11/2    Now the GOP must confront the spectre of the witch running
        in 2008.
        \-^GOP^Democrats
        \_ You must not fear.  Fear is the mind killer.  Fear is the little
           death that brings about... oh nevermind.

11/2    Someone please tell me the consequences of Bush 4 more years?
        So he'll appoint judges and make abortion illegal, fine.
        Privatizing social security, fine. National deficit stays
        the same or worse, fine. What else?
        \_ My prediction is that the worst, from your point of view, that
           will happen is more tax cuts. -- ilyas
        \_ Abortion will never be outlawed, get over yourself.
           \_ It will be outlawed on a state level.
        \_ He will continue to lead the country such that we alienate _every_
           other country on Earth.  Terrorist factions receive increasing
           support (indrectly) from those nations who were once our staunch
           allies.  The World is a More Dangerous Place, and we're back in an
           arms race, but this time it's only a defensive one to protect our
           borders, because we can't attack everyone and we'll find no allies
           on any future targets, no matter how deserving.
        \_ Dubya bombs Iran.  Iran builds nukes with hidden centrifuges our
           CIA couldn't find.  Iran loses nukes.  Oops!  U.S. city nuked
           with fission nuclear bomb.  In the mean time, world continues to
           hate us.
           \_ Exactly like the 1980s, right?
              \_ You talking about Osiraq?
           \- abortion will be avail for upper middle class people. they are
              also unlikely to be significantly affected by say a poorly
              designed school voucher program ... the schools in a place
              like saratoga will be fine, and in a place like SF, the white
              people already send their kids to private school [sf pub sch dist
              is <20% white?] ... poor people will be given things like $100
              tax cut and told they can create some kind of health savings
              account, but will probably shaft them in the long run. hopefully
              dumb programs like going to mars or a moonbase wont happen from
              science hacks the admin listens to. the plutocratization partly
              under the guise of the "ownership society" will be one of the
              worst effects, and the other is brown people getting the big
              shaft via the patriot act and other auxilliary "enabling"
              legislation for war on islam. there are a few other bad things,
              but those would probably ocurr under the dems too. it would be
              nice to image we would intervene in darfur, but i dont think
              nice to imagine we would intervene in darfur, but i dont think
              these guys care about something like that. at least cliton and
              albright appear to feel some shame over usa non-action in
              rwanda. i agree, iran gets nukes. but at this point that
              probably happens under kerry too. will be interesting to see
              if EU picks a fight with USA. i mean who is going to take the
              first step or reconciliation? --psb
              \_ Are you drunk?

11/2    Why is Orange County so red? San Diego-- easy, a lot of dumb
        and patriotic servicemen. But Orange?
        \_ I am glad you can disparage those "dumb" serviceman with your
           freedom you owe them but hey, what can I expect from those
           selfish many who never served.
           \- i feel sorry for them ... i think they are being taken advantage
              of by BUSHCO, halliburton etc.
              \_ I'm glad they feel that way 1 out of 3 times. Don't forget
                 Halliburton was hailed by Clinton for their work in Kosovo.
                 Please, BTW, tell me just what other companies provide
                 the same services and take the same risks ?
                 \_ Bechtel.
                 \_ so, no bid contract is ok?
        \_ Rich, hard-working people live there.  Rich, hard-working people
           want smaller government, less taxes -- they don't want handouts for
           lazy poor people or higher taxes for inefficient govt bureaucracy.
                \-a recent study suggests there is more willingness to fund
                  social welfare programs when it is visibly and obviously
                  going to "people like you" ... that may in part explain why
                  some areas are more willing to have social welfare ... some
                  people are suggesting the support for social welfare programs
                  in europe is declining with brown people immigration.
                  also the OC people dont feel bound by principle to suck it
                  up when the "going isnt good" ... think state bailout
                  after OC investment fiasco. i think the OC is still the
                  largest municipal banruptcy in american history. --psb
                \_ Why would you vote for Bush if you wanted a smaller
                   government?
                   \_ "Free Heathcare for Everyone!" answer your question?
                      \_ Do you even know what that plan entailed? FYI:
                         it didn't cover everyone. Providing basic health
                         insurance to those who can't get it from employers
                         doesn't require too much. Those people end up costing
                         money regardless, in emergency rooms for example.

