Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:21 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/10/21 [Computer/SW/Compilers] UID:34258 Activity:nil
10/20   When I compile gcc with the -g option, my binary becomes bigger
        because I have extra debugging information for the debugger.
        Let's say I'm writing my own primitive debugging tracker that
        looks at offsets of variables (both global and local), how
        do I read those debugging info? In another word, how do I
        fetch those debugging information in a text readable format
        without running or using the debugger? Thanks.
2004/10/21 [Health/Disease/General] UID:34259 Activity:high
10/21   Given that something like 30000 people die in the US from flu each
        year, this Chiron flu vaccine screwup could end up costing more lives
        than 911 or the SARS epidemic.
        \_ Yes, and with less John Edwardsian trial lawyers around and the
                         \_ fewer
           FDA not putting price caps on the shots, there would be more than
           1 American company creating the vaccine and there'd be plenty.
           Stop fucking with the marketplace so deeply and it'll be fine.
           Electing a trial lawyer to fix health care is worse than putting
           the fox on hen house security.  The fox can only eat 1 or 2 hens
           at a time.  The trial lawyer will kill everything.  Already has.
           \_ I'd rather have a trial lawyer in charge than a shill for the
              oil and coal industry.
              \_ Of your healthcare?  Whatever.  How's the beverage taste
                 this season?
        \_ So does America's idiotic car culture, yet somehow that's
           *never* an issue in mainstream politics.
           \_ Smoke...less...crack.  You have just managed to shit out one
              of the most classic stupid equations of all time.  No
              "car culture" causes deaths.  Bad drivers, bad luck, bad
              weather all lead to death.  Yes, having lots of traffic,
              including SUVs, tired truck drivers and aggressive rice-
               rocketeers is bad, but it is a reprehensible side-effect of
               of something good (i.e. personal mobility.)  The Chiron
               fuckup is the result of lack of foresight, bad planning,
               whatnot.  Don't try to compare the two.  Ever.  Now back to
               your cave, crazy troll man.  -John
               \_ Car culture leads to idiotic city planning, which leads
                  to longer commute times, which leads to more time in cars,
                  which continues to increase the carnage.
               \_ John, the vaccine fuckup is due to lawsuits and FDA price
                  caps.  We don't do central planning, Soviet style, here.
                  \_ due to lawsuits... how do you fucking figure?
                     \_ due to the vaccine makers all getting their asses
                        sued and dropping out of the market due to liability
                        fears.  thats how i fucking figure.  why do you think
                        there is only *one* vaccine maker left for the flu
                        in the US now?  why do you think doctors are going
                        out of practice left and right?  liability. sheesh.
                        wake the fuck up.
                  \_ (1) referring to Chiron planning fuckups, (2) price caps
                     sure go in the direction of central planning for me...
                     \_ yes, check when those price caps were put in place and
                        the vaccine makers almost entirely stopped producing
                        in this country.  need a hint?
           \_ Call me crazy, but whenever someone answers "So does X,
              but X is never an issue in mainstream politics," my
              natural reaction is to ask, "Why the hell not?"
              \_ Well, I think the answer is that most people have
                 really warped ideas about risk.  People will happily
                 drive their car along a dangerous interstate to the
                 airport, then get all crazy about flying, which is
                 far safer.  Or launch huge campaigns about firework
                 safety on july 4th, trying to ban anything remotely fun,
                 when having drunk people try to cook meat in the hot
                 sun is probably far more dangerous.  People are
                 \_ People fear risks they can't control much more than those
                    that they can, which makes sense on some level.  You can
                    control how you drive your car, but not what happens on an
                    airplane.  Fireworks injuries are more often in children
                    and immature 'adults'.  People are logically worried that
                    their kid will sneak some fireworks and blow his hand off.
                    And if the fireworks start a fire, that will damage the
                    property of innocent 3rd parties.  If you can control your
                    own risk, there's a lot less reason to petition the
                    government to control it for you.
                \_ Getting into a car wreck on a dangerous highway is more
                   likely to happen to a bad driver.  Since most people don't
                   believe they are bad drivers, this is "someone else's risk".
