Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:04 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/10/4 [Uncategorized] UID:33891 Activity:nil
10/4    how do i mark 8000 messages in gmail as "read"? - danh
        \_ if there's some identifier, you could try to search for the emails
           and try to do a select all/mark as read.
           and try to do a select all/delete.
2004/10/4 [Computer/SW/Unix, Computer/SW/Security] UID:33892 Activity:moderate
10/4    Hey, jvarga. What the heck is bonnie and why is it sucking up
        all of soda's resources. And why are you running sshd?

7803 jvarga         56   0  5544K  1816K RUN      1:38  4.49%  4.49% sshd
58395 jvarga         -6   0   884K   448K nfsaio   3:27  3.56%  3.56% bonnie
58396 jvarga         -6   0   884K   448K nfsaio   3:27  3.52%  3.52% bonnie
58393 jvarga         -6   0   884K   448K nfsaio   3:27  3.37%  3.37% bonnie
58391 jvarga         -6   0   884K   448K nfsaio   3:26  3.32%  3.32% bonnie
58397 jvarga         -6   0   884K   448K nfsaio   3:28  3.27%  3.27% bonnie
58394 jvarga         -6   0   884K   448K nfsaio   3:27  3.27%  3.27% bonnie
58398 jvarga         -6   0   884K   448K nfsaio   3:27  3.12%  3.12% bonnie
58399 jvarga         -6   0   884K   448K nfsaio   3:27  3.12%  3.12% bonnie
58392 jvarga         -6   0   884K   448K nfsaio   3:25  3.03%  3.03% bonnie
        \_ An sshd process is started as the user whenever you log in with ssh.
        \_ Stress testing nfs for soda upgrades.  I'll nice my processes a bit
           more to keep the load from interfering.
           \_ What are you testing?  Dont be absurd. Re: nicing ... you
              are certainly giving signs of not knowing what you are doing.
              \_ And those signs would be???  Nicing processes will cause them
                 to be much lower in the priority queue than other processes,
                 like sendmail, and make life for you better.  Nicing has
                 absolutly nothing to do with testing NFS.
              \_ What a lamer.  I wouldn't be surprised if jvarga isn't
                 a l33t u|\|1X H4X@r.  But he's doing a pretty good job,
                 and a whole lot more than you are.  If you have something
                 constructive to say, go ahead, otherwise, shut your pie
                 \_ You dont know who I am.  By anybody's measure I've
                    done far more for the CSUA than jvarga.  root@soda/
                    politburo has been quite unresponsive to requests and
                    has made a number of boneheaded decisions like the
                    "kchang finger denial of service" thing.
                    \_ he was evil when I met him in 97 and deserves a
                       permanent squishage. The decision was anything but
                       boneheaded.                              -former polit
                    \_ So, by "by anybody's measure", you mean "anybody who
                       hasn't been around to actually see how much work he's
                       \_ How about a list of things?
                    \_ Said the anonymous loser.
                    \_ Anonymous Loser, just like you? If I signed, then
                       I'd be dismissed as a bitter alumnus.
                    \_ Like I said, lamer.  We've got this thing in English,
                       indeed most languages.  It's called present tense.
                       indeed most languages, it's called present tense.
                       Used for such words as "doing", and "sitting." Maybe
                       you should google for it.
        \_ bonnie is a file system stress-testing benchmark.  It *should* be
           heavily I/O bound. Bearing that in mind, what's renicing it supposed
           to accomplish?
           \_ It should be I/O bound, and it is.  Renicing the processes will
              ensure that they don't consume CPU when others want it.  It has
              nothing to do with the I/O bound nature.
           \_ Not to mention running a benchmark on a system with a lot
              of baseline use.  "Stress testing for soda upgrade" ... yeah
              \_ Actualy, yes, stress testing for a soda upgrade.  Those bonnie
                 processes are hammering on an NFS mounted partition.
2004/10/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33904 Activity:kinda low
10/4    Wow.  Kerry totally busted on film.
        See the link to the video and decide for yourself but it looks really
        really bad.  No one likes a cheater.
        \_ Yeah and I read on Drudge the he had an affair with an intern, too.
           Whatever happened to that Drudge Exclusive? Why won't the liberal
           media tell the truth here about the important stories that
           everyone in America wants to hear about?
           \_ watch the video and decide for yourself.
2004/10/4 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:33905 Activity:nil
10/4    Authorities reviewing voter registration forms
2004/10/4 [Computer/Networking, Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:33906 Activity:low
10/4    I'm looking around for various *nix-based small firewall packages,
        ideally with a web admin gui.  I'd like to have something that "just
        runs" (as opposed to a fully installed OpenBSD/pf box.) I'm looking at
        both open source and commercial (as long as it's reasonably low cost.)
        M0n0wall and ipcop both look kind of cool, LEAF sems a bit
        "unfinished".  Does anyone have any other recommendations?  -John
  (cisco pix 501)
           \_ The consortium thanks you.  -John
2004/10/4 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:33907 Activity:low
        \_ If I was going to pick some random bbc web link to post, I'd
           have picked this one instead:
           Medicine Nobel prize awarded for learning how smell works.
        \_ It's all because of flatulent cows, you vegetarian son of a bitch.
           Why do you hate humans?  -John
        \_ "An estimated 1 in 6 people suffer from hunger and malnutrition
           while attempts to grow food are damaging swathes of productive
           land."   Uh, if it damages it to "attempt to grow food" on it,
           what makes it "productive"?
           \_ Land can be kept productive if you don't overgrow things on it.
              You should let it rest once a while, or something like that, so
              that you can grow things over and over again.  Otherwise when the
              land is exhaused, it's very hard to recover.  People suffering
              from hunger don't have the time and probably the knowledge to
              rotate the farmland to use.
