Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:29 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2004/10/29 [Health/Skin] UID:34424 Activity:high
10/29   Can anyone recommend a good dermatologist in the south bay or
        peninsula?
        \_ Just wait until after nov 2nd, it'll be ok
        \_ Who ya gonna call? Ghostbusters! - 555-2368
           \_ Somethin' strange ... in the neigh-bor-hood ...
        \_ why? need help? - turin
        \_ Dr. Recht (Sunnyvale) is excellent http://csua.org/u/9pq
           (I assume that was Dermatologist originally) - actual helpfulness
2004/10/29 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:34425 Activity:nil
10/28   Gulliver's travails: The U.S. in the post-Cold-War world
        http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/oct04/osull.htm
        Yearning to be liked
        http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/nov02/derby.htm
2004/10/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34426 Activity:moderate
10/28   http://bakedbeaver.com/bushfighterpilot.html
        Bush wants to be a fighter pilot again for Halloween.
        \_ Lame
2004/10/29 [Uncategorized] UID:34427 Activity:nil
10/28   So, who was it that said Soda as a dual Xeon machine would melt
        itself through the machine room's walls?  100% CPU usage, in a
        room-temperature environment; the processors stay under 60c.
2004/10/29 [Uncategorized] UID:34428 Activity:moderate
10/28   Conan O'Brien on IT Support
        http://chintan.net/conan.wmv
        \_ jyesh
2004/10/29 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:34429 Activity:insanely high 54%like:34477
10/29   hi all. I'm going to Florida. thought you might be interested in
        following along from home...
        http://csua.berkeley.edu/~rory
        \_ I salute you, and wish you luck. --scotsman
        \_ Thanks.  This could actully be useful.
           \_ I'm jealous. I didn't have free cash or vacation enough to
              go to FL. I'm spending election day in Reno, instead. You'll
              definitely be warmer. -- ulysses
              \_ You campaigning? I am hooking up with half a dozen old
                 Chateauvians to campaign in Las Vegas. -ausman
        \_ I'm going to Florida too.  Finally putting law school to good use.
           -- cathyg
           \_ How exactly?
           \_ Are you part of Litigate the Vote 2004?
           \_ As a minority, I'm being disenfranchised because I'm not able to
              register a vote that counts in the Presidential elections.  Will
              you file a suit on my behalf?  I'm a California Republican.  :-)
              \_ Mmm.  Utter bullshit.  If your complaint is with the electoral
                 college, say so.  That you're in the minority does not mean
                 you're disenfranchised. --scotsman
                 \_ Geez.  He even put a smilie on the end.  Sometimes a
                    joke is just a joke.
                    \_ Some things just aren't funny.  Deal.
                    \_ It might be funny if disenfranchisement wasn't an
                       actual problem.
                       \_ Wow, get a sense of humor.  I'll sell you one for
                          less than the price of a Starbuck's.
              \_ Have you actually heard of intimidation or vote-supression
                 against Republicans in CA or are you just being an ass?
                 \_ Re-read his post and try again, moron. -!pp
                    \_ I considered he just meant that R-votes for pres. in CA
                       didn't mean anything in CA but figured trolling was much
                       more likely.
                       \_ IT. WAS. A. JOKE.  I'm selling the other guy a sense
                          of humor.  You get one at half price.
              \_ How can you be a Californian and still a Republican?
                 \_ I can totally see it.  The Republican party is a decent
                    organization by political standards; it's just the few at
                    the top who are cheating the party out of its decent name.
                 \_ How can you be an American and still be a Democrat?
2004/10/29 [Computer/Domains, Computer/Networking, Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:34430 Activity:nil
10/29   Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics:
        Even if you win, you're still retarded.
        \_ Is that why you're so good at it?
           \_ MATT DAMON!
        \_ At least some of us know the difference between the internet and
           motd.
           \_ You're sitting in the lounge or something?
2004/10/29 [Uncategorized] UID:34431 Activity:nil
10/29   The situation report from Oz (after the fall of the wicked witch):
        http://mcsweeneys.net/2004/10/29warner.html
2004/10/29 [Uncategorized] UID:34432 Activity:nil
10/29   Some friends of mine who use Thunderbird (and dial-up) would like a
        feature to "prompt to send unsent messages before exiting".
        Is there a "feature request" form for Thinderbird anywhere?
2004/10/29 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:34433 Activity:nil
10/29   Via JoelOnSoftware: pretty cool standards-based HTML slide show format
        http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5
2004/10/29 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:34434 Activity:nil
10/29   Any speculation on Sony's PSP as a media player?  I could see Sony
        reissuing a bunch of their movies on UMD, but I can't imagine there
        will be a way to convert your DVDs or other video sources to a format
        the PSP can use because of Sony's fixation on piracy.
        \_ There's no reason it can't make a fine DVD player, especially
           chipped.  To be honest, I'd rather consider a Mini-ITX box
           booting from a CF card, than a game console that I happen to be
           able to play some movies/CDs on.  -John
           \_ PSP = Play Station Portable, a handheld which uses a cartridged
              disk called UMD, not a DVD (different sizes).