                   \_ I concur with this. -- ulysses
2004/10/21 [Computer/Domains] UID:34260 Activity:moderate
10/21   Anyone know of a study where I can find the frequency of usage
        of RFC1918 networks?  I.e. how many people use 10.x, 172.16.x,
        192.168.x, etc?  -John
        \_ Doubt you can find a reliable number. Since these networks are
        private, people don't usually notify anyone else (outside their
        organizations) about their topology...
           \_ Don't need anything reliable, just general trends and
              preferences (such as, based on personal experience, more
              manufacturers use 192.168.{0,1}.0/24 as default nets than
     wondering if there were any surveys around.
        \_ Try doin it in reverse. You could probably find stats on
           the number of publicly accessible IPs. Then find stats on how
           many computers are connected to the internet (also a number
           you can get estimates on). Go from there...
        \_ One thing you can get a vague number on is the number of
           reverse-resolution requests for RFC1918 networks.  Those *still*
           go to central dns servers on many poorly configured networks.
           It caused enough DNS load that they went to an anycast architecture
           to decentralize the DNS load.
           \_ Who are the "they" you are referring to?  I'm helping
              run/implement anycast DNS for a number of ccTLD's as well as one
              of the root servers.  I know of a few other organizations that
              have proposed anycasting their DNS, but was not aware of any
              that were actually doing implementation work.  It would be cool
              to have others working on the same problem to bounce ideas off
              of. -dans
2004/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34261 Activity:high
        Pretty interesting analysis of Kerry and Bush with regard
        to Iraq, and how it is the single most important issue.
        \_ NYT analysis?  Is this anything more than a "Vote Kerry!" piece?
              \_ NYT on a good jobs report, "BONDS DROP ON JOBS REPORT!"
                 \_ AP on a 3 point Kerry lead today: "Race tied."
                    Reuters on a 1 point Bush lead, different poll for
                    same time period: "Bush with narrow lead."
                    What liberal media?
                    \_ Reuters doesn't appreciate margins of error.
        \_ "The big question about Kerry is, 'Will he pull the trigger?'
           ... And the big question about Bush is, 'Can he aim?'"
2004/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:34262 Activity:high
10/21   Liberal comes to O'Reilly's defense, criticizes Mackris!  omg!
        \_ OMG what?  There's nothing to discuss until the facts are out.
           Right now we know nothing except her charges yet you assume he is
           a guilty pervert.  Did you assume the same of Clinton or were you
           in the "she's a whore, and you can't rape a whore!" camp on that?
           This is still the United States where you're innocent until
           *proven* guilty in a court of law.  Sheesh.
           \_ I took it a little less directly than that.  I think the guy
              was saying, "If O'Reilly is guilty, which I don't know, the
              accuser still looks pretty silly since she repeatedly put
              her self back in the position as victim voulentarily."
           \_ where do you get that I "assume [O'Reilly] is a guilty pervert"?
              \_ Your description of the link.  If you didn't mean that, then
                 please accept my apology for misrepresenting your view.  That
                 is the way it honestly came across.
           \_ It's absolutely mind-bending that you can't see the deliciousness
              of a man who's made a career out of unsubstantiated ad hominem
              being himself the victim of the "guilty until proven innocent"
              \_ Because I don't see that being how he made his career.
                 \_ Ah.  And how do you see it?
2004/10/21 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Computer/Theory] UID:34263 Activity:very high
10/21   What Americans truly loathe about dealing with Europeans: Alan Turing
        on American efforts to break Enigma:
        "Generally speaking, their attitude is so purely mechanical and
         mathematical that they often fail to see the wood for the trees and
         do not like to admit that experience and a knowledge of immediately
         prior developments, combined with a little manual work, may often
         produce the answer more quickly than machinery."
        I say, old chap, could you possibly be a bit more condescending?
        \_ Yes, but you wouldn't understand it.  -John
        \_ Here's my perspective as a scientist who's dealt with western
           europeans: they'd rather spend a day blathering and writing on the
           chalkboard than an hour in the machine shop to just build the
           damn experiment.  I'm excluding the English and the Swiss from
                That's because all the good scientists from here _/
                have moved to the US.
