Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:07 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2004/10/7 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:33964 Activity:moderate
10/7    Anyone else having email problems? My outgoing messages are not
        getting delivered. This has been happening sporadically over the
        last few days, but even worse today... Or rather, they get
        delivered but it has taken up to 8 hours.
        \_ same here, and it's been happening off and on for like the last
           4 or 5 weeks.
        \_ If you see this happen again, please check the load on soda, and
           email root again. (-root)
           \_ it just did happen again, and I just did email root again. -rory
                \_ You're making it worse by increasing the volume of mail!
        \_ The command to use to get the load is:
           w | head -n 1
           \_ aka 'uptime'
2004/10/7 [Recreation/Activities] UID:33965 Activity:moderate
10/6    To the poster who was looking for a way to receive a txt message
        when Mt. St. Helens erupted -- try using http://google.com/alerts
        I haven't tried it myself, but it looks like what you want.
        \_ Sweet! Thanks..
           \_ Did you read the original thread?  Someone suggested that.
        \_ Did you read the original thread?  Someone suggested that.
                \_ Nope but thanks. -op
2004/10/7 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:33966 Activity:nil
10/4    There's an email account I created and used for donotcall.gov
        and today I started getting spam on it. What happened???
2004/10/7 [Uncategorized] UID:33967 Activity:kinda low
10/7    _Not_ entirely work safe:
        http://www.captain-obvious.com/images/valentine3.jpg
        \_ it's not really that funny.
        \_ Uh, duh.
2004/10/7 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33968 Activity:very high
10/4    What personal gain does Soros have for not electing Bush
        (did Bush turn down Soro's contract or something? If anything
        Soros has a lot of gain from Bush's tax cut for the super
        wealthy). And did http://factcheck.com/georgesoros.com help undecided
        voters determine which way to vote?
        \_ Soros is rich enough that he can go with his conscience, which
           he never did when he was younger. He is an example of someone
           who can afford to be a liberal.
           \_ among the other plantation owners
           \_ What a hypocrite.  Okay, I'll go with my conscience when I become
              super-rich someday.
              super-rich some day.
        \_ Maybe Soros sees how BushCo is royally fucking up this country and
           wants to use his power and influence to do something about it?
           Did you actually read the speech? Maybe it's hard for Bush supporters
           to imagine someone doing something without gaining from it financially?
        \_ Maybe he has witnessed fascism in his lifetime and doesn't
           want to see it again.  Maybe he doesn't like the idea of the
           plutocracy which will result from the Bush tax agenda.  Maybe
           he sees that serfdom is a bad idea.
        \_ Soros is concerned about the drift toward totalitarianism
           in this country. He grew up in a Soviet block state so
           he knows the dangers.
           \_ You know, most ex-Soviet block folks are not on the DNC
              side...  Equating Bush et al with fascism is like equating
              Cheney with the neocons -- stupid. -- ilyas
                \_ You'll have to explain this one in more detail, tou've lost me.
              \_ You'll have to explain this one in more detail, you've lost me.
                 \_ Pronoun dereference error.  -- ilyas
           \_ I've definitely had issues with the man who destroyed the Thai
                 \_ Not true.  I beat him to the punch.  Fascism is governement
                    working hand in hand with industry.  The bush administration
                    is replete with examples of cronyism, favoritism,
                    deregulation (read lawlessness).  All fascist tendencies.
                    \_ This is incoherent. -- ilyas
              \_ First of all totalitarianism is not the same thing as fascism.
                 Are you deliberately trying to change the topic by Godwin'ing
                 it? Secondly, do you honestly believe that George Soros is
                 "stupid?" He seems pretty brilliant to me.
                 \_ I wasn't the first to bring up fascism in this thread.
                    I ve never met Soros, so I can't comment on how 'stupid'
                    he is.  I think being concerned about totalitarianism is
                    always healthy.  Thinking that Bush is a dangerous lunatic
                    like we had 60ish years ago is ... overreacting.
                    Bush is not a dangerous lunatic, he is a frat boy.
                    I ve heard so many shrill comparisons of Bush and
                    that short german guy that I have a hard time taking
                    these sorts of discussions seriously anymore.  Having
                    said that, is anyone willing to give a thoughtful
                    argument for how the US politics are in imminent danger
                    of sliding into something unsavory if Bush is reelected?
