Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:January:24 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/1/24 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President] UID:35866 Activity:nil
2005/1/24 [Uncategorized] UID:35867 Activity:high
1/23    ilyas, do you believe in meritocracy?
        \_ Are you asking whether he believes on exists, or whether
           he likes them?
           \_ I think Ilyas believes in philosopher kings.
        \_ Nah. -- ilyas
        \_ I believe in mediocrity! -troll
2005/1/24 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:35868 Activity:kinda low
1/23    Recommendation for free software that will take DVD as input and
        generate an mpeg,avi,wmv,etc file from it.  I'm not looking for
        fancy stuff.  I really just want something that is like "ripping
        DVDs for dummies" as I'm not a pc hacker guy.  Is there such a free
        tool?  If not, what for-profit sw is out there to do this.  I need
        something that works, nothing fancy.  Thanks.
        \_ PIRATE!  PIRATE!  Somebody call the MPAA!
        \_ DVD Decrypter will rip it to your HD. DVD Shrink will fit it
           onto one DVD+R. Both are excellent freeware programs.
2005/1/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/HateGroups] UID:35869 Activity:very high
1/23    Amusing TNR aticle on far-far-lefties
        \_ Frothing lefties is more like it. Gyah. Why can't we liberals as
           a whole just jettison these tinfoil hatters once and for all? Is
           it because they have all of the phone bank lists? Gyah!
           \_ What makes you think that we embrace them? I guess they do
              do all the hard work like organizing the big anti-war
              \_ I read a fascinating article that pointed out that the
                 far-left, frothing radicals are the only ones who have the
                 tenacity to hunt down the permits, wrangle over the port-a-
                 potties, and galvanize people to show up, which is a pity
                 since they're the same people who scare Ma&Pa Voter into
                 voting for the conservatives.
                 \_ ...uh, right.  Yet somehow ma and pa voter don't draw the
                    connection between the klan rallies and anti-abortion
                    terrorism on the right and mainstream conservatism.
                    \_ Uh, right. What party has the only sitting Senator that
                       was a Klan member?
                       \_ Byrd joined up in a region where joining the Klan
                          was like joining the Lions Club, and he has since
                          apologized for it and denounced the organization.
                          If you're going to blame Byrd for something he
                          recanted, let's arrest Bush for cocaine possession.
                          \_ Yeah, right.  Were any Repubs former Klansmen the
                             left wouldn't shut up about it.  The explanation
                             above would be considered an unacceptable excuse.
                             \_ Read up on Strom Thurmond and the Southern
                                Manifesto, please.  -John
                                Manifesto, please.  That said, it is an
                                unacceptable excuse, but hey, land of second
                                chances and all that, eh?  -John
                                \_ And Strom Thurmond is what? That's right.
                                   He's dead.
                    Now why would that be?  Liberals shouldn't blame themselves
                    for rightwing media.
                    \_ Very true! Nor should they confuse passionate opposition
                       with reasonable opposition.
                    \_ Plenty of people connected the dots between the
                       Republican Party and clinic bombings. It is one of
                       the reasons the Republicans did poorly in the early
                       90s and all those federal laws protecting abortion
                       were passed. The Religious Right realized the folly
                       of a minority trying to use force to convince a
                       majority in America, and went back to saner tactics.
2005/1/24-25 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:35870 Activity:high
\1/24    On 21264, you have 80 physical registers of which 31 are visible.
        However, on P4's you have 128 physical registers, of which
        8 of them are visible at one time. The rest are used for
        speculative storage and renaming (to prevent WAW and WAR hazards).
        So, why 128 physical registers when only 8 are exposed (I presume
        they're only ax-dx, and eax-edx)? Isn't that a lot?
