Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:11 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2004/10/11 [Politics/Foreign/Canada, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:34024 Activity:very high
10/8    I have a greencard but don't have a US citizenship. Can I get
        in/out of Canada using just my greencard+driver's license?
        Do I need my passport? Is there anything I have to do at the
        Taiwanese embassy?                              -Taiwanese
        \_ I was under the impression that US citizens were now expected
           to present a passport at the border.  The last time I crossed
           the border I was stopped several miles *inside* the U.S. in
           upstate new york and asked by a soldier to present a passport(
           I'm a U.S. citizen).  Paranoia is the word of the day right now.
           And with Bush slipping in the polls, I would expect Tom Ridge
           to be announcing lots of vague terror threats in the next few
           weeks.  If I were you, i'd bring whatever documentation I could
           possible think of, and find a place ahead of time to stay in
           possibly think of, and find a place ahead of time to stay in
           canada after you get stuck there.
        \-for mexico and canda greencard will get you back into the
          country ... when i have gone to mexico, they have sometimes
          stamped my passport. if you were a brown person, i would
          probably take a passport to mexico. i think it's generally
          not a bad idea to take the passport along.
        \_ 1. I wouldn't do it.  I would suggest you get visa anyway.
           2. just a kindly reminder.  There is no such thing as Taiwanese
              embassy.
                \_ I know, it's called the Taiwanese Cultural Center.
                   I said embassy because most people here don't know
                   about it.
        \_ ditto above.  I think that technically as a citizen, you can just
           present your driver's license, so you might be able to get away
           with just your greencard and license.  I've known a couple people
           who went away for holidays in the last two years and were unable
           to get back in for several weeks.  Granted, these were people with
           student visas who went home to India.  Canada might not be a
           problem... but I'd do a little online research just in case.
        \_ You need your Taiwan passport to get in/out of country and a
           green card to enter the US.
        \_ I read about this on the CIS website - since Mexico & Canada are
           NAFTA countries, as a permanent resident you are allowed up to
           30-day per stay without Mexican/Canadian visa. It's a good idea
           to bring your passport along though - the U.S. Border Patrol would
           want to see it.
           \-hello i posted the original followup but another fellow makes
             a good point about the new chimpy world order ... now i would
             take my passport for sure.
2004/10/11 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34025 Activity:moderate
10/11   Injured, angry, determined, Swiftees unite to fight Kerry
        http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041011-123955-3725r.htm
        \_ Awww.  Reality's a bitch, huh?  My heart bleeds for them.  Good
           thing the Moonie Times and Sinclair broadcasting are still around
           to promote their agenda... because everyone else has stopped
           listening.
           \_ Your media tried for a long time to ignore them and is doing
              it again.  Nothing new about that.  Your media never listened
              in the first place.  I'll take the word of 250 soldiers over
              one politician anyday.
              \_ 250 soldiers who say what?  That they resented the anti-war
                 movement?  No credible source has come forth saying that
                 Kerry did anything dishonorable during his service.  Get over
                 it already.
              \_ "Your media?" Do you mean the American media? They spent
                 far too much time on it in the first place. You will not
                 be able to ressurect that 30 year old zombie, everyone
                 has already had their say. Why don't you want to talk about
                 issues that matter to America today: Iraq, the economy,
                 health care, the war on terror? Is it perhaps because
                 with the possible exception of the latter, they are all
                 losers for Bush? What are you going to do on Nov 3 after
                 your hero loses?
2004/10/11 [Politics/Domestic/California, ERROR, uid:34026, category id '18005#11.875' has no name! , ] UID:34026 Activity:nil
10/11   http://www.nbc25.com/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=2536
        \_ Republicans call Democrats and lie, telling them they aren't
           registered and won't be allowed to vote this election.
        \_ Nothing new, Dems are the party of the gullible.  Dem.
           readers of the MOTD, you are not registered and won't
           be allowed to vote.  Ignore any voter information you
           receive in the mail, if you can read.  Thank you.
2004/10/11 [Uncategorized] UID:34027 Activity:nil
10/11   Derrida est mort.
        \_ good riddance.
        \_ Mais, qui est Derrida? (Founder of deconstructionism)
           \_ Derrida is dead.  Who is Derrida?
