Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:January:21 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2005/1/21-22 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:35832 Activity:high
1/21    Can you guys help me out? I'm trying to expose the Amway business
        model and I'm doing research. What are some past companies that
        operate like Amway? I remember there was one in the 70s and one in
        the 80s but they're defunct because of lawsuits. I can't remember
        their names. Any info you guys have, like the people behind it, and
        how they got sued, etc would be great. Thanks.
           I was approached by this guy from INA.
        \_ Herbalife
        \_ Market America
        \_ expose Amway?  What part are you trying to expose?  I don't get
           it.  They're obnoxious, but I don't think it's illegal.
           \_ expose that while a very few percentage of people actually
              do make money, more than 97% of them never made more than
              $100 a year, and in fact, more than 50% of them lost money
              because they were buying Amway products for themselves so
              that they could meet the money quota for bonuses.
              \_ Aren't you about 30 years late with this news?!
                \_ try 50 years late. Well I'm just annoyed because I just
                   found out my sister and my aunt joined it. HOW STUPID!!!
                   I always thought only uneducated ppl joined these things,
                   but boy, was I wrong.
                   \_ According to the DSA, in 1996, 59.3% of American
                      distributors were female, 23.4% male,and 17.3% couples...
                      The restraints for women still in the regular workforce
                      in addition to the pressure to help the family have made
                      direct selling very attractive to women. Many DSO's
                      directly appeal to this need. -from the article above
        \_ Cutco
        \_ Do those encyclopedia or vacuum cleaner (Kirby) salepeople count?
           Or those water filter people I saw once.
           Man, the Kirby guy I saw years ago seemed sooo annoyed when we
           didn't buy his fancy vacuum and he cleaned our large living room
           carpet for free.
2005/1/21-22 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:35833 Activity:nil
1/20    Can you guys recommend some good photo gallery software?  I have
        lots of pictures that I'd like to put up on a personal server, but
        don't have any experience in this field.  I hoping for something
        simple and elegant and hopefully with thumbnails on an index page
        of some sort. Any thoughts?
        \_ Gallery.  -John
2005/1/21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:35834 Activity:very high
1/20    NY Times opinion        username/pw:  nty42322
        "In January 1945, with World War II still raging, Franklin Roosevelt
        insisted on a low-key inauguration. Already gravely ill, he began his
        address by saying, "Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Vice President, my friends,
        you will understand and, I believe, agree with my wish that the form
        of this inauguration be simple and its words brief." Times have
        changed. President Bush and his equally tone-deaf supporters spent the
        past few days partying hard while Americans, Iraqis and others
        continued to suffer and die in the Iraq conflagration. Nothing was too
        good for the princes and princesses of the new American plutocracy.
        ... As the well-heeled Bush crowd was laughing and dancing in tuxedos
        and designer gowns, the situation in Iraq was deteriorating to new
        levels of horror. The Black Tie and Boots Ball was held on the same
        day that 26 people were killed in five powerful car and truck bombs in
        \_ I don't know if I agree with your point, but I think it's pretty
           darn cool and considerate that you posted a user/pass.  -John
        \_ As if you cared when sanctions were killing Iraqis. C'mon
           you won't admit it but if Kerry won, there'd be just as many
           balls, just as big of a parade, and with Kerry's tone - even
           longer speeches.
        \_ It's obvious that the NYT and you, the poster, obviously know
           nothing about history. May I remind you that William Henry Harrison
           died from pneumonia due to giving out a 2 hour speech in bad
           weather and having attended no less than half a dozen balls
           commencing that night? This kind of commentary is the usual
           leftist drivel is the sort of crap that just plain undermines
           the Democrats. Before you believe in something, or before you
           post, try actually doing some research on the history of
           inaugration. And lest you be too ignorant to forget, LBJ's
           inaugration was hardly a small affair. The point, for the denser
           of the crowd, is that there is nothing different about
           this inaugral that is different from those performed since
           the beginning of this country. Attempting to dredge up
           one which actually IS and attempting to discredit the current
           one, however, is just really bad journalism. (William Henry Harrison,
           for the clueless on the MOTD, was our 9th president and served
           for some 30 odd days before dying).