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ Bush has eroded civil liberties, more than any
                       president in my lifetime. This concerns me. And I
                       certainly did not bring up facism. I think you are
                       responding to the wrong entry. Just because
                       totalitarianism took one historical path (by
                       following a lunatic) once in history 60 years
                       ago does not mean that there are not other ways
                       to it. Read up on the history of Mussolini, Pinochet,
                       Franco and Peron for more germane historical
                       examples.
                       \_ Yeah, that concerns me too.  However, compare to
                          Roosevelt during WWII (specifically internment and
                          press restrictions). -- ilyas
                          \_ Or WWI, which was even more severe, with the
                             alien sedition act. But the problem with these
                             comparisons is that during WWI and WWII we were
                             fighting a state actor and had a clearly
                             defined goal and endpoint to the civil
                             liberty restrictions. Today, we are fighting
                             "terror" something so ill defined that it
                             will never be defeated. And to top it off,
                             Bush used a war that he chose to get into
                             as an excuse to further the crackdown on
                             civil liberties. Combine these and you start
                             to see a dangerous precedent, especially
                             compared to historical actors who have
                             done similar things.
                             \_ Yes, that's true.  Though one wonders how
                                these restrictions managed to steamroll
                                their way into law.  It's not like the
                                POTUS can randomly rewrite laws without
                                some help (or at least inaction) from other
                                branches.  I am less concerned with Bush
                                specifically, and more concerned with the
                                government machine which makes the
                                crackdown not only possible but a reality.
                                The office of the POTUS doesn't have enough
                                power to be a worry in and of itself.
                                  -- ilyas
                                \_ Don't underestimate the power of
                                   demagoguery combined with an enraged
                                   populace. Though I suppose the biggest
                                   threat has passed for the moment. What
                                   about after the next 9/11? And there
                                   will be a next one.
           \_ I've definitely had issues with the man who destroyed the Thai
              economy for fun and profit preaching about high-minded politics
              but I am mostly over it.
        \_ Is he heavily invested in dollars?  Could he be afraid
           "4 MORE YEARS!" will result in the dollar losing value?
           \_ warren buffet also likes kerry, and he has like a 19 billion
                bet on the dollar falling.
2004/10/7 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33969 Activity:very high
10/7    maybe he's lying, but Bush claims no draft while he's president:
        http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/10/20041005-6.html
        \_ there won't be a draft because draftees are useless or have
           negative value to the modern US military.  it takes a few *years*
           to train a new recruit to be useful on the high-tech battlefield.
           by the time they managed to draft and train a million slackers,
           whatever event they were drafted for would be long over.  modern
           warfare is so fast now that when war breaks out there is no time
           to build up anything.  it's a bring-whatcha-got kinda thing now.
           thus, the idea that there will be a draft for anything short of
           a mass invasion by a foreign nation (which we know can't happen)
           is simply daft.
        \_ Kerry wants more troops sent in.. so more likelyhood of draft
                \_ not necessarily US troops.
                \_ not necessarily US troops.   likelihood _/
        \_ "as long as I am President, there will be no draft" -Dubya, Tuesday
           \_ Read... My... Lips.
           \_ I believe Dubya says this because he thinks the current Iraq
              plan (currently deployed U.S. troops + Iraqi National Guard)
              can work.  He'll probably say his commanders on the ground said
              Samarra was the example of this.
        \_ And we can trust everything Bush says, because he is so honest
           and straightforward with the American people. Not to mention
           having such great judgement.
           \_ I think he's a lying sack of shit.  I also think he's not
              going to restart the draft unless there is a really major
              attack on American soil. -op
              \_ I want to play devil's advocate:  If there is a terror
              \_ I want to play devil's advocate:  Say there is a terror
                 attack on American soil that does not do significant damage
                 to the economy/stock market and business infrastructure,
                 Dubya may still implement the draft, while a whole lot of
                 people may think it wasn't a "really major attack" but won't
                 say anything because they'll be accused of being traitors.
