Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:November:11 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2004/11/11 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:34823 Activity:nil 71%like:34789
11/8    I am looking for an free external RAID box.
        Am willing to build it myself, though I have not done that.
        ESDI seems the way to go.  Any pointers?
        \_ apple xserve
           \_ He said inexpensive.
        \_ How many drives do you need?  Do you need hardware RAID (yes for
           anything semi-intensive).  If this is just for personal use I'd say
           get a cheapo x86 Linux box and don't bother with SATA, as it's not
           much faster than a good IDE drive right now, and it's much easier to
           find a motherboard that supports 4-8 IDE srives than 4 SATA drives.
           If this is for business use, disregard this advice.
        \_ You aren't giving us nearly enough info.  How much storage space do
           you need, for what purpose, what is your budget and what is your
           skill level?
           \_ Oh, and also, how will it be connected to the other computer(s)?
              Will it be simple FireWire or USB2, or do you want a little SAN
              and in that case do you need NFS, CIFS, or what? -!pp
2004/11/11 [Uncategorized] UID:34824 Activity:nil
11/11   Would the idiots running motd merge/restore scripts please at least
        make sure they are working correctly?
2004/11/11-12 [Computer/SW/Languages, Computer/SW/Mail] UID:34825 Activity:moderate
11/11   Simple question I suppose, but this happened to me with an ISP in
        Japan. Have two email accounts set up.  First account has forwarding
        to the second account.  The 2nd account recently set up a vacation
        reply. So mail arrives in first account, is forwarded to 2nd account,
        which in turn generates vacation reply, which the first account gets,
        it forwards that email, another vacation response is generated and
        received, etc, etc.  Pandemonium ensues.  The ISP called it a
        denial-of-service attack and is threatening to cut off service.  But
        this was an honest mistake (2nd account is used by a colleague and he
        set up vacation response on his client without telling me.)  Question:
        would any other ISP (or Soda) have been able to prevent this, or at
        least stop it before it brought down their system?
        \_ a reasonable vacation reply mechanism would implement loop
           detection headers and/or duplicate message-id checks (as should
           any other auto-responder).
           \_ Not to mention keeping track of recipients.  Your first
              ISP should also have some kind of reasonable loop detection.
              Tell them both that the gaijin tech gods have spoken and that
              they should get /<l00 or we'll whip out the black ships. -John
           \- Thanks for the replies.  Should these checks have been
              implemented on server software, client software (maybe there is
              a setting for "reply once"?), or both?
              \_ basic rule of computing: never trust clients, never rely on
                 clients to do the right thing.  your isps are both stupid.
                 \_ Not even a 'trust' question--this is basic mail server
                    config 101.
                    \_ I was making a more general statement about all client/
                       server relationships, not just mail.
           \_ But isn't a vacation responses a separate piece of e-mail
              similar to when the user does a reply, instead of a re-route of
              the original?  How does loop detection help in this case?
              \_ It should not be similar; it should have a Precedence: junk
                 header, among other things.  And as noted above, the vacation
                 program should keep track of recipients.  -tom
              \_ it should notice its own message sent  back to itself and
                 not reply.  this would solve OP's problem.  you are right
                 that this might not help two vacation systems in a volley,
                 but that is caught by not sending vacation notices to the
                 same recipient within some time period, e.g. a week.
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Health/Disease/AIDS] UID:34826 Activity:high
11/11   Arafat was... Gay?
        http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=350
        \_ I think he really died of BEING OLD
        \_ this is first time you have heard this!?  You live under
           a rock?
        \_ love how they write Palestinian in quotes. "So-called 'leader'
           of 'nation' mourned by 'people'."
        \_ Hearing it from an Israeli source makes it less believable.
           \_ No, hearing it from something that sounds like the Israeli
              equivalent of the Arch-freeper makes it less believable.
              \_ I thought it read more like the New York Post.
                 \_ NYP is Nobel literature compared to this shit.  It's more
                    like the pro-muslim/pro-Israeli nutjobs at Sather Gate.
                    \_ Just for the hell of it, I went and read the NYP's
                       article from today on Arafat for comparison, and
                       you're absolutely right.  This is far kookier.
        \_ "medical experts believe the blood-soaked Muslim terror
            chief is dying from complications related to the AIDS
            virus." Any paper use this kind of language cannot be trusted.
            \_ Heh, that's why I posted it.  I thought it was funny.
2004/11/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:34827 Activity:high
11/11   link:tinyurl.com/58wlo
        Sniper in Falluja stopped 150 marines, surviving two 500 pound bombs,
        35 155mm shells, 10 shots from Abrams tanks and 30000 rounds of
        automatic rifle.  Reminds me of Full Metal Jacket and Enemies
        at the Gate.