        \_ It's been a while since I've taken 152 but I believe this has
           something to do with register renaming. Many CPUs have extremely
           deep and wide execution pipelines allowing for a massive amount
           of in-flight instructions. You cannot have 40 instructions in-
           flight, for example, with only 8 registers. When an instruction
           is issued, it is placed in a reservation station. Its regsiter
           specifier is renamed to point to other reservation stations if
           an instruction is already in-flight. When that in-flight
           instruction is completed, the reservation station for the
           pending instruction will source the write value of the instr
           that it was dependent on. Since there can be more reservation
           stations that user accessible registers, this is how we get
           the 80 physical vs 31 visible registers.
           \_ Which semester did you take 152?  I didn't learn these in Sp93.
              \_ Perhaps buy a more recent Comp Arch book (the H&P version,
                 not the P&H one). It's covered in the section on Tomasulo's
                 algorithm. This is more graduate level stuff so it's not
                 surprising that some profs don't cover it in 152.
        \_ I think by 8 exposed registers they mean eax-edx, esi, edi, esp,
        \_ The P4 is a CISC machine and does a lot for one instruction.  Hence
           the work done per instruction is higher, and hence more registers
           are necessary.  When I learned RISC programming in CS60B it was
           noted that 32 registers were available, but by convention most were
           reserved--so you only really had 8-12 registers you could really
           work with.  Also, Intel has made the L0 cache very fast so that
           there isn't much of a hit moving data from cache to register.
           \_ I respectfully disagree with the post above. CISC requires
              FEWER registers than RISC because not as many intermediate regs
              need to be kept around, and if L0 was so fast there's not
              "much of a hit" then FEWER registers would be required. Different
              codes require very different number of registers; what all the
              physical registers are used for in x86 are supporting massive
              out-of-order execution, multiple simultaneous threads, loop
              unrolling, etc. ... the existence proof is that Intel would not
              have put them there unless they helped performance.
           \_ Intel machines may be technically CISC, but they're more RISCy
              than stated above.  Most compilers write code that's very RISC-
              like.  However, since backward compatibility at every step is
              key, the Intel line has been straightjacketed into the eight-
              register world.  Fortunately (or unfortunately if you hate the
              Pentium architecture), Intel (and AMD) easily finds ways around
              that.  After 30 years shackled to the same base instructions
              I'm not quite sure why Intel doesn't build a second assembly
              language to fully leverage the architecture - having a special
              mode for this - but I guess it would be more trouble than it's
              worth to do so.
              \_ They did try, and it went over like the Hindenberg (c.f.
                 \_ IA-64 sunk for other reasons.  You don't need an
                    expensive 64-bit processor without a market in order to
                    allow some programs to execute the microcode (or some
                    one-to-one translation thereof) directly.
2005/1/24 [Politics/Domestic] UID:35871 Activity:nil
1/24    So, ilyas, what is the libertarian solution to problems like this?
        \_ motd troll tax. -- ilyas
           \_ So, in other words, you don't have a solution, right?
              \_ I am no longer interested in having serious discussions on
                 the motd.  If you really want to learn about libertarianism
                 take a poly sci. class, read some books, even email me.
                 Don't troll the motd though. -- ilyas
        \_ I'll answer for him:  the solution is a little chat session
           with a baseball bat, without such piddly-squat legal obstructions
           as aggravated assault laws.  -John
           \_ Libertarianism: detente thuggery.
           \_ I've maintained for years that the only effective deterrent for
              spam is a guy named Guido with a baseball bat.
2005/1/24 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:35872 Activity:nil
1/24    A military personnel must support his/her supreme commander, ie. the
        current president.  Doesn't it conflict with his/her freedom to vote
        for a challenging candidate during an election?
        \_ brain classification: small.
        \_ Premise is incorrect. Reevaluate and resubmit.
        \_ Supporting your commander-in-chief has nothing to do with voting for
           the next one (even though that could be the same person).
2005/1/24 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:35873 Activity:nil
        \_ The motd has gotten so goddamn stale and boring in the last few
           days that I'm actually glad to see freeper troll back.  Keep
           up the good work!
        \_ It's more like dirty than violent.
        \_ Proof that the American Justice system still works:
2005/1/24-26 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:35874 Activity:low
1/24    How do I find out the maximum allowable process size on lesbians?
