10/28   Star Wars Episode 3 :ROTS spoilers from a rough cut viewing
        http://tinyurl.com/3z6gv
        \_ Apparently, Yoda farts.  This may be the first SW movie I don't see
           in the theater.
           \_ Damn you, I was so going to not visit this link so I could be
              surprised, but now I have to.
        \_ I hear from ILM friends that they are pleasently surprised
           at the quality. Before they were proud of the visuals but
           the rest sucked. They say it is by far the best of the three.
           Granted, that isn't too hard, but encouraging.

10/28   Red Sox pwns Cardinals, Bambino turns over in his grave.
        Bostonians wicked happy.
        \_ Still waiting for the first "who the fuck cares" statement.
           It was rather anticlimatic though, after NY-Bos
           \_ at least it was quick.
           \_ Is it over yet?

10/27   There was a de-penised wonder here commenting about a problem posted
        by ilyas, which said de-penised wonder had, in all likelihood,
        previously deleted, and in response to which needle-pegging weenieness
        the management has kindly provided not an ass link, but a technical
        means for transporting ass links conveniently and comfortably:
        http://www.kolumbus.fi/xtmb/goatsefloppy

10/28   The Brain Game!
        http://www.imgag.com/product/full/ap/3067907/graphic1.swf

10/28   Is there a good Latin word for "bullshit", in the sense of smoke &
        mirrors, fast talking, "money talks & bullshit walks"?  -John
        \-On Geroge Bush aka Chimpy: Exemplum de simia quae quando
          plus ascendit plus apparent posteriora eius.
          \_ One word, partha, and monkey buttocks don't count.
        \_ stratagem? - ciyer
                \_ Was hoping for something a bit more cynical (imagine
                   Drill Sgt. Hartmann yelling BULLSHIT!)
                   \_ That Mel Gibson jesus film supposedly used "street
                      latin."  Maybe you should look up what their source
                      was for that.
        \_ Res Ipsa Loquitor

10/28   Smoking gun on the explosives issue:
        http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/102904Y.shtml
        \_ Liberal media consipracy.  Jason Blair.  CBS.  NANANANANA
           CAN'T HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAR YOU.
        \_ This isn't anything like a smoking gun for anyone seeking a real
           answer.  Your link says that they don't know what they were
           looking at.  It says the place was looted but it would have been
           "unlikely" anyone could haul 380 tons of anything away while the
           streets were "jammed with American armor".  This is a very serious
           issue and you're making a big fucking joke of it.  If the stuff was
           gone before we got there, we need to know that.  If it was somehow
           looted (all 380 tons) by the guys with the pickup truck mentioned
           in your link, then we need to know that.  If it was moved to Syria
           or just other places inside the country which had 1 *million tons
           of other crap all over the place, we need to know that.  Your link
           is speculation, not fact and certainly not a smoking gun.  No one
           needs to cry out "liberal bias!" to see your link doesn't say what
           you say it says.  Your link isn't biased.  It reports facts.  You
           are spinning the facts presented by the media into biased and
           unsubstantiated conclusions.
           \_ see first comment
           \_ http://kstp.com/article/stories/S3741.html?cat=1
              Couldn't be clearer.
              Yahoo News on the analysis:
              link:csua.org/u/9pc
              \_ The second URL doesn't go anywhere.
        \_ There has been no smoking gun.  It's STILL not clear what happened
           to the 380 tons of RDX/HMX between March and May 2003.  Securing
           this facility was not a priority for Dubya -- finding bio,
           chemical, and more significant nuclear components was his priority.
                 \_ No it wasn't.  This was one of the biggest friggin
                    NUCLEAR sites in Iraq!
                    \_ What else besides RDX/HMX was nuclear-related at
                       Al-Qaqaa in March, 2003?
                       \_ A huge amount of dual use manufacturing and
                          research equipment.  Also all looted.
                          \_ Are you sure this was at Al-Qaqaa?
           What is clear?  The general problem of not having enough troops,
           widespread looting of explosives from arms sites and from every
           public institution that began immediately after Baghdad fell (if
           not earlier), and the post-war plan being botched in general.
        \_ What are "proximity fuses" made out of? This is a serious
           question.