              \_ Rainforest is arguably productive, esp. of CO2.  When you burn
                 it down to grow crops of graze cattle, it is productive land
                 for a few years until all the topsoil washes away.
2004/10/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33908 Activity:high
10/4    Still think the draft is just a rumor?  Check out HR163 and S89 at
        \_ Direct link, for the lazy:
        \_ Old news.  A bunch of Democrats suggested we resart the draft.
           What I don't understand is why Kerry now seems to want to pin
           this goofiness on Bush. Don't worry about it, it won't go
           \_ Regardless of reality, it is becoming a campaign issue.  "Don't
              worry, be happy" isn't a very good way to deal with it.
              \_ So let me get this straight... a bunch of democrats want
                 to restart the draft, and the campaign issue is "Bush will
                 reinstitute the draft"!?  Do you have brain siphilis?
                 reinstitute the draft"!?  Do you have brain syphilis?
                    \_ So now we backed off from the credible *.gov link
                       (which implicated democrats) into some fly-by-night
                       left wing freep show which implicated Bush with
                       t0p-s3kr3t d0cz!!~!```11  You are pathetic.
                       \_ News flash: the Dems were lodging protest legislation
                          designed to point out the class inequalities in the
                          current SS.  BushCo is looking to start up a Skills
                    \_ This is a retarded link.  None the less, it's old
                       news.  The draft was never "stopped" you know, the
                       Selective Service still exists, and I see no reason
                       it shouldn't be updated with the rest of the
                       military.  Call me when that democrat bill goes
           \_ Not just Democrats, dude. Chuck Nagel is a Republican from
              \_ Virtually all are Democrats.  One Republican doesn't
                 prove anything.
              \_ Here's the sponsor list.  Where's Chuck?
                 \_ Surely you can type "Chuck Nagel draft" into google
                    all by yourself.
           \_ Whoops, it's apparently protest legislation:
              More likely to affect us here at CSUA is the Skills Draft:
              Sorry about the confusion. -op
              \_ Skills draft?  I don't think the typical sodan's el8 linux
                 hax0r skillz are draft quality.
                 \_ Spent any amount of time with GI Joe lately? The ability
                    to use a computer is in high demand in the army these days.
                    \_ Because knowing is half the battle!
        \_ Special Skills Draft:
           Putting your Counter-Strike skillz to the ultimate test!
2004/10/4 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33909 Activity:insanely high
10/4    I read on Drudge Report that Kerry used a magic penis to beat
        GWB in the debate. It must be true, because everyone knows
        that GWB is smarter, stronger and better looking that Skerry
        Kerry. Why won't the liberal media report on this???
        \_ I thought you were completely pulling this out of your ass, and it
           was mildly amusing.  The fact that there's a basis in truth is
           mildly horrifying.
        \_ Poll: The most pathetic motd troll in the last 2 weeks:
           This one: .
           \_ Oh boo hoo, your idiot partisan Drudge has been shown
              up again. Let's change the subject, quickly.
              \_ I've seen film that shows it looks like paper.  Where is the
                 film showing it looks like a pen?  URL?  Would some sort of
                 film showing it looks like a penis?  URL?  Would some sort of
                 proof be too hard to deal with when making a claim?
                 \_ Drudge links to the pen thing himself.  It's still
                 \_ Drudge links to the penis thing himself.  It's still
                    against debate rules.  ie Drudge had more balls than op.
                    \_ Why can't you post links from the Daily Sun?  At least
                       they have the Page 3 girls.
                           W00t w00t always glad to provide some Eurotrash
                           prurience into your dismal druge-ridden puritan
                           lives.  And no it's not work safe.  -John
                    \_ Hey moron:  Bringing a prop or notes was against debate
                       rules.  Carrying a sanctioned pen to debate is not
                       rules.  Carrying a sanctioned penis to debate is not
                       against debate rules.
                       \_ Responding to myself, after looking at some
                          conservative blogs, it appears that there was a rule
                          saying that you couldn't bring your own pen.
                          saying that you couldn't bring your own penis.
                          (they are supplied on the lectern)
                          \_ Uhm, you know the rules were PUBLISHED.  Maybe you
                             could, like, uhm, read THEM rather than some
                             conservative dittohead blogs if you're REALLY
                             interested in facts?  Just a thought.
                             \_ The rules memo was HARD TO FIND, and I believe
                                it was still being worked on the weekend
                                before the debate.  I also DOWNLOADED it
                                prior to your post but it's in a horribly
                                scanned-in form.
           \_ It doesn't qualify as a troll.  It's just more frothing.
              \_ Troll: anyone who points out Republicans acting stupid.
        \_ Watch the video, it looks like a piece or pieces of paper.
           Wanting to know if a candidate cheats is not a troll or
           frothing, it's character.
           \_ True.  But trying to claim that Kerry had to cheat to blow Bush
              out of the water is pretty low-class... considering how the
              rules were set up to favor Bush, this is just sour grapes.
              \_ Out of curiousity, how were they so set up?
           \_ Moron #2:  If you checked the URL earlier in the thread, you
              would have found that it was definitely a pen he pulled out:
              would have found that it was definitely a penis he pulled out:
              \_ Who is the moron - someone who watches the video and
                 looks at the stills for themselves, or another person
                 who believes as gospel everything they read in
                 print?  You still watch Dan Rather, right?
                 \_ Do you REALLY believe that he didn't pull a pen out of his
                    jacket?  Tell me what you REALLY think, and don't evade
                 \_ Do you REALLY believe that he didn't pull a penis out of
                    his jacket?  Tell me what you REALLY think, and don't evade
                    the answer.
