Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:September:05 Sunday <Saturday, Monday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/9/5 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Immigration, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33356 Activity:nil
9/4     A sagging economy, endless violence in Iraq, record high oil prices,
                                                     \- not "record high" [yet]
                                                        oil prices were higher
                                                        in early 80s. --psb
        a bad employment picture, an uncertain future, and everybody in the
        world hates us, yet the Democrats are now BEHIND in the polls? WTF?
        What the hell happened? How can the Dems lose both in 2000 and now
        it looks like 2004? Are you guys cursed?
        \_ Perhaps a belief that, as bad as things are, the Democrats
           would have made an even greater mess, and better days are ahead.
        \_ 3% GDP growth and 5.4 % unemployment is a sagging economy?Contrast
           that with Carter's double digit inflation, interest rates, and
           unemployment.  Oil prices will be ~30-35$ per barrel by November.
           Also, maybe this has something to do with it:
           Boy who begged for water was bayoneted
2004/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33357 Activity:low
9/4     Cheerleaders For Truth:
        \_ I've been wondering about all these [frivolous group]fortruth
           groups.  What does the intended audience of the original propaganda
           (Vietnam vets specifically and other vets in general) think about
           them?  Do they come to the conclusion that the swift boat veterans
           are just as silly as [frivolous group], or do they think it's just
           more liberal mocking of veterans?  Would they just get more pissed
           off at Kerry because of his allies' implied belittling comparison
           between swift boat veterans and [frivolous group]?
2004/9/5 [Uncategorized] UID:33358 Activity:nil
9/5     Charles Jay for president!
        Maralyn Chambers for VP!
2004/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:33359 Activity:moderate
9/5     U.S. Official Says Close to Catching Bin Laden:
        Hey, Boondocks called this moooonths ago.
        \_ I'll predict that he will not be captured before the election.  And
           I'd be grateful if morons would stop informing the press that "we're
           close to" something.  I'm reading the 9/11 commission report, and a
           (pre-9/11) leak to the press at one point caused Bin Laden to change
           his communications and made him much harder to track.
           \_ I agree with you on the general concept but simply saying "we're
              close" for the *th time isn't a big deal.  Been saying that for
              3 years now about every 6 weeks.
           \_ I am also in the middle of reading it(I'm not the dude above.)
              It's worth remembering that if Pakistan hadn't fucked us,
              Bin Laden would've been killed pre-9/11.  I agree with you
              about leaks, but I would also say that the fact that no
              one in the Pakistani gov't is in the loop is neither bad
              nor suprising.
              \_ The report makes it pretty clear that unless the intelligence
                 had been 100% with zero chance of collateral damage, no one
                 would have taken the necessary action to kill OBL before 9/11.
                 But yes, Pakistan was pretty clearly feeding info to OBL.
                 \_ cut and pasted directly from chapter 4 of the 9/11 report:
                    "Later on August 20[1998], Navy vessels in the Arabian Sea
                     fired their cruise missiles.
                     Though most of them hit their intended targets, neither
                     Bin Ladin nor any other terrorist leader was killed.
                     Berger told us that an after-action review by Director
                     Tenet concluded that the strikes had killed 20-30
                     people in the camps but probably missed Bin Ladin by a
                     few hours.Since the missiles headed for Afghanistan had
                     had to cross Pakistan, the Vice Chairman of the Joint
                     Chiefs was sent to meet with Pakistan's army chief of
                     staff to assure him the missiles were not coming from
                     India. Officials in Washington speculated that one or
                     another Pakistani official might have sent a warning to
                     the Taliban or Bin Ladin."
                     \_ That was right after the embassy bombings, when there
                        was a brief flare-up of will.  From p.140: "It was in
                        Kandahar that perhaps the last, and most likely the
                        best, opportunity arose for targeting Bin Ladin with
                        cruise missiles before 9/11. In May 1999, CIA assets in
                        Afghanistan reported on Bin Ladin.s location in and
                        around Kandahar over the course of five days and
                        nights.The reporting was very detailed and came from
                        several sources. If this intelligence was not
                        .actionable,.  working-level officials said at the time
                        and today, it was hard for them to imagine how any
                        intelligence on Bin Ladin in Afghanistan would meet the
                        standard.  Communications were good, and the cruise
                        missiles were ready..This was in our strike zone,. a
                        senior military officer said.  .It was a fat pitch, a
                        home run.. He expected the missiles to fly.When the
                        decision came back that they should stand down, not
                        shoot, the officer said,.we all just slumped.. He told
                        us he knew of no one at the Pentagon or the CIA who
                        thought it was a bad gamble. Bin Ladin .should have
                        been a dead man. that night, he said."