           \_ So your point is that it's OK for Bush to have an extravagant
              inauguration while Americans and Iraqis are dying in his
              mistaken war because most other presidents are just as bad?
              Or is your point that Harrison was stupid and so its OK for
              Bush to be stupid too?  Why shouldn't people who have
              loved ones in Iraq be upset with the president for celebrating
              while people are dying?  -!op
              \_ I don't think that's his point.  Not that I particularly like
                 the idea of any Bush inauguration, low key or not, I think
                 his point is that you're being hysterical.  -John
           \_ You're right.  They do have the right to party it up while
              Iraq is turning to shit.
        \_ FDR was Stalin's best friend.  In fact FDR was jealous
           of Stalin because he was a more effective collectivist.
           So perhaps if FDR spent more time reflecting on his
           objectives rather than worrying about appearances,
           Eastern Europe would have not been subject to 50 years
           of Soviet rule, who were equivalent if not worse
           than the Nazis, and the Cold War may have been averted.
           Let's not forget the NYTimes glorified, almost deified,
           Uncle Joe during the '30s and '40s.
           \_ And the Republicans used to be for the little guys, and the
              Dems were the party of choice for crypto-Klansmen. So what?
              You think the same guys who were writing those glowing reviews
              of Uncle Joe are still writing the OpEd page for the NYTimes?
              \_ In spirit yes... except they are secular Jews and
                 \_ +5 self troll!
                    \_ have you ever seen any of the board of NYTimes
                       editors?  It is not a troll just a simple
                       fact of life.
                       \_ Is William Safire a gay Jewish man?
                          \_ you leftists are fed this propaganda from
                             the NYTimes and you don't even know who
                             ths source is.  Yes Safire
                             is Jewish.
                             \_ This thread has really diverged.  If you
                                wish, you may start another thread about
                                your argument, since it's hard to tell how
                                serious you're even taking yourself.
                                \_ Does anyone know when the motd anti-semite
                                   came on board?  I don't remember all these
                                   weird tinfoil hat-ish rants about Jews
                                   starting until very recently...
                                   \_ How do you know I'm not Jewish?
                                      I am moderately pro-Isreal...
                                      But I am not going to ignore
                                      obvious constructs of our society.
                                      Do you really think AIPAC is
                                      larger than any other lobby
                                      except AARP for fun?
2005/1/21-22 [Uncategorized] UID:35835 Activity:nil
1/20    Anyone else having problems with email redirection via
2005/1/21 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:35836 Activity:moderate
1/20    Someone was asking for eggs?
        \_ That's a snowball dork!  Anyway, the security was way too tight
           for eggs.
           \_ A snowball?!  Obviously my elementary school teacher was not
              on Bush's security detail.  I was told those things were really
              dangerous.  Repeatedly.
              \_ It must be hard being so stupid.
2005/1/21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:35837 Activity:nil
1/21    Inauguration marred by cultural misunderstanding: (Yahoo News)
2005/1/21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:35838 Activity:high
1/21    The 50 Most Loathsome People Of 2004
        Nice to see Bush and Kerry both made the list!
        \_ Along with Jenna Jameson and You.
        \_ Bizzarely so far left that sometimes he actually end up on the
        \_ Was this written by aaron?
2005/1/21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:35839 Activity:moderate
1/21    Turn Your Back on Bush is ineffective. What a bunch of stupid hippies.
        Why didn't they just do Throw-Eggs-And-Tomatos on Bush? That would
        have been more interesting.
        \_ Because they'll then get arrested.
        \_ All the tomato-throwers moved to Canada, duh!
2005/1/21 [Recreation/Humor] UID:35840 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
1/21    For the Motd Jew-hater.  You may need one of these to protect against
        the Zionist conspiracy:
2005/1/21 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:35841 Activity:very high
1/21    Remember I was talking about my O'Reilly watching younger brother who
        was thinking of joining the National Guard?  He signed up a couple days
        ago:  Six years active duty, two years reserve, requested duty is
        Infantry.  (Could've signed for less, but he thought, why not?)