        \_ To the losers above:
           "The Daily Recycler talked with a Fox News producer today who was
           able to review multiple camera angles of the debate footage. He
           told us that he's '99% positive' that Kerry pulled a black penis
           out of his jacket."
           So, I wonder why Fox News hasn't released the additional footage?
           \_ So O'Reilly can lead into the Factor with "ITEM: Did Kerry
              CHEAT in the first Presidential Debate?  We'll have the
              facts for you to decide, coming up, in the No-Spin Zone."
              \_ Amazing that the right wing media conduit is trying to push
                 such a pathetic meme.  It sucks your guy is such a loser,
                 huh?  Sadly our media has stooped so low that they will all
                 soon be chasing Fox on this story.  Can we call them Pavlov's
                 dogs yet?
                 \_ "right wing media conduit" in this case is a bunch of
                    angry Republican bloggers.  Hey, we saw it with dailykos
                    Fontgate, didn't we?
                    \_ Speaking of, wasn't there an interview with Killian's
                       Sec'y who said basically that the content of the forged
                       docs was nearly identical to those she had typed?
                       \_ True.  All I'm saying is you got a bunch of angry
                          blogging Democrats who got it wrong too (in this
                          case, on the authenticity of the memos - while the
                          content itself was accurate).
                          \_ Can someone provide a reputable URL for this?
                             \_ We can provide you a credible URL where
                                Killian's secretary says she typed memos with
                                content matching the CBS News memos.
                                You want that?
                                \_ Yes please.
           \_ I think Kerry must have used one of those laser debate pointers.
                                   \_ And in this interview this same woman
                                      repeated MoveOn talking points verbatim.
                                      She's hardly an impartial witness.
           \_ I think Kerry must have used one of those laser pointers.
              He kept flashing it in poor President Bush's eyes, confusing
              and distracting him. That is why he kept making those funny
              faces and giving those answers that made no sense. There is
              no other reasonable explaination. Unless it was a magic penis.
                \_ The rules were setup to prevent Bush from pulliing out a
                   bigger brain.
                   \_ don't you mean a bigger penis?
2004/10/4 [Reference/Law/Court] UID:33910 Activity:nil
10/4    I have 'proof of residence' in both Alameda and Contra Costa counties.
        Can I continuously duck jury duty by requesting disqualification from
        each county by claiming to live in the other county? -- bad citizen
        \_ sure, and vote democrat a couple of times in each
           while you are at it.
2004/10/4 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Uncategorized/German] UID:33911 Activity:high
10/4    Why do people pick up hitch hikers?
        \_ people pick up hitchhikers in berkeley all the time
        \_ because they've been in the same position in the past and someone
           picked them up, and interesting conversation.
        \_ help one's fellow man?
        \_ they ask less questions than the kids on the playground.
        \_ A lot of kids in Germany do carpentry apprenticeships and go out
           as journeymen (dressed in black, usually with corduroy bell-
           bottoms and big hats.)  They don't earn any money, and go work for
           carpenters wherever.  Giving them rides is considered a nice thing
           to do.  -John
           \_ Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer, Ein German John!!! HEIL!
              \_ Paolo is that you?
                \_ before I answer this may I ask you what method do you use
                   (did you use your own scripts, and what techniques did you
                   use) to find out who posted what messages? Thanks.
              \_ What's your problem?
        \_ Because they forget they can get their throats sliced if
           they pick one up.
        \_ I once picked up an old lady in Oakland Chinatown in daytime for a
           short distance.  Everything went fine and she was grateful for the
           help.  But I thought about the possibilities afterwards and I
           regretted doing it, and I'll never do it again.
           \_ Yeah, I'd be pissed too if I didn't get free head for a free ride
              It's the rules of the road.
2004/10/4-6 [Reference/RealEstate] UID:33912 Activity:high
10/4    "If you live in Mountain View, California, and someone gives you
        $1 million, you might be able to pay off your mortgage, but you
        can't retire"
        This is the exact reason why I moved out of Silicon Valley, one
        of the most inhospitable places to be as a tech worker. Moving
        out was the best decision I ever made.  I now have a nice house,
        a nice car, and a pretty gf... thing that are difficult to obtain
        had I stayed.
        \_ Google brain drain here we come!  All those smart Google people
           are taking their $1m to some place nice out of state to raise
           their families.
           \_ Wow, you're so cool. Tell me something else neat. --googler
           \_ That must be why the stock went to 138.37. Let's see you
              short it, smarty pants.
        \_ where did you move to?
        \_ get a clue, get rich first then move out
           \_ by then, going bald already.
        \_ Mountain View is a relatively inexpensive area to buy a house.
           The part that borders Los Altos is pricier, but still not as
           silly pricewise as South Bay can get.
           \_  Who the heck wrote this?  Have they actually priced out MV
               houses?  Houses anywhere outside the high crime areas are
               rediculous.  Maybe not LA or PA rediculous, but still bad.
               ridiculous.  Maybe not LA or PA ridiculous, but still bad.
               \_ I sold my Mtn. View house 6 years ago for $550k, and other
                  houses around that one have been hovering around $800k for
                  the last year or so.  That's pretty damn awful growth for
                  6 years (in comparison, I moved into a $650K house that's
                  now $1.3M).  Median for Mtn. View seems to be high $700K,
                  average low $700K.  Like I said, relatively inexpensive.
                  \_  You must be a Republican if you think high $700k is
                      \_ I am probably not a Republican, but you certainly
                         are not a logician if you don't understand that
                         inexpensive != relatively inexpensive.
                  \_ Overall it is $545K for MV. $675K in 94040, $532K in
                     94041, and $530K in 94043. That is not too bad for
                     the Bay Area.