        \_ malloc
           \_ uh, how about finding out without getting squished?
        \_ Run "limit".

[ deleting bitch ]
           \_ limit is a csh thing.
              \_ isn't "ulimit" the bash equivalent?
2005/1/24-25 [Computer/Networking] UID:35875 Activity:moderate
1/24 (
        "WEP, as you probably already know, is an encryption scheme that can
        basically be broken by anyone smart enough to install Linux on a
        laptop."  Okay, so we all know WEP < WPA < WPA2, but is hacking WEP
        as easy as implied above?
        The only way I see WEP having this big a problem is if there is a
        freeware program which obtains WEP keys for you.
           \_ thanks, I guess it is that easy, if you are constantly sniffing
              (e.g., your neighbor's wireless)
              \_ Well, it is not as easy as the software writer wants you
                 to think. I tried to hack my *own* WEP key and could not.
                 \_ From what I understand from the FAQ, you need six months
                    of browsing the net when you're home at night to sniff
                    enough packets to be able to get the WEP key for your
                    own wireless AP/router.
                    \_ See below.  This is the trivial part--you can sniff
                       a 'join' (which is cleartext) and use this to send
                       fake disconnects.  Most wifi drivers will attempt to
                       reconnect to their last peered AP--washrinserepeat and
                       you can collect enough traffic v. quickly.  Oh, and
                       WPA is also vulnerable:
        \_ Hacking WEP is not "simple".  The principle behind it is simple,
           and ways to collect enough data to brute-force a key (i.e. faking
           joins/drops over the unencrypted carrier channel) are simple.
           Gathering enough traffic can take some time, and then you still
           have to brute force the key.  802.11b has some structural
           limitations anyway, and the main issue with WEP is its name, as
           it is no way equivalent to a wire (which is equally easy to
           break into if you know what you're doing) in terms of being
           a private medium.  There are, however, enough tools out there to
           make it feasible for the average kiddie.  For a very well
           designed and documented selection of tools, have a look at
           auditor at .  -John
2005/1/24 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:35876 Activity:low
1/24    Stupid post censored by non-liberal.
        \_ The children of Democratic chiefs are running amok!!1!
        \_ Thank god you are here to save us from our own stupidity.
           \_ Nothing to save, it was pretty stupid.  This discussion is
              infinitely less stupid than that post was.
2005/1/24-26 [Computer/SW/Unix, Computer/SW/P2P] UID:35877 Activity:kinda low
1/24    Of all the p2p software, which is the fastest at transferring large
        (>1GB) files from one person to another?  Some are premised on
        multiple concurrent uploads to speed up the download (e.g.,
        BitTorrent), which is great for popular files, but I have a large
        set of data that would only be interesting to one other person.  Is
        FTP still the best way to go?
        \_ Split up the file and use multiple FTP connections.  The improvement
           over single FTP connection is large if the distance is great (e.g.
           between California and Japan).
           between California and Japan), where the bottleneck is the roundtrip
           time instead of bandwidth.
        \_ p2p isn't about moving files from one user to the next.  In your
           example above, justputting the files on a website would be as fast
           \_ One caveat with just putting files on a website, most Apache
              builds can't send files larger than 2 gigs. -dans
        \_ Also, how much data are you talking about?  Tens of gigs, or
           terabytes?  Once you get into the terabyte range you're probably
           better off just yanking the hard disks, and fedexing them.
           Sneakernet is still the bandwidth king. -dans
           \_ "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
               tapes." -some guy in the fortune file
        \_ I have files around 2-5GB in size, so FTP sounds like the way to go.
           Any reccommendations for free, secure FTP servers for Windows XP?
           Going back to the p2p model, at what point does it become efficient?
           That is, how many people does it take to share a file such that it
           gets distributed fairly quickly?  --op.  (ps - these are VMWare
           \_ If you can initiate the transfer you might consider scp or rsync
               with the appropriate flag to compress on the fly.  As to your
               p2p question, I think your understanding is a little flawed.