              (my guess)
2004/10/11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:34028 Activity:moderate
10/11   Welcome back, motd conservative crank!  Sorry to see that you don't
        have motd access over the weekend; the motd's so boring without your
        rants!
        \_ Who do you think you're talking to?  Do you really think there's
           only one conservative here?  And yes, I agree with you.  Anyone
           who disagree with your political philosophy and posts anything
           that might contradict you is a crank and a ranter.  It must be so.
        \_ I agree, the motd just isn't the same without him.  Back in my
           BBS days I used to read FIDOnet only because of a highly
           entertaining right-wing crank.  I wish I could remember his name -
           his sole purpose in life seemed to be arguing that women should
           not have the vote.  His extremely "logical" arguments were usually
           backed up by extensive quotations from Aristotle and Plato.  No
           counterargument or attempt to change the subject could impede
           his quest to stamp out the Great Evil of Women Voters.  When
           he vanished, FIDOnet was never the same.
           \_ I understand completely.  I sometimes think the only reason I
              read and posted to Usenet was to stir up more bizarre logic.
              Somehow this whole CraigsList board thing doesn't do it for me.
              Too much of the "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" vibe.
2004/10/11 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34029 Activity:very high
10/11   More on the Sinclair hit-piece, and how it's connected to Bush.
        You gotta hand it to Karl Rove, he's got the market cornered on
        balls.
        http://csua.org/u/9eu (blog entry with links to LA Times and
        Disinfopedia)
        \_ Sinclair is without question pro-Bush, but they would argue that
           the material they wish to air is news/documentary, not a campaign
           ad.
           I think all that's going to happen with F9/11 is it will stay
           on Pay-per-view for $9.95 - and no one's going to watch.
           \_ I disagree with you that this is a documentary or a news
              report.  What do you base this assertion on?  It just sounds
              like a two hour Swift Boat ad.  As for F9/11, it just makes
              me go "meh."  Why not show "Going Upriver" instead?  Moore
              is overexposed at this point.
              \_ You mean, what do they base "their" assertion on.
                 In their view, this documentary presents the truth:
                 Kerry's anti-war behavior weakened the morale of soldiers
                 on the ground, POWs, and it was also illegal to negotiate
                 with the enemy without official permission.
                 \_ That does not mean that it is not a campaign ad.  By the
                    way, the DNC is filing an FEC complaint about this.
                    I think they're essentially going to file an argument
                    that this represents a multi-million dollar campaign
                    contribution.
                    \_ I agree the Sinclair move is free pro-Bush advertising.
                       This won't even put a scratch into the amount of free
                       pro-Kerry/anti-Bush advertising the media gives the
                       left every single day.  --conservative
                       \_ How 'bout that big "policy speech" Bush announced
                          after the VP debate which was actually a stump
                          speech?  Lap it up, liberal media!
                       \_ Don't forget the free pro-Bush/anti-Kerry advertising
                          the media gives the right every single day.
                          \_ That damn partisan reality! No WMDs, etc.  If
                             only they could invent a station that would spin
                             the bad facts and make Bush look good.  We could
                             call it "Fox News".  Worth investigating!
                             \_ Saying "No WMD" is liberal bias. After all,
                                he wanted WMD, so it's entirely irrelevant
                                whether he had them or not!
                                \_ ... you are making my head explode.
               \_ Even assuming it does qualify as campaign advertising,
                  Sinclair has offered the DNC equal time.  The DNC has said
                  that it will not offer anything for broadcast.
                  \_ What is your source for this? I heard that Sinclair
                     invited Kerry to offer a "rebuttal," not equal time.
                     If they offer equal time, just let them run 9/11.
                     That would be fair and I am sure Michael Moore
                     would go for it.
                     \_ I believe the people who own DVD rights to F9/11 would
                        not let it run on TV, because, you know, they believe
                        they might run the risk of not selling as many DVDs.
                        this might run the risk of not selling as many DVDs.
                        -- You're right about "equal time", though.  Reading
                        again, Sinclair offered Kerry the "opportunity" to
                        sit on a panel after the show to dispute the claims.
                        This doesn't seem like equal time to me, even though
                        Sinclair says it is.