        \_ Damn! They missed their chance to kill Kim Jung Il's panther!
        \_ I think the Marines have more ammo than they have sniper guys.
           \_ Snipers don't exactly burn through ammo, you know.  Anyway, the
              point is that 1 guy can tie up 150 guys in unfriendly territory
              \_ Sorry, badly phrased.  Related to the "not keeping anything
                 secret from the enemy" thread earlier, the US military
                 approach has always been "drop enormous amount of stuff on it
                 and if it still moves, drop more stuff on it."  Doesn't look
                 like they got the guy, but each good sniper whacked is less
                 replaceable than 30,000 rounds of ammo.  -John
        \_ That reminds me of a scene from "Platton", where one young woman
        \_ That reminds me of a scene from "Platoon", where one young woman
           hiding in a building with a rifle killed several marines before she
           was found and killed.
           \_ You mean Full Metal Jacket.
              \_ No I've never seen that.
                 \_ ya, I agree w/ pp. I've never seen Platoon, but know
                    theres a scene like that in FMJ.
                    \_ Ok, has anyone SEEN Platoon?
                        \_ Yeah there's one at yermom's house right now.
                 \_ You mean FMJ.
        \_ all it takes for the terrorist to win is to snipe one marine
           a day in all major cities. Snipe one, blend into population,
           repeat the next day. Such is urban warfare.
           \_ If you won't have sex with me, it will mean that the
              terrorists have won.
           \_ I don't think that would produce a 'win' although it will
              kill some Marines. May as well snipe one citizen a day
              in Washington, D.C. Oh, that's been done.
        \_ I was watching documentary the other day, and it says
           that during the war of 1814, the British commander
           was killed by a US sniper, which saved the day for the
           US.
           \_ The War of 1814?  Oooh...
              \_ I think it's 1812.
           \_ I think the same thing happened in the Canadian-American War.
              \_ no, it was a brit.  by the time he was shot and killed
                 he already led his british army to burn US capital down.
                 madison, who was kind of a nerd, was forced to run away.
                 \_ Chicom troll has taken history lesson!
                    \_ I thought bad brits only burned china capital
                       down.  didn't know they burnt US capital down
                       too. hahaha!   US made Britain its maid today
                       while dxp kicked brits out of HK and made Iron
                       Lady cry "He's so cold hearted!"  Is that
                       good revenge?   - chicom toad
                       \_ Are you Hong-Kongese?  Do you understand the effect
                          ...... oh never mind.
2004/11/11-12 [Computer/HW/Display, Consumer/TV] UID:34828 Activity:nil
11/11   I'm looking for a video card with a tv-out plug to display to
        a regular television in addition to a monitor.  I don't need
        any other fancy video card features and I would like something
        reliable and not too expensive.  Google and various review stuff
        seem to focus on high-end video cards and other features.  Can
        anyone suggest a simple, reliable video card w/ tv-out?  Thanks.
        \_ I have a Geforce 4600, works a charm.  I think you can get them
           for a pretty reasonable price.  If you're looking for a whole
           system to serve signal to a TV, have a look at <DEAD>www.mini-itx.com;<DEAD>
           they have really inexpensive ready-built small, quiet systems
           with good quality gfx cards for this sort of thing.  Don't forget
           that if you're converting to SCART, you don't get sound on your
           TV.  -John
2004/11/11-12 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:34829 Activity:high
11/11   Okay, my bro was from UW-Madison, and he's bringing his family
        to visit our uncle in LA end of the year.  We are thinking of
        going to see Cal vs Badger in the Rosebowl since this would
        probably be once in a lifetime.  Anyone has any experience as
        to how best to get tickets and how much they would cost?
        \_ End zone tickets are selling for $250/each on EBay right now.
           I doubt they are going to get any cheaper. If you want good
           seats, expect to pay up to $750 each.
           \_ I am a little worried about fraud.  Is there a
              reputable source for getting tickets?
              \_ <DEAD>rickstickets.com<DEAD> has worked for me. rick is a cool guy.
        \_ Hope you two still get along afterwards.
        \_ Easy tiger, we've still got 3 games left. A lot can happen.
           \_ Not to mention getting picked for a bowl that isn't the Rose
              is a slim possibility even if we win out. How are people
              able to buy tickets for games that aren't decided yet? Does
              it mean they get stuck with Purdue-Texas (e.g.) in the Rose if
              that's how it turns out?
              \_ I'm sure someone will buy them off you later
                 \_ Maybe not for what you paid for them.
