Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:December:01 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/12/1-3 [Computer/Networking] UID:35136 Activity:nil
12/1    Anyone ever heard of a VPN service provider, e.g. someone who would
        provide a well-connected endpoint for you to establish an IPsec or CIPE
        VPN connection (over whatever consumer ISP and changing IP addresses
        you have locally)? --karlcz
        \_ I don't think I understand correctly, but you actually want a
           middleman on your supposedly secure channel?
           \_ no, I want a middleman to act as a virtual ISP that I
              can tunnel to via some random podunk consumer ISP who thinks
              the Internet is supposed to be full of anonymous client
              nodes at the edges.  security over this tunnel to the
              gateway would be optional but nice. --karlcz
                \_ If you're willing to pay, consider rolling your own by
                   putting a M0n0wall ( on a
                   PCEngines WRAP 1D-2 ( and for about
                   $150 you have yourself an ace VPN endpoint at a hosting
                   provider of your choice.  M0n0 supports most ipsec
                   implementations as mobile clients.  -John
2004/12/1-2 [Computer/SW/P2P] UID:35137 Activity:low
12/1    any rec's for a free/open web-based document management/sharing
        system? thanks.
        \_ PHProjekt.  Or PHPGroupware.  There
           was a recent slashdot thread on web-based collaboration tools,
           which may have some pointers to what you want.  -John
           \_ thanks... I couldnt seem to find the slashdot thread... is
              this what you had in mind?    - rory
              On Collaborative Weblogs
              \_ Nope sorry, my mistake, it was about calendaring tools:
                 some good links, though.  -John
        \_ Mambo
           \_ Mambo seemed pretty good when I looked into it.  If you don't
              need something light and fast, my co-worker is setting up
              Plone, which is Zope-based.  I'm not involved in the project,
              so I don't know why Plone was chosen.
        \_ please let me know which one you've decided.  I tried ZOPE and
           others, never find one that I really like.     -kngharv
2004/12/1-2 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:35138 Activity:nil
11/30   I've heard that finger is a security hazard, but it would seem to me
        that any well-written finger would be at most  a DOS liability.  Why
        do many institutions of all sorts either run no finger daemon or
        block it at the firewall?
        \_ Well, one obvious reason is it can give away information that can
           be used for social engineering attacks.
           \_ Not to mention simple email/login harvesting for brute force
              attacks and spammers.  -John
           \_ So can personal webpages.
              \_ False analogy.  You control 100% of all info on your pubhtml
                 dir.  You do not have this control over your finger info
                 on all systems.
                 \- There is a discussion of "amplification" DoS attacks
                    using finger at: --danh
                 \_ But the fact that there is a page at <DEAD>csua.berkeley<DEAD>
                    .edu/~foo implies that is a valid
                    e-mail address.
                    \_ I think the parent post was referring to the fact that
                       it's your choice to create a public_html directory
                       at all.
                       \_ I see.
2004/12/1 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:35139 Activity:high
12/1    Ah.. Michael Moore looked quite Republican the other night on Leno.
        \_ care to describe the incedent?
              \_ Well, he's still pretty ugly, but at least he's
                 presentable.  The shave and the haircut are big
                 \_ Yeah, what's wrong with tailored suits?  They look good,
                    and you don't have to be a mega-rich Republican to afford
                    \_ Michael Moore is far more mega-rich than most
                       Republicans I know...
                       \_ So what you're telling us is that most of the
                          Republicans you know are poorly dressed?
                          \_ Pretty much everyone I know is poorly
                             dressed, I live in CA.
                             \_ You mean the Bay Area.  Other parts of CA
                                are not nearly as bad.  For some reason,
                                Bay Area folks think polar fleece is
                                appropriate attire at a fancy restaurant.
                                \_ For some reason, people from southern
                                   California are assholes.  This is my
                                   unbiased opinion as someone born and
                                   raised outside California who lives
                                   outside California now.  There are
                                   exceptions, but I'm sure beyond a shadow
                                   of a doubt that you're not one of them.
                                   \_ Can you give specific examples, including
                                      where you were?
                                      Perhaps you are confusing this with
                                      rich people in general?
                                \_ Perhaps in Berkeley. Certainly not in
                                   San Francisco. You sound like a provincial
                                   spoiled Orange Country brat who spent
                                   four years on campus and thinks that
                                   what he saw on Telegraph Ave represents
                                   "Northern California."
