Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:13 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
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2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34076 Activity:nil
10/12   Bud Day and Senator Edwards both like lawsuits:
        http://www.classact-lawsuit.com/index.htm
2004/10/13 [ERROR, uid:34077, category id '18005#7.78125' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34077 Activity:nil
10/12   Democrats spending ~2X the money than Republicans on the
        election. Something's wrong:
        http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/12/news/economy/election_ads
        \_ What happens to campaign funds that they don't spend?
           \_ It goes to Bud Day.
              \_ This theme is incredibly lame, but I can't stop laughing.
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34078 Activity:nil
10/12   If you guys get PBS, Frontline has a nice dual bio of Kerry and Bush.
        \_ PBS is very very conservative. In case you don't know Bush
           spent a lot of $ on the History Channel, the Golf Channel, and
           other educational channels while Kerry spent a lot of money
           on channels that tailor to young kids.
        \_ PBS did not interview Bud Day for his advice, so their opinion
           is worthless.
2004/10/13 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:34079 Activity:high
10/12   OK, regarding my stupid idea of a motd book to make money for the
        CSUA below and the resultant copyright argument, I have a more
        fundamental question for the CSUA armchair lawyers (and for Bud Day):
        I was always under the impression that everything you do or say while
        a student/employee of UC, or while using UC property, or while
        thinking erotic thoughts about Ward Connerly automagically becomes
        100% property of UC, enforceable by the club-wielding UC copyright
        brigades?  -John
        \_ http://www.ucop.edu/ucophome/coordrev/policy/8-19-92att.html.
           Professors can publish independent academic papers and own the
           copyrights.  Students own what they produce unless they're
           working on a sponsored project.  UC owns what staff members produce
           unless it's done outside of the scope of their work and no
           university resources are used.  Except as otherwise provided for
           in the policy, UC owns copyright to works made with university
           resources.  -tom
        \_ I heard Fred von Lohmann, EFF senior staff attorney, discuss what's
           at the core of the copyright argument below.  This was informal
           discussion about two years ago, not paid legal advice, but it's
           certainly more accurate than the chicken little ``the sky is
           falling'' bullshit in the thread below.  Someone posed the
           question, ``Since (in the US) copyright springs into existence as
           soon as an original(*) work is fixed(+), aren't people who maintain
           public mailing list archives potentially exposing themselves to
           massive risks of litigation?''  His response was that it's never
           been tested in court so you can't completely discount the
           possibility, but in all likelihood, the act of posting to a public
           mailing list [or, for the purposes of the thread below, forum, e.g.
           soda's motd.public] also means you implicitly consent to the
           archival and reproduction of the post by the forum maintainers.
           As far as I know, it still hasn't been tested in court.

           As to the question of ``all your base are belong to the UC'' that's
           not really a question of copyrights, it's a question of contracts.
           This breaks down to a) What does the intellectual property
           assignment/ownership contract claim the UC (or any employer) owns?
           and b) Which of those claims are actually enforceable under
           California law?  I suspect that the set of enforceable claims for
           employees may differ from those for students, but don't actually
           know.

           So what's enforceable?  If you're using UC property, they
           definitely can claim ownership.  If it's done on your own time (not
           really an issue for students since the UC doesn't own any of their
           time) with your own resources, they can't.  Private companies can
           claim and sometimes enforce ownership of ip made on your own time
           with your own resources if the ip is directly related to their
           primary business interest(s), but I don't see how this could apply
           to the UC since it's a public institution and, cynical jokes aside,
           not really a business.

           In the specific case of the CSUA, it may be tricky to establish use
           of UC resources.  Since the ASUC is independent of the UC, it can
           be argued that the ASUC owns the CSUA's physical equipment, not the
           UC.  Furthermore, I'm doubtful that the UC could support ownership
           claim based soley on the use of network resources.  There's a
           peering exchange in the basement of Evans, and it would obviously
           be ridiculous if the UC claimed ownership of all data that travels
           through that exchange.  I'd be curious to see if there's any
           caselaw specifically addressing ip ownership claims and use of
           network resources.
           -dans

           (*) The bar for original work is really low.  Oft-cited example,
           The white pages are merely a directory listing, and do not qualify
           as original work for the purposes of copyright.  The yellow pages,
           on the other hand, do qualify because they are organized by an
           original scheme.
           (+) Fixed means recorded, written down, or otherwise fixed in some
           medium.  Established caselaw states that data in RAM is considered
           fixed for the purposes of copyright.
           \_ So one upshot of all this is that being a student is better than
              being an employee as far as the legal status of IP you generate.
              Does that mean graduate students at the UC's are considered
              employees, since they're in a union, or are they students?
              This sounds like a great arguement against graduate student
              unionization.  As a graduate student at a private school, I am
              not considered an employee (in spite of the fact that I get paid
              and work fulltime), but the status of my IP, at least in terms
              of patents is identical to that of employees.
              \_ Graduate students are students, but work they do as employees
                 (for example, creating an exam for a course they're working
                 as a GSI for) is owned by UC.  A paper they create or publish
                 is still theirs.  -tom
                 \_ Is UC different from other institutions? At Caltech,
                    for instance, the university has the first rights to
                    any patents, software, etc. and only if they decline
                    those rights can the researchers own them. This is
                    true for papers just as well as any other research.