2004/10/29 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34435 Activity:nil
10/29   Go Drudge!  Go Drudge #1 Fan!
        http://csua.org/u/9pw
2004/10/29-30 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:34436 Activity:kinda low
10/29   Aaaagh! Engage fetal position! http://csua.org/u/9px
        \_ This sort of thing has been going on for some time now.  Remember
           http://www.gcn.com/archives/gcn/1998/july13/cov2.htm ?
           Also, for some insight into software buying decisions in the UK
           and their ramifications, do a search for 'national police computer'
           or NPC.  -John
           \_ Yes, I remember that story, the best quote by far is:
              "Although Unix is more reliable", Redman said, "NT may become
               more reliable with time.".  What the fuck?
           \_ This gives a whole new meaning to the term "blue screen of death".
              One can imagine a Windows general protection fault in conjunction
              with icbms being accidently launched due someone accidently
              downloading MyDoom onto the computer. Wow, I guess The Terminator
              was a documentary after all...
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:34437 Activity:high
10/29   Do we have any motd archives going back to the 80s?
        \_ I *used* to have some, but moved them to
           /csua/tmp/mehlhaff/motd_archive, and then some idiot went and
           cleaned out all 'old' files from /csua/tmp.  I might have offsite
           backups, but dont want to pullthem backup if they're just going to
           get deleted again.  -EricM
           \_ Given that quite a few people seem to be running motd archivers,
              I think it's a safe bet that they'd stay around somewhere, and
              it'd be a really cool thing to have.  -John
           \_ would have been interesting to compare the political battle:
                Reagan vs. Carter, Reagan vs. Mondale (?)
                \_ I just looked up election week from 1996, and it was all
                   about random technical shit.  The motd, like the country
                   in general, has never been this divided, politicized,
                   on angry.
                        \_ where is this located?
                           \_ Past ennui, make a left at disgruntled,
                              frustrated despair will be on your right.
                              If you hit blind rage, you've gone too far.
                              \_ You mean like aaron?
                        \_ Most of the alumni who post on the motd
                           and wall about political junk were still
                           in school in 1996 and were too busy studying
                           and worrying about graduating to waste
                           time w/ political non-sense.
                \_ Reagan vs. Carter: There wouldn't be much discussion.
                   Carter was an utter disaster for this country.  If you were
                   old enough to remember you wouldn't even consider that a
                   debate.  Carter is now running around certifying stolen
                   elections for his socialist pals in South America.  The man
                   Carter was an utter disaster for this country.  If
                   you were old enough to remember you wouldn't even
                   consider that a debate.  Carter is now running
                   around certifying stolen elections for his
                   socialist pals in South America.  The man
                   is a disgrace.
        \_ The world-writeable-motd didn't exist in the 80's.
2004/10/29-30 [Uncategorized] UID:34438 Activity:moderate
10/29   Why do we have to nuke?
        \_ 'Cos we're morons.
        \_ Same reasons as why we have fingernails, stones, spears, arrows,
           swords, guns, bombs, cannons.
           \_ Uhm, to help us climb and grip our prey (or tools)?  To attract
              a mate when painted?
              \_ I don't know about you, but purely statistically speaking,
                 I have attracted far more mates when I was not painted than
                 when I was painted.  I am not entirely sure what to infer
                 from this observation, but I am led to assume that it has
                 something to do with the possibility that most women prefer
                 nice shirts & slacks to purple body paint.  -John
2004/10/29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:34439 Activity:kinda low
10/29   Fine.  You want to censor.  It's done.  Anything even remotely
        political is gone.
        \_ There goes all the technical stuff! go fuck yourself!
        \_ want some cheese with your whine?
        \_ Please tell me you're reacting to acutal censorship and not somebody
           simply overwriting your posts.
           \_ Of course he's not.  No one at the time was paying attention to
              overwriting.
           \_ It seems lately that there is very little actual censorship, but
              lots of lazy clobbering of other people's posts.  I'm not
              counting "nukes" as censorship, which I guess is arguable.
              \_ So are you saying that people are deleting entire threads, or
                 or are you saying that some of your posts have gone missing
                 and you're sure it wasn't simply overwriting? Please reflect.
        \_ Like, ohmygawd.  Like I posted, and then 10 seconds later my
           post was gonE!1!  I'm, like, totally being oppressed!
           \_ OMG, it's ilyas!!
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic] UID:34440 Activity:nil
10/29   Does anyone think that there will be a clear winner the night
        of the election, (i.e. by midnight- west coast time)?
        \_ Zogby intimated as much on the Daily Show, and then pointed out that
           large numbers of people on both sides are prepared to reject an
           unclear winner.
                \_ Ok, follow up question: do you think if the post-election
                   situation resembles the last one where the supreme court
                   could intervene, do you think they will? Or have they
                   learned yet that they were hated?
        \_ With any luck.
        \_ No.  I think this election will be more murky than those in third-
           world countries.