        He's shipping out to Ft. Benning March 1.
        I also think Starship Troopers (the book) played a big role in his
        \_ Hmm.  Your little brother doesn't sound mature enough to have been
           making decisions like that.
           \_ He also said most of the people there were 18-19 year old
              jittery chain smokers. (not to disagree with you)
              And it was also true he was a lot brighter than the average
              recruit.  He did qualify for pretty much anything on his exams.
              He also said they told him requesting Infantry is rare.
              \_ Yah.  I completely believe that.  As for 18-19 year old, etc,
                 well...that's the best age for the army to get 'em, when
                 they're still young and programmable.
              \_ I know a guy who scored in the 99th percentile on the army
                 intelligence test and requested... infantry.  He said he
                 wanted something to toughen him up.  As luck would have it he
                 spent a year in Hawaii and the last 2 in a quiet corner of
                 \_ What is it with these guys?  I know somone who did exactly
                    what you described.  He spent four years driving humvees,
                    and standing around guarding stuff in various god forsaken
                    countries...and now he has a JD from a top ten law school.
                    \_ Do they teach you to drive?
                       He can't drive yet, even though he's 26.
                       \_ uhhh...I guess if this is a contest to see who's
                          army infantry friend is more eccentric, I just
                          lost.  Yes, he could drive.
        \_ GOOD. If he gets killed, that's one less Reddie voting.
           \_ You just told someone you hope their little brother gets killed.
              I assume this is some sort of parody.
              \_ Nah, it's just a friendly troll.  I took it in full humor. -op
                 \_ Of course it's a friendly call Dimitri!  Of course I like
                    to call and say hello!
                    \_ sowings, I presume.
                       \_ Hi paolo!
        \_ I wish your brother good luck in his assignments. When he realizes
           that he doesn't want to be another statistic, remind him to take as
           many tests as he can-- the higher rank he gets, the less likely he
           is to end up in a bad place.
           \_ He says if he gets promoted he wants to deserve it -- because
              he may be in charge of people who die.  Under this reasoning,
              he didn't bother to submit proof of college credit for the
              automatic pay grade increase.
        \_ Tell your brother that at least one sodan wishes him the best,
           thanks him for his service, and understands that he's fighting for
           the freedom I enjoy.
           \_ I actually want to tell him his commander-in-chief is a moron,
              and it isn't very noble to die or come back maimed under a
              moron's leadership, even with the best of intentions.
              Instead, I told him his family would support him no matter what.
              I won't tell him what you asked me to tell him, since I think
              he needs to understand the more important point.
              \_ Yes, it's much more important to be a self-absorbed prick
                 trying to 'teach' people 'lessons' then actually conveying
                 a genuine show of support from people.  Btw, I wish him
                 the best also, and thank him for volunteering. -- ilyas
                 \_ What part of me telling him his family would support him
                    no matter what is not conveying a show of support from
                    people?  What part of not telling him my true feelings
                    that he is going in for the wrong reasons is trying
                    to "teach" people "lessons"?  I think you are assuming
                    a lot.  And I think you are much too rash in calling
                    me a self-absorbed prick. -op
                    \_ I think it's the 'I think he needs to understand
                       the more important point' phrasing that set me off.
                       I don't think you are in any position to be
                       teaching this guy anything, certainly not 'life lessons,'
                       but that's my opinion.  -- ilyas
                       \_ ilyas, I think you're much too emotional right
                          now to think clearly.  This is also his problem.
        \_ Here's what I don't understand. If you liberals hate Fox News
           so much, why don't you ask why liberal media anchormen don't
           look as good as say, Sean Hannity and Brit Hume? I mean,
           everytime I think about liberals, I think about this fat guy
           wearing shorts and sandles and baseball cap shouting for
           social reform or green power or something like that.
           \_ What liberal media anchormen are you talking about?
           \_ Because it's not PC to have good-looking people to appear on TV.
        \_ Your brother is a hero.  You should be proud.
           \_ Actually, I'm not proud at all.  I'm more disappointed that
              perhaps I didn't argue with him more.