           \_ I don't see Cal or Wisconsin losing more than 1 of
              their conference games left.  Maybe USC will lose
              a game and bump Cal out of the Rosebowl, or Wisconsin
              may have some chance to play in the National
              Championship game if both Auburn and Oklahoma lose
              one of their remaining games.  But you are right,
              I do plan to wait for things to clear up, but no
              harm asking about it now.   - op
        \_ Limited tickets available to general public on 12/7 @ 8am. Call
           Ticketmaster (info @ http://tournamentofroses.com)
2004/11/11-12 [Computer/SW/Compilers] UID:34830 Activity:nil
11/11   On a *nix machine with both cc and gcc, is there a generic way to find
        out which include directories they use?  (I think cc uses .h files in
        /usr/include and gcc uses those somewhere else.)  Thanks.
2004/11/11-12 [Industry/Startup] UID:34831 Activity:nil
11/11   I posted several days ago about Soda dropping me about an hour of
        inactivity while using TTSSH.  I found that PuTTY actually has
        "sending null packet to keep session alive" option builtin.  This
        option works for me.  BTW, John's original suggestion of
        'spinner' didn't quite work.  It keeps randomly dieing due to
        "unable to open TTY for writing."
        \_ Weird, I've never gotten that.  Spinner is a bit of a PITA as it
           doesn't get along with most scrollbars.  If I can, I usually do
           the X forwarding/xclock thing, it leaves your tty alone.  -John
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:34832 Activity:nil
11/11   Japan today.  The questions and answers are pretty boring, but the
        pictures are awesome.
        http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=popvox&id=528
        \_ I don't get it, which part about the pic makes it 'awesome'?
           \_ Sorry, I think Japanese nuts are funny.
              \_ Well, I think your Japanese schoolgirl fetish is funny,
                 so I guess it's a good day for humor.
2004/11/11-12 [Science/Disaster] UID:34833 Activity:nil
11/11   How come people in big crowded cities in Japan don't live in high-rise
        buildings like those in Hong Kong?  First I thought it's because of
        earthquakes, but then they already know how to build high-rise hotels
        and office buildings in those cities.
        \_ 1) Earthquakes.  Sure, Japanese engineers can build some amazingly
           earthquake-resistant buildings, but those kinds of buildings are
           terribly expensive to build, so why use them for housing when you
           can charge an arm and a leg for them as hotels?  2) There's actually
           more room in Japan per capita than there is in Hong Kong.
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Health/Women] UID:34834 Activity:high
11/11   Pharmacists in Red States refuse to give out contraceptive
        pills because of religion and/or personal belief:
        http://tinyurl.com/4tamp
        \_ Sounds like quite the opportunity for competition to thrive.
        \_ Man, just wait until you get a Jehova's Witness in charge of a
           hospital!
            \_ how about a Christian Science Emergency Room? HAHAHA
               \_ don't insult Christian Science, they really work. Here is
                  a proof-- they can make infertile women have babies
                  again: http://tinyurl.com/5wfnf
        \_ That's unbelievable. Your personal views have absolutely no
           place in your professional practice. I can't believe that
           people like that still exist in this country.
           \_ apparently 53% of the Americans don't agree with you.
           \_ Are you pro-choice or pro-life?
                \_ I am pro-choice, but that's irrelevant. A customer
                   should be free to have ANY prescription filled,
                   no matter what it is. It's not the pharmacist's job
                   to decide if it's appropriate, it's the doctor's.
                   \_ Is it irrelevant?  Assisted suicide is legal in Oregon.
                      Would you be as unsympathetic to a health worker or
                      pharmacist in Oregon who refuses to participate in an
                      assisted suicide case?
                      \_ Congratulations, you just compared birth control pills
                         to suicide!  Stay tuned for the moral equation of
                         gay marriage with slavery and the halocaust!
                         \_ Yep.  I assume the pharmacist in the original
                            story believes that birth control == murder.  Just
                            as some Oregon health care provider might belive
                            assisted suicide == murder.  Legality has very
                            little to do with morality, which is why I asked
                            if the poster was pro-choice or pro-life.  We
                            are all relatively comfortable with birth control
                            being morally neutral, and that allows the prof.
                            practice poster to take such a strong stand.  I
                            would guess that we can mostly accept that it
                            would be more legitimate to find assisted suicide
                            not morally neutral, which is why I asked the
                            poster if he would still be as comfortable with
                            his uncompromising stance.  If he is just as
                            uncompromising, great, though one might mention that
                            following orders is not a sufficient excuse in many
                            situations.  If he is more flexible
                            with refusing to help with legal assisted suicide,
                            then that raises the pro-life/pro-choice question,
                            since the original pharmacist presumably believe
                            that birth control == murder.  In any case, it's
                            easy to condemn someone, but it's probably not
                            terribly production.  It's much more useful to
                            try to understand someone's behavior.