2004/10/29-31 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:34441 Activity:kinda low
10/29   Okay, I give up. spamassassin is just too broken to use. Anyone
        got an ifile "how to use on soda" FAQ?
        \_ /csua/tmp/ifile_tutorial
           \_ http://soda.csua.berkeley.edu% more /csua/tmp/ifile.rerelearn.message
              /csua/tmp/ifile.rerelearn.message: Permission denied
        \_ I don't understand your problem.  I'm using SA with all default
           settings and it works fine.  The only thing I've done is whitelist
           and blacklist a few specific addresses.  This is user error.
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34442 Activity:nil
10/29   Osama bin Laden:  "It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief
        of the country [Bush] would leave 50,000 citizens in the two towers to
        face those horrors alone ... because he thought listening to a child
        discussing her goats was more important. ... Your security is not in
        the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. ... To the U.S. people, my
        talk is to you about the best way to avoid another disaster. ... I
        tell you: security is an important element of human life and free
        people do not give up their security. ... If Bush says we hate
        freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. It
        is known that those who hate freedom do not have dignified souls, like
        those of the 19 blessed ones ... We fought you because we are free ...
        and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our
        security we undermine yours."
        \_ it would be funny if osama came out with a tape blaming
           the wtc crashes on jews pilotting the planes filled with
           defenseless arabs.
        \_ Kerry using bin Laden to gain votes?
           \_ You partisan spinning must be topping 10k rpms.  Take a step back
              and try to get some perspective here.
           \_ Uhhh....huh?
              \_ The very first sentence "It never occurred ...... was more
                 important" sounds like Kerry.
                 \_ This is a translation.  Comparing speaking style in
                    different languages is not easy.
           \_ Bush using fear to gain votes?
        \_ Is there a full or even partial transcript URL?  I'd like to read
           the whole thing or at least as much as is out there.  Or was this
           the whole thing?  Thanks.
        \_ Isn't it great that Osama Bin Laden is irrefutably accepting
           responsibility for the attacks now that Muslims don't have to
           cling to that Jews-did-it conspiracy story anymore, since the
           whole world hates our guts anyways?
           \_ It was a Jewish actor masquerading as Osama.  It's a devious
              plot to pin blame on Islam.
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:34443 Activity:low
10/29   So what happens if you're in a swing state, and you're still in line
        to vote at 8pm?  Do you still get to vote, or do they turn everyone
        away, or is their mass confusion as conflicting orders to stop and
        continue trickle down from local government and TV?
        \_ John Ashcroft personally comes and puts you in jail indefinitely.
        \_ Martial law is established and the race wars begin.
        \_ I have worked the polls before, so I know the answer. One of
           the poll workers comes out, eyeballs the last person in line
           and tells them: "You will be the last person voting. Please
           tell everyone who shows up after you that the polls are closed."
           They come out a few minutes later to make sure he has not
           ignored or misunderstood you.
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:34444 Activity:high
10/29   Capitalism magazine, the bastion of randian objectivism, is apparently
        as split over the US election as the rest of the country.  I found that
        somehow amusing.  Some of the folks there are making reasonable
        game theoretic arguments for why a randy ought to vote for Kerry.
          -- ilyas
          \_ If you mean "randian" in context of Ayn Rand (never heard it used
             like this before) then Capitalism magazine is just plain wrong.
             A true "randian" would either A) not bother to vote or B) vote
             for himself.
             \_ Not that I am a huge fan of Ayn Rand, but you don't understand
                Randians at all.  I said 'randian objectivism' to differentiate
                from other kinds of objectivism (i.e. technical terms in lit
                crit, philosophy, etc) -- ilyas
             \_ I just had the very amusing experience of looking at
                http://www.rand.org to find out if Rand had written anything about
                elections in her time, and was amazed at how non-wingnut it
                was...until I realized it was the wrong rand!
                \_ yes, the Rand Corporation is a serious, professional
                   consulting organization
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34445 Activity:moderate
10/29   Bin Laden speaks out right before the election. Is that going
        to help or hurt our great President of the United States?
        This can't help, but I'm not an pigfucking inbred moronic loser:
        "It appeared to him (Bush) that a little girl's talk about her goat
         and its butting was more important than the planes and their butting
         of the skyscrapers. That gave us three times the required time to
         carry out the operations, thank God," he said.
        \_ Hurts Dubya.  He didn't nail Osama and Osama is laughing at him.
        \_ you guys realize that the Democrats are sheltering Bin Laden
           for the purpose of winning the election right?  -conservative
           \_ How's that koolaid tonight?
           \_ Are you serious?  Who is the "Commander in Chief" right now?
        \_ Bin Laden is taunting Bush, but also trying to persuade
           Americans to vote for Kerry. So the question is: Why would
           bin Laden want Kerry as President?