               What p2p lets you do is aggregate bandwidth from more than one
               source.  Simplifying a lot and ignoring overhead, it's going to
               take the same amount of time to transfer a file from a single
               server connected via a T1 (1.5 megabits per second) as it would
               to transfer a file via a p2p network where six sites with
               256 kilobit per second connections are hosting the file.  Add
               more users and you add more bandwidth.
2005/1/24 [Academia/UCLA] UID:35878 Activity:very high
1/24    ilyas, tell us about the UCLA Westwood babes. What are some
        differences between Cal/UCLA babes and what can you generalize. ok thx
        \_ 2 h0t 4 U. -- ilyas
           \_ ilyas is correct.
              \_ Can anyone provide a theory as to why this might be true?
                 I believe you both, but why would there be more attractive
                 women in one area than another?
                 \_ I think it's partly cultural (people in LA, both male and
                    female, pay a lot more attention to apperance than
                    female, pay a lot more attention to appearance than
                    elsewhere, thus maximizing what God/genetics gave them),
                    and partly, attractive people come to LA in vain hopes of
                    winning the movie star lottery. -- ilyas
                    \_ It is more a case of the latter and thus UCLA is not
                       really where to go to find attractive people. That
                       is, most of them are not students. Go hang out in
                       Santa Monica, on Robertson, or on Melrose to find
                       the hot women who are here as model/actress/whatever.
                       Lots of women are also glorified whores who are
                       looking for wealthy men to be their sugar daddy. I
                       don't know why SF does not have this phenomenon like
                       LA and NYC do, but it doesn't. Probably because a
                       rich geek is still a geek.
                       \_ Not true at all. UCLA chicks are hot. So the former
                          is quite true. Some of the hot chicks have brains,
                          and they all have at least above-par SAT scores
                          and GPAs (which doesn't say shit about intelligence).
                          \_ The women off-campus are far hotter. You went
                             to Cal. They all look hot to you.
                       \_ Actually, it does, just not to the same degree.
                          Cf. girls from Marin who grew up on Mummy and Daddy's
                          money who now live in SF and dig The Scene-- and you,
                          if you're buying the drinks and the Fendi bags.
                          \_ If they are from rich families can't they buy
                             their own Fendi bags? I don't see the point of
                             being a whore when you are already rich,
                             although I guess it describes Paris Hilton.
                             \_ Women are all whores. It's part of culture...
                                the men always provide for the women, buy them
                                jewelry etc. Rich women just play at a higher
                                game level and don't need to settle down.
                    \_ People in LA are beautiful and stupid. -ausman
                       \_ This forces me to downgrade my estimation of my own
                          intelligence even further. -- ilyas
                          \_ And upgrade your own estimate of your beauty,
                             to be consistent, I hope. -ausman
                             \_ I ll settle for being satisfiable. -- ilyas
                                \_ Do you violate the compactness theorem?
                                   \_ I'll violate yermom's theorem
                       \_ Not quite. The beautiful people are stupid, true.
                          There are also lots of smart and successful
                          people. They just tend to not be beautiful.
                          \_ I didn't mean every single one of them.
                             I would think that was obvious. Are you
                             from LA, perchance?
                             \_ Your statement seems to imply all of them,
                                but your explanation is fine.
          \_ I don't believe this theory. Give us proofs, like
             average measurement of body fat/weight ratio, the curvature
             degree average, or something quantatively. I mean, this
             is all subjective. In fact you guys are biased because you're
             happy with the beautiful coastal weather, free beer or
             something else. Let's see data.
             \_ De grapes.  Zey are zo zour!
             \_ Just go hang out in West LA. I have had at least 3 very
                attractive women who worked in West LA tell me that they
                felt bad about themselves after spending every day there.
                \_ Lots of fake boobs in LA and other plastic surgery.
                   \_ So if a woman has had liposuction does your dick
                      \_ Dude, there's *a lot* more to good sex than mounting
                         and thrusting; not only interms of enthusiasm, but in
                         terms of what she's willing to do, and whether it's
                         pleasant when she does it, or just damn painful.
