UID:36406 Activity:high 58%like:36405
2/24    If you were on the beach, would you have underestimated the power
        of the tsunami as well?  Be honest.
        http://tinyurl.com/64vfb (sfgate.com)
        \_ I think it depends on whether you think about tsunamis as being
           a real posibility or not.  I've worked where they were a pretty
           serious threat(on the Aleutian chain), and they had tsunami warning
           alarms and expected people to have "tsunami bags" which they would
           bring with them into the hills if the alarm went off.  I think
           the idea was that they would warn you long before you saw a wave,
           though.  Of course, for me it was all theoretical, since I worked
           on a boat and wouln't have had much of a chance unless we were
           either in deep water or tied up at a dock. In my line of work
           being flexible enough to kiss my ass goodbye was more usefull
           than a tsunami bag.
        \_ Since there were no warnings, and since they wouldn't have felt
           the earthquake, yeah, i would not have known what i was looking at.
        \_ To be honest, yeah, I probably would have.  This reminds me of
           rant by a black guy saying the white people are so sheltered
           that they never expect anything bad to happen to them; so they
           don't run in situations like this.
           \_ I think another issue is that a lot of these people were visitors
              and might just mistake the water going away for a normal tidal
              occurrence... whereas if it happened at the beach where you grew
              up you'd know to beat a path for high ground.
           \_ yeah, all those white people in phuket and sri lanka
              \_ You didn't read the article, did you?
           \_ Yeah, in Jackass, when they dropped from ceiling dressed
              as masked robbers, the black dude in the room ran out
              immediately and continued running far far away.  The
              white guys in the room just stayed, curious to see
              what's going on.
        \_ This is depressing. It reminds me of The Far Side where the big
           python just ate something really huge, and the parrot keeps saying
           "Molly wants a cracker. Don't eat me, don't eat me, ahhhhh!
            Molly wants a cracker."
        \_ I've been camping on a beach when a tsunami warning was issued.
           We stuck around and drank beers. Fortunately for us, we only got
           a two inch swell. We really lucked out.
        \_ were most deaths from the initial impact?  Drowning?  being swept
           to sea?  Disease?
        \_ No.  I know that if the water goes out that fast to run like hell.
           \_ which direction? toward the newly formed shore to find
                seashells you cannot normally get?
           \_ Well, I know now.
              \_ If I survive a tsunami because of this, the motd will have
                 saved my life.  That's really scary.
                 \_ never read _Childhood's End_?
           \_ Isn't it the case that if you're around to see the water
              rush out, you're pretty much fucked?
              \_ Well, you certainly won't outrun the water, but you still
                 might have time to get to a rooftop or something.
                 \_ Wave speed was much faster in Sri Lanka (deep water)
                    than Thailand (shallow water).
                    There is a story that several minutes warning by a little
                    girl who learned about tsunamis in sk00l saved several
                    rich white people on one Thailand resort beach.
                    \_ WHat heppened to the rigch black people?
        \_ I think I would have noticed the water going out, would have
           gotten freaked out and started to leave, nervously scanning
           the horizon. When I saw the big wave coming, I would have run
           like hell. I wouldn't have known to run at the first warning sign,
           because I never knew that before, but I am naturally a skeptical
           and somewhat paranoid person by nature. I don't know if this
           would have been enough, but I would have had a chance.
2005/2/24-25 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Languages] UID:36407 Activity:high
2/24    How do people who use a pen to write in Arabic and Hebrew avoid
        smudging the letters as they write?  This seems like a design flaw.
        \_ I'm left handed and manage English just fine. Although when learning
           Persian (also right to left), I did like the fact that there was
           less smear potential.
           \_ I'm amazed that my totally random post was replied to by a
              lefty who's studied Persian.  Go motd!
              \_ Yeah.  Sometimes I think we need to step back and truly
                 appreciate the utility of the motd.
        \_ When I was little I would end up with the side of my hand totally
           filthy with graphite.  Now I don't have problems except with
           particularly slow drying ink. Now that I think about it, my hand
           position when writing looks a little contorted compared to most
           peoples'.  So I guess that's how I avoid smudging.  -lefty
        \_ I don't have preferences in terms of right or left hands.  So,
           when I start to learn how to write Chinese, I choose to write with
           left hand for this particular reason.
           \_ Does your handwriting look different from right-handed people's?
              My brother's starting to write Chinese, and he keeps complaining
              that the characters don't look right when he writes them with his
              left (preferred) hand.
           \_ huh?  I thought Chinese is written left to right in PRC,
              and it's top to bottom, then right to left, (so you get
              more drying time) in Taiwan.  Even people in Taiwan
              go left to right when writing in horizontal rows as
              opposed to traditional vertical rows.  In fact, I have
              a friend who is a lefty but writes Chinese with right
              hand, because Chinese is more easily written with right
              hand, as each character is written diagonally from top
              left corner to bottom right corner.
              \_ Pick up any Chinese book, and it's top to bottom, right to
                 left.  That's why the cover page is on the bottom of the
                 book or the binding to the right, depending on your
                 perspective.  And, yes, smudging was an issue when I learned
                 to write with the brush (or whatever it's called in English).
                 Though caligraphy was done on a very porous and therefore
                 quick-absorbing paper, and that ameliorates the problem
                 somwhat.
                 \_ In calligraphy, isn't your hand and arm not supposed
                    to be resting on the paper irregardless?
                    \_ Yep.  The correct way to hold the pen has your hand
                       and wrist elevated above the paper.  However, one still
                       has to account for jacket sleeves or just incorrect
                       posture.
              \_ Chinese has been traditionally written top to bottom then
                 right to left for thousands of years.  It was the PRC who
                 imported English-style writing to Chinese, together with
                 English characters for phonetics.  Taiwan sticks with the
                 the traditional way of writing and phonetics.
                 the traditional way of writing and phonetics.  -- Hong Kong
                 Chinese
                 \_ I am aware of that.  I don't mind top to bottom but
                    why right to left (column wise)?  It's inconsistent
                    with the top-left to bottom-right manner where
                    each character is written.  - tainan taiwanese
                    \_ Good point.  I have no idea.  -- Hong Kong Chinese
           \_ THERE ARE NO LEFT HANDED CHINESE.
              \_ Haven't you seen when the 1.2 billion people in PRC clap their
                 hands, they clap their left hands over their right hands?
                 They are all left handed.  -- troll
              \_ Well, traditionally, left-handed kids are "trained" out of
                 their tendency to use their left hand.  After all, the left
                 hand is the hand sinister.
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