           \_ http://andrewsullivan.com
              But why release a tape just before the elections? The obvious
              impact will be to help Bush. Any reminder of the 9/11 attacks
              will provoke a national rallying to the commander-in-chief. The
              deep emotional bond so many of us formed with the president back
              then is Bush's strongest weapon in this election, and OBL has
              just revived it. The real October Surprise turned out not to be
              OBL's capture (sorry, Teresa!) but OBL's resilience. I have a
              feeling that this will tip the election decisively toward the
              incumbent. A few hours ago, I thought Kerry was headed for
              victory. Now I think the opposite. I also have a sinking feeling
              that that was entirely bin Laden's objective.
              \_ I don't think criticism of Bush is meant to help Bush
                 win. How the heck do you draw that conclusion?
                 \_ Let's see... "Any reminder of the 9/11 attacks
                    will provoke a national rallying to the commander-in-chief.
                    The deep emotional bond so many of us formed with the
                    president back then is Bush's strongest weapon in this
                    election, and OBL has just revived it."  Just a random
                    guess of Andrew Sullivan's thinking, of course.
                    \_ There is a good rebuttal to this ridiculous line of
                       thinking right on his own web site.
                    \_ It's total bs-- up til now Bush could probably claim that
                       Osama was buried in a cave somehow.  It's not good for
                       Kerry, but it's definitely bad for Bush.
              \_ He might be right, but Osama is pretty nuts, and his
                 understanding of American phychology is sketchy at best.
                 Who can tell what he's thinking?
                 \_ Derka Derka Derka?
        \_ So much for the tin-foil-hat brigade saying we had him in custody
           and Bush was saving him for the Oct. surprise.
           \_ "Bin Laden" is a computer program in a pakistani movie
              studio.  The kurds will release Bin Laden (in a daring US
              Army Raid) on monday.
           \_ There's still 3 days.
2004/10/29-30 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:34446 Activity:very high
10/29   So I'm curious about the US Policy. Why doesn't the US simply
        leave other countries alone? I mean, the world has a lot of
        internal problems relating to food, money, civil war, etc.
        Why can't we just leave them alone? Is it all about money and
        oil? Is it about reconstruction companies? Loan corporations?
        \_ Because our country works under a set of ideals and principles
           (or at least, it's supposed to, silly me) that a lot of people look
           up to.  There is much murder & mayhem & badness in the world, and
           we are the strong kid on the playground, you know, the one with the
           power to put the bully in his place.  I am morally revolted
           and ashamed as an American about some of the things "we" do, but
           more so about much of what we leave undone.  -John
        \_ Because isolation doesn't work, stupid. Because the world
           is more interconnected than ever before. Because what
           happens in one part of the world can have adverse affects
           on the rest of us. C'mon, get with the program here buddy,
           it's a world economy, and things like the environment,
           energy, social welfare are GLOBAL problems. Were you
           asleep during World History 101?
        \_ Not to mention that we need to the rest of the world's
           resources to support our level of consumption.
           \_ This is very true.  Consumption per head in the US is higher than
              in most other industrialized countries.
        \_ Let's take post-WWII.  A lot of countries were turning Communist.
           The rationale was that, unless the U.S. did something, the whole
           world was going to turn Communist, there would be Communist
           sympathizers in the U.S., and they would foment a revolution, and
           then you wouldn't have Mom and Apple Pie anymore.
           \_ Let's take post USSR. Everyone turns to capitalism. The
              corporation has unprecedented power over the government.
              The presence of US is felt everywhere in the world,
              restricting freedom for the rulers of the other countries.
              Unless the world did something, the US would have
              no opposition and could do whatever it pleases.
              \_ you know your post would be taken a lot more seriously if
                 your writing was coherent and didn't sound like random babbling
                 \_ Made perfect sense to me!  America, fuck yeah!
              \_ freedom for the rulers? isn't freedom for the people of other
                 countries what's important here?
              \_ Yeah, we're "restricting" freedom, just like the Taliban
                 did for women and the right to education. Yeah, we made
                 Cisco put filters like the Chinese did. Yeah, we're the
                 bad guys.
        \_ Because whitey is a proto-rapist penile-centric arch bigot
           who wants to impregnate all the nubile brown women and kill all
           whales and hurt the creatures of the forest.
           Come on already you need to brush up on your Marx.
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Science/GlobalWarming] UID:34447 Activity:moderate
10/29   You know I actually agree with what Osama said. Our security is
        in our own hands, and while it may make some difference
        between who we pick as our leaders, our actions aboard is the
        direct consequence of why we suffered 911. And unless we
        fundamentally change the way we deal with the rest of the
        world, we will never be safe. Competition and survival of the
        fittest is good and all that, but we shouldn't take it to the
        extreme that the other side simply can't survive. If we want
        to be the world police, then we need to do so using a more
                        \_ America, fuck yeah!
        balanced approach.
        \_ you may want to rethink your use of the word "consequence"
        \_ Why do you hate America?
        \_ I agree too. America's streets will run red with the blood of
           infidels, God willing. America has held the world under its
           merciless boot-heel for so long, it's too late for redemption.