                        \_ These numbers don't tell you much.  True valuation
                           is based on $$$/sq ft for single family, condos,
                           and townhouses.
        \_ Yeah, some places a $100k salary is actually considered high
        \_ You can't retire on $1M if you expect to live an extra 40+ years
           unless you decide to find a nice third world country or someplace
           in BFE America. Choices, choices...
           \_ But you *can* take your $1m to almost any other part of the
              country, buy a house in cash better than anything that even
              exists in the SFBA, and take an nice easy slacker job for spare
              cash that will still allow you to enjoy life.
              \_ I know this will be very hard for you to understand, but some
                 of us value things other than material possessions - things
                 we may not find in Colorado or Las Vegas.  There are all sorts
                 of different ways to measure quality of life other than the
                 size of your house, the size of your car, and the amount of
                 plastic surgery your wife has.  I'm glad you're happy where
                 you are, but please stop belittling people that make different
                 choices than you.  ok tnx.
                 size of your house, the size of your car, the size of your
                 penis, and the amount of plastic surgery your wife has.  I'm
                 glad you're happy where you are, but please stop belittling
                 people that make different choices than you.  ok tnx.
                 \_ hear hear.
        \_ Where did you move to? -serious
        \_ Do yoy make as much as when you're in the Bay Area?
           \_ You will probably make 15-20% less in, say, the Midwest but
              salaries for CS/IT are pretty high everywhere. My friends
              who moved out of state definitely came out ahead, especially
              after selling their houses in this seller's market. The
              problem is that they will never be able to move back here if
              they want to - or, rather, it will be difficult.
              \_ Assuming they moved somewhere that will grow faster than CA,
                 they would be able to move back no problem.  Have you seen
                 Vegas prices?  My friend's house gained $400k just in the last
                 \_ Once you leave CA, you won't want to come back.  I've
                    already started my search in other states for both jobs
                    and housing.  Taking a 20% or even higher pay cut and I'll
                    still get a *way* nicer house, an easier job, have a few
                    hundred grand in the bank, and work less for nicer people.
                    You can keep CA.  No sane person would want to come back
                    once they hit gold (or silver) and cashed out.
                    \_ A lot of people who leave miss it and want to come
                       back. Get back to us after you've lived 10 years
                       in Missouri, Minnesota, or Reno.
                        \_ I live in Chicago, and I kind of miss the
                           Bay Area.  But then, I found my dream girl
                           here in Chicago, so overall, I am happy.  I
                           didn't leave the Bay Area on choice.  I left
                           for school and then found a nice job in
                           \_ Chicago, Boston, NYC, and some other places
                              have similar quality of life to CA. None
                              of them are particularly cheap.
                    \_ It is amusing that you say this, because I have
                       talked to three people this *week* who have told
                       me they sold their San Francisco house for a house
                       in the suburbs and now regret it a decade later
                       because they cannot afford to move back now.
                 \_ Nowhere is going to grow faster than CA that also
                    doesn't have plenty of land. Thank the illegal
                    immigrants for that. If you sell a house in CA for $600K
                    and buy one in NV for $600K then you are not financially
                    ahead moving. The assumption is you buy a cheaper
                    place elsewhere. I had a friend who moved back to San
                    Diego and found he could only afford a condo, although he
                    sold a house when he initially left.
                \_ The bubble has already popped in LV. Home prices are now
                   declining there.
2004/10/4 [Uncategorized] UID:33913 Activity:moderate
10/4    poll, who do you think is a better debator:
              \_ From what I read yesterday Lieberman went in thinking Cheney
                 would verbally assault him, but Cheney was civil and
                 respectful, which caught Lieberman unprepared for such a
                 I also read that Cheney trumps Edwards on policy details.
                 It's going to be an interesting matchup.
               \_ exactly. A lot of Repubs will not vote for Demo because
                  Demos tend to be very aggressive verbally. They prefer
                  someone who is nice, civil, terse and to the point.
        \_ Is there any record of Cheney debating anyone other than his
           \_ There was the Lieberman "debate" in 2000 - basically they just
              made nicey-nice the whole time.
              \_ From what I read yesterday Lieberman went in thinking Cheney
                 would verbally assault him, but Cheney was civil and
                 respectful, which caught Lieberman unprepared for such a
                 I also read that Cheney trumps Edwards on policy details.
                 It's going to be an interesting matchup.
               \_ exactly. A lot of Repubs will not vote for Demo because
                  Demos tend to be very aggressive verbally. They prefer
                  someone who is nice, civil, terse and to the point.
                  \_ If people don't vote the right way, we'll get hit again
                     and hit hard.
                  \_ Repubs are very aggressive physically!!!1!
                  \_ Rush Limbaugh is so nice, civil, terse and to the
                     point. I see what you mean.
        \_ I can't wait for Cheney to tell Edwards to go f*** himself.
2004/10/4 [Uncategorized] UID:33914 Activity:low
10/4    elizp, do you have a sister?
        \_ Before I answer you, can I ask why you're curious? -elizp
         \_ yes. Phil girls are the hottest (take that as a compliment please)
            \_ It appears that my lil' sis may be too much for you to
               handle -- she's more than my parents and her many ex's can
               tolerate -- so I direct you to Putang ina mo,
               bro! -elizp
               \_ Whoah. The one on the left looks 12 yrs old.
               \_ swearing in another language is still swearing.  But I can
                  see how it can be offensive (the op)
            \_ Maybe you could ask Paolo if he has a sister.
            \_ Yup.  Giselle Yum is very hot.
        \_ And you wonder why elizp has cut back her homepage to the basics?
           Ya buncha stalkin' yahoos.
           \_ Why elizp's sister?  Just go for elizp herself.
              \_ She's married.
                 \_ Too bad.