            \_ Birth control pills are not, contrary to common belief,
               aborticants (i think that's the word).  They act by
               preventing ovulation.  No egg ever gets fertalized.
               \_  Contrary to common  belief? Jesus fucking christ, are
                   people really that ignorant?
                   \_ What do you think...?  -John
                        \_ ja sind sie
                \_ Every time something is done to prevent our Christian
                   hordes from filling every nook and cranny of the planet
                   a crime is committed.  And every sperm is sacred.
                \_ I really don't think that that's common belief.
                \_ "abortifacients".
        \_ I don't quite get this, I thought anti-birth control was a
           Catholic thing, not a prodestant thing.
           \_ the supposedly better educated Northern Blue State
              Elitists' ability to spell amazes and embarrases me -liberal
              \_ We're better at it, at least.  I hope.
2004/11/11-12 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:34835 Activity:nil
11/11   NOW THEY GOT ADZ WHICH MOVE AROUND UR SKREEN SO U GOT A
        HARDUR TIME CLOS1NG THE ADS,
        \_ Philbiff!
        \_ "now" implies they didn't before. Use Mozilla/FF and disallow
           scripts to move windows.
2004/11/11-12 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:34836 Activity:nil
11/11   "Microsoft says Firefox not a threat to IE" Hilarious.
        http://csua.org/u/9wy
        \_ firewhat?.. Clint Eastwood movie?
        \_ why is this funny? History has proven over and over again
           that M$ copies its competitors, then takes over the market
           either via improvements, or via superior marketting, or
           via its superior clout.
           \_ Did you read the article?  The article is funny, the
              headline isn't.
           \_ It's via breaking the antitrust law.
              \_ And copywright laws.
                \_ and getting away with it.
                        \_ and thennn?
                         \_ step 3, PROFIT!!!
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan, Reference/History/WW2/Japan] UID:34837 Activity:high 71%like:34865
11/11   Author of Rape of Nanking committed suicide:
        http://tinyurl.com/5cs2b
        \_ From the article: "Many soldiers went beyond rape to disembowel
           women, slice off their breasts, nail them alive to walls. Fathers
           were forced to rape their daughters and sons their mothers as other
           family members watched."
           \_ Where does that info come from I wonder?
              \_ The article said she interviewed survivors in China.
                 \_ Considering the well-documented atrocities committed
                    by the biological warefare Unit 731, these things
                    are all very plausible.
                    \_ So here's what I don't undestand.  How did Japan go
                       from this level of barbarism to being some of the most
                       peaceful people in the world in one generation?
                       \_ America.
                       \_ Perception of external threats from western
                          imperialist nations leading to desire to have
                          its own colonial empire leading to invasion
                          of korea, manchuria.  Ideology of superiority
                          of Japanese and society turning militaristic
                          leading to despise and dehumanization of
                          other asian people.  Whether Japan is peaceful
                          or not is still to be seen.  It can only be
                          judged when the nation is under duress.  US
                          did have a positive influence on Japan since
                          WWII.
                    \_ Is Japan denying what Unit 731 did too?
                    \_ I just searched for Unit 731 on google, and boy, I got
                       pretty angry. I guess what the US did to the Iraqi
                       prisoners seems like Child's play in comparison.
                       Now tell me, is Japan denying Unit 731?
                       \_ the right wingers certainly are denying it,
                          or the very least, not wanting to teach it
                          in school or discouraging people to write
                          about it.
                       \_ It's pretty horrid.  Look for the William Kristol
                          interview with a veteran of that unit.
                          The guy's statements are stomach-turning.  -John
                       \_ There were also interviews of Japanese soldiers
                          who witnessed or participated in the Rape of
                          Nanking.  Some felt a lot of guilt, while others
                          tried to explain it.
        \_ And how have they ruled out some pissed off Japanese right wing
           nut killed her?
           \_ why do you hate right wing Japanese people?
                \_ It's that whole SoCal supermarket--samurai sword thing.
                   Read up on Yukio Mishima, you may be amused. -John
           \_ The US govt is not interested in embarrassing its Japanese ally
              with whatever war crimes it committed in China.  I don't think it
              has ever been interested.
              \_ Are you chinese?  Do you understand the effects opium trade
                 had on china?
              \_ Well, "authorities" said it was suicide.  What "authorities"?
                 Local cops, I assume.  How difficult is it for leet Japanese
                 ninja types to fake a suicide that will fool the local
                 constabulary?
          \_ An alternative theory is that the research on the Bataan
             Death March which the http://sfgate.com article said she was doing in
             Kentucky days before she was foudn dead traumatized her enough to
             commit suicide. Like maybe she opened up old wounds of some
             80-year-old WWII vet and felt guilty about it...