        \_ The problem is that there's always someone feeling oppressed in
           the world, it doesn't matter how nice you are.  There are also
           a lot of people who are just jealous and always want to "take
           down the big guy a peg or two."
           \_ Nobody hates Sweden, or the Swiss or the Dutch. It is possible
              to have material wealth without stomping on others.
              \_ Dude, people hate the swiss, even I know that.  And, uh,
                 the germans. -- ilyas
                 \_ Why do you hate CERN?
              \_ These are very small countries. It is easy to maintain a
                 high standard of living with such a small populace
                 without pissing off too many people.
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34448 Activity:nil
10/29   Bush and Kerry respond to Bin Laden.
        http://csua.org/u/9q8
        % cat bush_quotes_from_article | wc -w
                46
        % cat kerry_quotes_from_article | wc -w
                128
2004/10/29-30 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:34449 Activity:very high
10/29   C++ is so freaking BROKEN.  Augh!
        \_ Just use C.
           \_ Would if I could.
        \_ No, you are.  C++ works just fine, and far better than C for many
           purposes.
           \_ C vs. C++.  FIGHT!!!
           \_ True, it's better than C for many purposes, but at the very
              least it has some serious lexing/syntax issues.
              \_ Most of the warts stem from backwards compatibility with C
                 (primarily integer promotion, operator precendence, etc.).
                 \_ Bull... Shit... Things which are broken in C++:
                    Confusing Scoping Operators
                    Confusing auto creation vs. explicit instantiation of objects.
                    Confusing auto creation vs. explicit instantiation of
                      objects.
                    Ability to overload things like new.
                    Ability to do crappy stuff like delete this.
                    Multiple Inheritance
                    Friends (god, wtf was Bjarne thinking?)
                    Sticking classes in .h files.
                    Templates (good idea, but crap implementation).
                    STL was too damn late in coming so nobody uses it.
                    Language is too frickin' big.
                    We should've adopted Objective C over C++. C++ is just
                    a dog of a language. Just take a look at MFC and its mess.
                    \_ cs61b got you down?  I've actually seen alot of the
                       stuff on your list used in VERY effective ways.  Most of
                       your complaints sound like the things newbies whine
                       about.  Train harder, grasshopper.
                    \_ A lot of the things you list are not broken.  Just
                       because something is confusing to _you_ does not make
                       it 'broken.'  Just because something is an advanced
                       feature for which you see no use (overloading new) does
                       not make it broken.  However, I will agree that C++ is
                       combining too many worlds in a poor and inelegant way.
                       Still, I have to respect it in that you CAN get work
                       done in it. -- ilyas
                       done in it.  We would not have been better off with
                       ObjC over C++, though ObjC is certainly a much
                       smaller language.  One reason is, ObjC uses essentially
                       the smalltalk object system, which is not suitable for
                       many systemy kinds of programming. -- ilyas
                       P.S.  My favorite MFC moment is seeing stuff like:
                       template <class T> class Foo : public T { ... }
                       \_ This is typically called a shim class.  And?
                          \_ There is no and.  I just find the idiom amusing.
                    \_ You learned Java before C++ right?  It's hard to move to
                       a real language after playing with toys for a while.
                       I've used all the above features well, and use STL
                       heavily.  (You didn't even mention streams.  Amateur.)
                    \_ Actually, I was thinking more of obvious stuff like
                       the << and >> template problems, and the fact that
                       :: is both the namespace separator and the name for
                       the "global namespace." (Which becomes a problem
                       when the C++ lexer throws away whitespace...) -op
                       \_ How is :: the "name" for the global namespace?
                          If it were, then you'd access globals by ::::foo,
                          yes?  Isn't the "name" for the global namespace
                          epsilon (nothing)?  :: is always a namespace
                          separator.
                          \_ Sorry I didn't state it in explicit theory
                             terms, but it amounts to the same thing.  If
                             you want to specify the global namespace, you
                             begin the identifier name with ::.  ie
                             ::foo:bar.  I was just using the same
                                  \_ A single colon is not a namespace
                                     separator.  Did you mean ::foo::bar?  Are
                                     you sure you're programming in C++?
                             terminology used in a C++ book I read a
                             while ago.  It maybe have been Bjarne, but I
                             can't remember exactly.
                             \_ Errr, read the post above you again.  pp is
                                exactly right. -- ilyas
                                \_ Errr.. read my post again, I agreed
                                   with him.
                             \_ Right.  This works just like Unix pathnames --
                                foo/bar is a relative path, and /foo/bar is an
                                absolute path.  What problems does it create?
                                Yes, >> in templates is stupid.
                                \_ I just had this experiance, if you have
                                   2 identifiers in a row, ie "id1 id2",
                                   and you try to force the global id2,
                                   C++ throws out the white space, so
                                   instead of having two identifiers, you
                                   get 1 big identifier "id1::id2", which,
                                   of course, it can't find.
                                   \_ That doesn't even make sense.  White
                                      space separates tokens.  I don't think
                                      you know what you're talking about.
                                      \_ Maybe it's only true in gcc 3.4,
                                         go ahead and try it.