                \_ Interesting.  Why do you think that is?
                   \_ Because govt. & corporate grant money here is about
                      nonexistent, universities/colleges aren't as
                      prevalent as in the US (hence fewer research jobs),
                      US salaries are higher, innovation generally isn't
                      as culturally ingrained, and the academic community
                      here seems pretty small and inbred, wasting a lot of
                      energy going at each others' throats, to name a few
                        \_ </troll>
                      \_ Every foreign scientists I work with is either
                         here already or trying desperately to come here
                         (USA). The few who were here and had to leave are
                         miserable. They do say that Japan is not too bad.
                         A small handful of foreign scientists have a
                         monopoly on the research in Europe and so for
                         those few they are better off there.
                         \_  Uh, so you're saying that you work in the U.S.,
                             and the people you've met while working in the
                             U.S. all work in the U.S.? wow.
                             \_ I work in the US with many foreign
                                scientists and agencies. Some are here for
                                a short time only and some are in Europe
                                and Japan. Just because I work with them
                                doesn't mean they are in the USA.
                         \_ Japan's great for research so long as you're
                            completely willing to give up all rights to the
                            fruit of your research. Cf.:
                            \_ This link doesn't work for me.
           this, but in my opinion western European physicists are all talk
           and no action, and I would avoid working with them in the future
           if at all possible.
           \_ The ones I've met pride themselves on their theoretical work
              and describe Americans as merely applying the practical to the
              more deeply intellectual concepts they've originated.  They
              meant it in the same way we used to talk about the Japanese
              when they were doing nothing but cloning American technology
              and making shittier cheaper versions of it.
        \_ WARNING!  None of the above posters has a clue.
           \_ Said warning applies to any motd post, so it is redundant.
            \_ the tone is condescending, self-righteous, and feeling
               of superiority... ilyas, is that you?
               \_ No, see the above sounds like something tom would say --
                  insulting but uninformative.  If I wanted to be
                  condescending to people in this thread I would
                  wonder outloud how many posters actually worked
                  with European scientists, and whether they are
                  aware of differences between europeans working here
                  in the US vs europeans working in europe, etc.
                  Actually, what they said doesn't sound wrong
                  to me.  In conclusion, you are an anonymous twit,
                  and if you think feelings of superiority are at
                  my personal core you REALLY REALLY don't know me.
                    -- ilyas
                  \_ If you don't know me by now
                     You will never never ever know me
                        -- h melvin and the bluetones
2004/10/21 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:34264 Activity:nil
10/21   Is there something wrong with sneakemail?  I keeping getting bad
        request error (speaking plain http to SSL) while trying to sign up
        in secure mode with Safari, Mozilla, and lynx.
2004/10/21 [Computer/SW/Languages, Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:34265 Activity:nil
10/21   My digital camera (canon powershot) doesn't have the functionality
        of adding date/time at the bottom right hand corner of every picture.
        And I develop the pictures at Costco and their machines do not print
        date/time at the back of the paper.  I really do not want to use
        software and manually open up each file and add the date/time
        into the pictures.  Too time consuming.  Are there other printing
        services that will print the date on the back of the pictures?  Or
        some software that will automatically add the date in.  Like some
        programs will create thumbnails on all jpgs in a directory and name
        them appropriately.  Thanks.
        \_ I suspect ImageMagick could do this if there's some way to extract
           the timestamp from the EXIF data.  ImageMagick is great for scripted
           image manipulation but I don't know how to extract EXIF data with
           it or any other program. -dgies
        \_ I use Imagemagick's convert wrapped in a shell script to do
2004/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:34266 Activity:nil
10/21   O'Reilly for Dikes!
        \_ SNR lower than motd!
2004/10/21 [Uncategorized] UID:34267 Activity:nil
10/21   Anyone here do process accounting under Linux? Does it noticeably
        impact performance?