        \_ It is not too late to stop this blatantly illegal move by
           Sinclair. Write the FCC and your Senators and demand that
           they take action.
2004/10/11 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34030 Activity:low
10/11   http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=44657
        John Eisenhower (Ike's son) writes about why after 50 years as a
        Republican, he's voting for John Kerry.
        \_ and here's the non-broken version of the link:
  http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_show.html?article=44657&archive=1

[yes, very nice, censor the current topic and instead repost some old
 tom/ilyas flame fest.  way to show tom isn't a censor and is a nice guy]
2004/10/11 [Uncategorized] UID:34031 Activity:moderate
10/11   \_ Tom, like you, makes occasionally reasonable, if unpopular
           points about contentious topics.  He can be very cynical
           about it, but I have rarely seen anyone respond to his
           arguments recently with anything but ad hominem bullshit.
           Please restrict this sort of shit to the real anonymous
           losers who troll the motd.  Anyway, the motd's mainly
           become more pleasant because even the negative, wrong
           replies are at least decently reasoned and articulated.  -John
           \_ No, tom is a small-time asshole.  Most of his 'points' are one
              line zingers of the 'you are an idiot' variety.  I don't
              think he is cynical or anything like that but an asshole he is.
              People respond to him in an ad hominem way because that's how
              he is 90% of the time himself.  Note how people don't do
              that to me so much anymore, despite, as you say, the fact that
              I make 'unpopular points.'  Tom himself is unpopular, not his
              points.  -- ilyas
              \_ I agree.  ilyas is a highly entertaining loony - tom is just
                 an annoying crank.
                 \_ ilyas is a whiny bitch who deletes the motd.
                    \_ No.  Part of what makes him so entertaining is his
                       "coldly logical" explanations for his temper tantrums.
                       If he was a whiny bitch, he wouldn't be worth having
                       around.
                       \_ ilyas is someone who can never admit that he is
                          wrong, even when proven so.
                          \_ which is the #1 qualification for being a Highly
                             Entertaining Loony!
                          \_ he did admit recently that he may accidentally
                             overwrite posts, and I respect him for that
                             statement
                             \_ Uhm, why?  It's not all that meaningful if
                                he's not going to change his behavior to
                                correct a problem he seems to have.
2004/10/11-12 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:34032 Activity:nil
10/11   Is there anything like MAB (the Mozilla Amazon Browser) for, say,
        job sites, or financial information?
2004/10/11 [ERROR, uid:34033, category id '18005#19.7463' has no name! , ] UID:34033 Activity:high
10/11   http://www.electoral-vote.com is down or maybe just reeeeaaaalllly slow.
        What other sites are people using that keep daily updated vote maps?
        \_ works for me.
           \_ It works, then it doesn't, then it works but I don't get
              images....  Anyway, I'd still like to know what other
              sites people are using for comparison and curiosity.  Thanks.
        \_ http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Presidential_04/RCP_EC.html
           http://www.electionprojection.com
        \_ Just curious why anyone cares? There's only one 'poll' that is
           going to matter. Cast your vote and tune in then to find out.
           Are you all campaign strategists now?
           \_ If/when Dubya wins, people want to know the reason why, or
              at least how it went down.  Duh.  Leave them and most of America
              alone.  And yes, they might be assisting with different campaigns
              as they get older.
           \_ I am deciding where to focus my GOTV effort. I am going to take
              the week before the election off from work and travel to
              a swing state. I need to pick one that is close. I am
              co-ordinating with a group of 20 people on this choice,
              so it is kind of cumbersome.
                \_ I'm going to Vega$ for this purpose, closest swing
                   state I can think of. - danh
              \_ Why not ask your political party where they need your help?
                 It seems silly to track this for anything other than
                 entertainment and if this is entertaining then you must
                 be really bored. Move to DC. They find this fun there.
                 \_ You must not be a Democrat. "I do not belong to any
                    organized party, I am a Democrat." In case you haven't
                    noticed, the whole country is paying attention to
                    politics this month, not just the inside the beltway
                    crowd.
                    \_ "Politics" is not pseudo-scientific polls conducted
                       by people with an agenda or, at best, a poor
                       understanding of statistics.