                 Then we go after Iran even though it was al Qaeda that did it,
                 because you know, this is the post-9/11 world and if America
                 shows weakness or uncertainty, the world will drift toward
                 tragedy.  SERVICE GUARANTEES CITIZENSHIP!
                 How do we like dem apples?
                 \_ Do you buy your tinfoil hat off the rack or do you get
                    them custom made?
                    \_ Homemade from only the finest heavy-duty Alcoa foil.
                    \_ How _much_ do you think this differs from what happened
                       with Iraq, justification 9/11?  Except I can definitely
                       say Iran is a much greater threat today, than Iraq to
                       U.S. national security before we invaded.
                       \_ The rest of us carry state information.  Perhaps
                          you don't.
                          \_ I make a solid devil's advocate case.
                             I can't say much for what you provided.
                             \_ If you're making a devil's advocate claim,
                                then the question of tinfoil hat is justified.
                                \_ So says you without any meaningful
                                   indication of why, even after three posts.
           \_ Yup, just like when he said he wouldn't do any nation building.
              \_ I'm a uniter, not a divider.
                 We must be humble.
                 \_ We mut have a strong but humble foreign policy.
2004/10/7 [Recreation/Dating] UID:33970 Activity:very high
10/4    Dear Japanese speakers. I've been watching porn a lot lately
        and I'm wondering what 'kimochi' and 'ee-koo' means. They
        say that a lot. ok thx.
        \_ kimochi means feeling, but they are probably saying
           "kimochi ii", which means good feeling.  Basically,
           "Oh, that feels good".
           \_ And "ee-koo" is probably "iku", the infinitive of "go".
               -- ulysses
              \_ "iku" is used to indicate approaching orgasm, or "coming."
                 In other words, when she says, "I'm going," that's a good
                 thing.
        \_ what does "Hitakushi! Gama Su!" mean? Does it mean "GOOD, GOOD!"?
        \_ Do you watch it on-line or do you buy VCDs or DVDs?  I'm thinking
           about buying Japanese porn on physical VCDs or DVDs, and I'm
           wondering which porn site is trustworthy.  Thanks for any info.
           \_ http://www.bushdvd.com (like netflix only porn)
        \_ What Japan pr0n are you watching? The dialogue in the stuff I've seen
           mostly translates to "please, oh no, don't insert another tentacle!"
                  \- that's pretty good. heh. --psb
        \_ What about "dameyo" or something like that?
           \_ It means "no" or "don't."  The actress says it to indicate that
              she's resisting, both because good girls don't enjoy sex and to
              because rape is a common porn theme in Japan.
                \_ And no matter how not hung the male actor is, scream like
                   it really hurts!
              \_ And while we're at it, actresses will also often say "Iya,"
                 which also means no.  Often they'll combine the bits: "Iya,
                 iya, dame, dameyo, iku!" which I happen to think sounds a
                 bit like "Ia, ia, Cthulhu ftagn!"
        \_ This is the most informative thread on the motd in some time.
           \_ Lessee ... There maybe Republicans, Democrats and independents
              on this motd, but they all have one thing in common - pr0n!
              \_ I don't watch porn.  Am I weird?
                 \_ For a sodan? Yes.  Compared to the rest of the world? No.
2004/10/7 [Uncategorized] UID:33971 Activity:moderate
10/4    http://www.strike9.com/8FE325B14A/vpdebate.jpg
        EXcellent.  (SFW)
        \_ Very realistic.
        \_ funny stuff. Now if only they have Mr. Burns holding hands with a
           Monkey, that'll be cool.
2004/10/7-8 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33972 Activity:high
10/7    I notice on wall people are discussing the idea that Guantanamo
        interrogations "have not prevented a single terrorist attack".
        Here's the source article:
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1318702,00.html
        \_ People on wall don't discuss.  They just echo each other and
           say "w00t!".
           \_ Then add to the discussion.  Anonymous Coward. -scotsman
              \_ This is what wall reminds me of:
                 http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame69.html -- ilyas
                 \_ http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame88.html
                    \_ Whoa.  It's aaron with a fro!
                       \_ I hate Oliver Stone. --aaron
                          \_ I find it amusing that the only thing aaron
                             could find to counter the caricature of himself
                             was that he does not like Oliver Stone.  Way
                             to go aaron!  You are not a 1-d stereotype!