2004/10/21 [Health/Disease/General] UID:34268 Activity:nil
10/21   Why we don't force things in chemistry, either: (In the Pipeline, worksafe, text only)
2004/10/21 [Computer/SW/P2P] UID:34269 Activity:very high
        Get the 96MB video for a high-quality clip of the Crossfire Jon
        Stewart interview.  This is required viewing, especially if you want
        to stop watching cable TV political analysis shows.
        (For the newbs:  Save the .torrent file, then open it in BitTorrent)
        \_ What is up with this?  Stewart was an ass and the other guy was
           no better.  BTW, Stewart's own ratings have plunged since then.
           \_ Stewart was hilarious, but he had a point: without being partisan
              on the matter, he pointed out that CNN puts entertainment value
              before relevance in its programming decisions.  He's right in
              saying that Crossfire is poor parody of a debate show, but I don't
              think a real debate show would do well on CNN- the ones on PBS
              don't seem to attract viewers.
              \_ If you ask me, Stewart was also talking about the problem
                 of Begala coming "from the left" and Tucker "from the right",
                 and there not being an honest attempt to reach a correct
                 answer (regardless of political leanings), implying that
                 there is none or one is not considered important.  By doing
                 this, you entertain liberals and conservatives and help them
                 think the other side is full of idiots (encouraging the
                 polarization of America), but you don't help them come to a
                 correct, intelligent answer.
                 E.g., part of the correct answer is if Tucker would say
                 Dubya is a fucking moron to still say he would have invaded
                 Iraq if he had known everything we know today.
           \_ are you sure?  or are you believing drudgereport
              again?  the daily show has been on a total of one time
              since friday's crossfire segment - danh
              \_ What have they been doing for the last week?
                \_ the crossfire segment everyone keeps talking about was
                   last friday.  the daily show just ran reruns all last
                   week.  i hope matt drudge gets eye syphilis. - danh
                   \_ So, what you're saying is that Drudge's ratings info
                      is based on last week, _before_ the Crossfire interview
                      and during a week of re-runs.  Gotcha.  'Cos this week
                      has been awesome.
                      \_ right.  do you hate drudge as much as i do
                         yet? - danh
                         \_ DRUDGE HAS NEVER GOTTEN ANYTHING WRONG!!!!!1
                            \_ What?  You prefer Dan Rather and CBS for their
                               highly accurate and well researched and unbiased
                               \_ In the dictionary under "straw man" it says,
                                  "see this post."
                                  \_ Huh?  Are you sure you don't mean
                                     "false dichotomy" or maybe "red
                                     \_ No, you're looking for "false, but
                         \_ I'm not sure that's possible, but I get your point.
2004/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34270 Activity:high
10/21 (Yahoo!)
        Laura Bush proves herself not to be a cog in the Dubya machine:
        "She [Teresa Heinz-Kerry] apologized but she didn't even really need
        to apologize," Mrs. Bush told reporters at a coffee shop ... "I know
        how tough it is and actually I know those trick questions."
           SCREAMING IS THE STANDARD!!!1!!! MARY CHENEY!!!1!!! BUD DAY!!!!!!1
        \_ In other news, expect no apology from Karen Hughes.
        \_ A cog is the Dubya machine?  It was the most mild rebuke of the
           most clownishly stupid woman to ever set foot on a political stage.
           This must be a troll.  Please tell me you don't really believe what
           you're saying.
           \_ Who are you talking about?
2004/10/21 [Recreation/Pets] UID:34271 Activity:low
10/21   Deal dog experts. I've heard that chocolates are bad for dogs
        and may kill them because it's like cocaine for them. Is this
        really true? How about other types of food? Say, McD fries?
        I'm asking because my gf's dad fed their dog McD fries (which
        we all had) and the dog got really really sick, so I'm
        wondering if fries are also bad for dogs. ok thx.
        \_ Dogs don't metabolize the caffeine and theobromine properly, so it
           affects them much more strongly and they 'overdose' very easily.
           As for mickey-D fries... was it just sick as in barfing and/or
           diarehea?  If that's all I'd just blame there being more oil than
           their digestive system could handle.
           A small digression:  Do not feed dogs any raw or cooked onions.