             \_ What's he gonna do, beat her to death with a walker?
                \_ you're a craven asshole.
                   \_ Not really, I thought pp was making nonsense hypotheses.
                      Wasn't meant like that.
                      \_ I agree, but then it's well known the motd is full
                         of psycopath.
                         \_ And FOB idiots.
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34838 Activity:high
11/11   http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/10/01247/557
        Excellent discussion of the reality of Bin Laden and where we're headed.
        \_ Thank you.  I go to dailykos for all my unbiased political
           analysis.
        \_ What does "dailykos" mean, any how?  Daily Kooks on S***?
           \_ I never read the site; got the link off a KDE developer's blog.
              It doesn't seem biased actually... more about the futility of
              waging a public opinion war with guns and bombs. -op
                \_ dailykos doesn't seem biased? WOW!
           \_ The guy who started it is nicknamed "kos," pronounced with a
              long "o."  Hence "dailykos."  It is a left-wing echo chamber,
              similar to Freerepublic but just a hair less loony and obviously
              on the other side of the political spectrum.  Occasionally they
              have some good top level links.
                \_ dailykos has some good stuff sometimes.  most of the
                   freerepublic people have net personas of dangerous
                   psychopaths.
                   \_ Do you lean conservative or liberal?
                        \_ lib.  i read and have read the free republic
                           urls, a lot of them have "let's go shoot
                           some libs!" tangents.  dailykos does not.
                           \_ What?!?  The right is NEVER violent!!
              \_ Kos himself is not looney at all, in fact he is pretty
                 much a mainstream Democrat. He is about as "looney" as
                 say, John Kerry. Some of his posters are nuts though.
                 \_ The posters are mostly what I was referring to.  I like
                    kos, but his site has been almost completely taken over
                    by the fruit loops.  He doesn't even write most of the
                    entries any more.
        \_ Read "Guerilla Warfare" by Che Guavara. He describes fighting
           a superior force using exactly those tactics.
2004/11/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:34839 Activity:moderate
11/11   As far as I know, a sniper's bullet is bigger than 1 cm, so it should
        be visible with, say, 40 GHz radar.  So it should be possible to have
        a radar scanner that tracks the bullet back and tells the exact location
        of the sniper, at least in theory.  This doesn't sound all that hard
        to me.  Why the hell don't we have such technology deployed in Iraq?
        is there a technical problem I'm missing here?
        \_ An interesting discussion about this:
           http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/archive/index.php/t-196.html
        \_ Sniper/Bullet Track radar has been around for awhile.  I'd guess
           it's not deployed in Fallujah for several reasons, but mainly the
           sensitivity/complexity of the equipment isn't very compatible with
           the conditions of a mobile assualt (too time consuming to set up,
           to much likelihood of rough handling).  Also, the urban environment
           is pretty claustrophobic and my not be conducive to effective radar
           system deployment.
           \_ Odd.  I'd assume that it is precisely in urban areas where
              snipers are the most dangerous.  It's probably relatively
              easy to hunt down a sniper in a wide open space.
              \_ Easy?  That really depends on teh terrain.  There are many
                 accounts of snipers doing terrible damage in open terrian
                 where there's no cover, etc.  Note: USEFUL != USABLE.
        \_ I saw something similar on Tactical to Practical on the
           History Channel two years ago. They already have a working
           implementation that uses the high speed camera to capture
           bullet traces, in real time. Why it's not deployed in
           Iraq, my guess is probably due to mass production/
           copy-right/law issues than the technical reason.
           \_ There are a number of systems, at least one of which uses
              multiple units to triangulate the shot's origin.  The problem
              with every single one of these is that they're (a) unwieldy,
              (b) fragile, and (c) require you to be looking at least in the
              general direction of where the bullet is coming from--not always
              practical in a combat situation.  -John
              \_ tell us about zhe Elite Churman Sniperscutze, John
                 \_ Difficult, yermom's playing with it.
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:34840 Activity:high
11/11   What are the conservative and liberal stands/views on immigration?
        \_ If you live in California within the past 10 years you should
           know. If you are a newcomer then basically do a search for prop
           187 on google. It's the reason why we're a democratic state instead
           of being centrist conservatists like we were in the past.
           \_ prop 187 sounds like a 'conservative' proposition
              \_ Yeah.  Conservatives voted for it and liberal judges
                 overturned it.
        \_ liberals tend to be in support of policies favorable to immigration.
           conservatives tend to be against.
           unless you're george bush trying to do anything to get re-elected and
           thus attempting to appeal to the immigrant vote.
           \_ Actually, the answer is much more complex than this. Liberals
              don't support policies favorable to immigration unilaterally.
