Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:September:29 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>
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2004/9/29 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold] UID:33822 Activity:nil
9/28    Arnold officially enters the Twilight Zone:
        http://www.sfexaminer.com/article/index.cfm/i/092804b_governor
2004/9/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33823 Activity:nil 69%like:33829
9/28    Best Bush flashback ever.  From 2000 election,
        "Bush Would Use the Power of Persuasian to Raise Oil Supply"
        http://www.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/062800wh-bush.html
        \_ Bush did convince the Saudis to open the spigot, you know.
           Problem is it's still not enough.
2004/9/29 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:33824 Activity:nil
9/28    For extra fun, every time they say "Jew," substitute "homosexual"
        and suddenly everyone sounds like Jimmy Swaggart!
        http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD79104
        Oh, and if you're wondering what MEMRI's biases are, go here:
        http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=MEMRI
        \_ What do you sound like when you replace "Jew" with "whitey"?
2004/9/29-10/2 [Uncategorized] UID:33825 Activity:nil
9/28    Is anyone looking for a Senior QA Engineer?  This is someone
        I am working with now, and is very good. --jwm
        67.126.27.66/mark/coverletter1.html
2004/9/29 [Uncategorized] UID:33826 Activity:nil
9/28    If and when someone makes a Tony Blair biopic, wouldn't Tim Curry be
        the perfect pick for the leading role? Who else has teeth like that?
        -- ulysses
2004/9/29 [Science/Disaster] UID:33827 Activity:insanely high
9/29    Earthquake again!  Same time as yesterday.
        \_ Isn't that special? They must be warming HAARP up for the election.
           -- tin hat brigade
           -- foil hat brigade
           \_ Must.  Drive.  West.
        \_ Huh? What are you talking about?
           \_ Go ahead an pretend ignorance. We all know what you're hiding.
2004/9/29-30 [Computer/HW/Printer] UID:33828 Activity:low
9/29    Any recommendations for a photo-quality printer that will run
        under Linux? I'd like to keep it under $1000.
        \_ for $1k you can get a Xerox Phaser 8400 dye sub
           which will look better than almost any inkjet out there
           if you are looking for much cheaper, you can get a high
           quality Epson or Canon Pixma for ~$500. Both Epson and Canon
           just announced their next gen. photo inkjets.
           \_ Will these work under Linux?
2004/9/29 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33829 Activity:high 69%like:33823
9/28    Best Bush 2000 flashback ever.  Bush would "use the power of
        persuasian" to lower oil prices.
        http://www.nytimes.com/library/politics/camp/062800wh-bush.html
        \_ Bush did convince the Saudis to open the spigot, you know.
           Problem is it's still not enough.
           \_ You missed the best line in the article though:
              Asked why the Clinton administration had not been able to use
              the power of personal persuasion, Mr. Bush said: "The
              fundamental question is, 'Will I be a successful president
              when it comes to foreign policy?' "
        \_ I can believe people get so uppity about oil prices.  $2 a
           gallon is really freaking cheap.  The evidence is that people
           are driving around in cars much bigger than they could
           possiably need.  All those people commuting to work in F-250s
           like to whine about oil prices, but they are just making it
           really obvious that oil is dirt cheap. -jrleek
           \_ Not to mention Mercedes sedans that look small but get less than
              20MPG on highway.
              \_ Why single out Mercedes? All of the major manufacturers are
                 guilty of this, with their blind horsepower quests of the
                 last five years or so.  And the cars have all been
                 generally getting bigger - its just that they look
                 small next to the other behemoths on the road.  Compare
                 a modern Accord, for instance, with one from even
                 five years ago.
                 \_ But even a low-end C-Class, which looks pretty compact,
                    gets less than 20MPG on highway.  Anyway, people only pick
                    on SUVs but not these deceiving cars.  My SUV has better
                    mileage than that.
                    \_ According to fueleconomy.gov you are incorrect. C-class
                       gets ~26MPG.