11/2    Democratic soul-searching begins now:  NY Times op-ed piece
        http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/03/opinion/03kris.html?hp
        "The Republicans are smarter," mused Oregon's governor, Ted
        Kulongoski, a Democrat. "They've created ... these social issues to
        get the public to stop looking at what's happening to them
        economically." ... Bill Clinton intuitively understood the challenge,
        and John Edwards seems to as well, perhaps because of their own
        working-class origins. But the party as a whole is mostly in denial.
        \_ I find the comment that comes up time and time again, about poor
           southern whites voting 'against their self-interest' revealing.
        \_ yeah, tax breaks for billionaires.. totally dead-on!
           \_ isn't this true?  You know, with the vast majority of the tax
              break going to the $200K+ bracket, the removal of the dividend
              tax, the removal of the inheritance tax?
              Well, to be accurate, it should say "millionaires and up".
              \_ It is true, but it misses the point.  Is it not possible to
                 vote against one's direct self-interest because, perhaps,
                 principles are involved?  A libertarian might accept a higher
                 tax rate because he believes a flat tax is fairer than
                 progressive tax.  Why is this so incomprehensible?  -- ilyas
                 \_ Um, someone moved my post.  My post was in response to
                    "tax breaks for billionaires".
                    Anyways, who says I didn't comprehend what you just wrote,
                    ilyas?
                    My post was meant to convey the FACT that most of the
                    tax breaks are going to the rich -- not the rightness
                    of it, which is different for every person, as you've
                    implied.
                    \_ Not you.  I was talking about the author of the article,
                       and his seeming incomprehesion of southern voting
                       patterns 'against their interest.'  This is a common
                       complaint from liberal circles, and I find it odd.
                       Those guys down south don't live in the same 'fight
                       for a piece of the public pie by any means necessary'
                       world as you do. (again I don't necessarily mean 'you').
                         -- ilyas
                       \_ the article is quite clear that it is talking
                          about poor, rural voters voting against their
                          "economic interest", which means the rich get more
                          money, the poor get comparatively less -- for the
                          short-term at least.  It's a point of debate whether
                          a less progressive tax system works long-term.
                          It is also quite clear that the author believes
                          these voters are voting for their "social self-
                          interest" (my quotes on that one), which is voting
                          their values -- such as no gay marriage for queers.
                          their values.
                 \_ Ok how is a flat tax "fairer"? no one is forcing you to
                    earn more. If you believe an income tax is fair in the
                    first place then what's the big deal with progressive?
                    If it's too high you just don't work, and have a lot more
                    free time. If it's too high you're probably screwing your
                    economy. But that's a separate issue than fairness.
                    For example, a high tax on income over $1m/y wouldn't
                    truly hamper anybody's "pursuit of happiness", and would
                    be fair: anyone earning that much gets that tax.
                    \_ Look we are not going to have a long ass ranty
                       discussion about a flat tax, ok.  For most people,
                       in most contexts, fairness = proportionality.  Fairness
                       != proportionality only if you are in magical liberal
                       taxland.  -- ilyas
                       \_ proportional? not proportional to services used,
                          not even a flat tax does that. so it's already
                          unfair in that sense. once you're there, i'm arguing
                          there's no "moral" difference going to progressive.
                          \_ *sigh*  If you want proportionality for services
                             used, charge for them directly.  This argument is
                             stupid.  You are not convincing me, and I am not
                             convincing you (nor am I particularly interested,
                             as far as I am concerned CA liberals can rot in a
                             hell of their own devising, I am getting out of
                             here first chance I get). -- ilyas
                             \_ Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
                                This argument is no more stupid than your usual
                                motd rantings. You just refuse to see outside
                                your chosen worldview. I suppose CA's liberal
                                hell is why so many people have been coming
                                here. Why are you here anyway? Using our
                                subsidized university system? Shouldn't you
                                already be out in Georgia Tech or something?
                                Oh wait that's public too... ok, Duke.
                                \_ I think your next line is to complain about
                                   me using the phone system and the freeways.
                                   This conversation is SO over. -- ilyas
                                   \_ Not quite.  While you might not be able
                                      to avoid using the freeways and phone
                                      system, there were plenty of private
                                      universities, including top tier ones,
                                      yet YOU CHOSE to attend the evil govt
                                      funded public school.  The free market
                                      provided you with alternatives, but
                                      YOU CHOSE to force all of us "at
                                      gunpoint" to pay for your education.
                                      Way to stand by your principles.
                                        -meyers
                                      \_ Sure, I can avoid using the phone and
                                         the freeway if I go become amish.
                                         Similarly, I go where I am accepted.
                                         Though a private school would probably
                                         be better, understand that all
                                         universities in the US, private or
                                         not, are heavily gvt subsidized, so
                                         the point is kind of moot.  Plus,
                                         I where they let me. -- ilyas
                                         I go where they let me. -- ilyas
                                         \_ Stay on topic: we're talking about
                                            your decision to attend a public
                                            university instead of a private
                                            one.  Are you saying that *no*
                                            private school would accept you?
                                              -meyers
                                            \_ No private school out of a
                                               reasonably large set to which
                                               I applied accepted me.  Again,
                                               because there is little moral
                                               difference of kind (only of
                                               degree) between a fully gvt
                                               funded school (UCLA), and a
                                               partially gvt funded school
                                               (Stanford) I don't really see
                                               your point.  It reduces to
                                               freeways.  -- ilyas
              \_ They only vote on abortion, anti-queer stuff, and whoever
                 thumps the most bible. They think this is their self interest.
                 They bang their cousins and mope around in their hick towns,
                 and send their kids to the army, why not vote Bush. Bush says
                 "y'all" and plays country music at the rallies.
                 \_ If you believe NPR; the Dems lost because the Reps
        were better able to motivative their base. This was especially
        true in Florida with the Christian Right ( Hah! What a &%*$
        oxymoron) who viewed this election as an actual war against
        their belief system; disturbingly similar to what all of those
        racist groups used to blather on about. Who would think that a
        country like ours could become more intolerant. The whole
        youth vote thing never materialized as expected; more due to
        apathy than anything else; according to at least some of the
        networks; something akin to only people who pay taxes are
        motivated to vote. Sad.. really really sad

11/2    Kerry now only has one scenario in which he can win:
        (1) Kerry wins OH and WI
        Kerry's people are saying there could be as many as 250,000 provisional
        ballots in OH to review.  These ballots will not be reviewed until
        11 days have passed, for emotions to cool.
        IMO, Kerry should fight, and he should not feel bad about it.
        \_ Yeah, but Kerry is down by 125,000 votes on OH.
           \_ Yeah, currently, with 99% of precints reporting, the gap is
              144,000 votes.
        \_ If Kerry wins Ohio, he only needs WI, which he looks to have.
           \_ Yeah, I just came to this conclusion myself, too.  Corrected.
           \_ IA and NM are somewhat longshots, but not as bad as OH. It'll
              be hard for Kerry to win OH. I think it's over for Kerry, it
              seems very unlikely he will sweep. NM looks very much like a lock
              as is OH.
              \_ Well, you'll need to wait 12 days before OH declares a
                 winner.  I don't think this will change even if Kerry
                 concedes OH.
              \_ This is ridiculous. BC's margin's in PA is smaller
                 than OH but they called PA for KE. And yet they
                 expect 90% of the provisional ballots to overcome 144K
                 and growing difference?!? Not to mention the popular vote
                 which for the first time since '92 there is a majority.
                 Please tell me how the popular vote is going to be out-of-
                 sync with the electoral vote with 4mil+ ?
                 \_ It's 250,000 provisional ballots.
                    But yeah, if that number were correct, you'd need
                    4 out of 5 of the provisional votes to go Kerry.
                    You might have called it ridiculous too when Gore beat
                    Dubya by 500,000 votes.
                    \_ 500K is not 4 mil
                       \_ Yeah, and 4 million ends up being a 3% difference.
                          So, where do you draw the line?
                          \_ Look, mr. "Where do you draw the line."  You got
                             pwned at the polls today.  Time to do some
                             thinking.

11/2    The South Shall^H^H^H^H^H Has Risen Again --psb
        \_ the current colors are pretty much the same as 1861.
           http://www2.lhric.org/pocantico/civilwar/map.htm
           \- hello my point was that "this" republican victory doesnt seem
              to be the usual somewhat libertarian, small govt victory but
              the activist state implementing a southern relig agenda.
              \_ http://compilers.cs.ucla.edu/~kchang/2004/1102.Election

11/2    For the more progressively inclided motd readers, may I suggest:
        http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=manly_suicide

11/2    Anyone have a http://democraticunderground.com user ID so I can
        lurk? Thanks.

11/2    Bush=president, Daschle=losing seat, Edwards' seat=gone.
        Liberal ideas=pwned at the polls.
        \- daschle falling doesnt really matter except for rep++
           i suppose. you disagree?
           \_ daschle's fall is largely symbolic though.  He was a powerful
              man once.  Now he exits stage left, and with a whimper to boot.
           \_ It's not. Look at '94 when Foley got booted. Leaders of parties
              don't get voted out unless there's a shift.

11/2    HAHAHA KISS MY ASS

11/2    Fuck looks like Prop 69 is going to pass.
        http://www.10news.com/politics/2887351/detail.html

11/03   Soda will go down at 8pm tonight for a disk upgrade.
        \_ The way things are going, I'm not expecting it to come back up.
           Offsite backups, people, this ship is going down.
           \_ I don't really give a shit about my stuff on Soda (which
              is why it's on Soda), but are we going to lose our logins?
        \_ *UPDATE* We need to make the time a bit later to ensure we have
           a good recent backup, and to minimize down time.  Will wall when
           the time is near.

11/03   Soda now utilizes {s,x}bl.spamhaus.com to slow spam.

11/3    More racist southern republicans
        http://www.bobbyjindal.com
        He's not a RINO either.
        \_ What race is this guy?  He looks half-hispanic half-indian or
           something.

11/3    What an election: What I do know is that this has been
        one hell of a slam bang election season.
        Tony Blankley worked for Newt Gingrich and is editor
        of Wash. Times
        http://www.townhall.com/columnists/tonyblankley/tb20041103.shtml

11/2    So how does one get a citizenship in Canada? Do I need an
        actual residence or something?