2004/12/1 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:35140 Activity:high
12/1    I think getting 72GB 10K RPM SATA drives at $160 a piece was a bad
        idea. You could have gotten much larger 7200RPM drives for that price.
        Most people would take larger quotas over slightly better performance.
        Besides, a RAID controller with a reasonable amount of write cache
        memory should have provided a decent write speed even with relatively
        slow drives. Read speed should also be fairly decent with so many
        drives and any RAID level. My $0.02
        \_ Gee, let's just kvetch about the call after it's been made.  Now,
           this comment might just possibly have been constructive if you'd
           been able to deliver it beforehand, but what purpose does it
           serve now?  Seems like you're just biting the hand that feeds you
           because you didn't get fed exactly what you wanted.  As for me,
           hey current CSUA admins:  thank you for doing anything at all
           for me.  I realize I'm entitled to nothing, and what you're doing
           for me is much better than that.  What you have done may, or may
           not have been optimum, but the call was yours to make and I don't
           think what you did was unreasonable.  Please ignore
           bozos like o.p., who decided to deliver criticism above the thanks
           we all owe you for your efforts on everyone's behalf.  --PeterM
           \_ Gee, let's just jump all over someone for giving a valid
              opinion, why don't you. I agree with OP, paying $160 US is
              too much for 72 GB disks. Maybe it is too late to do something
              about it, but that still doesn't mean the opinion isn't valid.
              I don't know what the time schedule was for getting parts, but
              you could've gotten at least twice the capacity for SATAs
              in the past two months. Granted, any improvement is better than
              no improvement, but the OP wasn't demanding anything, just
              offering advice. -williamc
              \_ You are making the assumption that we were going for capacity.
                 What we would have liked were SCSI disks.  Those are too damn
                 expensive.  However, the Raptor (which is 74GB) is a 10K RPM
                 SCSI internals w/ SATA connector disk.  This gives us very
                 good performance, without the huge cost.  Yes, we could have
                 purchased a 200GB disk, probably even for less than the 74GB
                 ones we invested in, but on a system that has 200+ simultaneous
                 logins, spindle speed and seek times becomes more important
                 than raw storage space.  In any case, the CSUA is *not* a
                 data storage facility...if you want lots of storage, buy
                 yourself a drive and put it in your own damn case.
                   --njh (one of the SAs putting in much more time running
                          the CSUA's systems than the motd complainers)
                \_ PeterM is right, the horse has left the barn.
                   The CSUA SA's have been pretty good over the years, and
                   the uptime at soda beats a lot of commerical systems.
                   AND SODA IS FREE!  Instead
                   of bagging on the SA's, make a paypal contribution.  If everybody
                   who complained on the motd sent in some money, we'd have a
                   CSUA jet named soda instead of a PC.  They've made reasonable
                   decisions in the past, and I'm sure they had one for their choice
                   of disks.  -ax
                   of bagging on the SA's, make a paypal contribution.
                   If everybody who complained on the motd sent in some
                   money, we'd have a CSUA jet named soda instead of a PC.
                   They've made reasonable decisions in the past, and I'm
                   sure they had one for their choice of disks.  -ax
                   \_ Yes, please contribute to the CSUA!  There's a
                      paypal link on the main page now.  I did.  --allum
                        \_ no dropcash progress bar?
        \_ I want my lottery-scheduling system!  CPU cycles for everyone!
           -lazy sl0da h0z3r
        \_ I am putting a box together with a bunch of 200GB SATA
           drives--any opinions on 5+ disk RAID-5 controllers that are
           happy with FreeBSD?  Also, should I be looking at CPU power
           management?  The thing should be as quiet/cool as possible.  -John
           \_ Think about this for a moment.  You're planning to stick five
              or more > 72K RPM drives in the box, and you're worried about
              the the heat/power that the CPU is going to generate/consume?
              The drives are going to suck WAY more power and generate WAY
              more heat than the CPU. -dans
              \_ Fair enough, I'm looking at an Antec P160.  Will low-rpm
                 drives make any difference?  -John
              \_ Actually, this is wrong.  Hard drives these days only pull
                 about 10W each.  Processors pull on the order of 100s
                 of Watts. --njh
        \_ I think you're an idiot.  Want to make specific objections?  At
           least sign your name.