                 \_ Why not get a loudspeaker? It seems silly to criticize
                    people interested in poll numbers, for anything other than
                    entertainment and if this is entertaining then you must
                    be really bored. Move out of yermom's house. Many people
                    find it fun there.
                 \_ Yeah, following baseball statistics is much more exciting
                    and relelvant to my life. Not.
2004/10/11-12 [Computer/SW/Database, Computer/Networking] UID:34034 Activity:nil
10/11   Anyone have a recommendation for a serial cable analyzer? I need
        one that works with "live" circuits. I am interested in debugging
        DB-9 to RJ-45 cables. E.g, inserting the device inbetween a PC COM1
        port and terminal server port. Bonus points for jumpers/wires
        that one can fiddle with to essentially re-wire the cable on
        the fly.
        \_ I don't know exactly what you mean by analyzer, and this is
           probably not what you're looking for, but since no one else is
           answering...a nice little juper box for db-9 is
           http://tinyurl.com/64gx8
           you have to solder wires to make the connections, though.
2004/10/11-12 [Reference/Military] UID:34035 Activity:very high
10/11   Regarding the Sadr City cash-for-arms 5-day program that began today
        (for which Iraqis will receive $150 US for each AK-47), do you think
        they'll be turning in rusted weapons for cash and it will be played up
        politically; will it be a real disarmament; or where in between these
        extremes?
        \- This is sort of fun to review: ~psb/MOTD/GunBuyBack
        \- This is sort of fun to review: ~psb/MOTD/IraqGunBuyBack
           \_ I'm not sure I understand your reference to Year of Living
              Dangerously, though it tickles me pink to think of you and mkb
              cooking up a guns-for-ca$h scheme. --erikred
              \-YLD shows that people are motivated by more than
                pecuniary factors. you may wish to read:
                http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i39/39b01001.htm
                --psb
        \- they're going to get $150 and buy 3 AK-47s at $50 each from Iran,
           Libya, etc. It's gonna get popular!
           \-the possibility of arbitrage and the fact that exposes to light
             the arms smuggle path is dicussed in the thread.
           \_ I wouldn't want to be the guy driving the truck with the 4000
              AK47s in it over the border from Iran or Syria.  It's not worth
              the risk some trigger happy pilot will blow up me and my truck
              from 5 miles away and I'll be dead before the sound wave of
              the missile reaches me.
              \_ truck?  just use a donkey cart, with a kid or two on top.
2004/10/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:34036 Activity:high
10/11   Congress just passed a bill to hand out $14.5 billion to people
        who *choose* to live in the path of hurricanes.  ilyas, and other
        motd libertarians or other social regressives, how do you feel
        about being "forced at gunpoint" to pay for these handouts? -meyers
        \_ What about the $120 billion for people who "choose" to live on
           top of our oil?  Where's the outrage?
           \_ Consider it evening the scorecard for Kosovo.  At least this
              time we are fighting for the right side (against militant
              Islam as opposed to for it).
        \_ California has earthquakes, Washington state has volcano, other
           states has tornados, etc.  Heck, we should all move to a
           state without any natural disasters.
           \_ what, and create a state with 'man-made' disasters?
              \_ NYC has terrorist attacks.
           \_ That volcano ain't nothin'. We should create some more disasters
              on the west coast to keep things fair with the fed relief funds.
              \_ CA already tossed it out of office.
        \_ You're all missing the point.  We hear whining about giving
           handouts to people who *choose* to be poor, but now we have
           a republican congress just giving federal money away.  Where's
           the outrage about not letting the free market fix this problem??
           There are numerous insurance companies which could be making
           big money here (insuring against disasters, not in paying out
           claims, of course) -meyers
           \_ I disagree with giving fed disaster relief, and pretty much
              all subsidies of any kind.  Calling this a 'republican congress'
              because RNC has a slim majority is more than a little misleading.
              I am neither republican nor a conservative.  I try my best to
              game a system where the two major parties are basically centrist,
              and I don't like either.  I do tend to dislike the modern DNC
              more than the modern RNC, but that's DNC's fault.  On a
              slightly unrelated note, I am glad you found something else
              to talk about.  Thoughtful liberals and thoughtful libertarians
              tend to agree on social ills (it's 'bad' that people able and
              willing to work don't get enough to eat, etc).  However, liberals
              are more impatient, they are willing to prod society in what they
              feel is 'the right direction' with a bayonet, if necessary.