10/28   Gah! HOw do I keep spamassassin's files from putting me over
        quota? I have STFW. I spent a couple hours, actually. I lack
        sufficient clue to find the answer.
        \_ Add a 'rm -f LSPAM' line to your .login.
           \_ What does that do? I don't know of an "LSPAM" file.
              \_ Um, if you never see LSPAM files, never mind.
           \_ Does this mean someone else is using ifile?
              \_ Guilty as charged.
                 \_ Wow.
        \_ Link the following files in ~/.spamassassin to /dev/null
           (using ln -s):
                auto-whitelist.db@ -> /dev/null
                bayes_journal@ -> /dev/null
                bayes_seen@ -> /dev/null
                bayes_toks@ -> /dev/null
           \_ Hmm. Maybe I'm asking too much, but is there a way to stay
              under quota that doesn't involve crippling bayesian filtering?
              I don't get why I'd be the only person whose bayes_* files are
              going over quota. I just haven't heard what people are doing
              about it given sa's populariry.
              \_ You aren't the only one. I asked for a quota increase.
                 It's not like it's a lot of space.
              \_ Google for Mail::SpamAssassin::Conf, and look at the
                 following configuration settings:
                 bayes_journal_max_size
                 bayes_expiry_max_db_size
                 bayes_auto_expire
                 bayes_learn_to_journal
                \_ Alrighty. The trouble is answers web-wide are good for the
                   quotas on particular systems. I would like some suggested
                   values for these items (which all go into .spamassassin/
                   user_prefs for others trying to learn from this thread) that
                   are good for soda.
        \_ I have all these files like bayes_toks.expire7965 that I am pretty
           sure I did not used to have. What is going on?
           \_ http://csua.org/u/80t

10/28   Here you go, Partha.  Actual Economist endorsement of Kerry:
        http://csua.org/u/9oz (economist.com)
        \_ The editor, Bill Emmott, put it this way: "It was a difficult
           call, given that we endorsed George Bush in 2000 and supported the
           war in Iraq. But in the end we felt he has been too incompetent to
           deserve re-election."
        \_ Summary:  Guantanamo bad!!! Waaaaaa!!!  Nothing to recommend for
           Kerry.  And apperently they haven't actually read the Geneva
           Convention resolutions.
           \_ where does it say "parade people around naked and make
              them masturbate into the mouths of the prisoner over there
              and have some dumbass from virginia take photos of them"?
              \_ Um, that didn't happen in Guantanamo you idiot.  That was Abu
                 Ghraib in Iraq.
                \_ That's what you think! - seymour
           \_ Why do people keep forgetting that in a two-candidate system,
              any refutation of one candidate automatically recommends the
              other candidate?
              \_ "You're either with us or against us in the fight against
                 terror." -GW Bush
                 America, Fuck Yeah!!!!1!
              \_ Which is why you should always vote *for* someone instead of
                 *against* someone.
                 \_ If your choice is between handing a loaded gun to the guy
                    who just shot you in the foot and some guy who hasn't shot
                    you in the foot yet, go with the guy who hasn't shot you
                    yet.  He *might* shoot you, but the other guy *will* shoot
                    you.
                    \_ I'm voting for the guy who isn't George W. Bush!
                 \_ Hint: it's not "instead of". You do both, unless you don't
                    vote at all, which would accomplish nothing.
           \_ Holding people indefinitely without trial or right to council
              or right to defend themselves or even know what the charges
              or right to defend themselves or even to know what the charges
              against them are seems fundamentally unamerican to me. -ausman
              \_ Yeah, at least Dubya could have done what the JAGs
                 argued very strenuously for:  some way to vet all the
                 detainees and some kind of a process.
              \_ WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?