           A compound in onions causes hemolysis (destruction of red blood
           cells) in dogs, which leads to anemia or even death.
           Grapes, raisins and wine are also toxic to them for some unknown
        \_ As above, plus in general dogs should not be eating more than a
           taste of modern human foods and never raw.  Some people believe
           that since dogs eat raw in the wild, they should eat raw in
           captivity, but this doesn't apply, even to a simple bone, because
           in the wild they consume a bone along with the fur, skin, etc, so
           bone shards are coated in other unedible garbage that passes
           through.  When you feed your dog a raw bone without the rest of the
           kill, you can cause serious harm.  As for the rest of human foods,
           they are simply not build to safely eat all that garbage.  I let my
           dog get a *taste* of a lot of things including chocolate very
           rarely but I'm talking a *taste*, as in less than half a tea spoon
           and more commonly just whatever is coating the tip of one finger.
           Do not feed your dog greasy shitty crap like McDs.
2004/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34272 Activity:very high
10/21   This is just sooooo wrong:
        Kerry hunting to get rednecks to vote for him is like GWB
        playing classical piano to get snobby liberals to vote for him.
        \_ He's been a hunter all his life.  Get off it.
           \_ Nonsense.  He only hunts in election years.  Stop drinking it.
              \_ Link for this?
           \_ He is anti-gun to the core.  Here's a Kerry quote on Deer
              "I go out with my trusty 12-gauge double-barrel, crawl
               around on my stomach I track and move and decoy and play
               games and try to outsmart them.  You know, you kind of
               play the wind. That's hunting!"  What a twit.
              \_ 12-gauge shotguns are legal.
              \_ Please.  Give me a quote from GWB that makes him sound like
                 a real hunter.  And stop shotgunning Bud.  It's not helping.
                 \_ I don't recall GWB ever claiming to be a hunter.
2004/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:34273 Activity:very high
10/21   Some asswipe turbo-deleted the thread, so I ll resurrect something
        from it.  Ben, are you saying about 30% of the country actually
        agrees with what Bush et al are doing?  I am not sure where you get
        this number from, but even if you are right, do you think it's any
        different from any other president?  Clinton himself said something
        about the 4 years being necessary so the POTUS has the leeway to
        make unpopular decisions.  Are you saying popularity is the yardstick
        of the Presidency?  Do you think all presidents had a 50%+ mandate
        on their work (or should)?  I don't really see WHAT you are saying
        (other than "I REALLY disagree with this Bush guy, I wish he would
        just fuck off and die!").  I STILL don't see what his policies have to
        do with royalty, it sounds like some sort of liberal figure of speech,
        like me calling liberal policies 'communism' in jest.  Even the
        most venal pro-corp anti-everything else folks don't want Feudalism
        back, it will cut into the profits. -- ilyas
        \_ I was talking about election turnout/civic involvement. -scotsman
        \_ Bush is the most authoritarian President the US has had in
           at least 125 years, probably ever. I am sorry that you are
           so biased that you cannot see that. When you add that to his
           personal arrogance, there is a reasonable cause for concern.
                 \_ I'll spell it out slowly.  I'm not talking about the
                    popular conception of individual families.  I'm talking
                    about ceding our wealth and civic power over to wealthy
                    individuals and corporations (which for some damned
                    reason are people too...).  By cutting or eliminating
                    taxes on unearned or inherited wealth, the burden shifts
                    to income taxes and other revenue streams.  It also allows
                    massive wealth consolidation which means massive power
                    consolidation.  At the same time, deregulation takes away
                    our (the people's) recourse against bad actions by
                    these increasingly wealthy entities.  The reason we have
                    regulations are to keep meat safe to eat, drugs safe to
                    take, planes safe to fly on.  To keep the air breathable,
                    the water drinkable, and our economic markets running
                    smoothly.  The end of this slide would be feudalism, which,
                    as ilyas correctly says, will "cut into profits".  He seems
                    to say that people aren't that shortsighted, and that these
                    philosopher-kings of industry will be able to hold this
                    together.  I'm scared our society will break before that.