                         Otherwise, you're better off fucking a sack of
                         potatoes, since they don't ask for dinner afterward
                         and will at least stay moist from beginning to end.
                      \_ Only if she wants a pearl necklace.
               Los Angeles ranks the same as Miami
               \_ LA's great, but it's very specific (blonde and implanted).
                  NYC in the summer time has some incredible eye candy for
                  \_ As an LA resident I can say that this is a stereotype.
                     There are lots of Latina, Jewish, Middle Eastern,
                     Indian, and other hotties.
                     \_ Don't forget Armenian.
                        \_ I included them as Middle-Eastern.
                           \_ Armenians are not middle eastern.
                              \_ If that's not the Middle East then what is it?
                                 Yes, I realize they are not Arabs and are
                                 from a Christian country but it looks like
                                 the Middle East on a map.
                                 \_ Armenians are Eastern European.
                                    \_ Not in race, language, culture, or any
                                       other way.
                                 \_ Jew land looks also looks like middle east.
                                    \_ It is the Middle East, too!
                                    Difference is that many people are dilute
                                    Jews so you get blonde Jews and such.
                        \_ you missed African American, you RACIST
                           \_ Asian, too.
                  \_ My dates in L.A. have generally had smaller breasts, not
                     larger, and they haven't been blondes.  They have,
                     however, been hotter.  They take more time to take care
                     of their appearance since it's more valued here.  That's
                     hard to "prove," but it's easy to see.  The same, by the
                     way, is true of men.  That's as opposed to Berkeley,
                     where concern for appearance takes up less than a minute
                     of many people's day.  Berkeley is sort of the anti-L.A.
                     on the time/money vs. looks trade-off spectrum.
          \_ my theory why ilyas feels miserable in the land of the beautiful:
             \_ I can only be truly happy on the motd, the land of the trolls.
                  -- ilyas
             \_ Luckily, we don't all have the same standards of beauty.
2005/1/24 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:35879 Activity:high
        What happened to the First Amendment? We will fight back and
        we will not rest until we get our messages across on every
        single newspaper ads, magazine ads, and commercials.
        \_ I know this is a troll, but advertising is not free speech.
           \_ Well, not quite.  If Rolling Stone ran the ad, and the state
              banned the issue, that would be a violation of free speech/press.
              In contrast, Rolling Stone refusing to run the ad is not
              a violation.
              If I posted logical, persuasive anti-freeper statements on
     and they were all wiped by admins, that would
              not technically be a violation of the 1st Amendment.
              \_ Plus, your account would be shut off.
           \_ Still, it's always kinda funny to see the shoe on the other
2005/1/24-25 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:35880 Activity:very high
1/24    Why doesn't the motd, the csua FAQ, or policies/motd have
        information about how to write to the motd without clobbering
        others' musings?
        \_ csua doesn't recognize motd.public officially. There was a time
           when it was publicized on the main web site but some prick decided
           to take it out.
           \_ named paolo,pst,pollux
              \_ Because random hosers were trolling with incredibly offensive
                 anti-muslim diatribes, which were starting to appear in
                 google, and, despite the weak ``not the opinions of the csua,
                 blah blah blah'' disclaimer, this would likely have landed
                 the csua in deep shit for falling afoul of campus and asuc
                 hate speech rules.  Given the context of the decision, it was
                 a good one, one that the entire politburo weighed in on.
                 \_ Well kchang has a pretty hilarious catchphrase on his
                    motd archive that's appended to anything potentially
                    offensive.  And having motd.public but not putting
                    anything in the newuser guide what it's about is on the
                    bad side of cretinous, no matter what the original
                    justification is.  Essentially, you're saying that the
                    CSUA allows something to exist, but refuses to either
                    provide instructions on how to use it, or to permit others
                    to create such instructions on how to use it that can be
                    easily RTFM'ed by new members.  Dumb dumb dumb.  -John
                    \_ well my original intention was to store only useful
                       tech stuff, like Linux and such. It's sad to see most
                       of the stuff archived in the past 2-3 years are
                       trolls/political trash.                  -kchang
                       \_ Problem easily solved -- delete the trolls from the
                          archive.  -- ilyas
                          \_ you were not around when psb and I had this same
                             discussion. I was going to delete them, but
                             psb stopped me from doing so. For one, the auto
                             categorizer's not 100% proof and there may be
                             stuff erroneously deleted. The other debate had
                             to do with integrity and credibility of
                             Kais Motd. But most importantly, psb said so.