                                         \_ I don't have access to gcc 3.4 (nor
                                            do I want it).  That sounds like a
                                            bug in a compiler, not a language
                                            flaw.
                                         \_ It doesn't make sense, and you
                                            haven't provided enough instruction
                                            about how to reproduce it.  What
                                            do you mean "have two identifiers"
                                            in a row?  When would that be legal
                                            at all?  In what context?  How
                                            about some real code?
                                            \_ If you like:
                                #include <iostream>

                                class B { };

                                class A {
                                 public:
                                  B foo();
                                };

                                B ::A::foo() {
                                  std::cout << "Hello" << std::endl;
                                  return B();
                                }

                                int main() {

                                  A a;
                                  a.foo();
                                  return 0;
                                }

        fails with this error:
        test.cc:11: error: `class B::A' has not been declared
        test.cc:11: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of `foo' with no type
                        \_ But you shouldn't need to have (or be expected to
                           have) the global namespace qualifier in A::foo's
                           definition anyway.  How about an example where it's
                           actually a problem?  The scoping operator (::) does
                           need to discount whitespace, because otherwise you
                           wouldn't be able to break apart really::really::
                           long::lines.
                           \_ The case where I ran into this as a "real
                              problem" spanned multiple files and
                              thousands of lines of code.  So I contrived
                              an example.  I'm pretty sure that's a normal
                              thing to do.
                              \_ Explain how.  C++ doesn't allow nested
                                 functions, so you either define functions
                                 in global scope or within a namespace.
                                 If you're already in global scope, you
                                 don't need the leading ::.  If you're not
                                 in global scope, why are you defining a
                                 function in one namespace from within another?
                                 \_ And inablilty to explicitly declare a
                                    function in global scope doesn't
                                    strike you as a little wierd?  Even if
                                    it is usually unnecessary?  I never
                                    said I couldn't do something else.  I
                                    did something else and it worked, that
                                    doesn't mean this isn't bad design.
                                    \_ And it doesn't strike you as weird that
                                       you want to do something like:

                                        class A {
                                          void f();
                                        };

                                        namespace foo {
                                           void ::A::f() { }
                                        }

                                       ?  I mean, really.  Even if you could
                                       do it, you're just making your own
                                       code more unmaintainable by defining
                                       functions where they don't belong.
                                    \_ I think you must be using non-C++
                                       concepts and trying to for them into
                                       C++.  By the same token, you can't take
                                       English idioms and translate them word-
                                       for-word into Spanish.
                                       \_ Most of my work is research
                                          outside the concepts of any
                                          language.  SO yeah.
                                    \_ No, it doesn't seem weird.  Most
                                       lexically-scoped languages allow things
                                       to be declared only in the current
                                       scope.
                                       \_ Maybe so, but in C++ you have to
                                          define methods explicity in a
                                          namespace, but you can't
                                          expicitly declare the namespace.
                                          Perhaps you could argue that
                                          it's just an unfortuate mix of
                                          C++ features, but that's bad
                                          design isn't it?
                                          \_ What do you mean?  You don't
                                             have to define methods explicitly
                                             in a namespace (you put them
                                             within a "namespace ns { ... }"
                                             block).  And how is that not
                                             explicitly declaring the namespace
                                             itself?  And no, it's not a bad
                                             design.  Have you not noticed that
                                             you alone seem to be the only
                                             person who has any issues with
                                             this?  Sane programs written
                                             properly won't have these issues.
                    \_ Let's all switch to http://digitalmars.com/d
                       \_ BCPL is the STANDARD!
2004/10/29-11/1 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:34450 Activity:high
10/29   Election bet (turnout, %pop-KE, %pop-BC, Winner's Electoral Count)
        120M, 52, 48, 306 --scotsman
        \_ is this from anywhere or just a motd prediction?
           \_ motd prediction
        \_ with BC still winning?
           \_ I'm not _that_ prescient.
        \_ 105M, 48.4 (GL), 47.9, 271-266 (BC over GL) -- 2k numbers
        \_ 125M, 48, 49, 273-265 (KE over BC)
           \_ With 125M, you think the popular vote will go to bush?
        \_ 115M, 50, 49, 271 (bc over ke)     -mice
           \_ Ilya, you overwrote mice.
              \_ sorry.
                 \_ This is actually easy to avoid if you have even a little
                    interest in being courteous.
                    \_ Far be it from me to nudge people in a more enlightened
                       direction, but perhaps your energies would be better
                       spent reeducating the countless motd assholes who
                       delete active threads, sign other people's names,
                       spew low-grade anonymous bile, and countless other
                       spew low-grade anonymous bile, and do countless other
                       things that make the motd our favorite world-writable
                       file.  But no, it's much more important to moralize
                       me and my editor. -- ilyas
                       \_ Because it's easy to be courteous in this way --
                          it costs only a little time.  If even the easy
                          things to correct are out of reach, then what hope
                          is there for the more pathological things?  Esp in
                          the crowd that purports to care...