                    \_ Different institutions have different intellectual
                       property clauses in their contracts so, yes, the UC
                       will likely differ from other institutions. -dans
                       \_ Doesn't UC own the BSD work done by grad
                          students here?
                          \_ Yes, BSD is (C) the Regents.  It was largely
                             written on UC machines and in conjunction with
                             academic work.
2004/10/13 [Uncategorized] UID:34080 Activity:nil 52%like:34102
10/12   Swifties October Surprise?
        Mystery Surrounds Kerry's Navy Discharge
        http://www.nysun.com/article/3107
        \_ For subscribers only. And Bud Day, I would imagine.
           \_ Ride Bud Day
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34081 Activity:insanely high
10/12   I was watching O'Reilly just now and they had cut to Dubya making a
        speech and talking about going to Arizona for the last debate.  I
        noticed that he spoke five words, then looked down at his notes,
        spoke five words, then looked down at his notes again.  He waved his
        eyebrows like "Yeah, I'm bad-ass and the other guy's a wuss", and
        squinted his eyes with his head cocked like "I'm one tough
        motherfucker".  I realize now why dumb people like him so much.  He
        is as dumb as they are, but, like them, ignore reality and think of
        themselves as pretty hot shit and "smarter" than the A-students.
        His short thoughts, punctuated by silence while he reads his next
        prepared line, are very easy to understand, and backed by a
        cockiness that dumb people only wish they could maintain without
        getting smacked down by their own Kerry counter-part.  It's too bad
        dumb people don't have speechwriters either.
        BTW, O'Reilly has taken to saying "President Kerry" a lot.  I think
        we know who he would like to win.
        For Kerry lovers, a Post article today on his cerebralness and
        its effects on his management style:
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28106-2004Oct12.html
        \_ Republican: evil/stupid, Democrat: good/smart.  That's all you have
           to say so why waste all those bits with the rest of your fluff?
           \_ do i have to keep telling you, Republicans are definitely
              not stupid - danh
           \_ I'm not Dubya.  If I said just what you wrote, nothing new would
              have been added.  Instead here is a cohesive, accurate story
              motd readers can take with them.
              \_ No, it's the standard "Bush is a poor speaker" mixed with
                 R:e/s,D:g/s.  There is no "there" there.
                    \_ Is this perl code?
                        \_ Depends on what your definition of "is" is.
                 \_ Yes, the conclusion is well known and stereotyped, but I
                    provide some "how" and "why" to the "what" on a subject
                    many of Dubya's supporters would dismiss as partisan
                    rhetoric.  I offer this story as an accurate reflection of
                    the the bottom-line truth about Dubya's popularity among
                    the dumb, and I leave it to readers to assess that.
                    This difference should have been very obvious to you.
        \_ Making short points and using notes frequently while speaking in
           and of itself is not a bad thing to do.  -John
           \_ Who iss the best CSUA debater/public speaker?
              \_ Making short points and....using notes frequently...(give
                 cocky look) while speaking(smirk)...in and of itself...is
                 not a bad thing...(silence)...to do.  -GWB
                 \_ ...while using a few good points among many bad ones
                    in an argument and presenting them as negative points
                    worthy of ridicule, is.  GWB is a crappy speaker, op has
                    enough material to work with as it stands.  -John
        \_ One might expect the author of such a polemic to write in
           grammatically correct, concise sentences.  Maybe this irony
           escapes you.  Or, perhaps the benighted masses lack the
           sophistication to understand CS elite and John Kerry.  I bet
           the French could appreciate your statement.
           \_ You really need some new material.  Comparing people to the
              French is even more tired than WDYHA?
        \_ For the last time, Bush is not dumbb, just very ignorant (on
        \_ For the last time, Bush is not dumb, just very ignorant (on
           purpose).  Let's not forget he is as blue-blooded as Kerry, the
           whole "country bumbkin" is just an act -- an act that got him
           whole "country bumpkin" is just an act -- an act that got him
           all the way to the White House, why should he change a winning
           strategy -- even now the polls are close, no matter how much
           he fumbles and stumbles during debates and speeches.
           \_ I swung back and forth on this a number of times, hearing him
              answer reporters' questions and making my own judgment, reading
              Woodward's Plan of Attack and Paul O'Neill's The Price of
              Loyalty, then having doubts when I read newspaper articles "the
              President is NOT dumb", but my final conclusion is as posted in
              the thread.
                \_ But Bush did graduate Yale ... He can't be that stupid.
                   \_ lol.  C at Yale = F at Cal, and Bush had a C average.
                      I've been at Yale now for four years and you
                      would not believe some of the stupid shit i've
                      seen here.  I used to live next to GW's old frat house,
                      and I saw one of them pissing on their own porch.
                      *on* the porch, not off the side of the porch.
                      -Yale TA, Cal alum
                        \_ He also got an MBA at Harvard.
2004/10/13 [Uncategorized] UID:34082 Activity:low
**/**   Tons of stupid stuff removed.  My delete line key wore out or I would
        have got the rest.
        \_ WendsDay is Bud Day Day.