                             So all the political posts today exist thanks
                             to psb.                            --kchang
                    \_ John, that's not what I'm saying at all.  I was just
                       explaining the actual history behind *why* motd.public
                       is no longer one link down from the CSUA home page.  As
                       for lack of instructions that may be easily RTFM'ed, I
                       don't think the CSUA README or FAQ that appear in new
                       user accounts have been updated in in years (though I'd
                       be very happy if I was wrong about that fact). -dans
                 \_ that was 2001, and we were at war. Things are different
                    now, how about reverting the decision in the next csua
                    meeting? jvarga? paolo? anyone?
                    \_ Actually, that was 2001 and we were not at war.  We
                       didn't go to war until after September 11, and we don't
                       appear to have achieved any of the objectives of the
                       subsequent warmongering.  Oops, sorry for introducing
                       facts into the discussion.  And if you want the
                       politburo to change the policy, why not *gasp* attend a
                       politburo meeting and ask them yourself? -dans
                        \_ I wouldn't mind except the drive is 400 miles
                           \_ politburo@csua still works.
                    \_ Do you still call them Freedom Fries?
                 \_ I thought Politburo closed the motd / removed motd.public
                    because a soda user felt threateaned by the "kill all
                    muslims" post.  The CSUA getting in trouble with the
                    University issue seemed more peripheral.
                    \_ One particular politburo member yanked it because he
                       and/or his girlfriend were offended.
                       \_ He should have just set up a script to delete the
                          MOTD every 3 minutes instead.  -tom
                       \_ I think paolo is the only person capable of trolling
                          the motd without posting to it.  Are you guys going
                          to be ranting about this in 2011?
                          \_ In September especially.
           \_ If CSUA doesn't recognize it, why does it still copy its content
              to motd.public?
                       \_ Wow.  Your ability to rewrite history to your liking
                          in the absence of actual facts must provide you with
                          limitless hours of amusement. -dans
           \_ If CSUA doesn't recognize motd.public, why does it still copy its
              content to motd?
2005/1/24-25 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion] UID:35881 Activity:very high
1/24    Pro-life gaining momentum, with only 34% in the US in favor
        of abortion.,2933,145221,00.html
        Also 30 states ready to ban abortion:,2933,134530,00.html
        I'm thankful for God and George Bush for making America
        a better place to live. God Bless.
        \_ Coathangers: They're not just for clothing any more.
        \_ "According to a New York Times/CBS News poll taken in November, 34
           percent of those surveyed wanted to keep abortion generally
           available, as it is now. Forty-four percent wanted stricter limits
           and 21 percent wanted an outright ban."
           != "34% in the US in favor of abortion"
           \_ Why don't "pro-life" types complain about invetro fertilization?
           \_ Why don't "pro-life" types complain about invitro fertilization?
              By their, and the so called "Army of God"'s, definitions, you
              shove a half dozen "live babies" (fertilized eggs) into some
              40 year old career woman's barren womb, and expect most of them
              to die.  "Live babies" which are not injected, and are later
              not needed, are thrown away to die cold and alone in a bio-
              hazard bag.  But none of these clinics get mail bombs, anthrax
              threats, or even picketers!  What gives??
              \_ God works one step at a time.  Ideally, childless couples
                 could adopt kids who were not aborted.
                 \_ Your God sucks. My God, Enthuramanien, executes 4 steps
                    per clock on average.
              \_ Some of us *do* complain about it.