              Then again he did not relent in shouting down everyone when
              the family was watching the Democratic National Convention
              as much as my mom and I said, "If you don't want to listen, don't
              watch", but he kept on yelling.  Yeah, my mom and I weren't
              saying anything at all -- we just wanted to watch, but that
              wasn't possible.
              And he still thinks there's WMDs, because he knows "how the
              world works", even though I told him everything in the Kay
              and Duelfer report, and the reasons why Saddam wanted to play
              "Yes I have it, but you can't actually prove I do."
        \_ I hope your brother survives, and wakes up.  The whole thing of not
           submitting college credit to forgo the pay increase... He's got a
           misplaced sense of nobility.  I hope he survives and doesn't see
           too much.  And I hope if he does see too much, that the VA can
           actually get itself more funds so they can help him.
           Does he know that O'Reilly didn't serve?
2005/1/21-22 [Uncategorized] UID:35842 Activity:nil
1/21    Could static electricity break a PCMCIA type3 ethernet card?
2005/1/21-22 [Recreation/House] UID:35843 Activity:kinda low
1/21    I want to grow some tomatoes this summer but haven't done so before.
        The variety I want is 'Black Prince' which is '70 days, indeterminate'
        When should I plant the seeds in the little germination pots?  This is
        for growing in the SFBA.  Thanks.
        \_ In California you can grow tomatoes year-round. Start them
           indoors if you can. Heck, I have even grown them on a window
           sill. Digitalseed says plant seeds March-July, with April and May
           being optimal.
        \_ Ignore the above.  Plant any time you are sure nights wont get
           below 50.  Temperatures lower than that can really hurt a maturing
           plant.  Even one night can be bad for the plants.  They wont die
           but they will take longer to grow to maturity.  Longer than if you
           had just waited till the temperatures got warmer.  If you know
           what you are doing you can shelter them in a variety  of ways to
           get them to grow earlier but I'd stick with the basics.  Remember
           good tomatoes need insane amounts of sun and rich soil.  Also water
           them really well at first, but cut way back on the water once the
           tomatoes start getting ripe.  The secret to firm tomatoes is don't
           overwater.  Oh and may I suggest planting at least one Early Girl?
           \_ You're an idiot. -tom
           \_ Yes, ignore Digitalseed. What do they know over an anonymous
              motd poster? Plant April or May and the above is moot.
           \_ Why (besides faster gratification) the Early Girl?  Black Prince
              tastes like salami! -op
              \_ Dude, you can grow stuff that tastes like salami?  That's
                 awesome.  Do you know of any eggplant or lettuce variants
                 that taste like mozzarella or beer?  -John
                 \_ Well it basically tastes like tomato, but there's a strong
                    meaty-earthy-savory flavor that reminds me of salami.  All
                    ripe tomatoes contain glutamate (the 'savory' taste
                    chemical) but these probably have more than most.
2005/1/21-24 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:35844 Activity:moderate
1/21    Some PC hardware questions, any advice much appreciated:
        1) Anyone have experience with Maxtor Diamond 250GB SATA drives?
        2) I read once that it's not smart to buy all drives in a RAID array
           from the same mfgr/vendor (batch).  Is this still the case?
           \_ What a bunch of rubbish. You are MORE likely to run into problems
              when mixing different drives which are more likely to have
              different disk geometries and other parameters. Not all
              controllers can deal with this well.
        3) On a RAID controller (in this case a 3Ware 9500-S) does the # of
           ports refer to how many drives can be attached, or does it have
           something to do with data transfer channels? is a bit
           vague on this.  Thanks for any clarifications!
        \_ I've been hearing bad things about the reliability of 250MB+ drives.
           Also, I hate maxtor drives because they all get noisy within a year
           or two.
           \_ Thanks.  Any drive model recommendations for SATA 200-250GB?
              \_ 8 port means 8 drives.  You may want to look into hitachi
                 300GB drives.  They're supposedly more stable compared to WD
                 and Maxtor 250GB drives.