        \_ bigger, faster, more reliable.  for a given amount of money,
           pick any 1.5
           \_ yermom can't afford me
2004/12/1 [Uncategorized] UID:35141 Activity:nil
12/1    for those of you going christmas shopping
        read my repeat post from yesterday:
2004/12/1 [Health, Recreation/Celebrity/MichaelJackson] UID:35142 Activity:moderate
12/1    Speaking of fat shambling types getting a new look, has anyone seen a
        picture of Peter Jackson lately?  Did motherfucker go on the Atkins diet
        or something?
        \_ Peter Jackson kinda looks like my boss.  (Or he did when he was
        \_ link??
           \_ He's still not skinny, but compare it to LotR era pictures:
2004/12/1-3 [Computer/HW/IO] UID:35143 Activity:nil
12/1    The MS wireless mouse and keyboard have quite a large range, does
        anyone know if it has any security feature at all? What if some
        nutcase decides to take the keyboard up my drive way and do
        win-r, cmd, format c:?
        \_ This is why you do not login as 'Administrator' unless you
           have to.
        \_ Aren't the mouse and keyboard tied to the specific receiver?
           Otherwise no one could use more than one set in an office.
           \_ You mean if my keyboard/mouse/receiver broke, I cannot just
              get a replacement? Anyone know what the button on the receiver
              \_ Does Microsoft sell the keyboard/mouse/receiver separately?
                 How would you buy a replacement?
           \_ They generally use static identifiers.  Like a lot of bluetooth
              devices that have '1234' or '1111' hardcoded as peering code.
              Have a look at Max's Auditor cd at
              for some interesting wireless analysis tools.  -John
        \_ Anyone know if they make one that's like the Elite wireless but
           wired? I like the Elite's key layout and wheels, but I don't like
        \_ I think you should worry about the other side - tapping keystrokes
           from your keyboard and stealing your bank passwords.
2004/12/1-3 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/SW/Apps] UID:35144 Activity:nil
12/1    I have Acrobat Reader 5.0.1 on NT and 5.0.5 on XP.  In the Preferences
        dialog, I can go through different categories freely except "Web Buy".
        When I try to go to "Web Buy" for the first time since I bring up
        the Preferences dialog, Acrobat Reader locks up for up to a minute
        before it works again.  After than, I can leave "Web Buy" and go to it
        again freely.  Has anyone else seen this problem?  If I close the
        Preferences dialog and bring it up again, the same problem happens
        again.  I've already de-selected "Enable Web Buy" but it didn't help.
        \_ I have seen similar behavior when it tries to update itself but
           can't reach whatever Adobe cave it's trying to get to.  Consider
           sniffing traffic to see what it's sending.  -John
2004/12/1 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:35145 Activity:nil
12/1    Very interesting interview with Chalmers Johnson, author of
        "The Sorrows of Empire."
2004/12/1 [Computer/HW/CPU, Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:35146 Activity:high
12/1    open source sadness, SUN being destroyed by linux..
        \_ More like Sun stupidity by refusing to either
           A) Make Solaris x86 free until it was too late.
           B) Give up on the stupid "java thin client" crap
           C) Open Source Solaris and let people actually write
              drivers for 3rd party peripherals.
           D) Standardize on a PC architecture instead of dragging
              on forever with a dying USPARC platform.
           \_ Re: C), Why does it need to be open source for people to write
              drivers for 3rd party peripherals?  XP is not open source, but
              people can write drivers.
              \_ Obviously you don't understand software/hardware economics.
                 Unless your OS has a large entrenched user base (such as
                 Windows) nobody is going to spend money on writing
                 drivers for it. It's economically unsound, especially
                 if you have to buy the tools. Solaris didn't even come
                 with a free cc compiler (SunOS did). As for writing
                 drivers for XP, it costs in the neighborhood of $10,000
                 to develop a driver for it (I know, I've been involved
                 in one). Solaris needs to be open sourced so that OSS
                 people can port Linux drivers to it (which has been done
                 before) or write drivers from the ground up, especially
                 on an X86 platform. Apple's OS X would have faced the same
                 problem if it had jumped onto the X86 platform.
        \_ I am glad. I was a big, big Sun customer who kept telling my
           reps that we were going to move to Linux mostly because of cost
           since we actually prefer Solaris. Most of us don't care
           about the OS price (cheap) or whether it is open source.
