Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:20 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/10/20-21 [Uncategorized] UID:34243 Activity:nil Edit_by:auto
10/19   How to out 1337 your friends:
        \_ what's so special about a blinking led toilet seat
2004/10/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34245 Activity:high
10/19   John Zogby breaks down the electorate.  Very interesting regardless of
        what "side" you're on, especially the bits about the "missing center."
        \_ fantastic link! thanks.  this is the stuff zogby is always trying
           to get people to pay to read on his website.
        \_ Good stuff.  In the meantime, has stock in Pepcid and other
           heartburn medicine companies seen an appreciable jump yet?
        \_ Why do bloggers love the word "eponymous" so damn much? seriously
           \_ Bloggers get no respect.  They're using big words to try to sound
        \_ Interesting but to save others the trouble.  This guy went to a
           \_ Because so many blogs are named after their creators in some way?
           Zogby speech and took notes.  These are his notes about what Zogby
           said interspersed with his own opinion.  Here's his summary at the
           end, "My thoughts: Zogby has an obvious personal bias to Democrats
           but I take him at face value when he says his research is
           impartial. His speculation that the race is Kerry's to lose didn't
           convince me, but nor do I buy that it is Bush's to lose either. I
           think the struggle for both candidates now is to go and win the
           race. Otherwise his thoughts on the missing centre certainly make
           sense and gel with my impressions of American politics (admittedly
           from afar). The small amount of undecideds are the key
           battleground, but I'm not sure they will break for Kerry in the
           numbers Zogby expects, especially given the reluctance of many to
           change Presidents during times of war. What is clear is unless the
           margin is reasonable, which is unlikely, there's going to be one
           hell of a mess."
           \_ Thanks for overwriting my post, asshole.
        \_ The key point for me was Zogby saying Gallup was crap.  When
           election time comes, we will see if this is true.
2004/10/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34246 Activity:high
10/20   Fuck.  Motd is boring.  I'll kick it off:  John Ashcroft = teh gay.
        \_ Actually, this the highest S/N ratio motd in quite some time.
           Are you saying a high S/N == boring?
           \_ yermom makes lots of noise
              \_ I'll take that as a yes.
                 \_ What else can it mean when yermom's noise is "Yes ... YES
                    ... YEEEEESSSSS"?
                    \_ She's faking.  Can't you tell?
                       \_ Really?  But she's very wet.
2004/10/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34247 Activity:very high
10/20   "I thought I'd miss my boyfriend when he went to Iraq.
         How ironic that I got drafted and killed!"   -Missie in Miami
        \_ Boy, I'm glad I'm an ordained minister.  To be honest, currently
           you have a bunch of people who at least to some degree want to be
           there, there.  What happens when you get a bunch of angry fuckups
           who don't want to be in the military decked out with all kinds
           of nasty hardware, and royally pissed off about being sent to east
           palookistan to inculate the friendly natives with concepts of
           democracy?  Great prospects.  Add to that that every military guy
           I've spoken to about this (several friends are/were mid-grade
           officers) hates the idea of a bunch of untrained/untrainable losers
           hanging around, breaking the equipment and using up what few spare
           parts they have...  -John
        \_ Why are people worried about a fictional draft?  Only Democrats have
           tried to make it happen.  Kerry actually supports compulsory service
           if you want to go to college, etc.
           \_ Cuz it's getting worse over there and we're running out of
           \_ One of the best recent moments in the campaign was the Bush
              speech accusing Kerry of using "fear tactics," followed by a
              Cheney speech the next day implying that a vote for Kerry would
              result in terrorists nuking a city.
           \_ Dubya has promised not to implement the draft.
              Kerry, on the other hand, just might do it.
           \_ Dubya has promised not to implement the draft.  (The implication
              being he won't let the situation get to this point, and perhaps
              if we really did need people, he would appeal to his base's
              patriotism to enlist in a time of need.)
              Kerry, on the other hand, leaves it as an option.
              \_ "read my lips..."