11/2    Bush 57.4 mil, Kerry 53.7 mil popular vote. How is this
        even close? A difference of over 3 mil vote is, in my mind,
        winning in a landslide. This is just pathetic.
        \_ Well, it's 3%.  You know, like 51% to 48%.  They start thinking
           about "landslide" when it's 5% or more.  That's just how it is.
           Imagine the 3-4 million votes in the City of Los Angeles deciding
           the fate of the nation.  There you go.
           \- come on, this is a product of the "objective function"
              which was to win in the EC ... kerry didnt and shouldnt have
              been trawling for a couple of more percent of the CA or
              NY vote. note: i also thought the ALGOR people were foolishly
              whining about the popular vote in 2000 ... it is one thing to
              say "this is a good reason to get rid of the EC" but given what
              the rules were, this is like claming the wimbledon winner
              lost on games although he won on sets was robbed. --psb
              \_ Well, I think the Dems were more pissed that the Supreme
                 Court stopped the recount when there were good reasons
                 that it should have left it to the Florida Supreme Court.
                 Then again the Dems erred morally and legally by
                 asking only for recounts in Dem-heavy counties.
        \_ A landslide is what Reagan had.  This is still historically close.

11/03   The last/next thing to elect:
                http://www.harpers.org/ElectingToLeave.html

11/3    Bush gets 4 more years.  What does that mean for the US?
        Gas price will continue to go up.  Four more years of war in the
        middel east.  Bin laden will likely live four more years.  More tax
        cuts for rich.  Possible Alaska drilling.  Quest for alterative fuel
        will be held back.
        \_ Bah!  I hate Bush, but some of this is a little silly.  How exactly
           would Kerry bring down gas prices?  ANWR drilling will probably
           continue to be stopped by republicans who cross the aisle to vote
           against it for economic reasons (it's more about corporate
           welfare than energy security), and as for alternative fuels
           Bush has poured money into hydrogen vehicles and even without the
           government, the economic incentive to invent something that
           really kicks the ass of the gasoline engine will always be there.
                \_ Oil prices would trend upwards with either President but
                   with Bush there is a huge premium due to the various
                   instabilities in oil producing areas of the world, which
                   is guaranteed to continue or worsen with his reelection.
        \_ I shudder to think of some of the evil shit the Bush admin has
           been holding back due to worries of losing the election/impeachment,
           that can now be unleashed.  Don't forget a tilt of the Supreme
           court to the right, endangering abortion in the South.  Oh, and
           the twin deficits going even higher.
           that can now be unleashed since neither of those can happen now.
           Don't forget a tilt of the Supreme court to the right, endangering
           abortion in the South.  Oh, and the twin deficits going even higher.
           \_ That's what I worry most. -- op
        \_ What is this? Continuously nuke the motd so only "Bush is
           EEVVVILLL" can be read here?
        \_ I am more concerned with supreme court justice appointments...
           three of them had enough radiation that they probably glow
           in the dark (O'Connor, Renquist, and Ginsberg... sp?)
           \_ I don't get this.
                \_ Investigate cancer treatments.

11/3    Why hasn't Kerry conceded?  He lost the popular vote already.
        \_ He talked a lot about how Gore "gave up too early."  I think
           he's still trying to figure out where to sue.
        \_ Does this mean I'm NOT going to have to hear Dems whining about
           Republicans stealing the election for the next 4 years?
           \_ Not from me.  OTOH, after a lot of research, I became convinced
              that they didn't really steal it in 2000.  2000 sucked in just
              about every other way, though.

11/3    Where's the bus to Canada?
        \_ http://www.harpers.org/ElectingToLeave.html
        \_ that is the 2nd time I've heard that :p
        \_ Have a good time there, just don't say anything bad about the
           queen.  You will be censored.
                \_ Being censored is better than being monitored by Homeland
                   security.
        \_ Stop teasing and get out already.
        \_ Rather, move your MONEY overseas, before everyone else does.
           The debt is a big timebomb, if bush's policies are maintained/
           extended, the estimates are this could knock a good 1% off GDP
           growth until effectively the end of time.
           \_ Clinton should have paid down more debt when the economy was
              good and tax revenue was high.
              \_ The Republican congress was yelling for tax cuts the whole
                 time. Or maybe you're joking.
           \_ done that for some time already.  almost no US stocks left
              except for some index funds in my 401k.
        \_ Can't leave California now, too much money to make in biotech now.

11/3    Any bets on the next senate minority leader?  If they pick that
        son of a bitch Liebermann, I'm leaving the party for good.
        \_ Damn jew!
        \_ Reid, don't you know?
        \_ What's wrong with Liebermann?
           \_  He was one of the authors of the homeland security bill that
               created the DHS, is a big supporter of the patriot act,
               was part of the crusade to censor music and video games,
               is owned outright be the insurance industry, and is a total
               welfare whore for the ct. defense contractors.  In the primaries
               the candidates were asked about how to deal with America's
               healthcare crisis.  Everyone had some answer or another
               except him.  His response was basically "I don't think the
               american people want to hear about that."   Hell, even the
               republicans admit our healthcare system is fucked, they just
               disagree on how to fix it.  When someone says it's just not
               a problem, that's far far worse.  As a ct. resident, I
               particularly resent him because I've voted for him on a
               lesser-of-evils basis, but he continually represents the
               corporate interests of CT, rather than the people.
                \_ So, to sum up, he's the biggest liberal in the Senate.
                   \_  huh?
                        \_ Engage humor processor, read again.
                           \_ Sorry.  that part of my brain fused about
                              11 pm last night.  I've got dual cooling
                              fans on the rage processor, and had to shut
                              down other auxiliary fucntions.

11/3    AP reports that Kerry just called Bush to concede.
        % date
        Wed Nov  3 08:07:01 PST 2004
        \_ Must...not...gloat....
        \_ Quoth the aaron: ONE TERM FAILURE, JUST LIKE DADDY!
        \_ All hail big government conservatism!
                \_ Let's revise this:  AMERICAN FAILURE
        \_ Take that, queers!

11/3    On the other hand, if most Americans believes an idiot like
        BushCo will bring peace and prosperity to the US in the long run
        then they probably deserve to be bombed in the future. Only time
        will tell.
        \_ Unfortunately, if some place gets bombed, it's probably going
           to be somewhere in North Eeast again or CA.
           \_ Those idiot bombers, strike where it hurts, the red states.
              They are the fuckers who draw up the US foreign policy that
              makes the middle east what it is today.
              \_ *cough* *cough*

11/3    The one consolation this morning: at least I am too old to be
        drafted. I am 40 .. For those under 40: be proactive and start
        learning Farsi or Arabic.
        \_ the cutoff is usually 35, unless you possess some critical
           skill like being a doctor. they don't need computer programmers.
           \_ They didn't use the doctor-draft yet in Iraq, right?
              So they probably won't use a computer-programmer-draft.

11/3    Worked the polls yesterday.  Big rush from 6:50 to 10:00 a.m., and
        then bupkis.  Nada.  Trickles of people for the rest of the day, and
        no mad rush at 5 p.m.  380 electronic voters, 82 absentee ballots, and
        87 provisional ballots.  Very few questions on the Diebolds.  Most
        voters were late 20s to late 40s, with a skew toward the retiree group
        (since we were working out of the garage of a retirement home).  Oldest
        voter: 91.5, and pretty damn spry.  Overall: exhausting, but
        fulfilling.  Please consider volunteering next time. --erikred
        \_ Where did you volunteer? (city/state)

11/3    Did Puerto Rico citizens get to vote yesterday?  Thx.