        \_ ESC 1000 ctrl-k
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34083 Activity:nil
10/12   Garry Trudeau puts up another long, broken link.  Someone needs to
        introduce this guy to the concept of a URL shortener. Here's the link
        from today:
        http://csua.org/u/9g3
        \_ seems he is struggling to realize he might rather have a blog
           than a comic strip
2004/10/13 [ERROR, uid:34084, category id '18005#10.665' has no name! , , Reference/Tax] UID:34084 Activity:high
10/12   http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/12/pf/pocketbook_proposals
        I'm looking at the differences, and frankly, none of them
        really affects me. In another word, I don't care about
        estate/inheritance tax, education relief, and I'm not in
        the high tax bracket, so it makes little difference who
        I vote for
        \_ Way to think only in the short term and only about yourself!
        \_ Social Security? Capital gains? And, for you especially,
           minimum wage. What about other non-financial issues?
          \_ I for one don't give a damn about foreign policy and
             all that crap. Money talks and everything else matters
             little. I know this is a very narrow minded and selfish
             point of view, but I'm sure I'm not the only person
             thinking this way.
             \_ So you know you're narrow minded and selfish, but you don't
                care?  I'm really glad that I don't know you.
                \_ I am selfish and I don't care.  Actually, that's not true,
                   what I actually think is that anything other than
                   selfishness requires justification because selfishness is
                   natural human behavior.  It doesn't help that altruism is
                   often used as a justification for questionable policy.
                     -- ilyas
                   \_ altruism can also be the most efficient method of
                      selfishness.  come on, you know game theory, surely you
                      understand that a system in which all members strive
                      only for maximum gain over the short-term is ultimately
                      self-defeating?
                      \_ Sure in small systems and if there aren't defectors.
                         Selfishness is still natural, and most of the animal
                         kingdom is selfish (eusocial animals excepted and I
                         should admit they are VERY successful -- ants make up
                         something like 90% of animal multicellular biomass).
                         Eusociality is, of course, selfish from the gene
                         point of view. -- ilyas
                   \_ Government policy has a long term effect, for good or
                      ill, on economic growth. If the stagflation ills
                      of the 70's return, you will with you had paid more
                      attention.
                      \_ I am sorry, I should clarify.  What I meant to say
                         is that it doesn't bother me that I am selfish
                         (I think it's good actually).  Foreign policy of the
                         US is of great concern to me, of course. -- ilyas
             \_ Foreign policy can directly affect how much money you do
                or do not have. This is one reason why you are not in the
                top tax bracket: You are an idiot.
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34085 Activity:high
10/13   Bush killed Superman! shouldn't he be our leader?
        \_ Only if he's willing to take on all challengers to the throne
           in the Thunderdome.
           \_ If Bush loses the election, I would give my left nut to have
              Kerry stop during his acceptance speech and say, "BUST A DEAL,
              SPIN THE WHEEL!"
           \_ Let's see: Kerry rides a bike and skis, and has the reach;
              Bush plays golf and what?  Mind you, Clinton jogs and has weight
              on both of them, so he might stage an upset.
              \_ kerry is also an accomplished aircraft pilot
                        \_ Kerry is also accomplished ... No need for anything
                           after that really.
              \_ Dubya rides mountain bike.
                       \_ falls off
              \_ Hillary murders them all with large spiked ball on chain,
                 takes home Jenna Bush for perverted sex acts
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/India] UID:34086 Activity:high
10/13   GITMO: Terrorist U?
        link:csua.org/u/9g4 (SJ Mercury News)
        \_ "It was not clear why U.S. authorities released Mehsud.
           After he returned to his tribal homeland in South Waziristan,
           he became a rebel leader and has opposed Pakistani forces that
           are hunting Al-Qaida fighters in the semiautonomous area."
           Now why is this a surprise? If I've been detained by some
           country for 2 years, you'll bet your ass when I am freed, I will
           do all I can do get even.
           \_ Thank you for spelling it out. -op
2004/10/13 [Uncategorized] UID:34087 Activity:nil
10/12   John, what exactly do you plan to publish? motd is full of trash,
        what trash do you think is particular to people?        -cynic
2004/10/13 [Finance/Banking] UID:34088 Activity:high
10/13   Ok, this Bush's tax free Health Savings Account coupled with a
        high deductible health insurance is actually not a bad idea.
        My company already has good insurance, but I don't mind if my
        company switches to this new plan, and pass the savings to me.
        My company pays about $350 per month for the current plan.
        link:tinyurl.com/6pdk2
        \_ this plan is bad for individuals with chronic health problems.
           \_ The cruel truth is that every plan is bad for someone.  The
              question is whether it's better to be a little bad for the
              generally healthy or particularly bad for the mostly unhealthy.
              \_ We're not a nation of eugenecists, and we don't leave our
                 unhealthy children to die of exposure. The question is whether
                 the HSA idea makes sense and contributes something that the
                 current system does not.  Move forward, not backward.
                 \_ Do you get a discount when you buy the strawmen in bulk?
                    \_ Actually, it's an argument ad nauseum.  Straw man would
                       be if I said, The Holocaust was wrong, and anyone who
                       agrees should also agree with socialist medicare.
        \_ The math is driving me nuts because I can't seem to lock down
           any numbers.  How much of an annual deductible are we talking about?
           Would this include meds?