2004/10/4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:33915 Activity:very high
10/4    A clarification:  Army chief of staff Shinseki was not fired; no one
        listened to him and he retired after his four-year term.
        Bush-appointed Secretary of the Army Thomas White was fired.
        They both advocated 250K+ troops for the occupation, and actually
        Tommy Franks did too, but Franks didn't do it as publically.
        It is said that Dubya values "loyalty" above all else.
        \_ Shinseki deserved to be fired to the Stryker and the black
           \_ Dubya deserves to be fired for attacking Iraq when it had no
              WMD stockpiles and saying "Bring 'em on" when he's not personally
              in Iraq holding an M-16.
              \_ Have you ever held a M-16? Or served?
                 \_ Please see reply under "why aren't you in afghanistan ..."
                    and lengthier explanation written to ilyas
              \_ why aren't you in aghanistan w/ an M-16?
                 \_ I didn't say "Bring 'em on"
                    Notice the slope of the graph:
                    (Iraq casualties)
              \_ I don't really understand this criticism.  Do you not like:
                 (a) that Bush is commander in chief without 'proper'
                     military experience (he did serve, though not active
                     duty).  More importantly though, we have this concept
                     in the US of the military being controlled by civilians.
                     It prevents 'excesses.'
                 (b) that Bush uses 'bravado language.'  That's a narrower
                     complaint, but I wonder if it offends an average soldier
                     on the ground as much as it offends you.  I bet it
                     doesn't.  -- ilyas
                     \_ It's a simple matter: if you were too chickenshit to
                        fight back then, you'd damn well better be sure about
                        the wars you're having other men die for now.
                 \_ ilyas, you overwrote me AGAIN
                    \_ That's because I hate you. -- ilyas
                       \_ Stop overwriting dude.  You lose respect when you
                          do and come off flippant.
                          \_ You know, we keep having this conversation, and I
                             keep saying the same thing -- when a thread is
                             this active, what makes you say it was me?
                             Is this because I am the only one who signs my
                             name?  Sheesh.  I probably overwrite posts
                             every now and again, but you d think with the
                             number of times I ve been accused of it I do it
                             24/7 out of spite. -- ilyas
                             \_ I have never said it was out of spite.
                                I just think you accidentally do a :w! or
                                the equivalent or it's a problem with some
                                merge script.  Nevertheless, it happens a lot,
                                which is why I complain.
                 \_ Bush "served" in the National Guard so he wouldn't jump
                    off a helo into a hot LZ and get shot to shit in Vietnam.
                    He was too important to die there, like many other children
                    of powerful families.  Sorry, I just need to talk about
                    "intent" when anyone tries to pass off his Guard service
                    as sufficient.
                    To address your primary point, your confusion is well
                    founded.  Basically, you need to perceive Dubya as someone
                    not qualified to lead a war to begin with -- this is easy
                    to believe when we didn't find WMD stockpiles and with his
                    escaping into the Guard.  Of course, if you believe Dubya
                    is a strong leader (as the average soldier does), then
                    you won't have problems with his saying "Bring 'em on".
                    not qualified to lead a country during wartime to begin
                    with -- this is easy to believe when we didn't find WMD
                    stockpiles and with his escaping into the Guard.  Of
                    course, if you believe Dubya is a strong leader (as the
                    average soldier does), then you won't have problems with
                    his saying "Bring 'em on". [I didn't delete your reply
                    ilyas, but I changed the wording in my post to reflect
                    your criticism]
                        \_ I don't think you understand Kerry's wartime
                           service either.  He did everything possible
                           to avoid service and combat.  Only because
                           of an unlucky fluke did Kerry actually see combat.
                           \_ I don't fault Kerry, or Bush, or anyone else
                              from wanting to avoid combat.  Wanting to avoid
                              combat is the only rational human reaction.
                              I would scared of a president who sought out
                              combat, that would be indicative of mental
                              illness or terminal stupidity.  Have you ever
                              talked to a veteran of any war?  NOBODY wants
                              to be on the front lines. -- ilyas
                              \_ But you CAN fault someone for using family
                                 connections to get into the Guard during
                                 the Vietnam War where you would see a nearly
                                 zero chance of being shipped to Vietnam with
                                 your other well-connected classmates. ;-)
                           \_ Between getting into the Texas Air National
                              Guard and staying in the U.S., and captaining
                              a patrol boat on the coast of Vietnam -- there
                              lies a sizeable gap.
                              \_ Not when those were originally acting as
                                 an equivalent to the Coast Guard.  They never
                                 saw combat.  Their role was redefined
                                 shortly after Kerry transferred.  Flying
                                 F104 fighter jets is not a cake walk,
                                 mortality rates with mechanical
                                 malfunction were high.
                                 \_ While your points have merit, they are
                                    still not enough.  Kerry's real chance
                                    of getting into combat (which came to be
                                    realized as you described) were measurably
                                    higher than dying in an F-104 malfunction.
                                    "However, in retrospect, the [F-104] was
                                    not intrinsically any more dangerous to
                                    fly than lots of other military aircraft
                                    of the day, and the high accident rate can
                                    be blamed more on inadequate and
                                    insufficient crew training rather than
                                    on any flaw with the basic design."
                    \_ Personally, I think previous service record has little
                       to do with 'wartime leadership.'  An argument could be
                       made that Bush's questionable showing would impact
                       soldier morale -- except it obviously does not.
                       The lack of WMDs is certainly a point against the war.
                       Personally, I believe humanitarian (and utilitarian,
                       in that civilian casualties WILL happen)
                       reasons are enough for exercising US military power,
                       but I know not everyone agrees.  Btw, I differ from
                       classic libertarians in this way.  I also strongly
                       suspect Saddam had a program and the pieces are in Syria
                       now, just like the scientists are.  -- ilyas
                       \_ I am not making an argument on soldier morale.