11/3    You know, people say the country was divided along cultural, not
        economic lines.  The reasoning is that if only the poor
        southerners weren't so damn christian they d see the economic
        benefit to voting for Kerry.  I am not sure this is true.  I think
        culture not so much overshadows economic considerations, but frames
        the thoughts about economics.  I really don't think the southern
        christians are fans of the DNC economics, and this is BECAUSE they
        are christians.  -- ilyas
        \_ why?  what christian values make them hate "DNC economics"?
           \_ Well, I don't think they _hate them_, but I think christianity,
              especially more moderate christiniaty, meshes very well with
              conservative economics.  For instance, christianity has a
              spirit of giving, rendering the state-sponsored income
              redistribution to help the poor less necessary.  A
              moderate christian is a libertarian's best friend. -- ilyas
              redistribution to help the poor less necessary.  There is
              a spirit of distrust of government in christianity --
              "to the Caesar Caesar's", etc.  A moderate christian is a
              libertarian's best friend.  Also, American christianity traces
              its roots to, of course, british puritanism, with the whole
              work ethic thing.  -- ilyas
              \_ Jesus said "to the Caesar Caesar's" in reply to the
                 Pharisees' attempt to trap him as either rebellious
                 against the Romans or traitorous to the Jews.  It has
                 nothing to do with distrust of the government.
                 \_ Jesus did say that, but as with most Bible quotes,
                    you can take this quote in a larger context.  For
                    instance you can take it as a call to live a life of
                    minimal engagement with the earthly government, and
                    devoting most of one's life to spiritual matters.
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ There is no such "larger context" in the bible
                       to support this interpretation.  This would
                       be force fitting the bible to one's own view
                       as opposed to basing one's view according to the
                       bible, a dangerous practice if you ask any
                       Christian.
                       \_ I am not a christian, so I have no need to
                          fit the bible to anything.  If you doubt
                          Christiniaty, especially in its beginnings
                          as a renegade religion, and subsequently in
                          the guise of persecuted sects like the
                          puritans who just wanted to be left alone to
                          worship as they pleased does not entail a
                          certain cultural distrust of government,
                          shrug.  I think Christ himself had a very
                          anti-authoritarian message, and yes I
                          disagree with you about the quote, for this
                          reason. -- ilyas
                          \_ perhaps not you, but many supposed
                             Christians certainly are trying to
                             fit the bible to their political agenda.
                             No, Christ is not anti authority but
                             anti self-righteous hypocrites, be
                             they corrupt Jewish priests, or
                             certain politicians of today.
               \_ So, have you been practising the Christian / Jewish
                  practice of giving 1/10 th of your income for doing
                  God's work?
                  \_ Now that we have a theocracy you can deduct federal taxes
                     from your tithe.
                     \_ I thought we already can do that?
        \_ Actually, as an independent comment to what you are saying,
           I think a lot of voters voted for the guy with the right attitude
           - kill the terrorists first, and ask questions later.
           Kerry would in their minds, on the other hand, hesitate and
           think before killing terrorists.
           \_ Why not take the same attitude and use it for law enforcement
              in the US? I am ALL FOR IT, SERIOUSLY!
           \_ You aren't paying attention, are you?  The biggest issue turned
              out to be "God, guns and gays."
        \_ anytime you bring religion into an issue, all logic needs
           to be thrown out. I mean, just look at the Christian vs.
           Muslim thing. The whole idea behind both of them is that
           "I'm right, you're wrong", you're going to hell, and I
           must eradicate you. You know, Salman Rushdie wrote bad
           things about Muslim, but in fact, Christianity isn't all
           that much better. Fuck religion.             -agnostic
           \_ In some sense, I agree with you, but you must understand that
              _all_ moral commitments are ultimately subjective in the same
              sense religion is.  Including liberal and conservative ones.
              You can't 'prove' progressive taxation to someone, it reduces
              to some moral axioms you choose to believe in.  I think most
              of political discourse isn't _really_ about logic anyways.
                -- ilyas
                \_ Uh, no.  You cannot argue that we would not have chaos
                   without a government structure, police & laws.  There are
                   some things that have been proven to be absolutely true
                   throughout the centuries, and they will always be true
                   unless mankind goes through some massive social shift
                   that has not happened in a hundred thousand years.
                   \_ Well, _I_ cannot argue this.  An anarcho-capitalist would
                      happily argue this, and I can't a priori reject what
                      he says.  And this is for a very non-controversial kind of
                      axiom, whether a central government is even necessary.
                      When we are talking about something more controversial,
                      like progressive taxation, there is clearly no objective
                      truth, just subjective opinion on human rights. -- ilyas

11/3    So, wtf?  Were we just dressed like we wanted it or what?
        \_ What?
           \_ He means that all Americans just got raped.
              \_ With tentacles, no less.

11/3    So much for the youth vote. Hahahahahaa.. Have fun in Canada, eh?
        http://tinyurl.com/4vkns

11/3    Well, guess the liberals like to nuke the motd when they lose...

11/3    Dear Mr. Osama Bin Laden, please continue your cause. Please
        don't target your friends in big cities like New York, Los
        Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, etc. Do please target ultra right
        Christian gun-owning rednecks in the red states like Ohio
        and Florida. Thank you.
        \_ And if you target Indiana, pretty-please spare Bloomington.
           The Demos won all but one of the county and city races last night.
        \_ I guess the end of the election hasn't made the trolls go away for
           even a second.
           \_ Hello?  This is the motd?
           \_ How is this a troll? In 10+ years, when the orphaned Iraqi's
              grow up, what do you think the first thing on their mind is?
              Do you really think terriorism can be solved by killing more
              innocent people? Kill first, ask questions later? If BushCo
              wants to fuck the rest of the world as they pleases, then
              they have every right to strike us back however they can.
              And idiots who vote for Bush and think Bush will make them
              safer just don't see it.
              \_ That's why we have to round up and kill all of the Iraqi
                 orphans! Duh! You liberals are too soft!

11/3    F* Europe, and especially F* the Brits who were cold calling Ohioans
        to get them to vote Kerry.  We declared independence in 1776, and
        we've won the right to cast our own votes.
        \_ Fuck.  Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.  Just say it.  Fuck fuck fuck.
        \_ Yeah, seconded, F* the Brits.  USA!  USA! Foreigners = teh gay!

11/3    [ Apparently you aren't aware of what happens when you make an
          assassination threat.  Freedom of speech my ass.  No Secret Service
          after Soda, please. ]

11/3    [ HEY.  NO SECRET SERVICE.  FUCK OFF, FUCKTARD. ]

11/3    Sidney Blumenthal column that sums it all up for me.
        "The Right God"
        http://csua.org/u/9sh (http://www.salon.com advertising rigamarole, blah
        blah blah)
        \_ If you actually believe this, no wonder you lost.