                       \_ And that's the 2.6L V6.  The 3.2L V6 gets 27 hwy,
                          and the tiny C230 Kompressor that he's complaining
                          about specs at 30, almost identical to all other
                          cars in its class.  He's just a hater.
           \_ It may be cheap relative to other things, but it's expensive
              historically speaking.  If salt went up to $5/lb, it would still
              be dirt-cheap for food purposes, but people would rightly
              ask "WTF?"
              \_ It's cheap historically too, if you adjust for inflation.
           \_ Wow, jrleek and I agree on something.  That said, our economy
              is fairly dependent upon cheap oil.  Adjustment will be
              painful.
              \_ And who are you, mystery man?
                 \_ Who knows?  The shadow knows!
              \_ One of the annoying things (to me) in this election is
                 that niether Bush nor Kerry has a realistic energy
                 policy. -jrleek
2004/9/29 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:33830 Activity:insanely high
9/29    (Wow, high SNR ratio today.)
        \_ Well, I guess it's about time I went to the ATM machine.  As long
           as it's CPU unit is working I'll use it's UI interface to deposit
           money in my IRA account.  Fucker.
           \_ What?  And learn "it's" usage.
              \_  Dear fuckwit, "it's" is a contraction of "it is."  Now
                  fuck off.
                  \_ It's precious is sensitive today.
        \_ We've been kept busy by yermom.
           \_ Why even post this?  It's not funny, creative, intelligent, or
              even an interesting part of csua culture.
              \_ Because the CSUA is full of crude, uncreative idiots?
                 Enjoy your stay!
                 \_ s/CSUA/motd/
                 \_ ^the CSUA^yermom
2004/9/29-30 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:33831 Activity:kinda low
9/29    I'm looking for a mini-PC type of deal, similar to Soekris.  Need
        1 or 2 100mb rj45 ports, USB2, and maybe vga.  Booting off CF would
        be fine (I can use external drives for bigger stuff.)  I'd prefer
        something fanless.  Any recommendations?  Soekris seems a bit
        expensive for what they offer.  -John
        \_ I'm looking for the same thing. (Soekris uses 486. How quaint!)
           Related question: How many times can CF be rewritten?
           \_ I've heard 100,000x quoted before.  Use RAM for stuff that
              changes a lot and treat CF more like a hard disk without a swap
              file.
        \_ OK I found something -- http://mini-itx.com looks pretty decent.  -John
2004/9/29 [Recreation/Dating] UID:33832 Activity:nil
9/29    Kobe, why you gotta drag Shaq into this??
        http://csua.org/u/99b (LA Times)
        Hours after his sexual encounter with a hotel employee in Colorado,
        Kobe Bryant told investigators that Shaquille O'Neal, his Laker
        teammate at the time, had paid up to $1 million to women to keep
        them quiet about "situations like this," according to a police report.
        \_ "It is unclear precisely what Bryant meant by the remarks
           attributed to him. There have been no published reports of
           O'Neal ever being accused of any sex crime."
           Sounds like Bryant is doing the right thing...
2004/9/29-30 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:33833 Activity:moderate
9/29    Does bittorrent work with Linux? I've been trying to download it but
        it's in a damn RPM and I don't have root access.
        \_ Umm, most bittorrent clients aren't RPM's.. in fact, the first
           one was written entirely in python
        \_ Get the Azureus client off sourceforge.  Nicest one I've seen and
           runs in Java.
                \_ alright I downloaded the jar, how do I friggin use it
                   when they don't have HOwTOs and documentations?
                   \_ "How do I run a Java program?" STFW.
                \_ java -jar Azureus2.1.0.4.jar
        Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/eclipse/swt/widgets/Display
        So what is this eclipse shit? Man the documentation sucks.
        \_ It sounds like you might have an old version of the JRE.
        \_ You want to do torrent downloads on a machine and you don't have
           root?  Have you checked your user agreement?