                        \_ The problem with all this is not that it isn't true,
                           I believe it is and I'm both pissed off any highly
                           disappointed in both the GWB and Clinton admins for
                           not nabbing him years ago, it is that by the time
                           they could've hit him in Afghanistan, 9/11 was fated
                           to be.  Killing bin Laden would not have stopped
                           that mission at that point.  Had he been nabbed in
                           the 90s, then yes, probably, but not guaranteed then
                           either.  The real tragedy is that it took 9/11 to
                           understand we were at war.  We'd been attacked
                           dozens of times yet no one (very few) in the West
                           understood or believed.  Most of Western Europe
                           still doesn't get it.  I think the Brits get it,
                           kind of, after the Northern Ireland thing.  The
                           French and Germans and Spanish do not get it at all.
                           The Russians might have just figured it out.  Maybe.
                           The rest are hopeless.
                         \_ UBL! UBL! UBL is the STANDARD! Abbreviation.
2004/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33360 Activity:nil
9/5     sfgate at spin control.
        "While som early polls show that Bush may have gained from the
        convention..."  Or "Early polls...showed Bush getting as much as an
        8-point bounce.  A Washington Post/ABC News poll...with Bush just
        barely ahead of Kerry 48 to 47 percent" and no more mention of the
        big bounce.  Well done!
2004/9/5-6 [Science] UID:33361 Activity:high
9/4     Open ended question for you military guys. If the British SA agents
        or the American Delta Force/Special Forces were involved in the
        now Russian debacle, would it have helped the situation, given that
        the special forces had better tactics, technology, and experience
        in hostage situations than say, the Russian army? I mean, we've had
        technology like Counter Strike to train kids as early as say, 5
        for heaven's sake.
        \_ Answer:  you can't know.  If you check the chest tags of some
           of the Russians involved, you'll note "Spetsnaz", which are highly
           trained for counterterrorism.  The only antiterrorist operations
           I can think of that went flawlessly are GSG9 storming an airliner
           in Mogadishu, and the 1984 London Libyan embassy siege, along
           with some major cockups in many countries.  -John
                \_ HEIL John! Der Spezielle Kraft Deutch Agent! HEIL!!!
        \_ HAHAHAHA CS train kids?!?! CS teaches nothing about how to hold
           the weapon, proper breath control, or even how to clean the
           weapon (yes, that is very important). Also, look at the #s of
           hostages, size of the buildings, and you can see why the Russians
           sent more than one. Most SF/SWAT units do not operate in such
           large numbers. In any case, 8 KIA of FSB's elite Alfa. . BTW GSG9
           can no longer operate outside of Germany, KSK has taken overn.
           You forgot OPeration Jonathan in Entebbe, only 1 KIA operator.
           By Israeli Sayaret Matkal : alums include Benjamin Netanyahu (his
           bro was the KIA in Entebbe), Ehud Barak and Danny Lewin (who died
           in 9-11, co-founder,CTO of Akamai.
2004/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33362 Activity:kinda low 70%like:33370
9/5     More swift boat war crimes... almost.
        porpsuk:annoyance (from bugmenot)
        \_ Nearly everyone in Vietnam committed war crimes and atrocites,
           including Kerry, and it was only afterwards (in his words) that he
           came to understand that raping and slaughtering civilians was
           against the law.  He never said he had any personal moral problem
           with it.  Only that it was afterwards he came to understand what he
           did was illegal.  I assume that means if it wasn't illegal, he'd be
           a-ok with it.
2004/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:33363 Activity:very high
9/5     They Knifed Babies, They Raped Girls
        It should be pointed out that Beslan is a small Christian
        enclave among a Muslim population.
        \_ And the Russians raped and killed Chechens, a small Muslim enclave
           ruled by a Christian population. Right?
           \_ No, the Russians didn't rape anyone.  Killing is what happens in
              \_ Well, the Russians have never been famous for their
              |  kinder, gentler military.  (Well, unlesss you're
              |  comparing to the imperialist Japanese)  But they probably
              |  weren't so systematic about it.
       Sigh. Do I really have to dig up links?,6903,820261,00.html
       Russian rapes are widely reported, although often without direct proof,
       but do we have direct proof of this "They Raped Girls" allegation?
           \_ I don't ever recall the Russians taking a school and shooting 200
              children in the back, do you?
              \_ Maybe, but they blew up entire villages and so forth. Why
                 split hairs? Fact is the Russians have no justification for
                 being there. It's left over from old Russian imperialism.
                 If the Russians wipe out a village it's fine, but some
                 terrorists take over a school it's unthinkable brutality.
              \_ Look, no one disputes that what the hostage-takers did at the
                 school was dispicable. I think what the pp is trying to point
                 out, though, is that they didn't do it just because they were
                 bored and felt like being evil. To prevent this sort of thing
                 from happening again, you need to understand why it
                 happened in the first place. If you adopt the "all Muslims
                 are evil" posture of these freeper idiots, then there is no
                 \_ It happened because some people *are* evil.  This was it.
                    No one said all muslims are evil.  To prevent this sort of
                    thing from happening again, you need to understand that
                    some people *are* evil, they mut be found, they must be
                    killed before they commit more acts of evil.  You're
                    strawmanning with the all muslims are evil line.