              \_ Kerry has said explicitely that he wants to increase our
                 forces, especially special forces.  He has also said he wants
                 to increase pay and work on getting our traditional allies to
                 give troop support.  Bush has said he will not implement
                 a draft.  He also has said that we have a strong coalition,
                 that Iraq is getting better, and that the troops are well
                 supplied.  If we need a draft, we need a draft.  I hope we
                 don't.  But believing yet another lie is foolish. --scotsman
              \_ George will institute a skills draft, but rename it to
                 something else, so he can claim to have kept his promise.
                 You heard it here first. -ausman
                 \_ Nah, a draft is a draft is a draft.
                    I don't see you sysadmins getting drafted.
              \_ "We will not have an all volunteer army." -GWB
        \_ Lots of cutesy photoshopping.  Nothing but leftist partisanship here
           \_ Why is satire so hard to grasp?
              \_ Because people are tired of grasping the same thing over
                 and over and over and over and fucking over again.
           \_ If you want to see blatant partisanship, fear tactics, and hate
              mongering, check out the Issue 1 ballot measure race in Ohio.
              \_ Well, if the purpose is to get me to never spend a dime of
                 my money in ohio, and to attempt to boycott products from
                 ohio, i guess it could work.  we are on the road to civil
                 war.  the tinder is there, all that is needed is the match.
                 \_ Oh, BS.  You all act like the US has never seen
                    partisan politics before.  Get a grip.
                 \_ Hehe, if one listens to the stereotypes, liberals will
                    not do so well in a civil war.  They don't have guns,
                    for example. -- ilyas.
                    \_ I'm not particularly liberal (more apathetic) but I
                       think Bush & Co., not to put too fine a point on it,
                       are a pack of cocksmokers, and I have plenty of guns
                       (and ammo!  W00t!)  -John
                       \_ Hey John, can I buy those old sig assault rifles
                          in .ch still?  They are nice. -- ilyas
                       \_ Use motdedit.  Don't squish posts.
                          \_ Sorry--hard to check who's really editing motd
                             with so many goddamm motd archivers running.
                             Ilyas--yes, but only semi-auto.  I'd rather
                             recommend a Karabiner 31--way more fun.  And
                             I have no clue where you'll find GP11 ammo in
                             California.  -John
                    \_ If bush wins, I've already said I'm buying an AK-47
                       and a pistol and training in their use.  I've got
                       pretty good eye hand coordination, and I'm pretty
                       sure I can catch up with the fat ass republican
                       gun nuts in about a year.
                       \_ Not in CA you are not. -- ilyas
                    \_ Well, just keep listening to those stereotypes, ilyas.
           \_ Yes, JFK campaigned on that bogus belief against the Republicans
              back in 1960, when in reality the Soviets were far behind.
                \_ Mr. President, we must not allow a mineshaft gap!
                  \_ MEIN FUEHRER, I CAN VALK!  -John
                   \_ My honorable shaft shall leave no gap in your mineshaft,
2004/10/20-21 [Uncategorized] UID:34248 Activity:nil
10/20   How does it like to work at Intel or IBM?
        \_ It puts the lotion on its skin.
           \_ Speaking of which...
2004/10/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:34249 Activity:moderate 66%like:34528
10/20   All right, we all know how we're going to vote.  The determining
        factor will be how many people get out and vote.
        \_ That, and three months of litigation after the election, yeah.
           \_ You know, any election system that is decided by less than the
              margin of error deserves to have the hell litigated out of it.
              \_ There shouldn't be a margin of error.  It's the only
                 egalitarian voice we have in the process.  It should
                 not be a difficult problem.
                 \_ Any human process will have a margin of error. It should
                    be smaller than it is, but there is no way to eliminate
              \_ fair enough, but this is absurd.  It's time for the federal
                 government to establish some minimum standards for the
                 ability of a ballot to measure the intent of the voter
                 consistently, and then for the states to start enforcing
                 those standards.   How the FUCK the last four years passed
                 without this happening is beyond me.
2004/10/20-21 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:34250 Activity:nil
10/20   Time to short GOOG?  It reached 148.
        \_ Are you actually asking for advice, or is this merely a pretense for
           the possibility that GOOG does crash so you can gloat with a
           "haha. told you so."