10/28   Has anyone had trouble building SpamAssassin 3.0.1 on RH 9?  It seems
        to have major problems, and I can't tell if it's SA's fault or
        Redhate's.  perl Makefile.PL yields a Makefile with stray single
        quotes and truncated lines.  google searches yield no help.
        --scotsman
        \_ No idea about that in particular, but can you generate the makefile
           on some other system and copy it in?
        \_ doesnt answer your question (this IS the motd) but it worked out
           of the box for me on Solaris 9 and Gentoo 2004. Instead of using
           the makefile, i ran:
                perl -MCPAN -e'install Mail::SpamAssassin'

Please don't nuke.

10/28   Does anyone know how movie theaters pay movie makers?  I had heard
        that there is a base film price, and then some percentage of tickets
        sales, the percentage of which decreases over time such that it is
        almost 0% by the time the movie has been out 4 weeks.  Anyone
        know details?
        \_ There's not much more to it.  CNN says pretty much the same:
           http://money.cnn.com/2002/03/08/smbusiness/q_movies
           \_ Hmmm.. thanks.  My numbers were a little off, but ok.
              (Blockbusters start at about 90% of ticket sales a descend
              to about 35%, after 5-6 weeks.  I wonder what dollar
              theaters do?)
              \_ Again, they lease, but at significantly lower rates. For
                 them, it's really all about the connections they have with
                 the distro houses.  Also, in case you were wondering why
                 AMC gets Spiderman while Century gets Harry Potter, the big
                 chains bid very competitively and will guarantee the studios
                 a certain amount of money; kind of like Oakland promising
                 the Raiders a certain number of sold seats.
        \_ Why is it done this way?
           \_ consider that theatres make most of their revenue off of
              concessions and not ticket sales, and you'll realize why
              the cost to theatre of getting a movie drops over time.
              after time, the movie doesn't draw in as large of a crowd
              and so concessions sales are lower, so the cost of the movie
              needs to be such that the theatre doesn't lose out.
              \- i think it is interesting there is flat pricing for
                 movies. --psb

10/28   This is funny.  And I do agree that Bush is an effective leader.
        Lead us to wrong directions, but an effective leader never the less:
        http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/27/opinion/27kristof.html
        username / pw = bobbob
        \_ obLongUnproductiveThreadAboutWhatEffectiveLeaderWrongDirectionMeans
        \_ America, fuck yeah!!!!
        \_ That is funny. Thank you.

10/28   Bush campaign admits doctoring campaign ad image:
        http://csua.org/u/9p5 (yahoo! news)

Please don't nuke.
        \- as has been established, i'm no fan of BUSHCO, but why
           is this interesting/disturbing/bad? --psb

Please don't nuke.

10/28   I just built a terrabyte raid server using linux. The distro is
        an older version of RH 8 (need it to keep compatibility with certain
        apps). I formatted the raid to be XFS. The server is an NFS server,
        and I appear to be hitting the 2 gig file limit. According to the
        docs I'm supposed to be able to get beyond the 2 gig limit with
        RH8. I have compiled a new 2.4.27 kernel to replace the stock
        RH8 kernel to be sure. Is this perhaps a limitation of the NFS
        server? How can I tell and do I just need to recompile the
        NFS utils and server? Isn't the server somehow integrated with
        the kernel now? Or is this a limitation of the filesystem? -williamc
        \_ I have no problem using ext3 and NFS with the 2.4.20-30.8
           kernel. My guess is your filesystem. Does it have a largefiles
           option? (I'm not familiar with xfs except on SGI.)
           \_ Well, it should. XFS is supposed to handle large files
              rather well. Other than dumping a 2+ gig file on the drive
              is there a way to tell if the underlying filesystem supports
              2+ gigs? I also heard that there may be libc issues. What
              libc version are you using?
              \_ The question is "Does it by default?". What's wrong with
                 dumping a 2+ gig file to the drive? That will provide your
                 answer. I am using glibc-2.3.2-4.80.6, if it matters.
                 \_ The fact that it's two gigs? Why apply hammer if you
                    can just figure it out by some setting? -williamc
        \_ Are you having trouble with a particular application?  does dd
           create a file that large?  I've had some problems with some
           applications that don't deal with the largeness correctly (apache,
           squid)
           \_ I'm having trouble with it in general. I would like it to work
              with NFS. The applications run on Sun machines, so no
              2 gig barrier on the apps. -williamc
        \_ I would stay away from XFS if you care about your data. The XFS
           fsck code will corrupt your data if you lose power during a
           journal replay. This can happen if you crash due to a power failure,
           the power comes back on, you start the recovery, and the power
           fails again. We just did a paper on this:
           http://keeda.stanford.edu/~junfeng/papers/osdi04.pdf
           --twohey.
                \_ And ext3 or reiserfs is better? -williamc
                \_ And ext3 or reiserfs is better?  BTW, I read your paper,
                   you guys didn't test XFS... -williamc
                \-i have not throughly read this over (yet) but any plans
                  to look at non-linux (AssOS) filesystems? I've been so
                  frustrated with linux i couldnt bring myself to participate
                  in this thread. ObAndrewHumeonAssOS