                    \_ "If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously
                       committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to
                       separate them from the rest of us and destroy them.
                       But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the
                       heart of every human being.  And who is willing to
                       destroy a piece of his own heart?"
                       - Alexander Solzhenitsyn
                    \_ Hey, I hear ya. There are people who
                       are just born evil, and there's nothing you
                       can do about it. But I don't think comparing
                       these guys to Son-of-Sam/Zodiac Killer
                       types is entirely correct. Some people are
                       born evil, some people aspire to evilness,
                       and some people have evilness thrust
                       upon them. In which group are these guys?
                       As for "all Muslims are evil", did you read
                       the entire text of the link you posted?:
                       "And to anyone who is appalled at the
                        prospect of killing "innocent" Chechens,
                        these scum didn't grow up in a vacuum.
                        They were raised to be fiends by other
                        fiends. It's us or them."
                       "If the muslims will not police
                        their own, make Mecca Melt."
                       If you want, I can pull even more
                       egregious examples out the
                       freeper bunghole.
                       \_ Woah!  You mean people sometimes post stupid
                          crap on Internet message boards?  No Way!
                          \_ Dude, don't be fatuous. You posted a freeper
                             link, and I made a comment on the content of
                             that link. You then accused me ok creating a
                             strawman argument, and I then posted evidence
                             that I was responding to statements in the
                             link you posted, and now I am somehow to blame
                             for you posting a dumb-ass freeper link? Sheesh.
                             \_ A) I'm not the same guy.  B) Perhaps he
                                was trying to link to the article, not
                                to what a bunch of freepers SAID about the
                                \_ watch how easy it is to link to the
                                   article without linking to freeper
                                   that took me all of about 10 seconds.
        \_ It is not surprising that this attack happened in Beslan and
           not elsewhere. There have been always attacks on Ossetia throughout
           90s and 2000s but most didn't seem to be worthy of coverage to the
           western media (those were mostly explosions on the markers, etc).
           It is quite possible that this time the terrorists were intending to
           instigate ethnic strife in all of Northern Caucasus. Many Ossets
           are already talking about revenge on the Chechen and Ingush peoples
           living in their republic. Beslan is the third largest city of the
           autonomous republic of Northern Ossetia.  Here are some facts that
           put Ossets at odds with the Chechens:
           1. Ossets are predominantly Christian (although there is a small
              muslim minority among Ossets, mostly living around the
              town called Digora).
           2. Ossets are probably the most pro-Russian people on the Northern
              Caucasus. While they are very proud of their Ossetic identity,
              they are also very proud to have been part of USSR and now
              Russia.  (BTW, they are also very proud of the well-known fact
              that Stalin's true father was an Ossetian from South Ossetian
              part of Georgia). In addition Russians seem to favor Ossets in
              their territorial conflicts with the neighboring Ingushetia and
           3. In the early 90s, Ossets have been involved in a short lived
              but very violent territorial conflict with the neighboring
              republic of Ingushetia. Ingush were demanding the return of the
              territories that were taken away from them by Stalin after WW2
              for sympathizing with Germans. During the conflict Ossets
              succeeded in ethnically cleansing their territories from the
              Ingush who have moved in after they were rehabilitated after
              Stalin's death. Nothing has been done to solve this conflict
              since then and both sides consider themselves as victims. It is
              important to note that the Ingush are ethnically very closely
              related to Chechens. (they have similar languages, customs, etc)
              \_ short recent article on the ossentians in The Exile
        - danh
              \_ Thanks, that was among the most informative posts I've
                 read on the MOTD.  Like information I would expect to
                 find on, gasp,
                 \_ The signal to noise ratio is much higher in places
                    like the Journal of Foreign Affairs.
2004/9/5-6 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33364 Activity:high
9/5     Four more wars!
        \_ What font is that, and why do liberals seem to like it?
        \_ This is depressing.
           \_ Yeah, I can't believe this hack has any readers.
              \_ "I disagree with someone, therefore they must be a hack"
              \_ Yeah, that too.
                \_ why do you keep replying to yourself?  - danh
                   \_ Uhm, there's at least 3 participants in this thread.
                      You're not as clever as you think you are.
2004/9/5-6 [Uncategorized] UID:33365 Activity:moderate
9/5     When I first saw Nausica of the Valley of Wind, Princess Mononoke,
        and Spirited Away, I thought they sucked. But yesterday I had 6 beers
        and watched all three and thought they're the best. So I guess
        Miyazaki's films are like baseball-- you gotta have a few beers before
        you appreciate it.
        \_ Perhaps the problem lies with you, rather than Miyazaki
           \_ No, I'm pretty sure it's Miyazaki. -not op
              \_ Ah, well.  To each their own.  -second poster
        \_ Nausica sucked and was depressing.  Mononoke was ok.  Castle in
           the Sky was good.  Spirited Away was the best.
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:September:05 Sunday <Saturday, Monday>