11/3    So I was talking to my O'Reilly-watching younger brother last night
        about how Dick Cheney was wrong about there being "no doubt" about
        Saddam having WMDs or even WMD programs.  My brother replied, kind
        of emotionally, that Saddam definitely had them, and maybe they were
        moved to Iran or Syria or they were still hidden.  He said he "knows
        how the world works".
        I told him about David Kay, who Dubya appointed, who said "We were
        almost all wrong"; and the Duelfer report, which concluded there were
        no WMDs or WMD programs.  I told him Saddam wanted to play by the
        rules to lift sanctions, but pretend that he had WMDs to deter other
        countries, and that he thought the CIA knew he didn't have them.
        I told him as soon as the UN looked away, Saddam would restart his
        WMD programs.  I told him that Cheney said "We just don't know" about
        WMDs being moved to Syria or Iran, since there were trucks spotted
        moving across the border with contents unknown.  My younger brother
        insisted Saddam had weapons.  Why?  He said again, rather strenuously,
        because he "knows how the world works".  He sugested that David Kay
        is a politician.  I said "What motive does he have?"  "Maybe to write
        a book!"  "He's been ostracized.  He went in almost certain there were
        WMDs.  He was hand-picked by Bush.  What motive does he have?"
        "He's being political."  My younger brother "knows how the world
        works", and probably voted for Dubya.
        \_ My cousin also believes this, because he says be have taped
           conversations that Saddam himself believed this.  Supposedly there
           might have been people in his own government who may have mislead
           Saddam, and by extension, the intelligence we gathered.
           \_ The problem is that, the Duelfer report notes that the U.S.
              has been interrogating Saddam, and he has been forthcoming in
              appeals to his vanity.  Saddam didn't have them, he wanted
              Iran to think he had them, he would rebuild them as soon as
              sanctions were lifted and do what he could get away with.
        \_ the problem is not your brother, but Fox News that mixes opinions
           and facts and distorts views for the right wing agenda.

11/3    Bush first president since Bush Sr. to win > 50% of popular vote:
            http://truthnews.net/comment/2000_11_mandate.html
        (article written in 2000)
        \_ uh, so it was Bush Sr. > 50%, then Clinton < 50%, then Bush Jr.
           Term 1 < 50%, now Bush Jr Term 2 > 50%?
           \_ yes
              \_ What about Clinton Term 2?
                 \_ Clinton got < 50% of popular.  See infoplease link below.
        \_ http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781450.html

11/3    Now that I think about it, Kerry lost partly because of Clinton.
        The Clinton Lewinski scandal scarred the Democrat party's image.
        Most of the Christians were so horrified that he got away with
        such a crime that they vowed to never vote for the pagan party,
        the Democrats. Thanks a lot, Bill Clinton.
        \_ Uh, no.
        \_ Pinning the blame on any one person is deluded.  The fundamentalists
           have spent 40 years steadily seizing power.  The fact that liberals
           just dismiss these people as ignorant bigots, and can't see what
           is really happening in their own country, is why they keep losing.
        \_ I think the Democrat party lost because of Kerry.  If it were
           someone less flip-floppy who was running against Dubya yesterday,
           I'd have favored the Dems.
           \_ No, whoever attributed yesterday's blow out to the religious
              right's systematic merging of political & religious
              practices is spot on. Meticulous and long-building, Rove's
              organization of alliances between conservative institutions
              got validated -- nevermind that upon closer inspection there
              is nothing compassionate or conservative in this
              administration's policy-making. The content of the different
              political parties' beliefs and their framing were beside the
              point. Jesus Christ, Son of God, could've been the Demo
              nominee, and Rove still would've kicked his ass. --elizp
              \_ It goes way beyond Rove.  The conservative religious political
                 movement has roots going back decades, and its true father is
                 really Billy Graham.
                 \_ And let's not forget Goldwater. --elizp
                    \_ Always thought of Goldwater as more of a hardcore anti
                       communist than a Billy Graham, evangelical type, but
                       perhaps you're right.
              \_ elizp: Jesus would never ever get nominated by the Democrats.
        \_ Very off the mark.  As a friend of mine put it, the question most
           people on Bush's side seemed to be asking themselves was, are we at
           war or not, while the real question was, has this President executed
           the war well or not.  Bush voters mostly thought that Kerry was a
           peacenik, despite all of his speeches to the contrary.  That's the
           power of propaganda.

11/3    Sorry to say this but the Christians are just as much intolerant
        as the other religions. The fact that they needed to convert
        "pagans" in the middle ages, FOUR TIMES, in their failed
        crusades, says a lot. They have this "You're either with us or
        against us, I'm right you're wrong, you'll go to hell if you
        don't believe in Jesus" type of attitude. For centuries, they
        try to convert people, and when they fail, they go off
        eradicating them. Now, Christians in the US support the
        fifth Christian Crusade of "spreading good and eradicating
        evil" (e.g. Bush doctrine of preemption). Things just
        haven't changed much in the past 1000 years. I think Christians
        are as much narrowminded and intolerant as the Muslims.
                                                -logical agnostic
        \_ the Jihads and islamic conquering of the western world
        happened before the crusades..
           \_ both religions are intolerant and stupid
        \_ Desperately looking for something to justify your inane views,
           huh?

11/3    Is it just me or does Adobe Acrobat tend to go apeshit in Mozilla on
        Linux?  I've also noticed than on WinXP it stays running even after I
        close the page that was using it
        \_ Are you using Acrobat 6.0 Reader? If you are, downgrade to 5.0.
           6.0 has a lot of problems, period.
           \_ Acrobat 6 doesn't exist for Linux.
           \_ For Acrobat6, I urge you go to the "plug_ins" directory
              and get rid of all but EWH32.api and Search.api plugins.
              This will speed up the start up time by an order of
              magnitude and enhance the stability of the reader.  google
              for detail.
        \_ I've had issues under Windows as well (with 6.0).  Works fine
           since I told it to not check for upgrades. -John
        \_ It seems like the latest Linux version (5.0.9) seems to have
           serious problems on all recent Linux distributions (i have used
           it on Fedora and RHEL). It uses up lots of CPU, crashes, fails
           to format documents properly, etc. It still doesn't seem to
           have problems on older distributions such as RedHat 7.3.
           Maybe it has to do with the new kernel or the http://x.org stuff..
           \_ If that's the case then it most likely is a libc version
              problem. I know that precompiled binaries on older commercial
              software tends to break between RH 8 and RH 9. I would install
              the backwards compatible libc versions, I think there was an
              rpm for that, do a websearch on the topic.

11/3    My company's looking to hire. See
        http://www.reactivity.com/about_us/careers.html#positions
               -- dpassage@flophouse.com
        \_ is it in Canada?

11/3    Hillary in '08...
        \_ Do you really think she'll win the nomination?
        \_ I assume McCain '08, which is how they got him to play ball.
           \_ Do you mean on a republican or democrat platform?
              \_ Actually I mean the presidency.  The economy is likely to
                 improve during Bush's 2nd term, and if Iraq didn't stop
                 Bush '04, I don't see what will stop McCain in '08.
                 \_ Rudy G!
        \_ Hillary is not a serious candidate.  Edwards is more likely.  -tom
           \_ Can you elaborate? I would vote for her in 08 if she does.
              \_ She has a lot of baggage around her already, and she's
                 female.  You really think any of the redneck states are
                 going to vote for a Democratic woman from New York?  -tom
                 \_ The rednecks will not vote for her, but the woman in
                    those states will right?
                    \_ Very unlikely.  They might vote for Laura Bush.  -tom
              \_ She gets a lot of play in the exact same places that voted
                 for Kerry, and she gets bagged on in the exact same places
                 that voted for Bush.  I love Hillary, but this is a non-
                 starter.
        \_ To take that a step further, I think it'll be
                Bush vs. Clinton
           in '08. Hillary Clinton vs. Jeb Bush. The Bush Dynasty should last
           a good 20-30 more years.
                \_ You really think America could survive 20-30 years of
                   continuous "leadership" from the Bush clan? Look at the
                   state we are in today with just 4 years under our belt!