              Libertarians are deeply suspicious of bayonets (and certainties
              of what 'the right direction' is), so much so that they are
              willing to put up with a lot of social ills to avoid said
              bayonets. -- ilyas
              \_ unless said bayonets are used by the government to murder
                 innocent people who are wrongly conviced of a crime.
                 apparently that doesn't even count as a social ill
                 for libertarians.
                 \_ I don't see how the old legal dilemma about the proportion
                    of innocents hanging in the gallows vs the guilty prowling
                    the streets (and where I happen to think a reasonable
                    solution lies) have to do with libertarians.  Everyone has
                    to solve this problem.  Libertarian opinions on proper
                    solutions differ, just as liberal and conservative opinions.
                    You are a troll.  Come back with an actual point. -- ilyas
           \_ Which is.. exactly what they do in florida.  insurance companies
              and hurricanes have a long colorful history.
           \_ Yes it's rediculous, there is plenty of discord on
              conservative sites.
              \_ You just overwrote someone.  I know there are insurance
                 companies in Florida.  Where's the outrage about govt
                 messing with their market?? -meyers
                 \_ The same place the rest of your black 'n' white red
                    herring strawman went.  In the trash.  Try again with
                    new bait.
        \_ 14.5B for disaster recovery is nothing compared to the shameless
           giveaways to the special interests, such as the $160B farm bill
           signed in 2002. Even The Economist commented: "The real explanation
           for America's farm idiocy is electoral". Divide that by the number
           of tax payers. This is on average how much is being taken from you
           for farm subsidies.
           \_ As if I wouldn't pay for it at the super market or every time I
              eat out.  I prefer paying that way but since aggressive income
              tax schedules are sucking my income in half I'm ok if some of
              that money goes to making my life better in some other way.
        \_ It is plain and simple vote buying by the Republican Party, no
           more and no less. Perfectly legal and how pork barrel politics
           works.
2004/10/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:34037 Activity:insanely high
10/11   http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/040912/sticker.shtml
        wrong Bush/Kerry bumper sticker can cost you your job.
        \_ WTF? Isn't that more than just blatantly illegal? Shouldn't
           that dumbfuck attorney know that? I hope he receives hells
           for this. Too bad that poor lady isn't going to sue him.
           \_ This is exactly why we need tort reform, to prevent frivilous
              lawsuits like what you're describing!
              \_ Lordy lordy.  The motd really is a parody of itself.
                \_ How is that at all frivolous?
                   \_ Because the same topics come up again and again and
                      again.  The entire motd could be summarized as a
                      read only file that simply said "et cetera ad nauseum."
                      At some point, you start giggling at certain things,
                      like the obligatory tort reform reference above.
        \_ The law is pretty clear that a private employer can fire someone
           \- i dont think this is "pretty clear". you have a cite?
           based on their political speech even when that political speech
           does not affect the terms and conditions of employment.
           Evil ... but legal!
           \- i dont think this is "pretty clear". you have a cite?
              \_ http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067578
                 The sentence I wrote is even taken verbatim from an ACLU rep.
                 \- that is interesting. thanks for the ptr. some comments:
                    it looks like in this case, doing some govt work doesnt
                    turn you into a "public employer" [in constrast to say
                    other "reaches" when it comes to what constitutes "state
                    action"]. the other interesting matter is it says "can
                    fire based on political speech" which is a different
                    matter than beliefs. in other words, if i believe what
                    that italie fellow believed but i only revealed it
                    in a 1:1 conversation started by HR, could i be fired?
                    \_ yes -dbushong
                    i know organizaation such as churches have some increased
                    latitude [ostentsibly a hindu temple could require the
                    janitor to not eat bigmac at work], but this lack of
                    requirement to show it affects the work is sort of
                    surprising. one may have to ask if there were to
                    italies at the job would they have to fire both of them
                    or does that allow for a suit on other grounds.
                    i am surprised the "right to engage in political discourse"
                    isnt better protected ... it seems to merit at least a
                    gay if he believes in gay rights? I guess we are still
                    haunted by the "spectre of Lochner". --psb
        \_ Well he gave her a chance and she basically put him on the spot.