           It's the Intel hardware that was much cheaper and drove the
           decision. My reps had the attitude that we were small potatoes
           since we didn't buy lots of E10Ks and that it was fine for
           client-side to be Linux as long as they could sell their
           expensive servers. Now they are paying the price for not
           listening to their customers...
           \_ Not just that--I've encountered some pretty serious
              incompetence here.  They had the chance to take a really huge
              services contract away from a major outsourcer--they threw a
              half-wit project manager and two untrained sysadmins without
              work permits at it, because "hey, we're Sun, nobody would ever
              refuse us".  -John
              \_ Sun's proposal to replace uclink was pathetic; the people
                 who came to do the presentation had no idea what was in
                 it, and no idea of the Berkeley environment.  -tom
        \_ it's like the mama spider whose babies eat her once their born
           \_ As long as someone eventually beats Micro$oft, I don't care.
            \_ and linux is going to do that?? hahahaah
        \_ Incidentally, why do people rave about Ed Zander?  What exactly
           did he accomplish at Sun?
        \_ Four sysadmins administer a 400 server webfarm, along with
           a database server, email server, all the corporate servers
           and all the networking equipment. We can do this because
           we run all Sun hardware and software. Tell me a place that
           runs linux and does this. -Sun fan
           \_ Any place that runs Linux on an AS400, dorkus. It's called IBM,
              they are going Linux, it's well supported, and runs like a
           \_ You know, administering 100 (likely similarly configured)
              machines is not really _that_ hard for any competent sysadmin as
              long as they run some form of *nix.
        \_ Sun is out to destroy itself.  Sun Service's new trick is to come
           in, declare all the SA's overpaid, and replace them with Sun Service
           H1-B's making $20/hr.  -ax
        \_ It is more like.. if they get destroyed, it would be because of
           their own stupidity. They should have seen the Linux/x86 threat
           coming a long time ago. Granted, they're ARE embrassing Linux and
           x86 now and have plans to open source Solaris. So, it's possible
           they're not a toast yet. Though, their sales people STILL don't
           understand that the time when they could have made thousands and
           thousands of profit per machine sold are over. The other day I was
           looking at their education promotions page, and the best deal for
           "low-end" server is a dual USIIIi rack box that costs $7000.  Say
           what? I can get a Dell twice as fast with storage 5 times the sun
           for half the price. If that's the best they can offer, I feel really
           really sorry for them.
2004/12/1-3 [Academia/UCLA] UID:35147 Activity:moderate
12/1    Here's the complete list of top 200 universities in the world:
        \_ Rankings are lame.  All I want to say is, UCLA _better not_ be
           #26 overall.  That would make me very sad. -- ilyas
           \_ UCLA is a world-class institution in many fields. What's
              your gripe?
              \_ The CS department?  Well, that and the 'soul of UCLA.'
                   -- ilyas
                 \_ What is your gripe with the department? Poor quality
                    research being done?
                    \_ There is some decent research that comes out of UCLA
                       CS ... sometimes, but I think the dept. is sick.
                       I am just comparing to how I remember the Cal CS
                       dept. was.  -- ilyas
                       dept. was.  If you honestly care, send me an
                       email, and I ll ramble more. -- ilyas
        \_ We're #2:,,2-1343642,00.html
        \_ I'm assuming you just got that email from Newton, too?
           \_ Yup.  When I last mentioned the ranking on the motd, I couldn't
              locate the complete list.
        \_ let's see how many people think this is a bogus ranking.
           \_ It depends on how you look at it. It is almost certainly bogus
              for the purposes of choosing a school for studying a particular
              degree in a particular career..
              \_ You are obviously not a Korean (or Chinese) mother.
                 \_ And obviously never served.
                    \_ BUD DAY didn't send HIS kids to Berkeley!
              \_ What if you don't have definite plans for a degree or a
                 career when you're choosing the college to attend?
                 career when you're choosing the college to attend?  Then
                 wouldn't picking the highest ranked (whatever your favorite
                 list may be) college be a reasonable strategy?