                             You are a HUMAN BEING!
                             \_ Congratulations! You got the joke! --aaron
                                \_ Congratulations!  You are a cardboard
                                   cutout!  It's not a joke, it's depressing.
                                   \_ Anonymous insults sure are noble.
                                      \_ Anonymous insults sure are noble.
                                         \_ Anonymous insults sure are noble.
                                            (it's time someone stepped in to
                                            terminate the recursion). -- ilyas
                                         \_ Actually, insulting an anonymous
                                            person anonymously is perfectly
                                            symmetrical. Slightly silly perhaps,
                                            but no harm done. Insulting
                                            someone by name is defamatory.
                                            Do you really not understand this?
                                            \_ Wow!  You got the point of the
                                               comment!  Good for you!  Now
                                               maybe you can work on using
                                               silverware without a bib!
                          \_ even Conan the Barbarian?
                             \_ Okay, I hate Oliver Stone except for Conan
                                \_ What about Wall Street? do you hate that?
           \_ w00t!  pwn3d!
2004/10/7-8 [Finance/Investment] UID:33973 Activity:moderate
10/7    Dear Russians, is Soros a common Russian last name? Is it shortened
        from Soroski or Sorogorodov? Sorokova?
        \_ It doesn't sound Russian, and BTW, George Soros was originally
           from Hungary.
        \_ Soros is a typical Hungarian name.  Compare: Erdos. -- ilyas
        \_ Soros is one of those International Jewish Banker names.
           \_ Uh oh.  Does Bush have the Infinity Trident?
              \_ http://csua.org/u/9dn No, but the Germans do.
                 \_ Those fools!  They'll wake the Kraken!
                    \_ Isn't it just like the Scientists to think that you
                       can use the Infinity Trident to anaesthetize?
           \_ http://www.reason.com/links/links120803.shtml
        \_ It sounds Greek to me, as does George. Many -os names are Greek.
        \_ It's also a palindrome.
2004/10/7-8 [Reference/Tax, Finance/Banking] UID:33974 Activity:very high
10/7    So I read in The Economist last week that Americans now save
        1% of their income. That astonished me. Time for a motd poll:
        I save 30% or more of my income: .
        I save 1% or more of my income: .......
        I save less than 1% of my income:
        I save NaN of my income: .
        \_ I think these things are bogus.  They usually say "disposable
           income" but what exactly is that?  401k counts?
           \_ Any income that goes above the standard costs of living,
              basically any money left over after you pay rent/mortgage,
              food, utilities, transportation, debts and insurance.
              A lot of people are living month-to-month because they
              have zero disposable income (they buy too much house,
              they have kids, they buy too much car, they have high cc debt,
              etc.) The only real way to get out of this trap is to
              own some assets which generate you money, which is why
              it's technically a lot less riskier to start your own
              venture than it is to just keep living from paycheck to
              paycheck. (Optimally you do both). In contrast, my
              disposable income approaches 50-60% of my total income, but
              that's because I have both assets (in terms of rentable,
              paid-off real-estate and running small business ventures
              on the side and playing the market) and a steady income
              from a "day-to-day" job. Plus, I have no capital intensive
              dependents (read kids).
              \_ That's very nice for you, but doesn't really do much for all
                 the Americans who can't save.  I find your explanation for
                 why people are living paycheck to paycheck to be somewhat
                 glib.  What about skyrocketing health care costs?  What about
                 skyrocketing housing costs (a tiny single family home is only
                 "too much house" because it is overpriced)?  What about
                 stagnation in middle class income?
                 \_ I make about 23k/year and save about 10% of my income.
                    not driving is probably the single biggest factor.
                 \_ What about them? As I said before, the only way to
                    get out of the trap is to own money-generating assets.
                    Sure, a 10-25% increase in healthcare/fuel costs is going
                    to cost the average American about 3-4K more per annum,
                    but 3-4K is like peanuts compared to the money you
                    can generate by doing things beyond a monthly paycheck.
                    Is it easy to do? No. Does it take a toll on your social
                    life? Absolutely. Working weekends/nights on your own
                    stuff is only for those who want to do it, but the
                    rewards are there if you stick to it.