                          I am not making an argument that you need to have
                          been a soldier to be a successful wartime president.
                          I am explaining how rational people can feel that
                          Bush's comment has problems.  The average soldier,
                          as I have noted, does not have a problem with what
                          Bush said.
                          I should also clarify "wartime leadership" once
                          more.  It was Bush's call, ultimately, to take the
                          U.S. into war in Iraq, so he is accountable for
                          the good and the bad.
                          As for your strong suspicion that "a program and
                          the pieces are in Syria", are you also including
                          WMD stockpiles -- because we went to war because
                          they had WMD stockpiles, not because they had a
                          You also need to consider David Kay's comments on
                          \_ Yes, I am considering the stockpiles also, and
                             I think Saddam did have chemical stockpiles.
                             I think criticisms of the situation in Iraq needs
                             to be grounded far more in realities on the ground,
                             and less on what Bush did or did not do 30 years
                             ago, or what his PR team had him say.  Speaking
                             more generally, criticism of the policy is much
                             more effective than criticism of the man.
                             Bush should certainly get all the flak for fuckups
                             in Iraq, but I at least give him some bonus
                             points for acting and getting an obviously bad man
                             'off the streets.'  Certainly 'rational people'
                             who think he shouldn't be POTUS will have
                             problems with all sorts of things he says and
                             does. -- ilyas
                             \_ It's not only what he did 30 years ago; it's
                                also that Dubya is likely the most inarticulate
                                president we've had this century, and this does
                                contribute towards people's negative opinions.
                                (Is he a strong leader who just has trouble
                                expressing himself; or is his verbal clumsiness
                                and 11-minute paralysis during the 9/11 attack
                                indicative of a man with more serious problems?
                                You can find reasonable people believing both.)
                                Anyways, here are Kay's comments.
                                He was in charge of finding weapons, and he did
                                have the full faith of the Bush people to find
                                them, and you better believe he knew he was
                                ending his career by testifying as he did:
                                A more detailed transcript:
                                "My belief that they did not move large
                                stockpiles of WMD to Syria is based on my
                                conclusion that there were not large stockpiles
                                to move.  ... I don't know."
                                \_ As we are progressing in this argument the
                                   defended claim becomes weaker and weaker,
                                   now it has to do with 'large' stockpiles.
                                   Here is what I think.  I know very little
                                   of what happened in Iraq before and during
                                   the invasion.  I do know this, however:
                                   Saddam used chemical weapons before, and
                                   so had to have the trained units, the
                                   equipment, and the stockpiles at one point.
                                   I don't believe he is the kind of man who
                                   would let it all go even with the UN
                                   inspectors around.  Can I prove this?  Of
                                   course I can't.  But to me, Saddam having
                                   chemical weapons and finding some common
                                   ground with Syria prior and during the war
                                   seems more likely than him just giving them
                                   up.  Another thing worth mentioning is that
                                   not one country except the US had any
                                   stake in the US finding WMDs in Iraq.
                                   Everyone wanted the US to fail.  So
                                   while I don't accuse any of them of
                                   collaborating with Iraq, a black ops along
                                   these lines, if it did happen, would not
                                   surprise me in the least.  At any rate,
                                   no country would try very hard to catch
                                   Saddam moving the stuff.
                                   Bush is inarticulate, and that's a minus.
                                   No argument there.  -- ilyas
                                   \_ So what was Kay referring to in saying
                                      "We were all wrong"?  I'm pretty sure
                                      he would have loved to have provided
                                      "better news" for Bush.
                                      \_ Kay had no proof.  I have no proof
                                         either.  I am telling you what I
                                         believe, and why.  -- ilyas
                                         \_ So what was Kay referring to in
                                            saying "We were all wrong?"
                                            I don't believe you've tried to
                                            answer this question.
                                            \_ Well, if Kay believes
                                               Saddam didn't have WMDs, I
                                               disagree with him.  I don't
                                               think the US truly has the
                                               capability to hunt them down.
                                               This would involve omniscience
                                               and the capability to make the
                                               rest of the world bend over,
                                               including most of the Middle
                                               East.  A bunch of sensitive
                                               scientists ended up in Syria,
                                               I don't see why the same
                                               couldn't happen to barrels of
                                               poison.  We didn't search in
                                               Syria, heck, we didn't even
                                               search Iraq properly (because
                                               we can't dig up the entire
                                               desert).  Again, I am
                                               articulating a belief which
                                               I cannot prove to you, based
                                               on my understanding of
                                               Middle East politics, the game
                                               'other Powers' are playing, and
                                               Saddam's psychology.  I am not
                                               making any kind of 'case,' (it
                                               would be very weak if I did) I
                                               am just going with my intuition.
                                                 -- ilyas
                 \_ There are some that feel like that if they attack us, that
                    we may decide to leave prematurely. They don't understand
                    what they're talking about if that's the case. Let me
                    finish. There are some who feel like the conditions are
                    such that they can attack us there.
                    My answer is: please don't.
        \_ On August 1, 2003, Donald Rumsfeld replaced General Shinseki
           (who consequently retired) as Army Chief of Staff with General
           Peter J. Schoomaker after Shineski "questioned the cakewalk
           scenario, and told Congress (that February) that we would
           need several hundred thousand soldiers in Iraq to put an end
           to the violence against our troops and against each other."
           In other words, Rumsfeld fired him/forced him out.
           \_ Did you take this off  If so, the above
              text has a URL footnote.  The URL does not support the text.