10/28   http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=206661
        "No, my fellow countrymen you are guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. You
        are as guilty as Bush and Cheney. You're as guilty as Rumsfeld and
        Ashcroft and Powell ... After decades of American tyranny and
        oppression, now it's your turn to die. Allah willing, the streets of
        America will run red with blood matching drop for drop the blood of
        America's victims. ... People of America, I remind you of the weighty
        words of our leaders, Osama bin Laden and Dr. Ayman al-Zawahri, that
        what took place on Sept. 11 was but the opening salvo of the global
        war on America ... And that Allah willing, the magnitude and ferocity
        of what is coming your way will make you forget all about Sept. 11."
        \_ "And, again, I don't know where he [bin laden] is.  I  --  I'll
            repeat what I said.  I truly am not that concerned about him." -GW
            \_ That's nice you quote only this part. Shows how honest you are.
        \_ "Azzam, who formerly worked for Haliburton, KBR, and Senior
            Presidential Advisor Karl Rove, says that this imminent attack
            should serve to underscore Vice President Dick Cheney's
            fearmongering."

10/28   I don't know jack about anthropology, but isn't it a bit of a stretch
        to start believing in hobbits because of *one* skeleton?
        \_ Reread any of the articles.  It wasn't "one skeleton"
        \_ If you mean hobbits a la LOTR, of course it is.  If you mean the
           existence of three-foot-tall hominids, the sheer number of
           skeletons found is enough to be fairly convincing.
           \_ I mean the latter.  I was just looking at the Nature paper, and
              only saw reference to one or two skeletons.  Are there more
              reported elsewhere?
              \_ you don't have to worry; that was 20,000 years ago, and
                 since the earth is only 6,000 years old, clearly they were
                 planted by the Devil to tempt us into disbelief.  -tom
                 \_ Jeez.  I'm not worried, I'm just curious.  Some friends
                    and I were looking at the article in Nature, and it
                    sounded pretty nutty.
                 \_ Silly tom, it's doesn't say anywhere that one of the
                    animal species God created couldn't be hominid.
                    \_ This sounds like something the Devil would write.
           \_ One thing I didn't get was whether they could just be some monkey
              or ape form. There were homo erectus on the same island. From the
              one article I read I didn't see any proof that these creatures
              could even talk, or that the tools couldn't have been from the
              homo erectus (erecti?) there. Basically there didn't seem to be
              enough justification to call them "men".

10/28   My favorite Haiku:
         My Moon-based Death Ray
         Panics the people of Earth.
         Mock my theories now!
           --Andrew G. McCann
           \- california dude
              surfs up and the babes are rad
              totally bitchin
                \_ Hammasrattaat hak-
                   kaavat. Samassa langat
                   tavarataakkaa.
                   (Finnish haiku featuring the specialty of using 'a'
                   vowel only)
                   \_ I don't understand
                      How you people write haiku
                      Without saying zinc.