           \_ maybe op just wants to tell fellow sodans a good money making
              \_ My prediction:  It will fall later, but shorting will be
                 expensive in the short run. -!op
                 \_ that's what I think too.
2004/10/20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34251 Activity:very high
10/20   The snobbery of the elite liberals continues:
        \_ I wonder what kind of ketchup they serve in the White House?
           \_ Maybe W ketchup. Supposedly bush supporters put out their
              own brand of ketchup because "You don't support Kerry, why
              should your ketchup". I mangled that, but it was something
        \_ *shrug*  It's not like the left side of the theater has a monopoly
           on elite snobbery.
        \_ It's sounds to me more like Mrs. Heinz-Kerry has never had what
           I would define as "a real job."
           \_ What are you talking about?
              \_ A woman worth $1 billion that she inherited should not
                 be talking about who has or has not had a "real job".
                 \_ Are you saying she does not have a real job?
                    \_ Yes, and never has.
                       \_ Have you done any research into her previous job
                          \_ I am sure she worked at Wendy's and did
                             tricks to come up with the last $100 of rent
                             money. She's basically a billionaire
                             philanthropist. She's never had to work.
                             \_ I take that as a no.  Please stop talking
                                out of your ass next time.
                                \_ I think this is particularly ironic,
                                   considering Teresa Heinz later apologized
                                   for not knowing Laura Bush worked as a
                                   librarian and a teacher.
                                   \_ There is no irony.  I'm the same person
                                      who posted that fact at the bottom
                                      of the thread, and the same person
                                      who's been responding to you.
                                      \_ Oddly enough, I'm not "you" nor any
                                         of the other posters on this sub-
                                         \_ Too bad it doesn't change my point.
                                            \_ I was merely pointing out an
                                               incorrect assumption on your
                                               \_ Like, duh!
                                   \_ Hey, even I knew that, and I don't
                                      pay attention to this kind of stuff
                                      and don't care. -- ilyas
           \_ Not sure what Teresa Heinz's job history may be, but she is
              snobbish and a bitch.  So says my brother, who know the Heinzes
              and roomed with Chris Heinz in college.  I think most people
              will say that the W's make better house guests and dinner
              companions, but I don't know what relevance that has to the
              \_ Instead of "snobbish and a bitch", how about:  knows what
                 she feels and will tell you honestly about it instead of
                 backstabbing with gossip?
                 \_ I don't imagine that my brother has been backstabbed
                    by her.  I do know that he has been snubbed by her for
                    not being worthy.  Perhaps you've had a different
                    experience with her.  Care to share?
                    \_ No, I do not have any second-hand experiences from
                       a brother to relate.  I do trust these interviews, where
                       her personality leaks out, more than what your brother
                       says, obviously.
                       \_ You'll understand that I trust my brother's personal
                          experiences more than what I can infer from some
                          staged and prepped interviews.
                          \_ Sure, you can believe your brother, since it's
                             your right to believe what you want to believe.
                             \_ I'm glad you approve.  And I'll be happy to
                                extend to you the same privilege of believing
                                whatever you want to believe.
                                \_ It's an inherent right.  No one is extending
                                   anyone anything.  Duh.
                                   \_ As you wish.  I'll go back to watching
                                      interviews to see if I can infer more
                                      about my politicians from them.
                                      \_ Note I did not posit any request to
                                         you for you to say "as you wish".
                                         I would urge you to evalute interviews
                                         on a case by case basis as well,
                                         instead of implying that they're
                                         all less useful than stories from
                                         your older brother.
                                         \_ Let me see...  On one hand, I have
                                            my brother, who roomed with Chris
                                            freshman year, still exchanges
                                            occasional emails with him, and
                                            has met Teresa several times over
                                            the course of a year of living
                                            with her son.  On the other hand,
                                            I can study Teresa under the
                                            artificial condition of a staged
                                            interview, where she was no doubt
                                            on guard to try to present a good
                                            image of herself, and where she
                                            was likely prepped by handlers
                                            on how to answer the interview
                                            questions and on how to conduct
                                            herself.  Tough choice.
                                            \_ I don't believe we are
                                               covering any new ground.
                                               I've said my piece, you've
                                               said yours.