                          \_ Ok, friend, tell you what.  I consider myself
                             properly moralized now.  I suggest aaron as your
                             next target.  He seems to have a problem with
                             long winded violent fantasies, and I think he is
                             ready for your brand of gentle reproach.  I
                             think his soul can yet be saved! -- ilyas
                             think his soul can yet be saved!  I hope you are
                             an equal opportunity moralizer, and not someone
                             who designated little old me as his "project."
                               -- ilyas
                             \_ Uhm, it's not about morals, it's about not
                                stomping other people's posts (easy to avoid)
                                while still claiming to be the champion of
                                the motd and the enemy of anonymous cowards
                                etc.  If it'll make you feel better, I can
                                swear at you and call you names and litter the
                                screen with ad hominem, but I figured asking
                                you politely not to contribute to the problem
                                you're always complaining about might be worth
                                a try.
                                \_ Well, actually, post-overwriting is one of
                                   the few problems I am NOT complaining about.
                                   (The reason I don't is that during busy
                                   editing times, writing becomes a game
                                   theory thing of defectors/cooperators, and
                                   it's not always defensible to stay a
                                   cooperator).
                                   \_ I don't have this problem, and I bet I
                                      post way more than you do.  I think this
                                      is merely justification to dodge the
                                      blame and maintain self-righteousness.
                                      \_ Haven't you heard?  Half of the motd
                                         posts are actually mine.  You must
                                         be the other half.  All I am going to
                                         say is, motd is during busy times like
                                         a conversation with a lot of people,
                                         and you need to raise your voice to
                                         get a word in.  If you haven't
                                         done something like that yourself
                                         in a busy conversation, I admire
                                         your restraint and condemn your
                                         veracity (since you would be lying
                                         through your teeth). -- ilyas
                                         \_ MOTD != conversation.  I haven't
                                            overwritten a post on motd in
                                            some time (I don't force-save
                                            if the file changed under me).
                                            This comparison really IS a straw
                                            man.  Nice try, but no banana.
                                            (Though I make no claims about
                                            conversation -- as if that's even
                                            a little bit relevant)
                                            \_ During busy times, MOTD is
                                               _worse_ because people are good
                                               at picking out things they want
                                               from multiple parallel
                                               conversations.  MOTD is serial.
                                               When a lot of people are
                                               excitedly talking, the
                                               conversations get louder, but
                                               on the MOTD most people spinlock.
                                               If you haven't had cases where
                                               the file is literally being
                                               edited continuously for many
                                               minutes at a time, you haven't
                                               been posting as much as you say.
                                                 -- ilyas
                                               \_ I'm going home now.  You win.
                                                  \_ *sigh*.  I am not trying
                                                     to say I am not being
                                                     discourteous, I am
                                                     pleading for a sense of
                                                     perspective.  There are
                                                     nastier things going on
                                                     on the motd every day,
                                                     and they don't seem to
                                                     generate huge threads.
                                                     Maybe it's something to
                                                     do with me. -- ilyas
                                                     \_ 1) The other guy has to
                                                        be willing to listen
                                                        for there to be a
                                                        dialogue.  2) You're
                                                        not the only person I
                                                        ding for 'bad things on
                                                        the MOTD' -- I'm just
                                                        civil to you more often
                                                        than most. 3) Never
                                                        argue with drunks or
                                                        madmen.  4) of
                                                        COURSE it's all your
                                                        fault.  I'm shocked
                                                        that you even have to
                                                        ask that.  When did you
                                                        stop beating your wife?
                                                        Maybe if you stopped
                                                        clubbing baby seals
                                                        and eating babies some
                                                        good karma would come
                                                        to you instead.  I
                                                        mean, when western
                                                        civilization falls, we
                                                        all know that you'll be
                                                        the one to blame.
                                                     \_ Keep following that
                                                        train of thought.
                                                        It is correct.
                                   I tend to complain about things that make it
                                   to /etc/motd and THEN mysteriously
                                   disappear.  Anyways, I still think you
                                   should become an equal opportunity crusader,
                                   and start tracking down motd assholes.
                                     -- ilyas
                                   \_ Look, you either get what I'm saying or
                                      you don't (or you're being egregiously
                                      argumentative).  You're not my 'project'
                                      so really, it doesn't matter all that
                                      much -- but it seems senseless to
                                      complain about censorship and then
                                      habitualize a behavior that's very very
                                      easily confused with censorship to those
                                      that don't live in your head.
                                      Seriously, there's just no way to win
                                      with you is there?  Swear at you and
                                      you declare the speaker an anonymous
                                      coward etc, ask you politely to do
                                      something (and give an explanation out
                                      of common courtesy) and you declare the
                                      speaker a moralizer with hints of
                                      hypocrisy as well.   *sheesh*
                                      \_ (a) If you view conversations in
                                         win/lose terms, you need to grow up.
                                         (b) If you honestly don't see the
                                         difference between stamping changes
                                         before they make it to /etc/motd, and
                                         purposefully nuking stuff from
                                         /etc/motd, then i am sorry but we
                                         don't have enough common ground to
                                         continue.