10/28   O'Reilly - Mackris case settled out of court.  No details on whether
        there was money or how much, nor actual tapes.  (It is legal to
        record telephone conversations without the other party's knowledge
        in New York, which is where Mackris was.)
       http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=peopleNews&storyID=6651265

10/28   what's lpt1 under linux? /dev/???? thanks.
        \_ lp1 I'd guess.  -John

10/28   Did anyone else notice the constant cutaways to an unnamed US barracks
        in baghdad, with US soldiers watching the game, during the World Series?
        With the caption "Multi-National Force" underneath what were clearly
        only US soldiers?  Interesting how the FOX News tilt has made its way
        into their SPORTS coverage!  And after the game, the first question
        they asked one of the Red Sox was something along the lines of "What do
        you have to say to the soldiers over in Baghdad?"

10/28   Re: "spamassassin going over quota" thread below, I will restate:
        Try ifile.  It's an excellent bayesian filter whose database currently
        uses less than 230K for me.
        \_ I tried setting up ifile. It was that much more complicated and
           didn't work nearly as well as sa once I did. YMMV. Still, if sa is
           going to consistently involve up to 10M of reference files, I may
           give it another go. I have only so many hours to burn on this stuff,
           though. I am not the sysadmin from a couple of days ago who "works
           1.5 hours a day".

10/28   Mostly serious inquiry for BUSHCO supporters: If Bush were revealed to
        have a catamite back at the Crawford Ranch, would you still vote for
        him? If you are supporting him so that your dividends arent taxed,
        is it still about the money? On the flip side, would you Clintonistas
        have had a "problem" if Monica were say 15 ... I have to think the
        people who defended the Mark Rich pardon would stick with him through
        thick [monica] and thin. --psb
        \_ This is why I think there should be a mechanism in place to
           rescind the nomination and renominate on a dime.  Or have a
           succession plan, like the VP-hopeful becomes P-hopeful.  It seems
           silly to suddenly become a liberal for an election because a
           conservative ended up being unusually slimy this election season.
             -- ilyas
        \_ Pardons cannot be defended, as there is no offense.  The power
           of pardon, as abused as it might be is at the discretion of the
           President.  Some people are more discrete than others.  Personally,
           I'm a good deal more bothered by Bush I's pardons than Clinton's.
           \- is it not obvious i am not accusing him of doing something
              illegal but hypocritical, sleazy etc w.r.t. to the marc rich
              pardon. yes, this is not a great issue of state like the
              nixon pardon, but i think it significant for its egregiousness
              not its significance, if you see what i mean. --psb
        \_ Well, I'm male, so I'm not a Clitonista, though I was a stolid
                     \- You know, not all the Sandinistas were women.
           supporter of Clinton.  But to answer your question, if he'd been
           caught with a 15 year old, I'd have very sadly, and with much
           grief in my heart howled for his blood.
        \_ I don't think I count as a Clintonista, since I voted for Nader,
           but I supported him through the impeachment hearings. But if
           Monica had been 15, yes, I would have called for his hide.
        \_ What is catamite and why should I care? I vote republican
           not b/c of Bush. I vote for GOP candidates b/c I think
           that in the long run only republicans can return us
           to a "wise and frugal government" that restrains men
           from injurying one another, but otherwise leaves them
           free to regulate their own affairs.
           \_ example: invasion of Iraq :p
           I also feel that the major problems stem from stupid
           socialist policies brought about by democrats (New Deal,
           Great Society, &c.). Also Democrats will likely bring
           about crappy social policy like abortion on demand,
           legal pot, condoms for jr kids and garraige. I'm also
           appalled at the prospect of a more liberal judiciary
           that doesn't understand the fundamentals of federalism
           and willy nilly makes law.
           The last democrat I would have considered voting for is
           Truman (the only bad thing I can say about Truman is
           that he didn't let MacArthur win in Korea).
           \_ MacArthur wanted to use *WMD* on China.  Then again,
              if MacArthur can open fire upon USA's own WWI veterans,
              nuking civilians shouldn't be much of a moral challenge
              for him.
           \_ There's nothing frugal about Bush's government. The problem
              with your thinking is that you're voting based on a predetermined
              partisan mindset regardless of the actual candidate. You are also
              falling prey to GOP scare tactics on the garriage thing which is
           \_ MacArthur wanted to use *WMD* on China.  Then
              again, if MacArthur can open fire upon USA's own WWI
              veterans, nuking civilians shouldn't be much of a
              moral challenge for him.
              \_ MacArthur would have solved the China problem.
                 The Bonus March was probably not the smartest
                 thing to do, but I agree w/ MacArthur's view
                 that "we fought for our country, not for money".
           \_ There's nothing frugal about Bush's government. The
              problem with your thinking is that you're voting based
              on a predetermined partisan mindset regardless of the
              actual candidate. You are also falling prey to GOP
              scare tactics on the garriage thing which is
                                  \_ BUSH = DRAFT!!!!!```11one~uno!!!
              ridiculous.
                \_ Can you seriously tell me that any Democrat
                   will roll back the progressive income tax?
                   Can you honestly tell me that any Democrat
                   will reduce social programs? Which Democrat
                   will tell kids to stop taking drugs and
                   having sex and stay in school and study?
                   How many Democrats really advocate personal
                   responsibility? Also which Democrats truly
                   will put America first and go against world
                   stupidity (need I remind you that Democrats
                   were opposed to Zero Option and were pro
                   detente)?