                                               said yours.  If we were on
                                               O'Reilly, this is where he'd
                                               say, "Now we let the viewers
                                               \_ Tell you what... I'll ask
                                                  Chris if his mom is a snob
                                                  when I see him at my bro's
                                                  wedding next spring.  Would
                                                  that be a definitive enough
                                                  answer for you?  Or will
                                                  you still cling to your
                                                  interview inferences?
                                                  \_ Probably won't help, but
                                                     thanks.  I think what
                                                     could help more are highly
                                                     descriptive stories
                                                     (rather than just the
                                                     concluding label of "snob"
                                                     or "bitch") from which
                                                     people can make their own
                                                     \_ I'll just note that
                                                        it's interesting to
                                                        see how your position
                                                        has shifted over the
                                                        length of this thread.
                                                        \_ Please state in
                                                           one sentence what
                                                           has shifted.
                                                           Please think about
                                                           this sentence
                                                           carefully before
                                                           you post.  Thanks.
                                                           \_ Nope, I can't do
                                                              it in one
                                                              sentence.  Why
                                                              this silly
                    \_ instead of "snubbed by her for not being worthy", how
                       about:  she didn't want to hang out with your brother
                       but wanted to hang out with someone else instead?
                       \_ Oh you were there too!  That must have been a
                          crowded dorm room.
                          \_ Clearly I am suggesting a reasonable alternative
                             to your brother's interpretation of what
                             happened; and clearly everyone understands that
                             your brother was there and I was not; and clearly
                             everyone *should* understand there is weight in
                             both positions.
              \_ Alex Kerry (John's daughter) doesn't like her either.
                 \_ John Kerry married an ice-queen!  He's clearly unfit to be
                    commander in chief!
                    \_ I don't know that the nicest and most friendly people
                       also make the best presidents.  However, attempts to
                       buff up Teresa Heinz's character clearly implies that
                       some people do think so.
                    \_ She's a South African Republican bitch. The fact
                       that she and Kerry have a lot in common
                       (apparently) is scary and worth noting.
                       \_ I thought we had gotten beyond denigrating people for
                          where they came from.
        \_ The conservative spin machine goes into overdrive.  Determining
           there is an insult where there is not:  "Well, you know, I don't
           know Laura Bush. But she seems to be calm, and she has a sparkle in
           her eye, which is good. But I don't know that she's ever had a real
           job -- I mean, since she's been grown up. So her experience and her
           validation comes from important things, but different things. I'm
           older, and my validation of what I do is a little bit bigger --
           because I'm older, and I've had different experiences."
           \_ Actually it's just annoying because she's stupid.  I never
              thought it was an insult, but I usually figure that you
              should keep your yap shut if you don't know what you're
              talking about.
              \_ But apparently you think it's ok to be president of the
                 United States if you don't know what you're talking about.
                 \_ Did I say I was a Bush supporter?  You're an idiot.
              \_ "stupid"... from what do you gather this?  "snobbery"...
                 from what do you gather that?  I smell Limbaugher.
                 \_ To state that you don't know anything about someone
                    and then go on to postulate about what kind of jobs
                    they've held in the past is, well, stupid.  The
                    assumptions she makes about said jobs is snobbish.
                    \_ You are really reading into this too much.
                       You've just been spun by the conservative spin machine.
                       \_ Umm.. the quote is directly above this post.
                          Which part of is has been spun by the
                          "conservative spin machine?"
                          \_ *All* of the quote above.  Taken in context, it
                             is not an attack on Laura Bush.
                             If you don't know what the "conservative spin
                             machine" is, recall "sensitive war on terror"
                             and Dubya having said the same thing.
                             \_ Wow, you have some reading problems don't
                                you.  As I said above, I never thought it
                                was an insult, or an attack, on Laura
                                Bush.  It's just stupid.
                                \_ Nah, I just think THK got used by the
                                   Republican spin machine.  I don't think
                                   what she said was stupid.
                       \_ The AP is a conservative spin machine!  Call out
                          the tin-foil corps!
              \_ What she said makes sense to me.
                 She should realize that Republicans are evil when it comes
                 to taking quotes out of context.