                    Plus, buying a house in an overpriced market is just
                    dumb. Even if interest rates are low the savings in
                    monthly payments are offset by the longer term of the
                    loan and the higher property tax you pay. Think about it,
                    a 15 year loan is finished in 15 years, but property taxes
                    are there ALWAYS until you sell the property. A lot
                    of people get suckered into thinking that buying a home
                    is good because it's an asset. It isn't. Buying a home
                    that is overpriced with long-term mortgaging is just plain
                    stupid because it's a big LIABILITY. So, people should
                    take the emotion out of buying real-estate and pay for
                    what the property is worth, NOT what the monthly
                    mortgage payments are. After all, if you are making a
                    decent living the extra couple of points on the mortgage
                    are tax deductible anyway.
                    \_ My mortgage + property tax is not that bad once I
                       deduct the interest and the tax. If the house falls
                       in value the property tax goes *DOWN*. Be careful
                       that you don't fall off your high horse, because
                       many people in this country cannot afford a house
                       at any price and $3K/year is a lot of money to
                       someone who clears $450/week (which is what you get
                       if you make $30K). It's easy for us six figure
                       college boys to scoff, huh?
                       \_ I've met a number (not many, but a fair number)
                          of people who have never even set foot on a
                          University campus who slowly but surely became
                          millionaires. They did it by owning small businesses.
                          They did it by being frugal. They did it because
                          they knew how to save. A large paycheck doesn't
                          equate to knowing how to save that money
                          because Uncle Sam whacks off 33-40% off of
                          that paycheck thanks to our progressive tax
                          system. The key is to think about doing
                          things OUTSIDE your daily routine that will
                          generate money.
                          \_ This is not everyone. The number one thing
                             you need to have in order to save is money.
                             Discipline and motivation are second. My dad
                             saves a lot of money (as a %) but he could
                             save that % for the rest of his life and
                             it wouldn't do much good. Your audience is
                             wasteful professionals, not the working man.
                             Yes, you can turn from burger flipper into
                             burger chain owner like the Wendy's guy, but
                             not everyone is capable and quite frankly
                             there's a lot of luck to it.
                             \_ I dunno about that. My wife worked as a
                                waitress for seven years and managed to
                                put away $50k, which she had turned into
                                $100k by investing. Now she has a Master's
                                from UCB and is making high five figures,
                                but even as a waitress, plus working odd
                                jobs, ske was able to pull in about $40k/yr
                                and save 1/4 of that. And this is in the
                                Bay Area. I, on the other hand, was $30k
                                in credit card debt before a dotcom cashout
                                saved me. Needless to say, she manages
                                the finances.
                                \_ She saved $10K per year on a $40K
                                   salary? That's definitely unusual, but
                                   even so what can she do with $50K?
                                   She's going to start her own business
                                   with that?! In 20 years she would have
                                   $200K and will have lived like a
                                   college student for her entire life.
                                   That is not exactly appealing to most.
                                   Most people take $50K and buy a house
                                   with it, which is probably not a bad idea.
                                   \_ That is what we did with it: we
                                      bought a duplex, which we live in
                                      and provides a good revenue stream.
                                      That is how you do it: save $50k,
                                      turn it into $100k and leverage that
                                      into bigger gains. It is not easy
                                      and it takes some luck, but unless
                                      someone hands it to you, that is
                                      all you can do. At this point I
                                      would like her to start her own
                                      business, but she likes where she
                                      is at too much to switch.
              \_ I see.  I spend like $1900 per month.  If I make $5000
                 (should it be before or after tax?), does that mean I have
                 a savings rate of 62% ?  I have trouble believing
                 the 1% figure.  Many people I know don't save enough, but
                 1% sounds too low.  Does, say, home improvements that
                 increase the value of your house count as savings?
                 \_If you make $5000 per month your take home pay is about
                   $3700-$3900 after taxes, SSI, etc. depending on how you
                   do your taxes. If you spend $1900 per month you'll be
                   left with around $2000 of disposable income. Obviously
                   you're not going to save $2000 (you probably spend some
                   on stuff like movies, games, gifts, computer junk, etc).
                   so you probably save around $1200-$1500, which is a good
                   number compared to most Americans. The U.S. could encourage
                   even more savings if they would give people who saved their
                   money tax breaks, i.e. they would knock off a buck off
                   your taxes for every 10-20 bucks you save.