10/28   Jude Wanniski, father of supply-side theory, endorses Kerry:
        http://www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=3935
        \_ Can someone please tell us why he's wrong?
           \_ HMX is only needed for implosion-type fusion nukes.
              Terrorists can still make gun-type fission nukes fairly easily
              as long as they have the highly-enriched uranium.
              Terrorists can still make gun-type fission nukes fairly
              easily as long as they have the highly-enriched uranium.
              \_ So, that's all you need to know to forget about what
                 the father of Reaganomics has to say?  Alrightie.

10/28   Bush flipping off the camera. Is this for real?
        http://static.vidvote.com/movies/bushuncensored.mov
        \_ Apparently so.

10/28   Any bets on whether the new "Al Qaeda" tape will prove to be real?
        \_ I don't think al-queda is as centralized as the administration
           says it is.  they didn't start calling themselves
           "al-queda" until the gwbush administration started blamin
            everything on them.
        \_ It IS real.  Authenticated by the CIA.  Delivered in Pakistan.
           Professionally done.  Speaker follows the news and is more
           articulate than Dubya.
           \_ Um...
              "But agency officials said they have not been able to
              authenticate the tape."
              http://csua.org/u/9pd (yahoo news)
              Also, who is leaking this shit to Drudge?
              \_ "The CIA and FBI have authenticated a new al Qaeda videotape"
                 http://www.drudgereport.com/abct2.htm
                 Well, that's where I got "authenticated" from, I guess.
                 \_ Sure, a Drudge link.  Heh.
                    \_ Anyway, I guess the CIA hasn't authenticated it, but
                       from all evidence so far it's real:
                       http://ww.csmonitor.com/2004/1029/p06s01-wosc.html
                       Of course, IMO, the guy is talking completely out of
                       his ass.
                       \_ In case you haven't noticed, pretty much all
                          terrorists are totally nuts.  Who but a nut job
                          could you get to drive a car full of explosives
                          someplace and BLOW HIMSELF UP?
                          \_ "talking out of his ass" = making claims that
                             he can't back up with actions
                             \_ Oh, sorry.  Does that make me a FOB?
                                \_ 5 dollah sucky sucky!
                             \_ that's not really a global definition. To
                                "talk out of one's ass" generally means
                                talking bullshit, usually in the sense of
                                making stuff up as needed. Similarly,
                                "he pulled that out of his ass" means he
                                just made something up and passed it off as
                                real.