2004/10/13 [ERROR, uid:34089, category id '18005#5.98625' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34089 Activity:nil
10/13   Checking the Facts [for tonight's debate] in Advance:
        Paul Krugman    http://csua.org/u/9g5
2004/10/13 [ERROR, uid:34090, category id '18005#7.94375' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:34090 Activity:high
10/13   Washington Post lead editorial on tonight's debate:
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28382-2004Oct12.html
        "We'd begin with the selfish, even piggish behavior today's leaders are
        showing toward the next generation -- in other words, with the budget
        deficit and the growing burden that Social Security and Medicare will
        place on young workers as the baby boom generation retires."
        \_ If you're going to post a link that requires registration at least
           include a generic uname/pw so that us lazy mofos don't have to go
           bother and register.
           \_ I can lynx there from soda without it asking for a username.
              Does it work for you?  (not sure if my cookies file is in use)
                \_ Yes, lynx works.  Lynx is not my preferred browser.
                   \_ Thanks, I thought the Post didn't check anymore.
2004/10/13 [ERROR, uid:34091, category id '18005#6.8525' has no name! , ] UID:34091 Activity:nil
10/13   Post article on Kerry's management style:
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28106-2004Oct12.html
2004/10/13 [Academia/UCLA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:34092 Activity:high
10/13   Is this the most active motd out there?  Are other school orgs' motds
        this contentious and political?
        \_ Well, at <DEAD>csua.ucla.edu<DEAD> they just talk about h07 42n ch1x, and at
           <DEAD>csua.uci.edu<DEAD> they talk about rice rockets and Counter-Strike.
                \_ University of Civics and Integras
                   \_ aka, University of Chinese Immigrants
           \_ Dude, I am so at the wrong motd.  How do I get into the UCI
              CSUA?
           \_ There is no UCLA CSUA.  It became the UCLA LUG. -- ilyas
2004/10/13-15 [Uncategorized] UID:34093 Activity:nil
10/13   can anyone here find an email address for Rodger D Hodge of
        Harpers magazine? I cant seem to find one. Thanks.
        \_ Just a guess: try roger@harpers.org, hodge@harpers.org and
           rhodge@harpers.org
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34094 Activity:very high
10/13   Does the president get "patted down" or have to walk through a
        metal detector anywhere he goes here in America?
        \_ That's no sock in the President's flight suit!
        \_ "What do you think?" because that's a really dumb question.  What,
           he's going to carry a bomb on an airplane and blow himself up?  They
           need to protect Dick Cheney from him?  Can you think of a single
           scenario in which he would need to be patted down?
           \_ Actually, Bush needs to be protected from Cheney, as do we all:
              http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4041
           \_ This argument is just plain stupid. By this reasoning, then
              we shouldn't pat anyone down at the airport.
              \_ Are you really this fuck-stupid?
                \_ He's not, but you are apparently.
                   \_ Please.  He's extrapolating a conclusion based on the
                      absurdly false premise that the office of the president
                      is somehow logically equivalent to everyone else.  This
                      is categorically untrue, and your inability to see this
                      only confirms my first opinion: that you're fuck-stupid.
                   \_ actually you are.
                      \_ no... YOU are
                         \_ wdyha?
                            \_ wdYha???
                                \_ ED!
                                   \_ BUD DAY!
           \_ You're dumb.
              \_ Am I?  OK, give me one good reason to pat down the president.
                 \_ If it's because you/others believe he's more moral than us
                    or because he more than anyone should know not to break a
                    law, that's nonsense because neither he (nor any other
                    person) is. if it's because he's constantly surrounded by
                    secret service officers, then fine, that makes more sense.
                 \_ Dude.  Seriously.  1) he's a republican.  2) he's texan.
                 \_ He loses the election and wants to take congress with him,
                    are you really this stupid?
                    \_ Now _that's_ a Ludlum premise if I've ever heard one:
                       "Silence gripped the Senate as the ousted President
                        lifted the ticking device above his head. 'My God!'
                        someone suddenly cried, 'the President has a bomb!'"
        \_ Why doesn't everyone stop name-calling and just attach explanations
           with their responses. Are we in 3rd-grade still?
           \_ dood UR teh gay
        \_ Excellent question to ask. If he gets
           special treatments, then maybe a terrorist could hire a Bush
           double, have him board airforce one, then have him hijack
           the plane to crash into the Bush mansion.
           \_ How do we know he hasn't already been replaced by a double?
                \_ Because a double would have a noticeable bulge on his
                   back where the battery pack goes.
2004/10/13-15 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:34095 Activity:kinda low
10/13   Here's a stupid question, can I copy playstation2 games using my
        DVD writer? DVD+R? -R? booktype?
        \_ I know DVD-R works but I think you need to get your PS2 modchipped.
           \_ So ps2 will not work with DVD-R or +R unless chipped?
              \_ I think there's some boot-disc hack also, but basically: yes.
        \_ You want to start at http://lik-sang.com--they at least used to sell
           modchips for Xbox/PS2.  I think they had some court trouble, but as
           another hint, an Italian judge ruled recently that modchipping was
           fair use and that Sony/MS could go sod off.  For some more chip
           info, go to http://www.livejournal.com/community/modchips and if
           you have some specific questions, I have a few friends who're
           heavily into this stuff who'll probably gladly help out if you
           drop me a mail.  -John
        \_ How would this even work for PS2 discs that exceed 4.3 GiB?