                    \_ If taxes worked so well on inherited wealth, how
                       come the Kennedys are all still liveing off
                       inherited wealth? (This question is only sort of
                       Trollish, I am sort of curious about what the
                       Kennedys do to make money.)
                       \_ The Kennedys live off a trust, and therefore do
                          not pay "inheritance taxes."  Only poor people
                          pay inheritence taxes, rich people all have
                          \_ Yeah, all those poor people with estates >$1.5m
                             \_ You mean scotsman is worried about all those
                                schmucks with houses in Palo Alto?
                             \_ I think that number is wrong.  It says
                                here that, before Bush's change, estates
                                over $1mil were charged at the "top
                                rate." This suggests that estates smaller
                                than that would still be taxed.  Also,
                                $1mil isn't that hard to hit if you're
                                running a small business.
                    \_ I'll try to summarize your two concerns firat.  You
                       are worried that 1. the change in tax code will
                       cause a concentration of wealth and power in the
                       elite classes, and 2. deregulation will offer the
                       common people less protection against the whims of
                       the elite.  I have good news for you, my friend.
                       Trivially googling found the following paper from
                       the Urban Institute (  From
                       its conclusion, the study finds that "the evidence
                       suggests that the playing field is becoming more level
                       in the United States.  Socioeconomic origins today
                       are less important than they used to be.  Further, such
                       origins have lttle or no impact for individuals with
                       a college degree, and the ranks of such individuals
                       continue to increase."  So evidence suggests that,
                       contrary to your worries, the upper classes are becoming
                       less stratified and not more.  I recall reading that
                       most of the people on the first Forbes wealthiest list
                       are no longer there, and most of the members of that
                       list earned there money instead of inheriting it.
                       list earned their money instead of inheriting it.
                       I'd like to see evidence that there is the formation
                       of a calcified layer of feudal lords.
                       of a calcified layer of feudal lords.  On the
                       \_ It's actually
                          and it was published in 1997.  Dumbass.  We're
                          talking about the absurd extremism of the last 3
                          years. --scotsman
                          \_ Well, I am sure you can come up with contrary
                             research that says the socioeconomic mobility
                             is decreasing, especially due to the tax policies
                             of the last few years.  Well?  How about research
                             that shows the increase of SE mobility after the
                             imposition of the tax?  Since that was adopted
                             in 1916, surely there has been enough time for
                             researchers to study the matter?  If the imposition
                             of the tax did not improve mobility, then would
                             the removal of the tax decrease it?  I wonder how
                             much the super-rich used to pay in inheritance
                             under the previous tax regime.  Have they already
                             been successful in avoiding those taxes?  You
                             made a lot of claims, how about some data?
                       deregulation side, I will take the less common
                       argument that fewer regulations making it easier for
                       new players to enter a particular field, and therefore
                       creates even more opportunity for socioeconomic
                       mobility.  Fewer rules makes it more difficult for
                       the entrench players to use government regulationis
                       to fend off new challengers, which in turns contributes
                       to the churn of players at the top.
           \_ Oh come on.  Is Bush as bad as Tricky Dick?  Or FDR (to be
              fair about picking authoritarian presidents)?  Bush hasn't
              been caught yet, and he hasn't had the chance to pack the
              Supreme Court either.
              \_ Yeah, he is.  Nixon, contrary to popular belief, made a solid
                 go at adhering to the Freedom of Information Act at the
                 beginning of his term; FDR never lied to get us into war.
                 \_ Ahem... lend-lease... ahem...
                    \_ ...waiting for relevance vis-a-vis lying to get us into
                    \_ While lend-lease may have been a lie, it didn't get us
                       into war.  The Japan Embargo did, and that was done for
                       honest, if questionable reasons.
                    \_ I have a secret plan to end the Vietnam war...woops,
                       sorry, I don't!
                       \_ Don't take the Paris Peace Accords deal!  I'll make
                          you a better offer later!