        \_ I'm on DSL so I tried using this to limit the transfer
           rate as to not piss off my apartmentmates:
                http://ei.kefro.st/projects/btclient
           However, it's still pretty lame as DSL is slow, so I've
           been thinking that I should use Linux at work with a much
           bigger bandwidth. However, I don't have root to install
           the RPMs.                                    -op
           \_ Azureus also does upstream bandwidth limiting, and running a P2P
              app at work is a good way to get your ass fired.
2004/9/29-30 [Consumer/CellPhone] UID:33834 Activity:moderate
9/29    How do I temporarily block caller id when calling someone?
        I want to stalk someone.
        \_ And you've come to the right place. motd is full of stalkers.
           \_ kchang isn't here anymore
                \_ can someone please tell me about the kchang/lila love
                   affair and how it turned bitter?
                \_ fact 1: kchang kept asking her out
                   fact 2: lila kept saying no
                   fact 3: they're both fond of each other. Case in
                     point: http://www.rootcellar.net/kchang
                   fact 4: kchang must be blind to want to go out with
                     with lila. Either that or he has some sort of
                     weird fetish.
                     \_ Lila is attractive in the photo of her with long
                        hair. Maybe she should give it another try.
              \_ what about waner?
        \_ *82 before dialing then umber
           \_ I thought *67
              \_ this only works from home phone? what about company
                 line that requires a 9 to dial out?
        \_ Put a strong magnet next to the phone cord.  That will disrupt the
           caller-ID signal.
           \_ this is bs.
           \_ this seriously works.  you should try it.
           \_ Why would it work?  The ID isn't generated from anything in
              the caller's house.  (Unless you mean putting a magnet next to
              the callee's phone.  But if you're there you're not merely
              stalking anymore.)
              \_ The magnet generates electromagnetic interference in the line
                 which disrupts the caller ID signal.
2004/9/29 [Science/GlobalWarming, Science/Physics] UID:33835 Activity:high
9/29    What an embarrassment for Nature.  The editors and Mann of global
        warming fame are beginning to look very suspicious.
        http://www.climate2003.com
        http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/fallupdate04/update.fall04.html
        \_ The editors of Nature are known to be jackasses.  Talk to anyone
           who has been in any field of science at a high level for long
           enough to have dealt with them, and they'll all tell you this.
           And it's not just sour grapes.  I know pleny of people who've
           been published in Nature multiple times who think this.  As far
           as this stupid "dogleg plot" controversy goes, peer review is
           only as good as the peers of the person who submits the paper.
           Some fields have a lot of jackasses in them.  Just for shits and
           grins, you should go through the old copies of Nature from a
           hundred years ago or more in the stacks of a university
           library and see how nasty scientific controversies were back
           then.  Believe it or not, they were worse.
           \_ Were there scientific controversies 100 years ago that were
              used as evidence to promote the wholesale realignment of
              global industrial policy?
           \_ Yeah, there are some pretty horriable peer review stories out
              there.  We had a talk here at LLNL a month or so back about
              using bad computer data in published papers.  The peer review
              process let a lot of really bad science pass.  (Like, you can
              see that this graph increases linearly!  When investigated, it
              turns out they only plotted 2 points. etc.)
        \_ Are you a Republican?
           \_ Why do you ask?  Because only Republicans require good data to
              base their decisions on? -!op
              \_ There's no such thing as "good data".  There's only bias.
                 Once you have determined your bias, then you pick the data
                 to support your bias, and you form your conclusion based
                 on your data.
                 \_ There is good data.  Because of good data, bridges stay
                    up, airplanes fly, and the Internet doesn't grind to a
                    halt.  Nature is not forgiving to bias.  You should
                    maybe read up on this invention called
                    'empirical science.'  (Yes, my sarcasm detector is in
                    the shop). -- ilyas
                 \_ There is good data and there is bad data.  The data in the
                    seminal paper "Electron-Band Structure in Germanium, My
                    Ass" was bad data.