                                        Wow, you used THE STANDARD _/
        \_ If you have a way of transferring data to a memory card, there's
           a buffer overflow trick that will allow you to boot arbitrary
           programs (there's a similar trick for the XBOX), which I've
           gotten to run software that will backup PS2 games to a maxtor
           hd that hooks into the PS2 network adaptor.  There's supposedly
           programs that will boot DVD-Rs on the PS2, so if you can load
           that program using the boot trick, you won't need to mod.
           Please post if you can get this to work. Thanks
2004/10/13-14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll/Ilyas, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:34096 Activity:high
10/13   UC Berkeley to follow UCLA's lead in bending over for RIAA:
        http://wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,65227,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_8
        \_ go Bruin! Land of the happy, home of the health-image
           conscious and sexy chicks!
           \_ I hate you Paolo. -- ilyas
           \_ If you are not Paolo, you are channeling his unclean spirit.
              P.S.  I hate you.  -- ilyas
              \_ who is paolo, tell us about paolo, and why do you hate me?
                 \_ Paolo is pst@csua, mostly known to the motd crowd for
                    pulling down the motd after 9/11 because his gf at the
                    time 'felt threatened.'  I hate you because you sing
                    praises to the UCLA soul, which I hate. -- ilyas
2004/10/13 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:34097 Activity:high
 10/13   What I think about when German John posts to motd:
        http://waroffice.us/aryan.htm
        http://www.greystoneonline.com/prodimgs/kclah21.jpg
        http://www.greystoneonline.com/prodimgs/kclah2b.gif
        http://www.attic-tabletop.de/bilder/battlehonours/Staffcar.jpg
        \_ what happened to the swastica?
        http://web.my8d.net/z6f9f/pic22/Mer/Mer_4396_hitler_3.jpg
        http://web.my8d.net/z6f9f/pic22/Mer/Mer_4393_770fox.jpg
        \_ Yeah, don't let the fact that he's Swiss get in the way of your
           ridiculous rhetoric.
           \_ Can he make good quesadillas?
              \_ I bet BUD DAY makes GREAT quesadillas.
              \_ No, but he yodels with the best of them.
                \_ Er, oil-of-olay-deedle-dee, when my nazi gold tooth
                   fillings don't get in the way.  -John
2004/10/13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:34098 Activity:very high
10/13   Insurgent Alliance Fraying in Fallujah
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28105-2004Oct12.html
        The proposal the [insurgent] delegation took back to Fallujah calls
        for surrendering control of the city to the Iraqi National Guard. U.S.
        forces would remain outside the city unless the lightly armed
        government forces were attacked. But first, all foreign fighters must
        leave the city, and the foreigners are adamantly and publicly opposing
        the plan. Their representative voted against it in a meeting last week
        of [Falluja]'s ruling mujaheddin shura, or council of holy warriors,
        which supported the peace proposal, 10 to 2.  The local insurgent who
        cast the other negative vote was later persuaded to change his mind,
        residents say. ... substantial support remains for the foreigners,
        especially given the number of civilian casualties caused by U.S.
        airstrikes.
        [Yes, a way out.  Local insurgents can say they're working with Allawi
        to kick out the foreigners, saving face, while U.S. soldiers continue
        to kick ass and Iraqi National Guard troops finally stop running away.
        By "continue to kick ass" I mean suffering a small number of casualties
        per month from IEDs, while still decimating any enemy who doesn't run
        away.  This doesn't kill insurgents, though -- the Iraqi National Guard
        is the ONLY way out.  We tried this before, and it was called
        Vietnamization.  But, unlike the peasantdom of Vietnam, Iraqis know a
        secular government and would like to have one again, not an al Qaeda
        proving ground. -liberal]
        \_ I'm always up for more articles on U.S. soldiers kicking @$$.
           More links please.
           \_ go pick up the atlantic monthly and read
              "5 days in fallujah"
              http://marinecorpsmoms.com/archives/000096.html - danh
           \_ I couldn't find the article I was looking for.  Basically
              it's about how the U.S. went all out in Samarra and the
              insurgents lost since the U.S. didn't leave time for
              them to regroup.  Also, the Iraqi National Guard didn't run
              away this time.
        \_ I don't give these type of articles much credence, whether they
           express opinions either way.  I doubt very much that reporters
           have a handle on what is going on there.
           \_ You know, I did a http://news.google.com search on Karl Vick (reporter
              who wrote the article), and I see a lot of pieces that make
              America look good.  Could be a coincidence - maybe not. -op
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34099 Activity:high
10/12   Given that Bush is so inarticulate and stupid, how in the
        world did Al Gore lose 4 years ago?
        \_ the media decided to leave the "GORE SIGH" on endless
           repeat. - danh
        \_ because he's very "likeable" and "personable" in person. or
           so they say.
        \_ Gore isn't as uber as Kerry.  People thought you could have a dumb
           leader at the top and talented lieutenants running the show.
           With small government, people thought this was possible.
           How much brains does it take to cut taxes and ignore the deficit?
           By the way, Gore won the popular vote by over 500,000 votes.