           \_ And you base this authoritarian accusation on what?  Personal
              experience?  You have studied the history and in context
              background of every President?  I find this... unlikely.  If
              you just hate the guy, just say so.  You don't have to make
              outrageous, unsupported and unsupportable claims in a useless
              attempt to make it appear that your hatred is based on some
              false intellectual premise instead of personal animosity.
           \_ Who was the president 126 years ago, and why is Bush not as
              bad as he was?  Was it even an election year 126 years ago?
              Did you just pull the 125 year number out of your ass?
              \_ Rutherford B. Hayes was the evilest man to ever darken God's
                 green Earth.  On a more serious note, he lost the popular
                 vote but came out ahead in a 8-7 partisan split in a Senate
                 commitee to decide the election.  One of the 3 states whose
                 EVs were in dispute was... Florida. -!pp
           \_ I wouldn't say "Bush is the most authoritarian President" --
              without backup, you sound like a dumb liberal.  At least, you
              were an easy target for above posters.
              The argument is much sharper to describe the most important and
              obvious event instead of just applying a label.
              E.g.:  "The primary reason for invading Iraq was to eliminate a
              regime possessing WMD stockpiles, from which it could dole WMD
              kits out to terrorists who would without question use them.
              Saddam had used chemical weapons in the past, viewed them also
              as his trump card, and could believably distribute them to exact
              his vengeance against the U.S., which would be under the watch of
              Bush Sr.'s son.  President George W. Bush, having seen the
              stockpile reason vanish, instead insists that, had he known
              everything he knows today, would still have directed the U.S.
              to invade Iraq.  This is absurd."
        \_ ilyas complaining about a thead being deleted..  Welcome back to
           BIZARRO WORLD!!  In other news, the Red Sox are in the world
           series!  -meyers
           \_ Yeah, right.
        \_ It'd be hypocritical for Democrats to decry royalty in American
           politics.  (ref. the Kennedy clan and Camelot)
           \_ Democrats don't choose to get rid of dividend/capital gains/
              estate taxes.  Democrats don't vote for massive deregulation/
              reduced corporate oversight/stripping tort powers.  -scotsman
              \_ You do realize that many people think that cutting taxes
                 and deregulating industry are good things.  And none of
                 this have anything to do with claims of royalty.  Are the
                 Bushes more royal than the Kennedies?
                 \_ Bush: evil.  Kennedy: good.  You need to be sent to the
                    Martin Luther King Reeducation Kamp immediately!
                    \_ You're not very intelligent, are you?  It's okay, I'm
                       sure your parents still love you.
              \_ Yeah Ben, "no progressive taxation -> feudalism" is a new
                 'line of attack' for me.  I am sorry, it's really off the
                 wall. -- ilyas
                 \_ That's not "no progressive taxation".  It's tax the poor
                    and middle class, and give the rich a pass.
                    \_ Which isn't happening, but it makes a good scare
                    \_ Counting all the tax cuts (including captital gains,
                       dividends, and estate), people in the 2nd-lowest
                       quintile got a 17.6% tax cut.  The middle quintile
                       was cut 12.6%, the 2nd-highest quintile 9.9%, and
                       the top quintile 11%.
                       \_ Ah, short term vs. long term.  Numbers are funny
                          \_ Data please.  Or are you just making
                             unsubstantiated claims?
                             \_ estate tax exemption will increase for next,
                                what, 7-8 years until no tax at the 10 year
                                mark.  dividend tax was halved in 2003, gone
                                in 2004. running the numbers for the last
                                2 years is patently dishonest.
                       \_ I don't have a problem with regressive _tax cuts_
                          as long as they result in a system which is closer
                          to a flat tax system, which I believe is fair.
                          (Regressive _tax_ is bad of course).  If you
                          think a flat tax system will lead to feudalism,
                          you are at the fringes of political discourse,
                          sorry. -- ilyas
                          \_ I posted the data to counter the claim that
                             the tax system is now less regressive.  It is
                             if anything more regressive.
           \_ The Kennedys are really great people so its ok.