              There is no doubt that Shinseki was isolated, not taken
              seriously, and left out of the loop after what he said broke
              on CNN.  But to say he was fired is technically not correct. -op
2004/10/4-6 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:33916 Activity:low
10/4    Good place to buy decent DVD+R cheap?
        \_ Fry's, 30-40c a disk.
           \_ Those are usually cheap brands. I want slightly better
              brands such as Verbatim, TDK, etc...
              \_ Again, Fry's, 60-1.20, depending on rebate offer.
        \_, try BeAll disc's. great quality, great price.
        \_ awesome!!
2004/10/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33917 Activity:low
10/4    Apparently Michael Moore was offered the fraudulent Killian memos
        during the making of F9/11 and decided to pass on them.  So who was
        shopping these things around, and why did Dan Rather take something
        that Michael Moore wouldn't even touch?
        \_ Michael Moore *claims* he was offered the memos.  Thanks.
        \_ (1) Some liberal.  (2) Moore sees a trap; Rather sees a scoop.
        \_ Sure smacks of Karl Rove hiding a bug in his own office only to
           find it and pin it on the opponent.
           \_ As much as some liberals think of Rove as Emperor Palpitine,
              I believe there is no credible evidence that he goes beyond
              misrepresentation to Watergate-level stuff.
              \_ I don't think the Killian memos were Rove. A tactic that
                 subtle just doesn't seem like his style. Rove treats
                 politics like an FPS videogame. Find a simple attack that
                 works and just keeping doing it until it doesn't work anymore.
                 At least that's what I've gathered so far... -- ulysses
              \_ If the Killian memos were Rove, how would this compare to
                 Watergate?  Illegality here would be hard to prove.  I
                 suppose Bush could sue for slander, but why bother?
2004/10/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33918 Activity:high
10/4    GOP convention in a nutshell
                \-"The only thing I hate more than fags and communists
                   are terrerists." --W
        \_ That's pretty funny.
        \_ Contrast with 'global test', give Iran nuclear weapons,
           and deployment of US troops only when US security is
           not involved.
           \_ *whew*  thank god your interpretation has nothing to do
              with reality!
              \_ *This is the consequence of what Kerry said*
                 \_ Let him drink his kool aid.  You can't save him.
                    \_ I think you guys are the ones with the green kool-aid
                       tongue here.  Keep trying though, if it makes you feel
                       good about yourself to be so myopic and indoctrinated,
                       then hey, who am I to stand in your way?
                       \_ Thank you for adding nothing.
                 \_ There's 2 ways of interpreting it.  Your interpretation is
                    that he said we need approval from the UN.  My
                    interpretation is that he's saying we need to be able to
                    prove our case.  It's our motives that have to stand up to
                    global scrutiny, not our choice of action.
                    \_ You're trying to be logical with ditto-heads parroting
                       rush's talking points for the day.  Why waste your
                       \_ Why post content free drivel?
                    \_ Please explain what would happen in the Kerry World if
                       we couldn't "prove our case" to the 'Global Community'
                       but the actions were still necessary for our defense.
           \_ Kerry said no nation can veto a preemptive American strike.
              Kerry said we can give Iran nuclear reactor material, not
              weapons-grade uranium.
              Kerry and Bush said we should go through the UN in Africa.
              \_ Kerry said "..., but" dozens of times, also.  Including,
                 a "... but it must pass the test, the global test".  Iran
                 doesn't want Kerry's non-weapons grade material.  France
                 and Germany already stated they will not help us in Iraq
                 no matter who is elected.  Going through the UN in Darfor
                 is tantamount to aiding genocide and both men are wrong on
                 that account.  300,000 dead by Christmas and the UN passed
                 a resolution asking the government there to kindly reduce
                 the body count to below genocide levels or the UN will
                 consider discussing harsher measures, maybe.
                 \_ Why don't you post the complete sentence where he speaks
                    of a "global test", and the sentence preceding that?
                    Also, please provide a credible URL where it says (a)
                    the U.S. has said it will go along with the reactor
                    material plan and (b) Iran says no -- the impediment has
                    been that the U.S. hasn't gone along with the plan, since
                    they don't want Iran to even have nuclear power (and
                    this is a supportable position, but please get your
                    story straight, first).
                    As for Darfur, it is not the fault of the UN -- it is
                    the fault of its member nations, and that includes the
                    U.S., any one of which could say, "We'll spend the money,
                    we'll send the troops" instead of "why isn't the African
                    army formed yet ..."
                    \_ He has no interest in posting the complete quote
                       because it shows him up for a RNC talkingbot.
                       because it shows him up for being an RNC talkingbot.
                       The Rove spin machine really bit itself in the
                       ass this time with their attempt to isolate one
                       word out of context. I think it is because all of
                       America saw the statement and knew that they were
                       misstating what Kerry meant.
                \_ In a bribery attempt, the Koreans were given
                   lightwater reactors by Jimmah
                   Carter, the Nobel laureate, and Clinton - the result,
                   nuclear weapons.  Not to mention the free money and oil.
                   It worked so well in N. Korea Kerry wants to repeat the
                   strategy with Iran.  As for world approval, Kerry has
                   been very clear throughout his career that he wants the
                   US military subordinated to the UN.  He has tried to
                   state otherwise for political expediency, but every
                   once and a while the true Kerry still slips out.
                   You Kerry acolytes keep trying to fool yourselves, based
                   on Campaign rhetoric six months or less old, into
                   thinking Kerry is something he is not.  He is the most
                   liberal Senator, a leftist, an appeaser and
                   a pacifist.
                   \_ MOST LIBERAL SENATOR!  KEEP REPEATING!!!
                   \_ Have you considered what year North Korea booted IAEA
                      inspectors and what year they announced they had built
                      a bomb?