           \_ My midwestern aunt and uncle had this exact view.  They told me
              a story about Gore making a speech to a local union in which
              he mentioned his mother singing him a particular union song to
              him in his cradle, and the song wasn't actually penned until the
              70s (or thereabouts).  They thought Gore was untrustworthy, and
              Bush was stupid but "the president can't make any bad decisions,
              he just has to be a good man".
                \_ all right did your midwestern relatives actually
                   SEE AND HEAR gore saying this?  or are they repeating
                   what they heard from the media?  gore used to joke
                   that the lady who was a DNC delegate 13 times (she's 88)
                   used to sing him to sleep with the union label as
                   a lullaby.  it's obviously a JOKE, who would seriously
                   sing that song as a lullaby to a baby?  i don't know
                   why the media never got it.  i think gore never
                   adequately explained his joke because it seems too
                   retarded to have to explain humor to living breathing
                   human beings.  that's why i really doubt your relatives
                   heard gore say those exact words, you can dig up tapes
                   of Gore speaking to teamsters, he tells the joke,
                   they all laugh, because he is just joking about his
                   deep democractic union roots, he's not being serious.
                   oreilly joked about being totally high on the jon
                   stewart show last night, when are you going to report
                   him to the ATF? - danh
                   \_ I believe they told me it the info came from a friend.
                      I should also note that I was a Dean guy before
                      supporting Kerry, and that this aunt and uncle are
                      perhaps the nicest, smartest, and wittiest relatives
                      I have.  I'm 25 and they're still sending me bday cards,
                      and I'm going to thank them for it in a letter that
                      probably includes the post above about the last 4 years
                      of Bush.
              \_ I hope voters find a solid, noble core in Kerry, like
                 what's described in the Washington Post article on him
                 today.  Gore had all the best intentions, but you can't
                 help but wonder if there was something to the latent Big
                 Mac attack he developed after he lost the election.
                 \_ God, this is such rotten revisionism.  Gore had a solid,
                    noble core, and the GOP repetition campaign ("He said
                    he invented the Internet!" "He says they based Love
                    Story on him and Tipper!"  "He's not honest!") and his
                    own advisers ("Press the attack!"  "Beat up on Bush!")
                    killed the campaign.  So the man ate a few burgers and
                    grew a beard after being outplayed by loudmouths and
                    anti-intellectuals.  What's more human than that?
                    You want a candidate who was brilliant but an awful
                    people person, look no further than Bill Bradley.
                    \_ By the measure of 9/11, IMO Gore would have done an
                       excellent job had Osama struck on his watch.  I'm just
                       trying to describe some intangible that led Dubya
                       voters to vote for Dubya instead of Gore.
        \_ Because Gore didn't just beat Bush in the debate, he beat him up.
           Americans hate bullies.  That's why it looks so bad when Bush cuts
           off the moderators.
        \_ Gore was stiff and boring and unlikeable. Kerry, while a bit of
           a blue blood, is much more personable. -Nader voter in 2000
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34100 Activity:very high
10.13   Why doesn't Kerry listen to scientists?
        368 Economists Including Nobel laureates against Kerry
        economic plan
        http://nationalreview.com/nrof_comment/carter200410131105.asp
        \_ please point out one goddamn economist who is in favor
           of proposed bush economic policies, and for bonus points
           name one that didn't appear in a matthew broderick movie - danh
           \_ I don't watch many movies, most of them are worthless,
              so your reference is lost on me.
        \_ What do these laureates propose as an alternative? If they
           think what Bush is doing is good (bankrupting the government)
           then we don't need to pay attention to them.  This article sounds
           like a Bush stump speech.  Do these laureates know that Bush has
           proposed $3 trillion worth of new spending (even more than Kerry)?
           \_ that's not $3 trillion of "new spending", it's a $3 million
              bottom-line figure, most of it from tax cuts -> reduced govt
              income from taxes, and the $3 million is "as much as", I wouldn't
              say "over" as Krugman does.
        \_ "Bush-Cheney '04 today announced...."
           What, PRNewsWire was busy?
           The actual letter:
           http://csua.org/u/9gs (NRO)
        \_ Why should anyone listen to scientists unless they are
           discussing their field of expertise? Scientists are usually out
           of touch with reality. I work with a lot of scientists and they
           are just one class of smart people. Why not listen to doctors,
           generals, businessmen, or anyone else? A Nobel prize does not
           mean they know crap about anything outside of their field.
        \_ wow, looks like Dubya really needed the help today!
           where were these guys several months ago?
        \_ 70% of academic economists rate Bush as bad or very bad.
           http://economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3262965
           \_ This is much stronger than the "368 Economists" piece, especially
              if you consider the methodology used by http://economist.com.
              I hope if Dubya attacks with "368 Economists", Kerry rebuts with
              http://economist.com.
              \_ The sample from NRO is 365, the economist 56.  Interesting
                 conclusions you draw from a sample 7 times smaller, and
                 no Nobel Laureates.
                 \_ omg, please re-read what you wrote, and if you still
                    believe everything you wrote, say you're serious.
                    \_ You present 56, NRO presents 365.  You would
                       have preferred the authors submitted it as a
                       'survey'?
                       \_ So, you're serious about your original statement?
                          Yes/No, please.
                          \_ completely, yes.  Samples are highly skewed
                             in both cases.  I, as the op, posted
                             the article as a joke, to illustrate the
                             stupidity of these types of posts.  This
                             nuance seemed to escape you.