                 It's not stupid not to realize this.
              \_ Some people just seem to have a real skill for pedial-oral
                 insertion. [ don't change this, make your own joke ]
        \_ And the Bush folks miss the point:
           'Karen Hughes, an adviser to President Bush, criticized Heinz
            Kerry's remarks as "indicative of an unfortunate mind-set that
            seeks to divide women based on who works at home and who works
            outside the home."'
           So even Karen Hughes seems to think that Laura Bush has always been
           a stay-at-home mom.
           \_ Republican - spin - machine.
              I doubt Karen Hughes really thinks that.
              On a note of fairness, Teresa Heinz-Kerry issued a press release
              apologizing for not having known that Laura Bush was a
              teacher and librarian.  I doubt Heinz-Kerry didn't know that.
              Democratic - unspin - machine.
              \_ Which sounds more likely?:
                 THK knew Laura Bush's history and decided to talk smack about
                 it in the face of logic.   -OR-
                 THK was uninformed but talked out her ass anyway
                 \_ I'm putting my money on the latter.  THK is very proud
                    of her record as "opinionated" and "outspoken."  In
                    other words, she proud of her ability to talk out her
2004/10/20-21 [Academia/Berkeley, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:34252 Activity:nil 50%like:35307
10/20   UC Berkeley Data stolen (from /., but motd is boring today)
        \_ What kind of computer was hacked?
2004/10/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34253 Activity:very high
10/20   Just read that Theresa Heinz Kerry was born in Mozambique.
        Will this be the first time a first lady will have not have
        been born in the US?
        \_ Damn subversive Mozambicans trying to control the gubmint.
        \_ Louisa Adams was born in England.
           \_ Oh that's the same. Maybe it's not a "real" country
        \_ maybe Kerry will be the Mozambiquian Candidate.
        \_ I just read that John Kerry speaks fluent French.  Is this the
           first time we have a presidential candidate who can speak French?
           \_ Maybe in the last 50 years, but no.
           \_ Is it the first time we've had a candidate who "looks French"?
              \_ He's a Czech Jew, you moron.  Stop being a hater long enough
                 to get your slurs right.
                 \_ I think your sarcasm meter is broken.
           \_ Vote for me!  I'll be the first president to speak fluent
              Korean! I bet that'll bring NK to the table. -jrleek
              \_ Does sky speak Korean?
                 \_ Just certain words.
        \_ Kerry's not going to win, so your question is moot.
                \_ there had to be someone to say this.
                        \_ yes, motd, fair and balanced.
        \_ I know that the first three or four first ladies were not
           born in the United States.
2004/10/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Computer/SW/Security] UID:34254 Activity:moderate Edit_by:auto
10/20   Hi, I've created a toy web site that will hopefully be a bit of
        insightful for people who want to know the "slant-ness" of different
        news source:
        I already bought the domain names, I'm now looking for a place
        to host it. If you would like to help please email me.     -kchang
        \_ Kevin, does it occur to you that averaging faulty sensor
           readings doesn't produce meaningful results?  Maybe if we
           had some sort of pagerank for people this could work. -- ilyas
           \_ the same is true for web votes on,, etc.
              Also read his disclaimer. It's not meant to be scientific at all
              \_ I know.  I am saying why add to the garbage? -- ilyas
                \_ ilyas-- what is trash to you may be useful to others.
                   To say categorically that something has no value,
                   says a lot about you. Secondly, most systems require
                   some level of trust and certainly all systems are
                   subject to abuse. Just look at the electoral college,
                   Gerrymandering, e-vote machines crashing, etc.
                   No system is abuse free -- some systems are much
                   more abuse prone than the others (case in point informal
                   internet vote). It's good to have a starting point
                   somewhere, and in time, refine the system to a point
                   that it is much less abuse prone and that it is
                   generating acceptible results.
                   \_ It does say a lot about me.  It says that I think
                      systems where a vote is trivial to fake, where
                      a single person can trivially cast arbitrary
                      numbers of votes, where the opinions of all
                      people are weighed equally, etc. etc. etc.
                      will produce garbage.  No one will
                      rely on such a system for anything other
                      than generating empty motd conversations.