           I don't like the guy's action personally but I don't have a problem
           with it from a legal point of view. She doesn't have an inherent
           right to be employed by this guy.
           \_ This is a particularly cold way of putting it, IMO.
              \_ Well it's private property. By parking her car there she's
                 putting political ads on his property, which he doesn't
                 have to allow if he doesn't feel like it. Capitalism is
                 inherently cold and greed-inducing.
                 \_ I'm not disagreeing with the fact it is completely legal
                    for a private employer to fire an employee for political
                    speech, I'm just saying you put it rather coldly.
                 \_ Could this be an easy way around discrimination lawsuits
                    in racially/politically divided areas?  "I didn't hire him,
                    him, and him because they were Democrat. New policy. What?
                    Sure I'll stick to it"
        \_ Why do leftists always think free speech applies to private
           property?  Maybe because they don't understand the concept
           of private property?
                   \- we're not talking about an "inherent right to be
                      employed" ... yes, she cant walk in off the street
                      and demand to be hired. i think a much more accurate
                      phrasing is apparently an employer can interfere
                      with your inherent right to participate in the political
                      process, without proving it affects him in any material
                      way. practically anything can be considered a political
                      belief. on the matter of "private property" see e.g.
                      the pruneyard v robins. it's not that absolute. --psb
                      \_ No, if you read the 1st Amendment you would see
                         it really is that simple.  Her employer is not
                         Congress.
                         \- No it isnt that simple. Look up the "absorption
                            doctrine". --psb
                         \- It is simple and you are simply wrong. You may
                            wish to google for "slaughterhouse incorporation".
                            Perhaps you have 100+ yrs of constitutional
                            jurisprudence to catch up on? --psb
                            \_ The amendment is pretty clear to me.
                               I'm not interested in polemic redirection.
                               \- it is pretty clear to me your brain is
                                  small. --psb
                                  \_ Who is the one who can't read the
                                     Amendment?  Please, what is the
                                     psb exegesis of the 1st Amend.
                                     \- the 1st amd [and most of the other
                                      1st 10] are now considered "piped"
                                      through the 14th amendment. See e.g.
                            http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_bor.html
                                      or anything about the the "incorpriation
                                      doctrine". This is settled law. Arguing
                                      about this is like arguing the income
                                      tax is illegal ... it sets the FRUITCAKE
                                      bit. --psb
                                      \_ That's a fancy way of saying
                                         its obvious.  Invoking the 14th
                                         Amend. is not, and should not be,
                                         necessary.
                      \_ Ok I went and read about the pruneyard case. It was
                         stressed in that case that: "It bears repeated
                         emphasis that we do not have under consideration the
                         property or privacy rights of an individual homeowner
                         or the proprietor of a modest retail establishment."
                         I find this decision to be problematic. But it was
                         also found to be specific to California's constitution
                         and I think it would be impossible to extend the logic
                         of the case to cover a private factory. I'm not sure
                         what other laws might pertain to this situation.
                         The employer didn't interfere with her right to vote,
                         only her "right" to display a political sign on her
                         car in his parking lot.
                         car in his parking lot. However there are a lot of
                         federal and state laws regulating employment and
                         discrimination beyond any constitutional basis, and
                         I don't have a good understanding of the legal
                         justification for some of those things.
                         \- it is astute of you to observe the narrowing
                            of pruneyard and the state const issue. my point
                            in raising it goes to the non-absoluteness of
                            private property ... and it is sort of fun that
                            it is a local case [for those of you from the
                            south bay]. it is admittedly not a case with an
                            am employee-employer relationship at the heart.
                            also key to pruneyard is the quasi-public space
                            doctrine ... we dont live in a world with public
                            squares and public markets but a world of santana
                            row and stanfraud shoppinng center.
                            back to the case above, it seems odd to me to
                            allow the employer such an incredibly low standard
                            that there is *no standard* [he doenst have to
                            show it does any harm to the business, let alone
                            signficant harm or even possible harm] he has
                            to meet ... but on the other hand he is prevented
                            from terminating on various discrimination grounds.