                             \_ - NRO presents 368 signatures of which 100%
                                agree with the statement.  There was no
                                alternate petition circulated, nor was there
                                a recording of the number of economists
                                who disagreed with the statement.
                                - http://economist.com took a RANDOM SAMPLE from among
                                the journal referees of the American Economic
                                Review.  Of this random sample, 70% of
                                respondents rated Dubya's 1st-term economic
                                policies as bad or very bad.  Of this random
                                sample, 27% rated Kerry's economic plan as
                                bad or very bad.
                                - This major error in interpreting statistics
                                seems to have been lost on you, or, you didn't
                                read the http://economist.com methodology, which
                                I mentioned several replies up.
2004/10/13 [Recreation/Activities] UID:34101 Activity:nil
10/13   Does JFK play golf? (either JFK)
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34102 Activity:nil 52%like:34080
10/13   Mystery Surrounds Kerry's Navy Discharge
        http://csua.org/u/9gq
        Will the media investigate?  Form 180?
        \_ let's think about this.  kerry was in the service until
           1972 i believe?  the link you post, from our friends
           at the NY Sun, says the board of officers met in 1978.
           what the hell were they doing for 6 years? - danh
           \_ Carter's first executive order in office was to pardon
              all questionable discharges (deserter, etc.).  As you
              might imagine this created quite a political uproar.
              The other possibility is he transitioned through the
              Inactive Reserves.
        \_ Horse.  Dead.  Please spare the horses!
2004/10/13 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34103 Activity:nil
10/13   Long post on What Bush Admin Has Done moved to
        /csua/tmp/whatbushhasdone for the curious.  I understand what you're
        saying, and I think it's important.  I don't think it needs to crowd
        an already overflowing motd.
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:34104 Activity:moderate
10/13   See what happens when you betray your leader, O'Reilley?
        http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1013043mackris1.html
        Seriously, though, I didn't think it was possible for me to feel any
        ickier about O'Reilley.
        \_ omfg, why now, when O'Reilly is leaning more moderate
           (moderate == getting smart liberals/moderates on the show and
           saying "We'll let the viewers decide", instead of dumb liberals
           he yells at)
        \_ Obviously you know nothing about O'Reilly.  I don't like him,
           but occassionally watch him.  He has never, nor was ever
           a conservative.  He has always said as much.  He is a Democrat
           in the pre-1960s vein, like Jack Kennedy.
           \_ O'Reilly says he's okay with "traditionalist", but he says
              "independent" is more accurate
              \_ Can someone tell me what any of these terms mean?  What's a
                 traditionalist, and what were the Dems like pre 1970's?
                 (Aside from racist and war-mongering.)
                 \_ On most issues Dems pre 1960's were like the Repubs.
                    of today.
                    \_ With a side order of socialism. (LBJ)
                       \_ Unfortunately today most Repubs, especially in
                          Congress, also have that trait.
2004/10/13 [Uncategorized] UID:34105 Activity:nil
10/13      BAD DAY!!!
                \
                  _____/\_/\______
                 "~~~,-.,~. ",~~~~"
                    (@ (@  ) \
                     -="=-"   \
                    /          \
                  ,'     ,.-:   \
               `,' `. ,~'   !    \
              -( :";|' ,+,  '     \
                \`'   C_.','
                '`---~--~"
                       |
              .
2004/10/13-15 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:34106 Activity:moderate
10/13   Got into a discussion with someone over how I like the
        Times New Roman font when it is created by LaTeX, but not
        in MS Word. He then claimed they have to look the same if
        they're the same font, but they clearly look different.
        What is the explanation for this?
        \_ The MS fonts have hooks for inserting font viruses and trojans
           which changes their look slightly.
        \_ Are you sure it's not Times vs. Times New Roman?  Spacing might
           might be an issue too.  Also, unless LaTeX gets its fonts from
           .ttf files, they are not the same font. (They might be the same
           typeface, though.)
                \_ I just use the default font. Also what is the difference
                   between font and typeface? -op
                   \_ A font is a computer file that represents a typeface.
                      Fonts are considered computer programs and are
                      protected by copyright laws in the U.S. (but typefaces
                      are not).
                   \_ i think the latex default font is "computer modern"
        \_ The spacing might be different.  Word doesn't do proper kerning.
           Have you done a side-by-side comparison?
           \_ I just compared Times in latex/Word and they look nearly
              identical (including spacing).  The exceptions I've found are
              cases like "fi" which are reduced to a single glyph in latex but
              not in Word.
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34107 Activity:high
10/13   When is the debate?
        \_ NOW, MORON
        \_ GWB is a lot more calm, composed, and articulate
           than ever before. I'm very very impressed.
           Kerry-- waaaay too much negativity. It's looking
           ugly...
           \_ How 'bout "waaay too much reality"..
                \_ Freedom is on the march, assholes!!!!!!!!!!!
                   \_ MARS, BITCHES!!!
        \_ a very well scripted debate, with a lot of cooperation between
           Bob the moderator and GWB. I wonder what's in it for Bob.
        \_ sorry but this debate is unfair. It's so obvious that the
           moderator is on the Republican side.