                    \_ And there is even worse than bad data, which is
                       cooked data. At least the E-BSiGMA paper accurately
                       plotted what he observed.
                       \_ I prefer my cooked data with gravy made from the
                          blood of the working man.
                          \_ Mm, one of my favorite recipes from "To Serve
                             Man."
2004/9/29-30 [Consumer/Camera] UID:33836 Activity:kinda low
9/29    Dear MOTD photographers, I heard that when I shoot color negatives, I
        need to overexpose it by one stop in order to get the best result.  For
        example, I should set my camera to ISO 100 when I use a roll of ISO 200
        film.  What's the reason behind it?  Thanks.
        \_ Nonsense. Now a days color negatives are pretty good that this
           technique is irrelevant. If you do so, you have to tell the lab
           about this. Too much hassle. If you want to do this, then you must
           be a pro and knows exactly what you are doing. If not, then you
           shouldn't bother with it.
           \_ Thanks.  What was the reason to do this in the old days then?
        \_ That's just silly. Modern film and developing process allows
           for a bit of light metering error, usually at least 1 full stop
           of error up and down. Most labs just leave the machine set to
           auto correct both color saturation and exposure. If you ever
           want EXACTLY whats on the film, you have to specifically tell
           them when you drop off the film "do not autocorrect ANYTHING.
           I want exactly what's on the negative." Following that guys advice
           will end up hurting you in the long run. Actually, setting your
           camera to 100 when you are using 200 will make your shooting a bit
           of a bitch since your shutter time will almost always be longer
           than it actually needs to be.
           \- Yeah, this is one of those "if you have to ask, go with
              the defaults". There are defeinitely times when you are
              better off erring on the side of underexposing [if the
              metering is complicated and for one reason or another
              you are not bracketing]. Like if you are shooting in
              snowy or glaciers ...  over exposing washing out details
              in a fashion where you cant recover. If underexp, you
              may be able to recover some detail.  ok tnx. --psb
2004/9/29-30 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:33837 Activity:very high
9/29    What do you guys think about Turkey joining the EU?
        \_ Not yet.  It's only recently that their main islamist groups have
           come around to the idea that beating women and imposing shariya
           may not be the best road to prosperity.  They're getting there,
           making friends with Greece and starting to be reasonable about
           Cyprus and the Kurds.  Give them some time, start building ties.
           Turks are pretty nice & civilized people in general, and I'd like
           to see them join "Europe", but I would like to see some more
           movement towards what is (not in religious terms) Europe's
           judeo-christian cultural and economic identity. -John
        \_ I think it's an EU problem and has little to do with us.  At best
           it is another back door for the US into controlling the EU.  At
           worst, it'll drag Europe down that much faster and there'll be a
           huge mess in Europe as it goes down in flames.  It already won't
           be Eurpean by the end of the century at current birth and
           immigration rates/trends.  I wonder if this is the first time
           in history that an entire people, or in this multiple people with
           a similar/tied culture, have allowed themselves to become extinct.
           \_ Ah. So "European" is short-hand for "white", then?
              \_ Ah.  I someone would scream "RACIST!" instead of appyling
                 their brain.  Europe has a unique culture which a flood of
                 people from other countries who are not being integrated
                 into society will overwhelm and destroy.  I didn't say
                 "white" or even hint at it.  Don't strawman me.
                 \_ Again, how is Turkey more of a problem than the former
                    Soviet Bloc countries?
                    \_ Some of the former Soviet slave states are European
                       cultured and only differ in that their economies are
                       still recovering from communism as their legal systems
                       come up to speed.  Turkey is a completely different
                       culture.  What sort of answer other than the obvious
                       were you expecting?
                       \_ Actually, the ones that just joined EU like the
                          Baltic states, blend pretty well with the rest
                          of Europe culturally.