              \_ you are right and many pro-lifers do not like
                 invitro fertilization.
              \_ You're looking for consistency from a group who thinks
                 Spongebob will taint their children, but not Joe Camel?
              \_ I don't know about that, but there are lots of militant
                 radical feminists who believe that in-vitro fertilization
                 is a curse, further enslaving women to the
                 male-created "responsibility" of producing babies.
                 These people are really quite insane.
           \_ Sigh.  You forgot the relationship that states honest != OP.
        \_ I never understood the issue of the need for late term abortion.
           Pro-Life / Pro-Choice aside, if a women decides to abort the baby
           6, 7, 8 months into pregnancy, isn't that just plain irresponsible
           on the woman's part?  I mean, what was the women doing for 6 months?
           Couln't she have decided by then?  I'm speaking of normal scenarios.
           Rape, safety of mother's life and etc... are of course another
           story.  Someone care to enlighten me?
           \_ You haven't understood because it's a non-issue.  The number of
              procedures as most people understand the definition is
              infinitesimal.  This whole non-issue is sold so legislation
              with vague wording can be pushed through by upsetting people
              with a fiction.  Such legislation is the lip of the slippery
              \_ Perhaps someone should define Pro-Life and Pro-Choice for me.
              \_ Would you say that the number of late-term abortions in the
                 US is greater than or less than the number of multiple
                 murders of wife and unborn child?  Or the number of death
                 penalty executions?
                 \_ You're heading for a false dichotomy.  Late-term
                    abortion is ill-defined (purposefully).
                    abortion is ill-defined (purposefully).  And I don't
                    have numbers, but I'd be willing to bet less.
                    \_ "The number of procedures as most people understand
                       the definition is infinitesimal."  So, "as most people
                       understand the definition", how "infinitesimal" is it?
                       Fewer than death penalty executions?  Fewer than wife/
                       unborn infant multiple murders?  Fewer than Columbine
                       style massacres?
                       \_ Do you think a woman who finds out her baby has
                          0% chance of survival at birth and decides to
                          have an abortion should be thrown in jail.  This
                          is what "late-term abortion ban" is about.
                          \_ So the definition of "late-term abortion" requires
                             a non-viable fetus?  Reference please.
                             \_ No.  The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of
                                last year makes the process this woman would
                                use ILLEGAL.
                                \_ Now, you do understand that this is not
                                   the same as when you claimed that '"late-
                                   term abortion ban" is about [banning
                                   abortions of non-viable fetus]'.  How about
                                   banning "late-term abortion" except in
                                   cases where the fetus has a "0% chance
                                   of survival at birth"?
                                   \_ Of course, but bad law/policy is no
                                      excuse.  This is only one aspect of the
                                      discussion.  An abortion is one the
                                      hardest decisions a woman would ever
                                      have to make.  But if she makes it, she
                                      should have access to the safest
                                      procedure possible, and should not be
                                      thrown in jail for it.
                                      \_ Even if the fetus were viable outside
                                         the womb, the woman should still have
                                         an unlimited right to choose?  How
                                         about if the woman were in the midst
                                         of labor when she makes a last minute
                                         choice to abort?  An extreme case, of
                                         course, but should it be illegal or
                                         should that still be a woman's choice?
                                         \_ An idiotic "case".  If these are
                                            the hairs you're splitting, you need
                                            to reexamine your view of people.
                                            These things don't need to be
                                            \_ This made me laugh out loud.
                                               Infanticide (which is what this
                                               'case' describes) does not
                                               need to be legislated, you say?
                                               How about plain old murder?
                                               I wonder what you think needs
                                               legislation.  Probably whether
                                               someone can own a gun or
                                               something vitally important
                                               like that.  -- ilyas
                                            \_ Why does this not require
                                               legislation?  Are you claiming
                                               this will *never* happen?
                                               this will *never* happen?  You
                                               are so good at having opinions.
                                               Now please support them with
                                               sound reasoning.
                                      \_ Killing my wife is one of the hardest
                                         decisions I could ever have to make.