                 \_ No way.  Depending on your personality type, your chances
                    of figuring out what you want to do and succeeding at it
                    might be much higher at a small liberal arts college or
                    might be much higher at a huge state school.  There are
                    both of this type of school that are similarly ranked
                    in most rankings, and I think this is a very important
                    choice to make, regardless of what level of ranking
                    school you've gotten into.  For me, a huge state school
                    was exactly the right place to be, but I've definitely
                    seen people get lost in the system at Cal who would probably
                    have done a lot better at some little liberal arts school
                    where they're not just a number.
                 \_ Then at least see the rankings based on your career
                    choice. For example, they have Harvard listed at the
                    top but that doesn't imply that Harvard is the best
                    engineering or say CS school. Just like Caltech and
                    MIT (listed no 4 and 3 respectively) are not the best
                    schools for many social sciences or humanities.
                    \_ Anyone who hasn't settled on a degree yet is not
                       likely to have settled on a career, and in any case I
                       stipulated "... don't have definite plans for a degree
                       or a career...".
                \_ The criteria used for those rankings, makes those
                   rankings even less relevant to undergraduate education.
                   On the other hand, if you're considering going to grad
                   school, then at that point you certainly already know
                   what to study.
                   \_ Agreed.  I implicitely limited the choice to undergrad
                      when I said "choosing the college [vs. grad school] to
2004/12/1 [Reference/Military] UID:35148 Activity:very high
12/1    Yay!,1282,65885,00.html
        As early as March or April, 18 units of the Talon -- a model armed
        with automatic weapons -- are scheduled to report for duty in Iraq.
        ... Four cameras and a pair of night-vision binoculars allow the robot
        to operate at all times of the day. It has a range of about a
        half-mile in urban areas, more in the open desert. And with the
        ability to carry four 66-mm rockets or six 40-mm grenades, as well as
        an M240 or M249 machine gun, the robots can take on additional duties
        fast, said director John Pike.
        \_ The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield
           or at sea.  They will be fought in space, or possibly on top
           of a very tall mountain.  In either case, most of the actual
           fighting will be done by small robots.  And as you go forth
           today remember always your duty is clear:  To build and maintain
           those robots.  Thank you.
        \_ it has begun.  The robots are going to take over the world.
           \_ Don't be silly. The dolphins will do that first.
              \_ Dolphins have been secretly stealing our H07 CH1X in beach
                 waters with their long hard beaks.
           \_ ob: I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.
        \_ future wars will be robot vs. robot.
           Smart bullets will try to reduce collateral damage.
           Smart gun systems will try to reduce collateral damage.
           Hackers will be the warriors of the future.
           Video Games are a conspiracy to create the new breed of warriors.
           The internet will be used to help fight wars.
           \_ The Internet was *DESIGNED* to help fight wars
              \_ No silly, Al Gore invented it to start the dot-com economy.
                \_ eat shit
                   \_ Sorry, I don't live in the dorms anymore.
           \_ OOOOHHHHH AAAAUHHHHhhhhhhhhhh...*geek splooge*
        \_ Monkey hate robot
2004/12/1-3 [Uncategorized] UID:35149 Activity:nil
12/1    A while back, some folks expressed opinions regarding prolog
        implementations. I didn't find them grepping the motd archive.
        I'm looking to embed some logic system into a larger product,
        any recommendations?                            -- Marco
        \_ I like yap and xsb.  -- ilyas
2004/12/1 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:35150 Activity:high
12/1    "Republican Alabama lawmaker proposes banning gay books from
         public libraries" --
        \_ Will that include the Bible?  -tom
           \_ I'm sure the ACLU will like that.
        \_ Gay man should be lined up and shot. -gay hater
        \_ Gay men should be lined up and shot. -gay hater
           \_ Does it arouse you to think about a bunch of gay men all lined
           \_ There is only one gay man?  Damn he gets around a lot
2004/12/1 [Uncategorized] UID:35151 Activity:nil
12/1    <DEAD><DEAD>
2004/12/1-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:35152 Activity:high
12/1    Required reading for anyone that thinks we are winning the war on
        terror.  And before any of you jerk your knees, note the .mil address.
        "Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic
        \_ One can infer that you are trying to say that we are not winning
           the war on terror based on this single report. If that presumption
           is correct then you are merely fact-finding for your own case
           instead of attempting to really understand the situation at hand.