10/28   What's the best cell phone deal out there?  Preferably not linked to
        a mandatory 2 year contract?
        \_ *sound of crickets chirping in the backgroud*
        \_ er, what do you need and/or what do you want to pay? i.e. how many
           minutes, long distance, national roaming etc.
        \_ well, if you don't want a contract you have to go with prepaid, and
           the best price/coverage deal is probably Cingular/ATT.  The contract
           length is linked to how much discount you get on your phone, so if
           you're willing to take a 1-year contract, you can get a MUCH better
           price/minute than if you went prepaid, but you'll get a better or
           cheaper phone if you commit to 2 years.
        \_ What's the best tool out there?  Oh, and what's the best vehicle?
        \_ if you work at a company that has some sort of sponsorship
           agreement with a carrier, you can get a decent discount.

10/28   I have a powerpoint file that contains many jpegs. Is there a way
        somehow to extract the jpegs alone and save them?

10/28   Here is a stupid question of the day.  Since butterfly ballot doesn't
        work, and electronic voting machine sucks, why don't we just use
        *SCANTRONS* for ballot?  Anyone who attend a year or two of high
        school would be very familar with this system, and scantron is a
        relatively fast accurate means of casting a vote, no?
        \_ not sure why anyone uses the butterfly ballot, good question
        \_ This is how we do it in my county (Northern CA).  Each issue on the
           ballot has a rectangle next to it.  We use purple felt-tip pens to
           fill in the rectangles.  These systems are referred to "optical"
           systems among the voting machines.  They have the lowest rate of
           ballot spoilage of all methods IIRC.
        \_ We're using scantrons as of 2004 in L.A. County too, I believe.
        \_ San Francisco uses Optical scan as well.  It is by far and away
           considered to be the best overall method, but I believe the
           machines are very expensive compared to the Diebold type
           devices.  Counties don't want to pay for expensive things like
           that.
           \_ Well, you know there's a government subsidy on voting
              machines with easily fakable vote counts.
        \_ Hey, Oregon has mail-in balloting only.  They should do this
           nationally.  No more long line, wrong precinct problems.
           They just have to mail them by some postmark, let's say, or drop
           them off at specific locations by a certain day.
           \_ Absentee has the most possibilities for fraud.  I'm for outlawing
              it.
        \_ Sutter County uses scantrons as well.
        \_ How about if people are too stupid to write legible ballots /
           vote they have to live with their own actions?
           \_ A scantron card is easy to use if you can figure it out.  A
              butterfly ballot can get fucked up by quite a lot of reasonably
              intelligent people.  A Diebold machine can crash and lose all
              votes on its little Windows brain forever, or have its Microsoft
              Access "security" hacked and have votes changed, without any
              record.
        \_ As balloting methods go, scantrons are a lot better than many of
           the other methods out there, but still far from perfect.  If memory
           serves the most common problem with scantron style ballots are
           entry errors, e.g. partially filled in bubble/rectangle, filling in
           multiple rectangles for a single race, etc.  Though better than
           punchcards with their hanging, pregnant, dimpled, etc. chads there
           is still the possibility of inaccuracy when interpreting voter
           intent.
           Scantrons are *WAY* cheaper than computerized touch-screen
           DRE voting systems, but most of the scantron voting systems are
           made by the same companies that make DRE voting systems.  Since
           there's more profit to be made on DRE systems than scantrons, the
           companies are much more aggressive about selling the DRE systems.
           It's a pretty easy sell since many election supervisors are fairly
           clueless when it comes to technology, and the DRE systems have a
           much higher ``gee-whiz, ain't computers cool'' factor than
           scantrons.  The money allocated by HAVA (Help America Vote Act) can
           only be spent on election equipment/maintenance, and if local
           officials don't spend it, it disappears so there's no incentive to
           buy scantrons for price reasons.
           One other thing to consider is that scantron ballot counting
           devices are potentially hackable, though, IMO, much less so than
           most DRE systems.  Of course, you have a paper trail for manual
           recounts which is definitely an improvement over DRE's.
           -dans