                      Having said that, I welcome differing opinions
                      of 'others,' because I am curious how
                      polls can possibly be of any use to anyone.
                      I want to be proven wrong here.  If you honestly
                      want to make progress in this area, you can
                      look at social networks/pagerank research,
                      or computer security.  -- ilyas
        \_ Aw, I thought it was going to run news articles through some sort
           of analysis program to compute the results. Instead I find it's
           just an unfiltered click poll.
           \_ that itself is a PhD thesis right there. Context sensitive
              weight analysis.
              \_ Yeah, well I could hope for some arbitrary heuristics at
                 least. A poll isn't right... the name evokes
                 which at least provides human analysis. A <DEAD><DEAD>
                 run by some dedicated individuals who analyze submitted
                 instances of "slant" could actually be an interesting
                 service that could get national attention.
                 \_ Is this thing just a cry for attention?
                    \_ I dunno. But a comparison is natural...
                       hey I would enjoy doing that analysis as part of
                       some funded group. Those people get
                       paid to sit around and analyze the same shit you
                       guys all do on the motd every day.
        \_ thanks for the response guys. The bottom line is that there are
           a lot of improvements and changes that need to be made in
           order to make the results fair and meaningful. I'd love to
           implement some of the features that were suggested, but most
           of them require a lot of time and/or money. Please keep up these
           great suggestions, but even more importantly, send me money
           via PayPay. Once I generate enough interests and funding,
           I'll be able to hire someone to implement these
           features. Thanks. -kchang
           \_ How are we supposed to know you aren't going to spend it all
              on h07 42n ch1x, or hire one to "implement" your features?
              \_ he's gonna hire hot UCLA chicks to implement the features :)
2004/10/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34255 Activity:insanely high
10/20   Hey conservatives- take back your own party please.  A bit of history:
        \_ You must not be familiar with the extensive Christian origins
           of this nation.
           \_ They were mostly deists.  The current regime are fundamentalists.
              \_ Patently false.  Stop reading these atheist internet sites, they
                 are bogus.
              \_ Patently false.  Stop reading these atheist internet sites,
                 they are bogus.
                 \_ Patently false. Stop reading these Christian internet
                    sites, they are bogus.
                    \_ I'm not going to bother to get into this.  If one
                       reads their original writings and speeches their
                       Christianity is obvious, unless you are stupid.
                       \_ Most of them, but not all of them. Jefferson
                          was not.
                          \_ Indeed a great number of them, but the separation
                             of church and state was more than an offhand
                             comment to them.  Remember what they were rebelling
                             against: King George and the COE.  Royalty and
                             theocracy.  Two things our current George seems
                             perfectly happy to bring back.  I for one don't
                             want to see revolution in my lifetime.  I'd much
                             rather see the fucker go peacefully in this
                             election. --scotsman
                             p.s. It's good to see you as blissfully ignorant
                             as ever mr. black.
                             \_ I am amused that professed lovers of
                                democracy start muttering about revolution
                                under their breath as soon as an election
                                or 3 doesn't go their way.  Make up your mind
                                is the tyranny of {the majority|electoral
                                college|etc} good or bad?  I don't know what
                                Bush truly wants to do in his heart of hearts
                                (probably party or something) but the office
                                of the POTUS is a moderating kind of chair
                                to sit in.  The bigger the chair, the less
                                important are the psychological particulars of
                                the ass sitting on it.  No one is
                                complaining about Nancy Pelosi and her brand
                                of Bay Area liberal insanity, although she is
                                very influential in the DNC right now.  If you
                                think Bush wants to bring royalty back in the
                                US, you ve gone off the deep end, sorry.
                                I mean this makes LeRouchies sound reasonable.
                                  -- ilyas
                                \_ Ilya, I'm talking about history and vague
                                   worries when I talk about revolution.  Our
                                   democracy is far from healthy.  The tyranny
                                   of the majority is really the tyranny of
                                   less than a plurality of, oh, 30%?  And by
                                   royalty, we've had this discussion before.
                                   It's not direct governmental plutocracy.