        \_ Don't by CRASHtor drives unless you hate your data and love
           sending your drives in for RMA. I have had several 120GB
           drives and 250GB drives made by Maxtor die w/in six months
           of buying them. I switched to WD and Seagate and haven't
           had any problems with either.
           \_ Thanks for all your comments, it's nice to get 1st-person
              opinions.  This is a great help.
              \_ I've had a maxtor drive that's worked for over 6 years now.
                 I have a 120GB maxtor that's been working fine for over a
                 year. YMMV, in many cases it's just the luck of the draw.
2005/1/21-24 [Computer/SW/Languages/Web] UID:35845 Activity:nil 50%like:34159
1/21    Can someone recommend a good low-priced place to provide web
        \_ Sitelutions is a buck a month for their basic setup, and I've had
           no hassles.
                \_ Thanks. I just checked them out, but they don't allow
                   PHP in that basic plan.
        \_ I've heard good things about hostrocket but have never used them.
        \_ I know people who've had good experiences with 100M
           of space for $20/year. PHP, MySQL, shell, email. I haven't used
           them myself. -gm
2005/1/21-22 [Uncategorized] UID:35846 Activity:nil
1/21    Do you or know anyone who has Attention Deficit Disorder? ADD or
        ADHD, try this:
        \_ Huh, what were you talking about?
2005/1/21-24 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:35847 Activity:nil
1/21    I have a LaTeX file that I need to convert to Microsoft Word.  I expect
        to cut and paste the text easily enough, and can just re-write the
        small number of equations, but I'm stuck on what to do with the
        references.  Does Word have an equivalent to \cite{nameofreference}?
        Is there an easy way to translate the "\cite" commands in latex
        into the Word equivalent?  Thanks.
        \_ everyone I know who has gone to the dark side uses something
           called EndNote which can import/export bibtex bibliographies.
           I imagine there is a lot of manual work ahead to insert all
           the references.
           \_ Thanks.
2005/1/21 [Uncategorized] UID:35848 Activity:nil
1/21    Jenna or Barbara?  (Barbara is the blonde?)
        \_ The non-fat one is hot.
           \_ That's be Barbara.  Jenna is the fat blonde.
        \_ Barbara is definitely hotter!
        \_ Or Vanessa, with that big nose?
           \_ I prefer the Bushes
        \_ Among all the First Daughters, I think the Bush Twins are the best
2005/1/21-22 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:35849 Activity:high
1/21   Thought this was an interesting read:
       I tend to agree with him, as I've seen relatively little gain
       from such languages as C++ and Java in terms of creating better
        \_ I thought it was pretty sophomoric, really.  OOP is a tool that is
           often used poorly.  If used well, his comments are all wrong.  But
           that's the same of any technique.
           \_ Actually, I think you missed the point. If a tool is often used
              poorly, then why do we have the tool in teh first place? i.e.
              if a hammer is poorly designed so that people use it the wrong
              way, get rid of the hammer and find a better one. OO is often
              used poorly because it's been designed poorly. I.e. people
              think it's "cool" to use C++ or Java to program in because
              it's got wonky crap features in it like templates and
              object overloading and container classes. There are so many
              tacked on features in Java nad C++ now that you need tomes
              and tomes of printed material to just document the stuff.
              So programming becomes basically a websearch project, which
              it shouldn't really be. We don't need six layers of abstraction
              to get to pushing bits over TCP/IP. We also don't need
              six layers of abstraction to calculate the cost of a pair of
              shoes being bought online.
              \_ Ok, I'm not pp, and have absolutely *no* opinion on the
                 relative merits of C or C++ or Java or whatever, but I have
                 to say something about your tool comment.  In my observation,
                 the *vast* majority of people do not know how to use a toilet
                 plunger correctly.  Does that mean we don't need toilet
                 plungers?  Can you suggest a superior tool for the job?
                 One other solution is to have a basket full of pointy sticks
                 next to the toilet which users can use to break up their turds
                 with a stabbing motion.  This is certainly a more
                 self-expanatory tool, but it is also inferior.  First of all,
                 it doesn't help you if the offending turd has already passed
                 the U-bend, and second of all, it leaves you with a shit
                 covered stick that you have to dispose of.