              The Union faction of the left is steadfastly against immigration,
              especially the H1B type. Conservatives, especially those in the
              central valley and up north where the vinyards are in Ca tend
              to favor lax immigration enforcement until they need it to
              drive the workers off after planting season. Conservatives also
              like H1B visas. At the same time, I'm pretty sure right wing
              nuts will want to kick out the H1B visas after they've slave
              labored them long enough, and organized labor wants to organize
              them after they get into the country so they can have another
              union.
                \_ I am curious as to what your classic liberals "let 'em in,
                   give 'em driver's licenses" and your classic conservatives
                   "build a fence, shoot on sight" think about the fact that
                   without tons of illegal immigrants, CA's agricultural and
                   hospitality industries would collapse.  -ohn
                   hospitality industries would collapse.  -John
                   \_ You have absolutely zero, (0, nada, nothing) proof that
                      either will collapse if all the latino illigal immigrants
                      were to be deported. There are probably enough legal
                      latino immigrants and actual latino americans born here
                      to easily fill those posts.
                      \_ This is so racist. I guess it's ok to stereotype all
                         Latino's as only capable of holding a low-level job.
                   \_ This is the 'A day without a Mexican' view.  I am sort of
                      of two minds about illegal immigration.  On the one hand,
                      I favor much looser standards for letting people in, on
                      the other hand, I really dislike illegal immigration on
                      principle.  An economy is an organic thing.  Had there
                      been far fewer mexicans coming illegally, the CA
                      economy would have
                      developed in a different way, so it's a little misleading
                      to give hypothethical situations where all mexicans
                      suddenly disappear. -- ilyas
                      \_ I basically agree with ilyas.  I think we ought
                         to put the cap on illegal immigration, but we
                         also need to rework the INS so the people we want
                         in can get in easily.  It's is currently very
                         hard to be legal, and very easy to be illegal.
                         \_ "very easy to be illegal..." I urge you to
                            discuss this with someone who has chosen to
                            come here as an illegal.  "Easy" is not how I would
                            describe their lives.
                            \_ Then their lives were difficult for other
                               reasons.  I've known plenty of illegal
                               immigrants who were illigal simply because
                               the system is so fucking broken that there
                               was no other way to immigrate.  I knew one
                               guy who finished his masters degree with a
                               fake social security number(while working his
                               ass off as a cook), *then* got a real ssn,
                               called the school and social engineered them
                               into switching his ssn to the real one, took
                               the citizenship test, and is now gainfully
                               employed as a citizen.  He is in pretty much
                               every way a model immigrant, yet he was illegal
                               for something like 10 years because that's
                               just how fucked the system is.  Going to
                               grad school while working full time as a cook
                               is hard.  Being "illegal" is not, if you
                               speak fluent English and are not a fucking
                               idiot.
            \_ what are the liberals view on illegal immigration and services?
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:34841 Activity:low
11/11   http://tinyurl.com/5sude
        hahaha, insurgents are getting desperate as we tighten the noose
        around Fallja.
        \_ Your post is eerily similar to Bush calling the whole insurgency
           the "last desperate gasps of resistance" last year.
        \_ As much as it would be good for us to 'win the peace' in Iraq, I
           know that won't happen.  So I wish we could just hurry up and lose
           as fast as possible to minimize our casualties.
2004/11/11-12 [Uncategorized] UID:34842 Activity:nil
11/11   what does "ping" mean in the context of a free republic
        page? - danh
        \_ I think it's some sort of popularity ranking thing.
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:34843 Activity:low
11/11   Things falling apart in Holland.  http://www.slate.com/id/2109523
        \_ Motd poster uses misleading headline.  <DEAD>127.0.0.1<DEAD>
           \_ cf Yeats, The Second Coming
        \_ things falling apart in the world after Iraq, what's your point
           \_ Well, the article claims that the prime suspect Mohammed Bouyeri
              became radical post 9/11, and the murder of Theo van Gogh was
              the trigger point of the violence, but I'm sure we can squeeze
              Iraq in there somehow.
           \_ There was no intention in winning points in some kind of my
              side/your side motd battle with the post.  I would hope that
              all of us, no matter which side we belong to in the great motd
              war, can view with sadness the murder of van Gogh, the violence
              that followed, and the worsening attitude in Holland. -op
           \_ Hey, can we blame Ayatollah Khomeini issuing a death sentence
              on Salman Rushdie on the Iraq invasion too?
        \_ Ought to check out the film, guys.  Lots of body.
        \_ At least van Gogh wasn't buried alive too.
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Abortion, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34844 Activity:nil
11/11   http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/11/bush.cabinet/index.html
        Pro-life wing nuts all pissy at Bush because of Gonzales, who
        is pro-choice. That's for electing Bush you dumb fuck right
        wing Christians!!!