11/3    I know indeed what evil I intend to do,
        but stronger than all my afterthoughts is my fury,
        fury that brings upon mortals the greatest evils.
        -Euripides, _Medea_
        \_ It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Although the Death Star has
           been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from
           their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy.
           Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters
           led by Luke Skywalker has established a new secret base on the
           remote ice world of Hoth.
           The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker,
           has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of
           space...
           \_ we destroyed the death star? i don't think so. we don't even
              have a skywalker.
              \_ Maybe it's from Bin Laden's perspective.  He might fancy
                 himself a Skywalker.
                 \_ We are down 2 death stars in NY.
                 \_ Return of the Caliph!
        \_ I am the one, Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
           My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
           Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
           Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
           Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
           My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.

           I twist the truth, I rule the world, my crown is called deceit
           I am the emperor of lies, you grovel at my feet
           I rob you and I slaughter you, your downfall is my gain
           And still you play the sycophant and revel in my pain
           And all my promises are lies, all my love is hate
           I am the politician, and I decide your fate

           I march before a martyred world, an army for the fight
           I speak of great heroic days, of victory and might
           I hold a banner drenched in blood, I urge you to be brave
           I lead you to your destiny, I lead you to your grave
           Your bones will build my palaces, your eyes will stud my crown
           For I am Mars, the god of war, and I will cut you down
           \_ I think I saw this in the opening to an episode of Andromeda
        \_ Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
           Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
           The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
           The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
           The best lack all conviction, while the worst
           Are full of passionate intensity.
           \_ Right, exactly.  Now who were the more passionate here?
           Surely some revelation is at hand;
           Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
           ... And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
           Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
        \_ "The issue is not a mean one.  It is whether you will be content
           to be a comfortable England, modeled and moulded upon Continental
           principles and meeting in due course an inevitable fate, or whether
           you will be a great country, an imperial country, a country where
           your sons, when they rise, rise to paramount positions, and obtain
           not merely the esteem of their countrymen, but command the respect
           of the world." - Benjamin Disraeli
           \_ I liked my Euripides the most.  Short and to the point.  --op
              \_ I think we're making different points here.
                 \_ i was referring more to the big spew above than your
                    Disraeli quote.
                    \_ I rate the probability that Lemmy Killmeister rips
                       off your head and shits down your neck as: high.

11/3    If the deficit continues at the current rate, what would it imply?
        I mean, what does all the deficit really means?
        \_ Deficit/surplus as a percentage of GDP:
           1976, -4.2%
           1983, -6%
           1992, -4.7%
           2003, -3.5%
           http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1821&sequence=0#table2
           \_ Any figures for national debt as % of GDP?
           \_ Looks like we'll have to raise taxes to get out it.
              \_ Taxes were coming regardless of who won the election.  The
                 question is who is going to get taxed.  Kerry would have taxed
                 the rich.  Bush will likely gut the EITC among other things.
                 \_ One of the problems with taxing the rich that
                    raising taxes often just makes them put their money
                    in shelters, which doesn't help the economy OR tax
                    revenues.  Notice how Kerry's wife only pays 15% of
                    her income in taxes?
                    \_ Shhh... We're not supposed to talk about Teresa.
              \_ Raise taxes or pray for the economy to get hot, but
                 unfortunately the current bunch in Washington is religious.
                 However, we've clearly been here before, and the chicken
                 littles are likely overstating their case.
              \_ Nah, we'll just keep borrowing until total collapse.

11/3    Poll - Who is the hottest?
        Jenna   : .
        Barbara :
        (the young one, not the senior one)
        Vanessa :
        Edwards : .
        \_ What about poor Alex?
        Edwards : .
        \_ Jenna is too fat. Between Barbara and Edwards, well neither are
           "hot" but Barbara had a cute smile when she gave her speeches.
           \_ Where's the motd chubby chaser when you need him?

11/3    Someone's overwriting and it ain't me.

11/3    BTW, fellow liberal hosers:
        The number one problem we have is the image of the "liberal elite":
        Unpatriotic, not proud to be an American, rich, not hard-working
        and lounging at sushi bars (thanks psb for that latter idea),
        saying and believing anything to win the election (gay marriage?),
        valuing spotted owls above jobs, being critical instead of optimistic,
        and not supporting our soldiers.
        (I'm stressing "image" of the liberal elite.  I am not saying this
        is how it actually is ... if you don't know what I'm talking about,
        do two things.  (1) Watch Team America: World Police.  (2) Read this
        thread:  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1269267/posts
        \_ I did a study 1998-ish where I tried to talk to the occupant of
           any house that sported an American flag.  Most of them are
           initially surprised by my knocking on their door, but they became
           quite talkative once I explained myself.  Out of 23 houses that
           I visited in Northern California (mainly around the Peninsula)
           and in suburban Boston (around Wilmington and Norwood), 21 self-
           identified as Republican.  The other 2 households were around
           Boston and were Pats fans.  This has no scientific value, but I
           thought the result was interesting nevertheless.
        \_ I disagree. It's a combination of uncharismatic leaders, the
           image of giving free stuff to poor "welfare queens" etc. and
           the abortion/gays/guns/god stuff. Culturally, John and Teresa
           are out of step with regular people, just the way they talk.
           A guy like Clinton had much better rapport with people.
           \_ Yeah, I also wanted to add "out of touch with the average
              American" to the list.  Remember, it's the perception of
              what a liberal is.  All those freeper posts about how happy
              the libs lost -- they are talking about this image. -op
              \_ bullshit.  the liberals tend to lose because of pussies like
                 you.  do you think that if bush lost, they'd all be sighing
                 on the freeper boards about how their extremist rightwing
                 religious agenda is out of the mainstream?  of course not.
                 they'd be shaking their fists over it, and demanding blood
                 in 2008.
                 \_ Whatever you say man. -op

11/3    Historically, what is the longest duration which we had a
        republican president? what about democratic?
        \_ see
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_president#List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States
        \_ see : http://tinyurl.com/5hna3