              \_ Hehe.  Wonky features like container classes.  I think the
                 fault of C++ is not the amount of features it has (most
                 of them are there for a reason) but the way they fail to
                 come together as a coherent, organic whole.  Stroustrup is
                 a smart guy, but an artist he is not.  It's telling that
                 you think Java is featureful, Java is one of the most
                 featureless languages I know of. -- ilyas
                 \_ Well Strou built it on C so it can't really help being
                    ugly. It feels like it wants to be another language but
                    it lives in C land for practicality. Kind of how Windows
                    lived in MS-DOS for so long.
              \_ In the US of A, we have the FREEDOM to use C++ poorly
              \_ No, I didn't miss the point.  The point is crappy OOP gives
                 crappy results.  OOP used well has huge benefits.  That's the
                 difference between a beginner and an experienced SE.
2005/1/21-22 [Academia/StanfUrd] UID:35850 Activity:moderate
1/21    Where's the Cal Pride? (, Stanford Freshman nudish calendar)
        \_ some humanitarian needs to do the rest of us a favor and buy all
           of those calendars to burn them
        \_ that chick is cute
           \_ Yeah, but the pictures is retarded, and it makes he looks so
              as well.
              \_ Speaking of retarded....
              \_ I agree. Cute girl and bad photograph. Are there more?
        \_ "Co-creators ... with both holding cameras in strategic places. One
           camera has a telephoto lens."
           "A helpful friend shields her nether regions with the Time magazine
           Person of the Year cover, showing President Bush."
           Ha ha!
        \_ Mired in liberal bureaucracy.
2005/1/21-22 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:35851 Activity:moderate
1/21    More fun from Bus 19 in Berkeley:
        "Don't believe the news, it's controlled by the Jews! "
        \_ Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that the Palestinians
           don't blame the Germans. After all, if there wasn't a
           holocaust there may have not been an Israel. Of course,
           if there had been no WWII they'd still all be british
           \_ The animosity from Muslims to Jews is written is the Quran.
              "Jews are evil" is practically part of the religion.
        \_ Well I KNOW news is controlled by the Jews, that's the only reason
           I believe it.
        \_ this is no different between liberals and conservatives, each with
           strong and incompatible ideologies. It's actually like motd.
        \_ What irritates me the most is not these idiots, nor the ones
           waving "love-it-or-leave-it" signs at NASCAR events--in fact, I'm
           encouraged by the fact that they're able to do this at all.  I am
           just discouraged by the existence of people who actually believe
           this sort of claptrap.  -John
2005/1/21 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Reference/History/WW2] UID:35852 Activity:nil
i/21    Another related article, especially for the "Useful Idiot" lefty
        on the MOTD who regurgitates everything that Mike Moore says:
        \_ "Let's start with a test: Do you have any opinions that you
           would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your
           peers?  If the answer is no, you might want to stop and
           think about that. If everything you believe is something
           you're supposed to believe, could that possibly be a
           coincidence? Odds are it isn't. Odds are you just think whatever
           you're told."
           He definitely has the Limbaugh trick of starting with a ridiculous
           assertion down.  -tom
           \_ So, why would this be a ridiculous assertion? Do you actually
              believe whatever you are taught to believe? If so, then you
              really do have a small mind, which many on the MOTD have already
              suspected of you. Of course, your failure to understand and
              participate in real discourse is legend. Anyway, the article is
              a-political. It merely points out the fact that people like you
              are merely monkeys trained to think the way you do and have
              never had a real independent assertion in your life.
           \_ I don't know if Limbaugh has the monopoly on that.  But it's the
              false dichotomy that amuses me.  Another reason you might not
              have a problem stating what you believe is that you're
              self-confident (that is, you know people will disagree, but you
              don't care).
              \_ So in other words you are a coward.
           \_ What is an example of such an opinion? That he likes little boys?
2005/1/21-22 [Uncategorized] UID:35853 Activity:kinda low
1/21    saw this little exchange on a cspan call-in program:
        caller: I think we are powerful, and we should use that to help other.
        host: In what way? Should we bomb them?
        caller: <pause> We have to sanction them.