                          \_ That's what he said isn't it?
        \_ Why not, they joined NATO.
        \_ It's a hard question.  On the one hand, Turkey is one of the few
           Muslim countries actually making progress into the modern world,
           and it's not a bad place.  I'd like to give them all the
           opportunities possible.  On the other hand, Turkish immirants
           into Europe have become a serious pain in the butt.
           \_ More so than Eastern European immigrants?  Turkey is in better
              shape than, say, Albania or Macedonia, and slightly less corrupt
              than Russia.
              \_ Thank Allah. What Europe needs is more red-headed hookers.
              \_ I couldn't tell you about eastern europeans.  I'm pretty
                 sure gangs of them aren't taking over Swedish cities
                 though.
                   \_ Nobody's taking anything over.  Arabs, Eastern
                      Europeans (lots of Russian, Polish and ex-Yugoslav),
                      Turks and some Central Asians and Africans control a lot
                      of the crime in European cities (from small time shit
                      to organized prostitution and drug smuggling.)  Sweden,
                      France, Germany and the UK, among many, are just
                      starting to realize that the great social experiment,
                      and treating everyone with kid gloves, is not conducive
                      to having a civil society when you're dealing with
                      thugs.  Not all non-Europeans are thugs, just a lot of
                      the illegal immigrants.  So:  should "Western" countries
                      stop immigration from places where people look funny?
                      No.  Should they consistently hold everyone to certain
                      minimal standards of behavior?  Definitely.  Also note
                      that the article talks about "Arabs".
                      Searching for 'turk' yields 0 results.  -John
                 http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2004/09/003131print.html
                 \_ http://jihadwatch.org/spencer ???
                    Can you give me a good reason why I would want to listen
                    to a source as provocative as this?
                    \_ Well, if you're good at Swedish you could read the
                       articles he links to yourself.  Bork! Bork! Bork!
                       \_ From the BBC's description of Aftonbladet:
                          "The biggest-selling paper not only in Sweden but
                           across the Nordic region, the Stockholm-based
                           tabloid Aftonbladet is one of only two truly
                           national titles. Described as an evening paper,
                           Aftonbladet appears on news stands in Stockholm at
                           around 0830 and follows the classic tabloid format,
                           with plenty of celebrity news, sport, sex and
                           crime. Part-owned by the Swedish trade unions,
                           Aftonbladet is described as "independent social
                           democrat".
                          In other words, it's the NY Post or Sun Daily of
                          Scandinavia.  Nope, no sensationalism here.
                    \_ I can't tell if you are joking or not.  Is there
                       something wrong with this guy that I am not seeing?
                         -- ilyas
                       \_ This gentleman has a particular, and might I add,
                          extreme, point of view which he purports to support
                          by quoting other extremist points of view.  He then
                          defends his position by suggesting that the point of
                          his exercise is merely to inform people about the
                          extreme points of view.  The implication, however, is
                          that the extremist POVs he reveals are in fact the
                          driving forces of an entire culture (which he lamely
                          tries to deny he's implying by saying "I am not doing
                          this" while he continues to do it with the other
                          hand).  My point is that while it is good to know
                          that there are extremists out there, this fellow, in
                          trying to address the so-called soft press that has,
                          according to him, ignored the extremists, goes over-
                          board in his characterizations.  This does not help
                          the debate.
                          \_ I don't understand what you are trying to say.
                             What is his extreme point of view?  That militant
                             jihadists are bad?  That's not extreme at all.
                             I think this guy's only fault is not being
                             'diplomatic' with his language.  Can you show me
                             in particular in what way he is going overboard?
                               -- ilyas
                             \_ Did you read the sidebar on "Why Dhimmi Watch"
                                on the main page of this site?
                                "Spearheaded by dhimmi academics and self-
                                 serving advocacy groups, that same attitude
                                 of chastened subservience has entered into
                                 Western academic study of Islam, and from
                                 there into journalism, school textbooks, and
                                 the popular discourse."