                                         But if I make it, I should have access
                                         to the safest procedure possible,
                                         and I should not be thrown in jail
                                         for it.
                                         \_ Getting a tattoo is one of the
                                            hardest decisions I could ever have
                                            to make.  But if I make it, I
                                            should have access to the safest
                                            procedure possible, and I should
                                            not be thrown in jail for it.
                    \_ How many Columbine style massacres were there last
                       year?  Fewer than that too?  How about genocides?
                       Or gas chamber death camps?  Are you really sure that
                       things that happen rarely or almost never at all are
                       not worthy of legal prohibition?
                       \_ Specifically worded, perhaps not; laws that are
                          ambiguous, such as the so-called "Partial Birth
                          Abortion" ban, are just devious legislation.
                          \_ So you would support legislation banning "late-
                             term abortion" so long as the act was
                             specifically defined?
                             \_ I actually wouldn't oppose it (though I doubt
                                I'd support it). The point is moot. Above
                                poster is correct. The existing attempts at
                                "partial birth" and "late term" abortion bans
                                are all examples of gaming the process. The
                                people who might write such a law won't because
                                it isn't in their interest. -- ulysses
                                \_ Thank you.  This is a much more defendable
                                   position than the simple doctrinaire "it's
                                   a woman's choice" most of the pro-choice
                                   crowd spews.  You do realize that you're
                                   slipping into the zone of the 44% who
                                   support some limit on abortion?
                                   \_ You do realize you're in the demographic
                                      that has no inkling of the history of the
                                      effects of abortion being illegal?
                                      \_ Life is complicated and subtle.  A
                                         limit on abortion is not the same thing
                                         as a blanket prohibition on it.  We
                                         are a different people than we were
                                         40 years ago.
                                         \_ Life is complicated and subtle. Its
                                            beginnings are much more so. We can
                                            agree that late-term-abortion-as-
                                            birth-control is abhorrent, but we
                                            have plenty of room to debate
                                            abortion as mercy-killing (Tay-
                                            Sachs or even Downs Syndrome).
                                            \_ And I would have no problem
                                               with "late-term" abortion
                                               under special circumstances.
                                               I suspect I would even have no
                                               problem with the reciprocal,
                                               where "late-term" abortion is
                                               only illegal for special circum-
                                               stances.  But I am not comfort-
                                               able with absolutist yea or
                                               nay position.  As we both agree,
                                               life is complicated and subtle,
                                               and the absolutist position is
                                               such a blunt instrument.
                                                \_ The problem is that as soon
                                                   as you start defining
                                                   specifics both sides will
                                                   drag it into the courts
                                                   to either restrict or
                                                   loosen the limits.  This
                                                   will go on forever.
           \_ Third trimester abortions are illegal in most states, except
              when the health of the mother is a factor.
        \_ "Pro-life." Right. How many of those who are "Pro-life" are anti-
           death penalty? Call it what it is: Anti-abortion. The term "Pro-
           life" is inherently a ridiculous strawman.
           \_ Pro-life is pretty accurate.  The fact is that, had the mother
              not aborted, there would very likely be a little baby at birth
              Pro-life people weigh the life of the baby yet to be born
              equally with the life of the mother.
              \_ So why not call themselves "Anti-Mother"? Aside from the
                 Kevorkians and the nihilists, everyone is pro-life. To be
                 anti-life is just plain silly. The tag is meaningless because
                 it does nothing to describe the actual goals of the people
                 so labelled, namely, to illegalize abortion. So say Anti-
                 Abortion and get on with it.
                 \_ Shrug.  In their view, if you think abortion should be
                    legal, you are pro-murder, which is worse than anti-life.
2005/1/24 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:35882 Activity:nil
1/24    Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss:
        \_ MASS GRAVES!
2005/1/24 [Uncategorized] UID:35883 Activity:nil
        \_ So 3 years ago.
2005/1/24 [Uncategorized] UID:35884 Activity:nil
1/24    What is a good international callback service?
2020/07/16 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:January:24 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>