                                         (c) I think you should probably just
                                         leave me be. -- ilyas
                                         \_ This is all good, and I have no
                                            problem with what you're both
                                            saying, but can you please take it
                                            to email?  The motd is getting
                                                very narrow at the bottom
                                                        because it's so long
                                                                and so
                                                                  unwieldy
                                                                        -John
                             \_ i'm not pp, but aaron's stuff that annoys you
                                is signed and annoying only because of content,
                                easily ignored and generally only on wall.
                                it's not relevant to The MOTD Experience(TM).
        \_ I don't get: "BC"? ---> nevermind, I'm stupid.
        \_ 115M, 49, 48, 271 (bc over ke)     -mice
        \_ ???M, 52, 46, 272 BC over KE
        \_ Everyone needs to remember 2 things: 50% is not require to win, and
           there are other guys running are polling between 1% and 4% total
           depending on the poll and the state polled.
        \_ And now some smarter people's numerical predictions: ;-)
 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinion/outlook/outlookCrystalBall04.html
           http://csua.org/u/9qj (washingtonpost.com opinion)
                \_ You're missing the point.  We've all been reading other
                   people's predictions and maps and polls and crap for months.
                   It's our turn to make our own predictions.
                   \_ Me:  Tongue in cheek (smiley added)
                      You:  Insecure
                      \_ You came back to edit your post after I replied and I'm
                         the insecure one?  Okey dokey, Mr. Stable.
        \_ 130M, 51.5, 46, 331-207 KE wins -jctwu
        \_ 135M, 51, 51, unknown but with 4 weeks of riot
           \_ I'm changing my bet to match this person's.
        \_ How many registered voters are there out there?
           \_ Alive, dead, convicts, what?
              \_ Any! Nationally!  I've been googling and searching the FEC
                 site, but I get no info on how many overall registered voters
                 there are.  Help!
2004/10/29-31 [Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:34451 Activity:high
10/29   I shot quite a few videos at my friend's wedding and now I'd
        like to compile them nicely, with subtitles, music, etc. What's
        a good, powerful, and affordable program I should get to do
        this? I'd like to make MPEG2s and such, for video CD, for
        DVD, etc. Thanks!
        \_ DVDLab.  DVDLab Pro if you really need subtitles, but once you
           realize how much work it is to transcribe dialogue, you might
           not care. --jameslin
           \_ tried it, sucks sucks sucks!!! Get a Mac for photo/video stuff,
              it is much better.
           \_ tried it, sucks sucks sucks!!! Get a Mac for photo/video
              stuff, it is much better.
              \_ It sucks sucks sucks because...? --jameslin
                \_ user interface is awkward. Obviously, you've never used
                   iMovie. You know, Macs come with better (and free)
                   softwares.
                   \_ Whatever.  It still blows away its competition on
                      Windows. --jameslin
        \_ Drink Kool-aid: iMovie + iDVD. If you are a bit fancier
           try FC{X,P} + DVD Studio Pro.
           \_ I really like DVD Studio Pro.  With versions 2 and higher,
              menus are really easy to make, as well.  I've never played
              with iDVD, though, so I don't have much to compare it with.-sax
              with iDVD, though, so I don't have much to compare it with.
              -sax
                \_ uh, yeah, it also costs over $1k
                   \_ If you don't have a mac then iDVD is pretty expensive
                      too.
              \_ Menus are pretty easy to make with iDVD (free if you
                 have a Mac w/ a superdrive or $39 if you buy iLife
                 w/ a student discount). The type of menus are pretty
                 limited but are enough for most non-pros.
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34452 Activity:kinda low
10/29   Bizarre.  The media is in spin-overdrive, declaring the OBL tape a
        "big win for Bush."
        I don't get it.  Please, someone explain this to me.
        \_ Is it TV you're watching?  Which stations?
        \_ "The airing of a tape of Osama bin Laden capped a week of
            bad news for President Bush that threatened to derail his
            candidacy in the final days of the presidential election" --CBS
            \_ CNN is saying pretty much exactly the opposite, that the tape
               "completely wipes away the events of the last week."
                \_ Perhaps meaning that it supercedes it... it's a statement
                   that says nothing about being good or bad for Bush.
                   \_ NBC Nightly News: ""The Bin Laden tape has erased any
                      momentum that John Kerry may have had during the past
                      week".  Go TV news!  How can he even pretend to know
                      that?
                      \_ I think it's reasonable to expect that the release
                         of the tape will change the dialog over the next
                         couple of days; that's not the same as "erasing any
                         momentum," since it could wind up being positive for
                         Kerry.  -tom
2004/10/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34453 Activity:high
10/29   Given that the Dems likely aren't going to carry any of the
        Southern states (with a possible exception of Florida), do you
        think they would have fared better in some other traditionally
        republican states if John Kerry picked someone else to run for VP?
        \_ no.
2017/09/21 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/21    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:29 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>