                                Apparently, anyone who doesn't view Islam with
                                deep fear and suspicion is a dhimmi tool of the
                                Islamic overlords.
                                \_ Given some things stated in the Qu'ran, I
                                   think the burden of proof is on Islam, not
                                   on the West.  -- ilyas
                                \_ Maybe they are?  Ever think of that?
                                   \_ Sure.  About the same time I thought that
                                      Adam Weishaupt and the Bavarian
                                      Illuminati wanted to corrupt my precious
                                      bodily fluids.
                                      \_ Oops!  You got schooled by John!
                                      \_ I think Europe is far more seriously
                                         affected by muslim immigration than
                                         the US, and there _are_ a lot of very
                                         warped apologists for islamist b.s.
                                         here who play either the racism or
                                         the "you're a paranoid kook" card if
                                         anyone disagrees with them.  Why are
                                         you doing the same?  It's a serious
                                         problem.  Look up 'Finsbury park
                                         mosque' for starters.  -John
                              \_ What I would call extreme is a French girl
                                 raped by 80 muslim men.... Don't hear
                                 much about that do you?
                                 \_ Lots of that in the European adult
                                    comic books.  Seems like that's what
                                    the Europeans fantasize about.
                                    \_ Hi!  Why are you still taking up
                                       our oxygen, twit?
                                    \_ You stupid fuck.  There is an
                                       ongoing case in France where this
                                       happened.
        \_ Who is want to come TURKEY  I can invitate
           http://www.ikissyou.org/indeks2.html
        \_ I don't think it makes any sense for Europe. It helps Turkey of
           course, and certain business interests, and would help long term
           political stability and so forth. But Turkey IMO is still has too
           many problems and culturally doesn't seem ready for it. Even if some
           eastern European countries like Romania may have a lot of problems,
           they are already "there" from a cultural standpoint. It looks like
           it will happen sooner or later anyway though.
2004/9/29-30 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33838 Activity:kinda low
9/29    To the guy who said http://www.electoral-vote.com was biased, why were you
        suggesting that he was biased in favor of Bush?  He says he's a Kerry
        supporter:
        http://www.electoral-vote.com/info/welcome.html
        "I am a Kerry supporter. I am open about that. Despite my political
        preference, I have bent over backwards to be scrupulously honest about
        all the numbers, and have carefully designed the main page to be
        strictly nonpartisan."
        \_ Yeah, I implied that, but I was just repeating what I had
           read elsewewhere, that he was "biased." It is pretty amusing
           that the Kerry biased site has Kerry with fewer EVs than the
           Bush biased site.
           that the Kerry biased site had Kerry with fewer EVs than the
           Bush biased site yesterday. (electionprojection.com)
           No matter what he says though, those trend lines are a joke.
           Do you take those trend lines seriously?
           \_ I forgot to cull out the states that had only a few data points.
              But the trend lines looked reasonable to me in the states with a
              decent number of points.
           \_ Had a conversation with two construction workers at a coffee shop
              in Oakland today.  Gist: both candidates are scumbags; Kerry's
              a tax-and-spend Dem; Bush is a deficit spender; Ted Nugent would
              make a fine president.
              \_ Arnold! I used to scoff at Arnie's chances but I'm coming to
                 see that if legally enabled he might actually do it.
                 \_ You do realize that the barriers to Constitutional
                    Amendments are so high that this has almost no
                    chance of happening, right?
2004/9/29-30 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:33839 Activity:nil
9/29    MySQL question:  If I create a table where one column is an ENUM such
        as ENUM('a','b','c') can I later expand the enumerated values to say
        add 'd' to the possibilities, or do I have to rebuild the whole table?