                            it seems better to to protect fewer specific
                            classification but force the employer to meet
                            some reasonable criteria. otherwise you get weird
                            things like ... i believe in drug legalization
                            so i can be fired. but i believe in it because
                            i am a peyote using indian so i am protected
                            under some kind of religion freedom rather than
                            political freedom. ok tnx --psb
                            \_ PSB, why do you know this stuff?  Do you read
                               Supreme Court Opionions in your spare time?
                            \_ I suppose there is a distinction between one's
                               choices and one's characteristics, although
                               \- you may wish to read about the legal concept
                                  of (im)mutability which is of interest to
                                  the homosexual legal empire. that is an
                                  interesting interesection of science and
                                  the law. at core it concerns an empirical
                                  question. a tougher, philosophiscal problem
                                  is how to draw a line between stuff essential
                                  to identity and fundamentally tied to a class
                                  and "lifestyle choices" ... is peyote
                                  a lifestyle choice or fundamental to living
                                  as an american indian of some appropriate
                                  tribe? what about sodomy, having children,
                                  animal sacrifices etc. --psb
                               religion kind of blurs that boundary. Wearing a
                               hijab is protected but not a Kerry sticker. I
                                  \- if somebody lived in a socialist commune
                                     it seems to me they are at least as
`                                    committed to their "non theistic religion"
                                     as a catholic who wears a cross around
                                     her neck. it seems odd not to allow
                                     you to can somebody for wearing a cross
                                     but can can them if they wear an "emma
                                     rules" tshirt [ok maybe somebody less
                                     nuts than EG]. --psb
                               wonder if Christian car fish things are covered
                               (they're not any religious requirement). Height
                               and weight discrimination can sometimes fall
                               under the disability laws, but something like
                               "fired for just being really ugly" doesn't
                               seem to be protected.
2004/10/11-13 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:34038 Activity:nil
10/11   Perl web programming job at AmBusi. See /csua/pub/jobs/ambusi. -ali
        \_ how much they pay nowadays and how's the job market?
2004/10/11-12 [ERROR, uid:34039, category id '18005#1.5' has no name! , ] UID:34039 Activity:very high
10/11   Report: 6,000 Felons On Voter Registration Lists
        http://www.thedenverchannel.com/politics/3798554/detail.html
        MoveOn in action - keep up the good work!
        \_ Only 536 registered this year. Keep yelling fire where there
           is none and no one will listen to you when it is for real.
           \_ see above
           \_ see above.  There is massive ongoing voter fraud and your
              answer is who cares.  Nice.
              \_ 536. In other words, you lied. Twice. Nice.
                 \_ 536 is enough to have made FL go the other way in 2000.
                    You'd be screaming conspiracy and bloody murder if those
                    were (R) voters, hypocrite.
                    \_ They probably are (R) voters.
2004/10/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:34040 Activity:moderate
10/11   I-Team investigation uncovers voter registration fraud
        http://csua.org/u/9f9
        Hundreds of completed voter registration cards found
        stashed in car
        http://www.kstptv5.com/article/stories/s3189.html
        Election boards overwhelmed
        http://cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1096191056165960.xml
        \_ MOTD readers underwhelmed
2004/10/11-12 [Reference/Tax] UID:34041 Activity:nil
10/11   motd poll.
        income tax is unconstitutional:
        income tax is constitutional:
        public services are unconstitional:
        \_ The USSC has already made it clear they won't take any cases
           that challenge the 16th.  It's over.  No point in polling.
2004/10/11-12 [Uncategorized] UID:34042 Activity:nil
10/11   Sinclairmei pato break FCC rules:
        <DEAD>cuaorg/fb<DEAD>
2004/10/11-12 [Uncategorized] UID:34043 Activity:nil
10/11   TUGBOAT
        http://koti.mbnet.fi/~soldier/towboat.htm
        \_ Pretty amazing, but FYI, most boats of that size have been
           designed to do this since at least the early 20th century.
           My dad's 38 foot salmon trawler (built early '30s) flipped
           completely over in high seas several times and managed to right
           itself.  The tugboat was very lucky that the river level
           was high enough that it didn't collide with the bottom. --lye
2017/11/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/18   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:11 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>