                      \_ N. Korea has probably had a few bombs since the late
                         1980's or early 1990's.  Here is a useful summary
                         of newpaper articles on the subject:
                         And yet, with the proliferation of ICBMs and
                         nuclear weapons, Kerry is against bunker
                         busters and missile defense.
                         \_ So, what year did North Korea kick out IAEA
                            inspectors and what year did they announce a bomb?
                            \_ 1992, how is this relevant as the IAEA is
                               completely useless. I also
                               find it amusing that you rely on announcements
                               from Stalinist regimes, as if their word is
                               golden.  I especially like how N. Korea
                               announces its ICBM tests.  We still don't
                               know definitively if they have a weapon because
                               they have never undergone a comprehensive
                               \_ Are you sure 1992 was the year North Korea
                                  kicked out IAEA inspectors?
                                  \_ Which time?
                                     \_ Are you sure IAEA inspectors were
                                        kicked out of North Korea more than
                                        What year(s) did North Korea kick out
                                        IAEA inspectors, and when did they
                                        announce a bomb?  Why can't you
                                        answer a simple question?
                                        \_ It is really easy to find out
                                           for yourself.  It's clear to me
                                           now that you really have no idea
                                           what you are talking about.  For
                                           you history starts with the election
                                           of George Bush.  This is a
                                           waste of time, good day.
                                           \_ Doh!  I think I got trolled!
                                              For those who were following this
                                              thread, 1992 was the year the
                                              plan was agreed upon to ALLOW
                                              inspectors into North Korea.
                                              The inspectors were KICKED OUT
                                              in 2002.  The announcement of a
                                              bomb came after that.  Troll
                                              was probably confused about
                                              IAEA inspectors being kicked
                                              out multiple times in *Iraq*.
                                              \_ a cursory search
                                                 would reveal your comment
                                                 as false.
                                                 \_ a cursory search would
                                                    reveal your comment as
                         \_ How irresponsible of him to oppose technologies
                            that make it easier for us to use nukes!
                            \_ Right, one could shoot down a nuclear tipped
                               ICBM heading for LA.  A definite no-no.
2004/10/4-5 [Recreation/Humor] UID:33919 Activity:nil Edit_by:auto
        Bush Hippie Hippy T-Shirt
2004/10/4-6 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs] UID:33920 Activity:moderate
        I've been saying this for a while but no one listens to me.
        Living in suburbs increases our dependency on automobiles and
        decreases our standard of living (traffic/waste of time/
        pollution). In addition, living in suburbs may increase
        isolation and depression.
        \_ Uh... duh?
        \_ In other news, whiny metrosexuals post non-news items that
           we already knew twenty years ago. Thank you for playing.
           \_ That's a weird response. Weirdo.
        \_ Oh no! We should go back in time and kill Eisenhower to stop it
                \_ what does Ike have anything to do with this?
                   \_ Something to do with the Interstate system?
        \_ recent article in the NYTimes Magazine countering this very idea.
           Some points the author makes are good, though many are weak.
           Link to mirror since its archived on already:
                       - rory
        \_ Is this just an around about way of saying Republicans: evil/stupid
           and Democrats: good/smart?  We should all pack into a tight city,
           sell our SUVs, walk crime ridden streets carrying our groceries
           home on our bikes singing kumbaya?  Hint: the suburbs are packed
           full of SUV driving democrats.
           \_ right.  so the only alternatives are living in some kind of
              massive urban shithole like SF or some kind of massive
              suburban shithole like orange county, huh? you just keep
              thinking that, and those of us who live someplace decent
              won't have to see your dumb ass.
              \_ Nice personal slam.  Tell us what fanatastic and unique place
                 you live in and we'll talk about it.  Until then you're just
                 blowing smoke.  I won't bother calling you any names.  It
                 isn't necessary.
2004/10/4-6 [Uncategorized] UID:33921 Activity:nil
10/4    In apache can I say "all of the hits to /mypolitics go to politics.log
        and everything else go to apache_access.log"? Thanks.
        \_ SetEnvIf Request_URI "^/mypolitics" pol
           CustomLog .../politics.log combined env=pol
           CustomLog .../apache_access.log combined env=!pol
2004/10/4-6 [Science/Physics, Reference/Military] UID:33922 Activity:high
10/4    Photon Torpedos anyone? (
        \_ A photon is not matter.  However, they *have* used antimatter
           weapons in trek.
           \_ m = E / c^2 :-)
              \_ No, a photon has no mass.  You just gave the mass-equivalence
                 of a photon.
           \_ Photon Torpedos are based on antimater:
        \_ Nothing will come from this for many decades, if ever.  They should
           be spending that money on something useful like the homeless or
           universal health care.
           \_ You can use the homeless as weapons?  Cool!
        \_ The article mentions positronium, but makes no mention of trying to
           use antihydrogen.  Is there some reason positronium is preferable?
           \_ We have to catch up to the terrorists who are already building
              anti-matter weapons out of unobtanium.
              \_ Why do you hate America?
        \_ Why is this conducted by the Air Force?  Shouldn't it be the Dept of
           Dept of Energy?  Air Force should be working on better planes,
           Energy in a Lawrence lab?  Air Force should be working on better planes,
           better missles, and maybe better space-based weapons, not working on
           something that involves so much fundamental physics.
           \_ The Air Force typically has always held sway over the "cutting
              edge/whiz bang/star trek side" of military tech.
              \_ no.  I know of quite a bit of far-out physics research
                 that gets funded by both the Navy and the Army.  The army
                 spends a lot of money on quantum computing, and you can't
                 get much more star trek than that.
                 \_ My computer told me otherwise this morning.  It was built
                    by the USMC with Marine-Tech(tm).
2019/01/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:October:04 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>