        \_ thank you for the rant, left winger
        \_ Bush is actually pretty centrist.  He may be trying to reign in
           the far right parts of his administration.
           \_ OMG you made a funny!
           \_ Supreme Court nominee will be liked by the more conservative
              in the party.
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:34845 Activity:nil
11/11   Good 'ol FAIR AND BALANCED Fox News, coming to your cell phone soon:
        http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/11/10/fox.mobile.ap/index.html
2004/11/11 [Reference/History/WW2/Japan] UID:34846 Activity:nil
11/11   Iris Chang commits suicide.
        http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/11/MNGB59PKL01.DTL
2004/11/11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:34847 Activity:very high 61%like:34850
11/11   Here's one for the Arafat trolls to chew on for a while:
        http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/11/arafat_the_monster
        \_ Hell NO! We won't think!
        \_ You are right. It was so much easier when the Palestinians
           peacefully accepted their ethnic cleansing. I hate that bastard
           for daring to fight back.
           \_ Wow.  Revisionist history makes yet another appearance on the
              motd.
              \_ What's revisionist about it?
                 \_ Um, 'ethnic cleansing'?
        \_ What's to chew on? Palestinians have used terrorism. Is this news?
           Shall we chew on that while ignoring Israeli occupation? How does
           that make sense?
        \_ wait a minute, so suicide bombing is evil, but killing civilans
           blindly using American donated Apache gunship, missiles,
           and tanks is perfectly ok?                   -peacenik
           \_ I think there's a substantial difference between thugs that
              TARGET civillians with carbombs and suicide bombers and
              beheadings as a tactic to control the people vs trying to
              kill the people that are doing this TO THEIR OWN COUNTRYMEN
              (mostly, anyhow).  The US is doing everything it can to
              minimize civillian deaths, but the remorseless insurgents
              must be eliminated.  I suspect that if the US just ... left
              ... that the people stepping forward to fill the vacuum would
              create a legacy hideous beyond describing.  It's rather sad
              that someone getting a Berkeley education would need this
              explained to them.  If you think the use of these weapons is
              blind, then honestly, you're saying you can't tell the
              difference between random violence against innocents and
              violence targeted against inherently violent people that have
              no respect for life.
              \_ in war, there's no such a thing as good civilians vs. evil
                 militants. The militants are the civilians, and at times
                 the civilians are the militants. The civilians give birth
                 for new militants, and they feed and shelter
                 each other, period. And by the way there's no such a
                 thing as Berkeley educated people having homogeneous
                 opinions, and in fact, not everyone on motd is educated
                 let along having a Berkeley degree. The idea that the
                 world is so black and white, is so Bush.
                 \_ It's not entirely binary, but there really are normal
                    civilians and thugs.  Civilians mostly just want to be
                    left alone.  Thugs terrorize them into giving them shelter,
                    etc.  You = m0r0n (the dangerous moral relativist kind)
                    \_ Come on, don't be so harsh.  Where would this world
                       be without Lenin's "useful idiots?"
2004/11/11-12 [Reference/Religion] UID:34848 Activity:very high
11/11   I just watched Theo Van Gogh's controversial 11 min film. I'm
        not a very religious guy, so here is what I have to say. It was
        as good as watching The Passion of the Christ. In another word,
        I was not impressed. The upside is that I didn't spend a dime
        on it (got it from bittorrent) and only wasted 11 min
        of my life, vs. 3 hours of The Passion crap.
        \_ So what's wrong with Passion of the Christ? I thought it was
           pretty good. I'm an atheist but I do know a bit about religion.
           Perhaps you didn't understand the context? I obviously know
           that Passion of the Christ is propoganda, but it's very good
           propoganda like Leni Refinstahl. It is also by no means historical
           although it makes pretenses to be such. However, on a cinematic
           level it was certainly interesting and picture is quite beautiful
           to look at. If you didn't like it due to the religious/political
           controversy around it then say so.
           \_ I don't disagree with the religion and I loved the setting
              and language and props. However, 1/2 of the movie was about
              the bloody whipping, which wasn't that graphic in the bible.
              It was unnecessary and very insulting. You don't need violence
              to scare people into believing Christianity.      -christian
              \_ So I read all about the scourging and the crowning with
                 thorns and then the cross veshch and all that cal, and I
                 viddied better that there was something in it. While the
                 stero played bits of lovely Bach I closed my Glazzies and
                 viddied myself helping in and even taking charge of the
                 tolchocking and nailing in, being dressed in a like toga
                 that was the heighth of Roman fashion.  So being in Staja
                 84F was not all that wasted, and the Governor himself was
                 very pleased to hear that I had taken to like Religion, and
                 that was where I had my hopes.