        \_ Not really (although I think this makes MySQL silently rebuilt
           the table anyway):
             ALTER TABLE foo CHANGE bar bar ENUM ('a','b','c','d');
           -geordan
           \_ Slightly shorter:
              ALTER TABLE foo MODIFY bar ENUM ('a','b','c','d');
              --dbushong
2004/9/29-30 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:33840 Activity:high
9/29    Is there a way to configure the cmd line ftp program to default
        to the fucking binary transfer mode? is this a server setting?
        this is linux and windows ftp client... thanks.
        \_ which Windows FTP client? Most that I worked on can be preset to
           bin. (ws_ftp, cuteftp, etc.)?
           \_ Why are you still using FTP?  try http or ssh/scp
                \_ This is probably not OP's reason, but a lot of embedded
                   devices (like the analysis machines the people I'm dealing
                   with now) only permit FTP (for example).  -John
                   with now) only permit FTP (for example).  Use fetch for
                   good cmdline ftp'ing though.  -John
              \-wget will take a ftp url. i dont know wnaythign about windows.
                     --psb
2004/9/29-30 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:33841 Activity:nil
9/29    How do I use perl to delete some registry setting? such as
        HKCR\Something. I want to automatically nuke the entry...
        Thanks...
        \_ From the 1st google result for 'perl registry'
           http://jenda.krynicky.cz/perl/Registry.pm.html
           Load the Win32:Registry module and go from there...
2004/9/29-30 [Industry/Startup, Computer/Rants] UID:33842 Activity:very high
9/29    A while ago someone posted this tech support company (URL) in
        India that only charges like $8 a day. Can someone please post
        that again? ok thx
        \_ Get what you pay for.
          \_ tell that to the management. It's like the Atkins diet. Everyone
             knows that it's good for something and bad for another, but
             no one's listening because IT WORKS. And stop deleting this
             because you're just wasting time.
                \_ It doesn't "just work".  You get people who won't wipe
                   their ass without a work order in triplicate.  All the
                   outsourcing I've seen (a lot among my clients) has been
                   good for defined work blocks, but useless and shit for
                   anything requiring innovative thinking, sorry.  Management
                   sees this as well too, if they're not cretins (not all of
                   them are, surprise surprise.)  -John
        \_ http://www.supportempire.com remote tech support for only
           $2.30 per hour. That's 10X cheaper than US workers.
           \_ cheaper per-hour maybe.  But are they as good?  Because if you
             waste 10x as long fixing a problem with them, not only are you
             now just breaking even, you also lsoe big time on your own
             staffing costs in time dealing with them.
             \_ No.  Missing the point.  If they can't help a customer they
                are pissing off the customer who will then never buy your
                product, tell their 10 friends to never buy your product and
                some of them will put up a website such as
                <DEAD>www.your-company-name-sucks.com<DEAD> which will convice hundreds of
                others not to buy your product, but at least you saved a few
                bucks in support.  And since product sales will drop like a
                rock, support costs will go down, too.  Nice how that works.
                \_ Yes, it's stupid.  Companies doing silly things to
                   satisfy bean counters is hardly new.  Look at IBM.  They
                   do this ALL THE TIME.  It just happens that they're big
                   enough that a different sector's profits can make up for
                   incrediably stupid moves in this sector.  Most companies
                   just die.
                   \_ It's not to satisfy bean counters.  Most managers who
                      do this kind of thing are not around for long enough to
                      suffer the consequences.  "Save" money in the short
                      term, get a nice big bonus, and get headhunted to
                      another company.  -John
            \_ Few people here wants to do tech support work.  It's a good
               idea to outsource it.  Tech support here are sometimes
               horrendous, other times exemplary.  It's not like it's all
               good here.
               \_ A *lot* of Americans want to do tech support but they can't
                  live on $2.30/hour.  Good or bad, at least they speak
                  English.
                  \_ Sure they can. Put them up in barracks and feed them
                     prison food. Show them free movies at night. Pretty
                     soon that is what a "job" will look like in America.
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:September:29 Wednesday <Tuesday, Thursday>