11/3    So there was a lot of griping about the BushCo victory on the
        motd and on wall with people threatening to leave the country
        for "friendlier" shores. I was thinking of setting up a fund
        to help our disenfranchised liberals reach that goal, kind of
        like the HELP-US fund a couple years ago to help defray the cost
        of moving people like Alec Baldwin out of the country. Anyone
        interested in helping out? Perhaps we could call it the
        "Alec Baldwin Pledge" fund. Email if interested. I already
        have one person willing to donate. -williamc
        \_ Pretty huffy stuff for somebody who has a Smiths quote in their
           finger file.
        \_ I could find a high-paying job in Canada without your help if
           I wanted, motherfucker. Instead I choose to stay and fight.
           You will fucking taste defeat, and I'll be there to kick sand
           right into the bleeding wounds of your party's dying body
           when it happens.
                \_ Bring It On!
        \_ mmm, I'm going to laugh at anyone that even SUGGESTS that BushCo
           is the Great Uniter.  Here's prime counter example of the sort of
           uniting in action that BushCo instills....
        \_ Ah yes, it's nice to see 'tit-for-tat' schoolyard mentality
           in our nation's scholars.  Well done!
        \_ Ha ha. It's nice to see that the decline of our once great
           country is such a joke to you. Enjoy the tax cuts.
                \_ it's not a joke to him, which is why he's probably
                   setting up such a fund. and it's not that easy
                   to enjoy the tax cut when it's going to bite us in
                   the ass in the future.
                   \_ My kids and grandkids won't be paying for the taxcuts
                      cuz I don't have any.
        \_ Leaving the country now would be like leaving a loved one in the
           presence of a serial rapist because you don't approve of rape.
           I'm here for the long haul, and I'll stop your corporate plunder
           by any means necessary, bitch. --erikred

11/3    High voter turnout was supposed to help Kerry.  We got record
        turnout and voted for Bush.  Ideas?
        \_ Priests telling their congregations that not voting for Bush
           was a sin?
        \- i think strategically locating wedge issues like gay=bad may
           have helped proBUSH turn out, e.g. in OH. i wonder if this
           would have been doable if MA and SF had help off for one yr. --psb
        \_ two reasons. One, the blue states are full of city people
           who don't have time to raise kids. In contrast, the red hick
           states are full of people who have too much time to screw
           around, like their sisters and cousins so they tend to
           out-reproduce the blue population. Point two, the blacks
           were suppose to help out, which they did (90% voted for
           Kerry). But the new Black voter turn-out rate was the lowest
           of all ethnics, which, should not be a surprise given how
           apathetic they have been since the 60s. So who screwed it
           up for Kerry? The damn hicks and the damn niggers.
           \_ so when is P. Diddy going to officially become this country's
              most prolific non-government-sanctioned mass murderer?
           \_ Ya know, where would be without the motd in our lives, to bring
              us wonderful reminders of the power of a University Education?
        \_ the Amish people must have voted for Bush. It is all their
           fault. For the good of the country, we must begin eradication
           of the the filthy Amish population! Hail!
        \_ There was no way that we were going to let Kerry take
           this country away from us and give it to the gays and
           the godless Europeons!

11/3    Why did Kerry have a strong, early exit poll lead?
        - Because while the Democrats were voting during the day, the
        Republicans were working. (bahrump bump)
        \_ Dick Morris (who predicted a Bush win) says it was liberals
           attempting to depress conservative turnout - says it's very hard
           to get an exit poll wrong - you have to work very hard to do it.
        \_ Bush either won for one of 4 different reasons:
           1) Electronic voting machines were rigged (hence the exit poll
                inconsistency in states with EVs)
           2) People really like Bush's policies.
           3) People don't like Bush's policies, but like his "moral compass"
              or whatever
           4) People don't like Bush's policies, but where more scared by
              John Kerry's potential policies.
           For me, order of scariness worst to best: 1,3,2,4

11/3    So, when are the pissed off, desperate liberal extremists
        going to suicide bomb Ohio, Florida, and Texas?
        \_ Well the Unabomber was a Berkeley Liberal...
           \_ He spent two years in Berkeley, and hated liberals
        \_ Remember that it is a crime to threaten the President.
           \_ Who said anything about that?

11/3    Hello, fellow liberals. We have been defeated. I guess we
        might as well as embrace all the things that our conquerers
        would like us embrace.  What's the best way to go about learning
        Christianity, country dancing, guns, Southern food, dating
        hot Southern belles, and other good stuff? -ok thx
        \_ I know you're trying to be funny but there are quite a bit
           of Democrats who are Christian, do country dancing, have a
           hobby in guns, etc... Not all of those things are Republican-
           only things.
              \_ yes and there are good Muslims and bad Christians,
                 that stereotype sucks, blah blah blah. Who cares. The
                 exit poll numbers speak for themselves. If 91% of the
                 Bush supporters value Bush's religion and faith while
                 only 9% of the Kerry supporters value the same thing,
                 then the majority has spoken to us what they really
                 are.
        \_ Learn proper anal intercourse technique.  Southern Belles seem to
           love that shit.
           \_ Hello German John. No Hail for you.
                \_ I would have (a) signed it, and (b) provided an ass link
                   for your convenience.  Bad.  Down.  -John
                   \- south western belle ass link: link:csua.org/u/9rg
        \_ I, for one, welcome our old Republican overlords.
        \_ All us liberals really want now is another Bill Clinton, less
           the hobby of getting blow jobs from interns.
           the predisposition of getting blow jobs from interns.

11/3    Is the motd liberal, conservative, libertarian or moderate?
        \_ All of the above?
           \_ seconded.
              \_ in general, what is the trend?
                 \_ liberal
                    \_ That might be true of CSUA in general, but I don't think
                       it's true of the motd specifically anymore.
        \_ knee-jerk.  -John

11/3    GW Bush gives one to all you liberals: -troll
        http://www.gwpda.org/tomorrow/bushsuckerpunch.gif
        \_ This was in the media a while ago.
           \_ Yeah, and I'm the one who posted it to motd several months ago.
              I thought it was relevant to today's result. -op/troll
              \_ Yeah that's true.
        \_ This is great! This is exactly what I walled about, let's make
           it happen!

11/3    Bush and Cheney are probably laughing right now and thinking,
        "Those idiots, we fucked them and they still voted for us, god
        bless America! Is this a great country or what?"
              \-Eh Eh Eh
        \_ you know this is not the case.
           \_ How so? They really fucked America for good during the
              last 4 years. Pocketed most of the billions of surplus
              into their own and supporter's hands. Dragged us into a
              war that was based on a proven lie which they knew from
              the beginning. But hey, once you are in war, what can
              you do?  Created far more potential terrorists than any
              president in history. Alienated us from the rest of the
              world (use the UN when it fit our agenda, fuck them when
              they don't. Heck, why do we even have laws, why don't we
              all just take justice into our own hands. Fuck the
              police). And the best part is, they successfully
              convince the average American that getting a blow job is
              a far worst crime than killing thousands of innocent
              lives for greed and money. But hey, Bush is dumb and
              strongly believes what he's doing (unlike the
              flip-flopper), just like your typical dumb Republican
              rednecks. It's sad but Bin Ladin really does have a good
              cause, because people that run a country like a greedy
              blood sucking company need to be killed, period.
              \_ I think you just contradicted yourself.  If Bush really
                 believes in what he's doing, and believes his rhetoric,
                 then he's not laughing at us.
              \_ And I was called a ranty bigot in the motd -eric
              \_ What, Nooo... No elitism here...

11/3    A logical plan for secession: http://house.style.net/usa.jpg
        \_ "God Bless Our Gra-cious Queen ......"
        \_ Looks like Iowa will go to Jesusland instead of USC.
n       \_ At first glance I thought the green part reads "Jerusaland".
        \_ At first glance I thought the green part reads "Jerusaland".
        \_ We'll have to get rid of that "we stand on God for thee" part. -tom
        \_ Ah yes. We should ethically cleanse the rednecks out of Indiana
           and Ohio first though. We don't want to drive through Jesusland to
           get to Michigan. We could let them have half of Indiana... they
           need the Brickyard for their NASCAR activities.
        \_ Your man lost.  Get over it.  Keep in mind that CA voted 55/45, not
           100/0.
           \_ Well, keep in mind your man won by only about 150k votes in
              Ohio, so let's not all kid ourselves.