              \_ You are an idiot.  Gibson is not an evangelical monkey in
                 your pocket.  He isn't trying to recruit people into
                 Catholicism, he is paying a very personal tribute to Christ,
                 which happened to have done very well at the box office.
                 If you think violence on Christ is insulting, you should maybe
                 think a little more about that whole 'sacrificial lamb' thing.
                        \_ Roger Ebert called the movie "The most violent
                           I've ever seen" (he gave it 4 stars though). Why
                           would I want to sit through 2 hours of someone
                           getting beat to a pulp?
                           \_ So don't.  But don't get all highminded about how
                              the violence is 'insulting' or 'unnecessary.'
              \_ It "wasn't that graphic in the bible?"  It was pretty
                 much exactly that graphic.  It just that during biblical
                 times everyone knew what it meant to be crucified by the
                 romans, so they didn't need to describe it in detail.
                 Gibson was trying to give some context to the modern
                 viewer.
        \_ I'm trying to watch it on ifilm and it keeps dying halfway
           through.  Does anybody have it in another format?
           \_ I was able to watch it at 56k.
        \_ you know if the film was more educating or entertaining
           I'd feel sad for his murder. I don't.
           \_ Is the woman telling her own story, or just fiction?
           \_ I see, so since his little movie wasn't impressive it's ok to
              murder him? If this guy just died in an accident or something
              I don't think anyone would give a shit. What's sad is religious
              fundamentalism.
        \_ The cleavage is good.  So is the curve of the one wearing a white
           bra.
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34849 Activity:nil
11/11   ""Midwesterners don't really relate to Democrats," Carol Kolb,
        editor-in-chief of satirical newspaper The Onion and a Wisconsin
        native, told http://FOXNews.com. "Especially Kerry, he was much more
        intellectual than Bush, and that's not what someone in Middle
        America relates to."
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138347,00.html
2004/11/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34850 Activity:very high 61%like:34847
11/11   Here's one for the Arafat trolls to chew on for a while:
        http://tinyurl.com/4sljz (boston.com)
        \_ Hell NO! We won't think!
        \_ You are right. It was so much easier when the Palestinians
           peacefully accepted their ethnic cleansing. I hate that bastard
           for daring to fight back.
           \_ Wow.  Revisionist history makes yet another appearance on the
              motd.
              \_ What's revisionist about it?
                 \_ Um, 'ethnic cleansing'?
                    \_ The Palestinians just all left their own homes
                       and farms on their own accord? Right-o.
        \_ What's to chew on? Palestinians have used terrorism. Is this news?
           Shall we chew on that while ignoring Israeli occupation? How does
           that make sense?
        \_ wait a minute, so suicide bombing is evil, but killing civilans
           blindly using American donated Apache gunship, missiles,
           and tanks is perfectly ok?                   -peacenik
           \_ I think there's a substantial difference between thugs that
              TARGET civillians with carbombs and suicide bombers and
              beheadings as a tactic to control the people vs trying to
              kill the people that are doing this TO THEIR OWN COUNTRYMEN
              (mostly, anyhow).  The US is doing everything it can to
              minimize civillian deaths, but the remorseless insurgents
              must be eliminated.  I suspect that if the US just ... left
              ... that the people stepping forward to fill the vacuum would
              create a legacy hideous beyond describing.  It's rather sad
              that someone getting a Berkeley education would need this
              explained to them.  If you think the use of these weapons is
              blind, then honestly, you're saying you can't tell the
              difference between random violence against innocents and
              violence targeted against inherently violent people that have
              no respect for life.
              \_ in war, there's no such a thing as good civilians vs. evil
                 militants. The militants are the civilians, and at times
                 the civilians are the militants. The civilians give birth
                 for new militants, and they feed and shelter
                 each other, period. And by the way there's no such a
                 thing as Berkeley educated people having homogeneous
                 opinions, and in fact, not everyone on motd is educated
                 let along having a Berkeley degree. The idea that the
                 world is so black and white, is so Bush.
                 \_ Holy shit, you've missed the point so completely it makes
                    my teeth ache!  The point is a matter of intent b/t the
                    US military vs the intent of the terrorists.  Likening
                    them is dumb.  Jesus H Christ, are you even posting in the
                    correct thread?  I'm honestly baffled.
                 \_ It's not entirely binary, but there really are normal
                    civilians and thugs.  Civilians mostly just want to be
                    left alone.  Thugs terrorize them into giving them shelter,
                    etc.  You = m0r0n (the dangerous moral relativist kind)
                    \_ Come on, don't be so harsh.  Where would this world
                       be without Lenin's "useful idiots?"
2017/09/21 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:November:11 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>