2004/10/21 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:34274 Activity:high
10/21   E.L. Doctorow, author, on The Unfeeling President:
2004/10/21 [Reference/Military, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:34275 Activity:kinda low
10/21   Does someone have a link to the Daily Show clip with the "weapons of
        mass destruction program related activities" and Dubya using words to
        save the day?  I accidentally deleted my copy.  I notice there are no
        more clips in /csua/tmp/dailyshow.
        \_ if you email me the date i can help you out - danh
2004/10/21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Jblack] UID:34276 Activity:nil
10/21   Thank you for the carpet bomb, freeper troll!  Can we have another?
2004/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34277 Activity:high
10/21   Kerry took the opportunity to attack Bush, making references to
        Bon Jovi songs. "John actually has two songs about the
        administration's policies. He didn't know it, but he wrote a song
        called Bad Medicine' that's about their health care plan. And he
        wrote a song about their economic plan  it's called Living on a
        \_ Kerry is funny, he should be a commedian!
        \_ Yea, Kerry's great idea - turn the medical industry into
           the DMV.
           \_ This is such ripe bullshit that farmers in Wisconsin would like
              to talk to you about buying up your stock to ferment their
           \_ Why is there such hatred about government sponsered medicare
              program? I live in Santa Clara and all the government provided
              service is miles ahead than what I can get if I hire private
              contractor and pay shit loads of money. This including sewage
              cleaning, tree trimming, etc, everything! What do I do now? I
              now checks to see if the city provides the kind of service I
              am looking for, if not, then I go out and get private contractors.
              Remember the key difference, private contractors are there to suck
              your money, governments are there to provide you a service. Don't
              believe all the shit that's coming out of Bush/Cheney's mouth.
              The current administration is what you get if you try to run
              the government like a money greedy blood sucking corporation.
           \_ So you'd rather want the medical industry be like Hilberton (or
              whatever the fuck Cheney's company is called)? Where the only
              answer is money? You want to live? Give me all your money?
2004/10/21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34278 Activity:nil
10/21   CNN still manages to spin Laura Bush's comments  "Laura Bush brushes aside Heinz Kerry's remarks"
2004/10/21 [Uncategorized] UID:34279 Activity:moderate
10/21   Is anybody still having problems with mail being delayed? (root)
        \_ haven't noticed any problem lately.  thanks!
2004/10/21 [Uncategorized] UID:34280 Activity:nil 57%like:30270 54%like:32692
10/21   [ don't delete stuff out of order. -- ilyas ]
        \_ What the fuck??  There was some interesting stuff here that you
           arbitrarily chose to nuke.  Punishing the community for the sins
           of the individual isn't a sound moral philosophy.
           \_ On the contrary.  I didn't arbitrarily choose to nuke anything,
              the guy I am responding to did that.  I don't discriminate
              like him.  Since no one is _really_ getting hurt, I think
              I am probably ok, and NOT going to hell.  If the MAD
              thing really bothers you that much, perhaps you can track
              down the fucker who nukes certain shit but not other,
              and try to make him see the light.  Good luck with that.
              Certain people understand force only.  -- ilyas
        \_ this is not the proper response, even if it is effective
           \_ What is the proper response?  And by proper, do you
              mean moral? -- ilyas
              \_ i offer no suggestion for a proper response; i only offer
                 criticism.  And you know what meaning of proper I mean.
                 \_ It seems everyone on the motd is an expert on ilyas
                    except me. -- ilyas
2004/10/21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:34281 Activity:nil 52%like:34282
Censorship sucks.  Censors doubly so.
\_ Well, you can wring your hands and moan, or do something about it.
   \_ Right!  You can adopt ilya's strategy too!  If censored, then by god,
      become censor yourself!  Yay!  Now no one gets any use out of motd!
2004/10/21 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:34282 Activity:nil 52%like:34281
10/21   And so ends the best motd I've ever seen.  Thank you scotsman and
        ilyas!  Here on the motd, the fringes of political debate come
        together to troll.

Censorship sucks.  Censors doubly so.
\_ Well, you can wring your hands and moan, or do something about it.
   \_ Right!  You can adopt ilya's strategy too!  If censored, then by god,
      become censor yourself!  Yay!  Now no one gets any use out of motd!
2018/03/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:21 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>