        \_ Vive la libertie! Vive l'Allemand!
2005/1/21-22 [Transportation/Car, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:35854 Activity:high
1/21    Which would you choose for a low-price car (new or used):
        Honda Civic, Nissan Altima, or Toyota Corolla? My priorities
        are low price, reliability, and low maintenance costs.
        \_ I have a 1990 Civic Si.  I bought a Mazda Protege5 about a year
           ago.  Civic is definitely better architected, but Mazda is
           better built.  It's much easier to get "deals" from Mazda
           dealer than from Honda dealer, and rebates are much better, too,
           for non-Honda.  It's a close call.  Try different cars and NEVER
           be hasty.
        \_ Honda Civic. For about the same price maybe even Acura RSX
           (souped up Civic).
           \_ RSX is considerably more.  But I'd second the Civic notion,
              although I'd probably check out the Mazda 3:  It's got a
              fair bit more Zoom Zoom.
              \_ RSX is $20-23K. Civic is $13-21K. Can be the same price
                 (or close) unless you want a stripped down Civic. Mazda 3
                 seems good. My brother's gf had one for a few months
                 before getting a truck instead. OP didn't ask about it.
        \_ I have a Civic Hybrid and a 50cc scooter. I love the environment.
        \_ I've owned to Corollas ('96, '02) and they are great. I've
           never had any problems with either one. The '02 is actually
           quite large and still gets very good gas mileage. The routine
           maintenance recommended by Toyota is quite cheap. My State
           Farm insurance dude told me that the rates for the Corolla
           are lower than for a Civic by $20-$50/six months.
           If your are looking for something a bit sportier than a
           Corolla and you don't want to go the C1V1C TYP3 R1C3R
           route, you could take a look at the Mazda 3 or a Impreza
           2.5RS (non-WRX version, still get a very nice AWD system
           for just a bit more money).

i/21    Another related article, especially for the "Useful Idiot" lefty
        on the MOTD who regurgitates everything that Mike Moore says:
        \_ "Let's start with a test: Do you have any opinions that you
           would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your
           peers?  If the answer is no, you might want to stop and
           think about that. If everything you believe is something
           you're supposed to believe, could that possibly be a
           coincidence? Odds are it isn't. Odds are you just think whatever
           you're told."
           He definitely has the Limbaugh trick of starting with a ridiculous
           assertion down.  -tom
           \_ So, why would this be a ridiculous assertion? Do you actually
              believe whatever you are taught to believe? If so, then you
              really do have a small mind, which many on the MOTD have already
              suspected of you. Of course, your failure to understand and
              participate in real discourse is legend. Anyway, the article is
              a-political. It merely points out the fact that people like you
              are merely monkeys trained to think the way you do and have
              never had a real independent assertion in your life.
              \_ bad troll, no cookie.  -tom
           \_ I don't know if Limbaugh has the monopoly on that.  But it's the
              false dichotomy that amuses me.  Another reason you might not
              have a problem stating what you believe is that you're
              self-confident (that is, you know people will disagree, but you
              don't care).
              \_ or you're so immersed in a culture of people who hold unusual
                 opinions, that everyone dissagrees all the time and thinks
                 this is normal.  Everyone I work with has several outlandish
                 opinions that everyone else thinks are crazy, and no one
                 cares.  Of course, in the article, he does  mention scientists,
                 but for some reason assumes that none of his readers are
              \_ So in other words you are a coward.
           \_ What is an example of such an opinion? That he likes little boys?
2005/1/21-25 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:35855 Activity:nil
1/21    Diffie is giving a lecture about the history of information
        security this wednesday from 7-8:30 PM at the Computer Hist.
        Museum in Mt. View (best part is that its free):
        \_ I _highly_ recommend going to see this guy talk.  He's one of the
           most fascinating speakers I've seen--he'll ramble for hours about
           things that may only peripherally relate to the nominal topic of
           the talks, and it's all incredibly interesting, even if you have
           no clue what he's on about from time to time.  -John
2019/04/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2005:January:21 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>