                   If you want to save on taxes you should start a business
                   and expense a bunch of stuff, like your vehicle, equipment,
                   etc. That way you expense some of your consumables and
                   you can deduct that from your taxes. In addition, you
                   should really use some of the money you save for business
                   ventures because if you lose the money it's tax deductible.
                   So hey, why not risk it? And contrary to popular belief,
                   you have about a 50% chance (if you do your homework)
                   of having a business succeed. (the 1-10 number is
                   not an accurate statistic).
                   \_ I thought that the 1 in 10 number was just for VC funded
                      high-tech startups.
        \_ Why save when the government is there to take of you
           cradle to grave.
           \_ The gov't wasn't there to help you write a coherent sentence,
              apparently.
                  \_ The couple who live below me are probably 38-44ish,
                     have no kids and are renters.  The complain about
                     chipping in an extra $7/mo for garbage but they own
                     1 brand new 5series BMW, a corvette, and another car,
                     a +$25k harley and another motorcycle. One is some kind
                     of office manager type and the other is a personal
                     trainer. I fully believe the have a ~1% savings rate
                     or one of them is a successful drug dealer.
2004/10/7-8 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:33975 Activity:kinda low
10/7    Dozens dead, 100+ injured.  10 floors collapse, hotel on fire.
        http://www.hilton.com/en/hi/hotels/index.jhtml?ctyhocn=TBAHITW
        \_ What a shitty website. using opera, that page takes me
           to a "Web Standards" page explaining what software you
           need to view their stupid site. setting opera to
           "identify as Mozilla 5.0" the page works fine. I hate
           browser sniffing.
           \_ Well there are a few legit uses, such as detecting IE so you can
              know not to use leet CSS features, or detecting "not IE" so you
              can warn people if you have an ActiveX site.
                \_ this reminds me of the time when TWA crashed and
                   I yelled out "TWA crashed! TWA crashed!" and my
                   co-worker said "Oh my god... how many points did
                   it drop?"
        \_ Yeah, so?  Some animals killed some more Jews?  This is news?
           \_ No, it's Paris' bodyguards who did it.  Those Jews stumbled upon
              Paris' production crew for her next home video to be "leaked" to
              the public, so they have to be killed.
2004/10/7-8 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:33976 Activity:high
10/7    What is the best free mass-renaming application for windows?  -thanks
        \_ cygwin
        \_ perl
        \_ "ren *foo *bar" in Command Prompt.
           \_ don't do that.
              \_ why not?
                 \_ It would be bad.
                 \_ "Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping
                    instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding
                    at the speed of light."
                    \_ <gulp> Total protonic reversal.
2004/10/7-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33977 Activity:very high
10/7    A lot of people say how bad Castro is, but how come Cuba does
        so well at sports and also things like infant mortality, in spite
        of decades of US sanctions?  :
        http://www.economist.com/markets/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3270702
        \_ Well, universal healthcare has its benefits as well as universal
           education and state-sponsored atheletics. I don't know, do you
           prefer a communist dictarship where people have to wait in line
           all day to buy stuff and any opposition is brutaly squashed
           and everyone is equally poor to get a lower infant mortality
           rate and a better international baseball team over an oligarchy
           run by a couple of rich industrialists and plantation owners which
           also brutally squashed opposition to its rule? I guess it depends
           on your perspective.
           \_ It is true that Cuba is poor, but a lot of it has to do with
              our economic sanctions.  Without it, there is a big chance that
              Cuba might follow China's step.
              \_ I'm glad you believe this. Why don't you go over there
                 and do business then?
                        \_ because it's ILLEGAL.  Weren't you paying attention?
                           \_ So you must be outraged about Halliburton
                              doing business in Iraq during the US sanctions
                              \_ I'm outraged we wasted more than 10 years
                                 "sanctioning" Iraq while every corrupt piece
                                 of shit at the UN, in France, Germany, Russia,
                                 and other places was making billions in bribes
                                 at our expense while the Iraqi people suffered
                                 and the Hussein regime grew stronger.