11/3    How come every picture of Kerry and Edwards in the media today looks
        like they're about to kiss?
        \_ GARRAIGE!

11/3    I guess Canada is the place for Liberals who like an unbiased
        media...
        http://www.filibustercartoons.com/archive.php?id=20041025
        \_ Duh, Dubya is clearly bad.  There's just no arguing it.
           Stolen Honor is about what Kerry did 30-40 years ago, and people
           are still arguing about Vietnam.
           Stolen Honor is about what Kerry did 30-40 years ago, and
           people are still arguing about Vietnam.
           \_ LOL!

11/3    I'm seeing an argument around the net today that seems strangely
        compelling.  I think the most viable argument for blue states may
        be to start arguing strongly for federalism and states rights.
        The red states can have their theocracies, so long as they don't
        interfere with what the blue states want for themselves.  Less
        centralized federal government, less transfer of resources between
        states, and more equitable distribution of federal resources such
        as they would be constituted.  It would be a very uphill battle, but
        it strikes me as the only rational response.  What's really scary
        is that this is precisely the argument that led to the Civil War.
        \_ Do you even understand what you're saying?  It is only a strong
           Federal system that allowed the Civil Rights Movement to break  the
           evil (D)emocratic South/KKK.  It is only a strong Federal system
           that allows a poorly written legal opinion like Roe v. Wade to make
           abortion a nation wide right instead of each State being allowed to
           decide the issue for itself.  Same thing for a number of other
           issues I'm sure are close to your heart such as environmental laws,
           work place protection, health standards, OSHA, etc.  Calm down, stop
           reading the net for a week and *think* about what you're saying.
           Stop *feeling*.
        \_ good luck. Bush said he's gonna screw stem cell research,
           reduce abortion, and use YOUR tax money on programs like
           abstenence in public schools. And I pledge allegiance
           to the United States, under God...
           \_ The sheer horror of a reduced numbers of abortions, abstinence
              instead of random sex, and only 25 million in FED. FUNDED
              embryonic stem cells.  What is this country coming to?
        \_ Yay, decentralization, ho!  Maybe those crazy libertarians aren't
           as evil as they seem. -- ilyas
           \_ Most people don't think libertarians are evil or stupid.  They
              think they just oversimplify things.  Often, to simplify is
              to falsify.
           \_ I never thought they were evil, just a little naive.  Am I
              making a libertarian argument here?  I'm not arguing that the
              individual states should be libertarian - I'm sure the reds
              would want plenty of authoritarian power over people's personal
              lives, and I can imagine some blues wanting more socialized
              medicine etc. etc.  More power to them.  But it is clear that
              this nation is coming unglued, and we need to reach an
              equitable compromise.  The California stem cell law (which was
              flawed and which I opposed for various reasons) is one example
              of what could be possible.
              \_ Your argument is driven by practical considerations, but at
                 its core, and driven to its logical conclusion, it is
                 a libertarian argument.  If you have your way and the
                 federal gvt loses its former prominence, what's to stop
                 the recursion from proceeding further?  What if some
                 besieged county decides it wants more local power from
                 the state gvt, etc.  Libertarians are very happy to
                 see power localize in the communities. -- ilyas
              \_ I think your historical appreciation of US politics is
                 lacking.
                 \_ Prepare to be deported to Jesusland.
                 \_ Elaborate.
              \_ I think it's pretty obvious the Dems can't handle being
                 out of power.  Dems have controlled congress for, what,
                 50-100 years?  Now that power has shifted you're all
                 running around screaming about how the world is going to
                 end if we don't put you back in power.  Newsflash:
                 Democrat != Ruling Elite.  When Dem's were in power,
                 centalized goverment was good, now it's bad.  Go fig.
                 \_ Wow.  You're so partisan it's a little sickening.
                    NEITHER party wants to be out of power and both will
                    kick and scream like a stuck pig when deprived.
                    Attributing that to D as though it's unique to them and
                    sets them apart from R is just silly.  You've really
                    not been paying attention outside of the Rightwing echo
                    chambers/spin machine if you think it can be so easily
                    reduced to that.  I think mainly it's not about being
                    out of power as it's about a damaged, morally bankrupt
                    presidency that really has almost NOTHING in 4 years
                    that it can point to as a success.  This is what got
                    reelected.  Once the emotion dies down, and all the
                    recriminations and stupid gloating ease back, what's
                    going to be found is that D couldn't field a candidate
                    that had appeal to anyone other than other D's....which
                    led to a less ideal presidency being reelected since
                    the opposing view was unable to field anything better.
                    It's emarrassing for the D's, but really has little to
                    do with your infantile and absurdly facile 'analysis'.
                    Rise above your party's spin, kid -- that's what your
                    education is supposed help you with; critical reasoning
                    skills.
                   \_ "Kid" funny insult from a guy who can't even
                       remember back to 1995.
                       \_ Your contentless reply only goes to confirm my
                          opinion of you.  Here, have a lollipop.
                 \_ Did I say I was a Democrat?  I'm concerned about the
                    divide in the country and ways to solve it.
                    \_ I never said you were.
                       \_ Actually, your post rather strongly implied that.
                          \_ Your post strongly implied you were.  So
                             we're even.
                             \_ Uhm, seeing as you're replying to my first
                                post to this subthread, I'm forced to conclude
                                that you're an imbecile.
                                \_ Because you sign your post so everyone
                                   knows when YOU'RE posting huh?
                                   \_ Okay, fine.  We're BOTH imbeciles.
                                      \_ yeah.
                                         \_ Well, good!

11/3    The last battle of Vietnam War was fought, and it
        was a complete victory. Bravo Zulu!

11/3    google challenge: text of john edward's concession speech.
        i found kerry's no problem, but can't find edwards

11/3    Anyone have a user id for democraticunderground so I can lurk?
        They shut down the forums again.  Thanks.

11/3    Nice.  Election leads to Longest Motd EVAR!
        soda [2] cat /etc/motd.public | wc
            1279   10939   70798

11/3    We underestimated rednecks. Now what?
        \_ No -- we chose a candidate that no R or conservative would EVER
           vote for.  Time to start playing a smarter game in the primaries.
           \_ I pray the Dems put up someone reasonable next time, and I
              pray the Republicans can get someone better than Bush.
              But they probably learned the wrong lesson. -voted for Bush.
              \_ I suspect the R can't put up Cheney in 08, so who then?
                 McCain or Powell, I'd vote for (as a D/I).  Frist?  Lord,
                 I hope not.  If all D can put forward is Obama or La Clinta,
                 then it's going to be a pretty one sided race.

11/3    So after all that political advertisements, guess who the real
        winner is? MEDIA COMPANIES. They are like the arms dealer, getting
        rich from both sides. And now that Bush wins a second term, all
        the media corporations will be aligned to the current admin.
        My guess is that the Democratic party will bicker and disintegrate
        in a few years while the one party US will just get bigger and
        bigger. Maybe it'll implode, but that'll not happen for
        many years to come.                     -troll rant dude