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34108 Activity:nil
10/13   KERRY AND BUSH BOTH ARE TWO SIDES OF THAE FACE OF SATAN TO DESTROY
        WORLD ECONOMY!
        http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=67&contentid=1285
2004/10/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34109 Activity:nil
10/13   Kerry loves saying "the president didn't answer the question",
        which pisses Bush off every time. Great country!
2004/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:34110 Activity:very high
10/13   "A Fox News Channel producer sued O'Reilly for sexual
        harassment Wednesday,Oct. 13, 2004 alleging her boss had
        phone sex with her against her wishes three times."
        http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=163601
        WTF? How do you have phone sex with someone "agianst their
        wishes"???
        \_ Duh, threatening to sue her unless she submitted to it.
           After all, he was her boss.
           \_ sue her?
              \_ s/sue/fire
        \_ Who has put pubic hair on my Coke?
        \_ Phone rape?  "If you hang up now I'll fire you!  Now, about
           my huge dick....."  Of course, phone sex could be
           literal penetration by a phone, which is possible against
           one's will....
           \_ Owiee!
        \_ If you read the complaint, he called her up and started talking
           sex and vibrators while masturbating.  Fox preemptively countersued
           for libel.  One argument against her claim is that she didn't suffer
           any "adverse employment action".  OTOH is she had suffered 'AEA'
           Fox could claim it she was just suing for revenge.   Also, the
           complaint has long quotations by O'Reilly which implies she taped
           his phone calls.
2004/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34111 Activity:very high
10/13   As of 10/13, 8:45PM, Kerry seems to be leading the polls
        with the exception of http://freerepublic.com, a republican dominant
        troll site with a lot of Bush fanatics (Kerry, Bush):
        http://cbsnews.com     84.79%
        http://cnn.com         (no longer available for some reason)
        http://foxnews.com     63%, 36%
        http://latimes.com     96.7%
        http://msnbc.com       74%, 26%
        http://freerepublic.com        2%, 72% (republican site)
        \_ You need to be registered to vote on http://freerepublic.com.
           Frankly, I'm too scared to register.
        \_ As I repeat for the third time, "thanks" goes to the DNC e-mail
           spam.  If you're on the e-mail list, it tells you go go vote online
           among other things.
           spam.  If you're on the e-mail list, it tells you to go vote online
           among other things.  After the embarrassment that was the first
           debate, Democrats got really enthusiastic about online voting.
           \_ Same thing happens on the RNC email list.
        \_ Calling freerepublic a "republican site" is a little misleading.
           It's a site for wingnuts like the guy who in an earlier motd post
           referred to the republicans as being too socialist.
           \_ Only in Bay Area does espousing the political beliefs of the
              Founders earn classification as a "wingnut".
              \_ Only in your diseased mind does freeper frothing reflect
                 the political beliefs of the Founders.
                 \_ You know, I find it amazing how frequently freerepublic
                    shows up as a dead horse to be kicked on the motd.  Truly,
                    have you no better things to do than kick them over and
                    over again to make yourself feel better?  I don't kick
                    Michael Moore, or Rush Limbaugh I just ignore them.
                    On an unrelated note, I love how when meyers et al bitch and
                    moan about how the republican congress is protectionist,
                    and spendy, and passing pork bills, that's considered
                    legidimate criticism.  While at the same time
                    if some freeper calls them socialist (they are probably
                    complaining about the same things) he is a wingnut.
                    You people are amazing. -- ilyas
                    \- does anybody remember who used to keep saying
                       "the pentagon (procurement) is the last bastion of
                       stalinism?" --psb
2004/10/13-15 [Consumer/CellPhone] UID:34112 Activity:nil
10/13   EMF radiation paranoia time! Do you carry active cell phones in your
        pocket? Do you take any steps to keep the phone the recommended
        1.5 cm or whatever from your body? Do you use a "hands-free" ear
        phone thing? If so are you aware of reports that those can act as
        an antenna and transmit significantly more radiation into your head?
        \_ No. Yes. Yes, a regular earphone adapter that transmits sound down
           a wire. Yes, but not as much as a bluetooth handsfree thingie,
           and nowhere near as much as the phone itself.
2004/10/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34113 Activity:high
10/13   Guess the Kerry strategy of giving Dubya everything just to get
        three (not two) debates was the correct one.  The hilarious part was
        that Dubya was playing hard to get on the town hall debate, when
        that was the one that he was clearly going to do best in - especially
        with the rule about no back-and-forth with audience members.
        Even when Dubya was complimenting his wife on speaking much more
        understandably than he could, I got the feeling he was acknowledging
        not meeting the high expectations of his supporters on the debates
        more than showing humility.
        \_ Right... Kerry, the candidate who "married up", can instantly
           spot those who make "200,000 or more", wants to effectively
           turn health care into the DMV, views terrorists as a
           "nuisance", wants to give nukes to Iran, and subjects his
           foreign policy to a "global test".  It would be a funny
           joke if this guy wasn't actually a presidential candidate.
           \_ No, no partisan distortion field here.  Nopenopenope.
           \_ do you get all of your talking points straight from Rove
              or something? even the hacks at NBC news called Bush out
              for misrepresenting the Kerry "nuisance" quote, but at
              least Bush wasn't just plain lying like he did when he
              claimed he has never said he wasn't particularly concerned
              about Bin Laden post-9/11
2017/09/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:13 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>