                                   It's handing over power, tax refunds, and
                                   a blind eye to institutions and individuals
                                   who could give a shit about the public.  If
                                   that's what the subplurality of 30% really
                                   want, let alone a majority of the public,
                                   then, yes, I worry. --scotsman
                                \_ (a) Saying "all Bush opponents are talking
                                   about revolution" equates to "all
                                   conservatives are right wing religious
                                   nutcake loonies."  (b) POTUS itself may
                                   eclipse individual personalities, but it
                                   _is_ a tremendously powerful office,
                                   especially when combined with a disciplined
                                   and determined crew, as now.  (c) Who
                                   says nobody's complaining about Pelosi?
                                   She's part of the reason voters are being
                                   forced to choose "less worse" instead of
                                   "better" this year.  -John
                                   \_ re: (a) I was talking about Ben in
                                      particular.  re: (c) Maybe people are,
                                      but I haven't heard anything, and
                                      certainly nothing compared to the volume
                                      of low grade bile directed at Bush.
                                        -- ilyas
                                        \_ (a) be more specific, (c) a lot of
                                           SF residents have loads of low
                                           grade bile for her from when she
                                           was a supervisor.  -John
                                \_ BushCo is interested in maintaining power,
                                   moreso than any other Pres. since LBJ.
                                   The more petty and ridiculous tricks are
                                   pulled by both sides, the less moral high
                                   ground there is to go around, and the
                                   more both sides sound wholely corrupt and
                                   powermongering.  That BushCo has players
                                   who excel at the game while the Dems seem
                                   be playing the Washington Generals merely
                                   stokes the flames against the Pres.
                                \_ That's because a whole lot of these
                                   "professed lovers of democracy" are
                                   actually thinking, "I'm smarter than
                                   everyone else.  I should be in charge."
                                   They're fine as long as everyone else
                                   agrees with them, but if some people
                                   think differently, they must be stupid
                                   and wrong and therefore should not
                                   have a vote.
                                   \_ I am, I should, they are.  Well, most
                                      of them, anyway.  -John
                                   \_ No, Mr. Leek.  It's not some elitist
                                      tendency.  It's a compassionate, dare
                                      I say Christian (raised Lutheran over
                                      here), drive in me that actually cares
                                      about the people and the country.  Did
                                      I claim anyone should "not vote"?  I
                                      would love to see election day made a
                                      national holiday so no one would have an
                                      excuse not to.  I would love to have been
                                      required to take civics in high school
                                      or even jr. high.  If our voter turnout
                                      even began to approach that of some other
                                      countries, I think you'd be greatly
                                      dismayed at how out of touch you are.
                                      In the meantime, I'd suggest that rather
                                      than be insulting, you actually put your
                                      arguments forward in good faith.
                                      \_ I actually not sure how to
                                         respond to this mix of oddness.
                                         I agree that people should take
                                         civics in school, along with
                                         economics.  I'm not sure where
                                         you get the idea that I don't
                                         care about the country or the
                                         people.  I'm not even sure what
                                         \_ I didn't say you don't.  Read what
                                            you said.  See how it's directly
                                            insulting.  Read what I said.
                                            Realize I was talking about myself
                                            in defence of charges of a super-
                                            iority conflict. --scotsman
                                         you're saying I'm out of touch
                                         with.  All I'm saying is that the
                                         road to hell is paved with good
                                         intentions.  I think you're
                                         making assumptions about my
                                         political positions that you know
                                         nothing about.  (And what's with
                                         telling me you were raised
                                         Lutheran?  Am I supposed to care?
                                         Did you know Paolo was rasied
                                         Catholic? So what?  He's still
                 \_ How delightfully low on signal.  Drop trou and produce
                    debunk (and not from some fundie site) or eat crow.
2004/10/20-21 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:34256 Activity:nil
10/20   I need to call long distance (to canada) tonight and somehow my phone
        card does not work.  Since I never signed up for a long distance
        carrier, is there a 1010* service that does not charge a minimum or
        monthly fee?  Ok tnx!
2004/10/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34257 Activity:nil
10/20   Kerry, from 1994, clarifies what constitutes a "global test"
2019/01/19 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:20 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>