                                 \_ This is an excellent reason for filing a
                                    grievance with the WTO and then punishing
                                    those nations with crippling tarriffs and
                                    sanctions.  If the US would follow through
                                    with its convictions, the world would have
                                    no recourse but toe the line.
              \_ Economic sanctions don't do shit.  The entire rest of the
                 world freely trades with Cuba.  In fact, our Cuba sanctions
                 policy going on for decades now should be proof enough that
                 sanctions are a mindless and useless tactic to use against
                 any country.
                 \_ Against Cuba I tend to agree.  In general, though, I do
                    not.  Sanctions prevented Saddam Hussein from building
                    WMD.
                        \_ Sanctions also made Libya give up WMD programs.
                           It's harder to control a country when the people
                           are miserable.
                           \_ Lie.  Libya gave up their WMD a few days after
                              SH was pulled out of a hole by US troops.
                              \_ Maybe the guy is just WRONG.  You need to
                                 get a little perspective here, guy.
                              \_ Uhhh, Libya giving up their WMD and coming
                                 back into the world community was a diplomatic
                                 effort going on well back into the Clinton
                                 administration.  Gaddafi didn't just watch
                                 Saddam Hussein be captured on TV and suddenly
                                 decide to give up WMD.
                 \_ None of you can tell the difference between coordinated
                    multilateral sanctions and unilateral pigheadedness?
                    Yes, you have to "corner the market" for sanctions to
                    be effective. No, this is not a surprise.
                    \_ And universal sanctions are a joke.  Look how Saddam
                       made *billions* (with a B) corrupting the 'global'
                       sanctions put on his country.  It hurt the people to
                       no end while further empowering his evil government.
                 \_ Economic sanctions does a lot of damage to small countries,
                    the reason it does not work on China is because China can
                    self sustain and be on their own. The same is definitely
                    not true for small countries. Take Korea for example, if
                    the US sanctions them, they will starve and die, it's as
                    simple as that. Cube is poor partly because of our economic
                    sanction.
                    \_ No.  If the US sanctions Korea, other countries will
                       simply cash in as they have in Cuba and anywhere else
                       the US has tried to impose sanctions while our EU
                       "allies" ignore them for the bucks.  Sanctions do not
                       work.  I'd like to see a place where they have.
        \_ Because the numbers are faked?
        \_ oh yea, where a majority of the people shower with buckets.
           One would think that after Communists killed 60+ million
           in the 20th century people would learn.
           \_ You are a moron.
              \_ Comrade, the united peoples of our great state thank you
                 for your heroic efforts against the propaganda of the
                 western capitalist pigdogs!  You shall be rewarded by being
                 moved up the People's Moscow Apartment Waiting List by
                 15,000 spots!  You have served the Motherland nobly!
           \_ Careful with that broad brush, it paints both ways.
              \_ Like I said, you would think people would learn.
                 \_ You think people would learn to not support imperialism
                    too, after the hundreds of millions of people the
                    imperialists killed in the 19th and 20th century.
                    But they never do, do they?
                    \_ Oh the horror of an improved standard of living,
                       a longer life expectancy, and a technologically
                       based society.  What hath we wrought!
                       \_ At the expense of a psychological scar on the
                          American psyche (see: Slavery and Race Relations),
                          the wholesale slaughter of indigenous people
                          (see: Indians, American), and the continued
                          exploitation of and dependence on underprivileged
                          workers and illegal labor in the agrarian sector
                          (see: Migrant Labor and Illegal Immigrants).
                          \_ Victory of the proletariat, comrade!
                       \_ What improved standard of living?  Improved
                          standard of living only happened after the
                          Imperialists got kicked out.
        \_ Cuba spends a huge amount of government money on athletics
           (compared to zero in the US). Also, I note that I see athletes
           defecting from Cuba to the US frequently, but I can't recall anyone
           defecting the other way.
           \_ They don't defect to Cuba because the US government has
              effectively imprisoned our atheletes and does not allow them
              the opportunity to travel to the Golden Land of Cuba.
2017/09/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:07 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>