           This paper is merely one of thousands of proposals that go in
           front of government bodies and the opinions stated in it are
           policy strategies that are suggested. They may or may not
           be correct. Merely drawing up one study group paper and saying
           that it proves your point that we are not winning the war
           against terror is fallacious at best. Politics, unlike
           computer science, does not have one definitive answer. It is
           a complex interplay of socio-economic dynamics. One should
           never presume to know definitively whether one is "winning"
           or "losing" something based on one opinion or one report.
           Take, for example, the Cold War. There are pundits who claim
           that we won the cold war and there are those who claim that
           we did not but instead the Soviets merely imploded due to their
           own internal conflicts. You can argue either way based on which
           papers you select and which facts you wish to draw up. That
           doesn't mean you are more correct than any other pundit. It merely
           means you found what you are looking for in a myriad of facts.
           Anyway, the document is some 100+ pages. If you actually did an
           in depth study of the paper I doubt that you would find that
           it conclusive can tell you whether the war on terror is won or
           lost. It is also beyond the scope of the motd and probably
           the majority of the CSUA members to determine this on their
           own without a true context. It would be as silly as trying to
           give a CS major a case book and tell him/her to defend
           Scott Peterson in trial. -williamc
           \_ you win the award for longest post that doesn't say anything.
              \_ pshah!  Maybe second place.  read this:
           \_ Easy with the axe-grinder there, dude. Did you read what
             the PP wrote? It is clear
             s/he thinks we are not winning the "war
             on terror", but he never claims that he came
             to this conclusion because of this one report. -nop
        \_ And who exactly would benefit from a report saying we're not
           winning the war on terror?
                \_ anyone in the "reality based community"
           \_ Are you really this mired in partisan stupidity?  It would be
              of benefit to anyone that wants to see terrorism stamped out
              of existance.  If our tactics aren't working then we need to
              change them, but this sort of presumes that the policy makers
              REALIZE they're not working.  It also helps to understand WHY
              they're failing or why they're not working as well as they're
              supposed to. I hope I've missed your point(and I'm sorry if I
              did), but if not, then I find myself wondering how someone as
              stupid as yourself even manages to dress himself in the
              morning....this all ought to be kind of self evident.
              \_ You're a moron if you think terrorism can be "stamped out
                 of existence." So who dresses *you* in the morning?
                 \_ I didn't say it could be.  -4hp for poor reading
                    \_ And I never said anything partisan. -9hp for poor
                       reading comprehension for you, dumbass
                       \_ I think I already covered this.  Feeling a little
                          defensive, are we?  If you'd actually read what I
                          said instead of hysterically knee-jerking, you'd have
                          realized that.
                          \_ Okay, let me spell it out for you, dumbfuck.
                             A sales consultant for a network security services
                             company gives you a report telling you that your
                             network isn't secure. Who exactly would benefit
                             from such a report? How is this knee-jerk? Because
                             I'm not as gullible as you are? Idiot.
                             \_ Uhm, so you're saying that you just assume
                                he's obviously biased and is therefore full of
                                shit?  So, on that basis, you do no
                                due-diligence, but sit back and tell yourself
                                how clever and world-wise you are for avoiding
                                *that* pitfall?  That's just stupid.
                                \_ No. No.
                 \_ I bet you also scoffed at Kerry's "nuisance" comment..
              \_ His thinking may be partisan, but he's not necessarily
                 stupid.  A classic political tactic for poo-pooing opposition
                 to your plans is to point to threats ("we have always been
                 at war with Eurasia!")  I agree with you, objectively
                 speaking it is best to pragmatically go about analyzing
                 your mistakes and weaknesses so you can do a better job, but
                 let's face it, recent US politics has, more than at any time
                 I can recall, relied on "terrorism" as a threat to grant a
                 blank check for "the government" to commit questionable
                 actions.  It's easy to take a cynical view.  -John
                 \_ Hmm.  I think it's much less depressing to just assume that
                    the guy is a partisan moron.
                    \_ And that would be the incorrect assumption. FYI- the
                       election ended a month ago.
                       \_ FYI, partisanism exists and causes issue with or
                          without an election going on.
        \_ how does this report say we are not winning the war on terror?
           \_ You really should just read it.  Essentially it says we are
              making a collosal "strategic mistake."
        \_ Thank you for pointing me to this report. I have been saying
           more or less these exact things for at least a year now and
           had decided that the US was hopelessly going to screw things up,
           at least for the next four years. At least somebody in
           government is starting to think about these issues in the
           right way. -ausman
2019/01/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:December:01 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>