Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:August:20 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/8/20 [Uncategorized] UID:33031 Activity:nil
8/20 addictive game.
2004/8/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33032 Activity:high
8/20    I didn't delete the Vietnam thread, I was going to reply to the
        guy who likes calling Kerry a traitor.  Anyway, you tried to refute
        my argument by saying Kerry was responsible for Vietnamese deaths
        by his anti-war actions.  This is quite a stretch.  By this measure,
        every anti-war protestor is responsible for Vietnamese and American
        deaths by protesting the war -- in your view, they are only responsible
        by different amounts.
        Kerry was a symbol of the anti-war movement to some vets, and Kerry
        strengthened the movement by being an ex-soldier, and eloquent.  These
        vets feel that the anti-war movement left them as soldiers without a
        purpose -- unwanted at home, wanted dead in Vietnam, with no end in
        sight.  They incorrectly believe Kerry labels all U.S. soldiers as war
        criminals, when instead, Kerry said to the Senata in 1971:  "We are
        angry because we feel we have been used it the worst fashion by the
        administration of this country."  To these veterans, Kerry was a traitor
        to his fellow soldier.  However, they shouldn't be blaming Kerry for
        being right.
        \_ Your understanding of the history of the war is wrong.
           Read the article below for a concise explanation of what I
           have been saying.  It's important to emphasize Kerry was
           not a civilian during his activities, he was on active duty.
           \_ Actually, why don't you offer a concise explanation of what
              you are trying to say.  You have the article right in front
              of you, and you know your point.
              \_ Your'e right, just read the last five paragraphs.
                 \_ Why don't you summarize it in one paragraph.  I did,
                    in two.
                    \_ Well I don't understand what you're saying.  Kerry
                       gave comfort to the enemy.  His propaganda was
                       repeated to John McCain in the Hanoi Hilton.  One
                       question, would it bother you if Michael Moore
                       negotiated truce terms with Al Sadr or Bin Laden?
                       \_ Don't you understand?  By your definition,
                          all anti-war protestors, by calling the war
                          immoral, wrong, or just not worth it, are giving
                          "comfort to the enemy"?  Your view, is that
                          Kerry just did it more than the typical anti-war
                          About bin Laden:  Don't you recall my previous
                          post?  This is not WW2, where Japan preemptively
                          attacked Pearl Harbor; this is Vietnam, where
                          the U.S. carpet-bombed, 4 million Vietnamese
                          civilians died to 1 million enemy soldiers, and
                          we were wrong in the Tonkin incident.
                          \_ Upwards of 3 million died in Korea - good or
                             \_ Are you able to formulate a coherent response?
                                \_ The implication is obvious.  You cite
                                   4 million deaths to impugn the character
                                   of the war.  So I repeat, 3 million died
                                   in Korea, do you see this as good as
                                   bad through your Red colored glasses?
                                   I have no problem with protesters, nor
                                   would I elect a member of their
                                   leadership to CIC.  Are you aware of
                                   all of Kerry's antiwar activities - from
                                   the sounds of it I don't think you are.
                                   \_ Fallacy of equation.  While I think the
                                      Vietnam war was fought "wrong", but on
                                      some good premises, the Korean war had
                                      UN legitimization.  I think your debate
                                      partner's argument that "war is always
                                      bad because people die" is wrong.  But
                                      he is correct to say that a democratic
                                      society should not equate opposition to
                                      said war with treason.  -John
                                      \_ Fair enough, familiarize yourself
                                         with Kerry's post war, FBI
                                         documented activities; then you
                                         decide.  To me, (1) penning an
                                         anti-war, hate america scribe with
                                         a cover that mocks Iwo Jima with an
                                         upside down US flag, and (2)attending
                                         a meeting where assissinating
                                         US senators is discussed, and
                                         continuing to associate yourself
                                         with that group, crosses the line.
                                         Maybe one allows that kind of behavior
                                         but you sure as hell don't
                                         condone it by electing the person
                                         as CIC.
                                         \_ I have zero interest in whether
                                            John Kerry should be pres or not.
                                            I was simply pointing out the flaw
                                            in the above argument.  As for
                                            "fit to be CIC", that is not for
                                            you or me alone to decide, but the
                                            electorate.  The limiting factors
                                            for Presidents are laid out very
                                            clearly in the Constitution. -John
       \_ And as for 'these' soldiers he consorted with, you do realize
           a large percentage or majority of them were later proven
           to be frauds, e.g. Al Hubbard?  Kerry purjured himself
           in front of Congress for political gain - this is not a
           problem for you?
           \_ You do realize that there were hundreds of wartime violoations
              officially prosecuted by the miliary?
              Perjury also means you are aware of falsehood when you testify.
              You have not shown this at all.
              \_ Well we have different perceptions of what took place.
                 Every thing I have read says yes they took place, but not on
                 the scale you believe, and they were prosecuted.  However,
                 Kerry himself admitted to committing the atrocities.
                 Furthermore, its a warzone, atrocities happen.  You haven't
                 heard stories about the Korean war and WWII?  That doesn't
                 justify invoking the atrocities to demoralize our war
                 effort.  After all the Vietnan War was won, the South was
                 free for two years. Did Kerry violate UMCJ and US statutes and
                 Constitutional provisions on treason or not?  I think he did,
                 and someone of that character does not belong as CIC.
                 \_ By your reasoning, newspapers shouldn't be publishing
                    the Abu Ghraib abuse photos, as it demoralizes our war
                    effort.  If Kerry clearly violated provisions on treason,
                    he would have been prosecuted for it, but he wasn't.
                    \_ I am asking one question.  Did he or did he not
                       violate the statutes cited in the article?  Gen.
                       Giap seems to indicate he did.  He purjured himself
                       in front of Congress.
                       \_ I ask you one question.  Did Vietnam anti-war
                          protestors violate the "give comfort to the enemy"
                          clause in the Constitution?
                          As for being against the war while you are serving,
                          we have a modern example of that.  There is a
                          military intelligence analyst who wrote a letter to
                          a local newspaper criticizing the war.  Someone
                          forwarded this letter to the military.  The guy
                          was discharged.  That's the punishment you get,
                          typically.  Even this didn't happen with Kerry, and
                          your bringing it up now and associating it with
                          treason is quite a stretch.
                          \_ I think it is.  Court martial proceeding were
                             already underway, Congress knew about it months
                             in advance.  I sure as hell would not elect the guy
                 \_ Read about Operation Pheonix. The US assassinated literally
                    thousands of civilians.
                    \_ Honestly, what would be point of sending highly trained
                       special-ops and snipers to kill civlians.  You can't
                       be serious.
                       \_ Have you read about Operation Pheonix? The CIA
                          recently declassified the project, it is no longer
                          a matter of conjecture, but historical record.
                          We assassinated any political leader that we thought
                          might by sympathetic to the North Vietnamese cause.
                          As for the likelyhood of a highly trained US military
                          sniper being used to kill civilians in a foreign
                          land, I knew a guy who had done this in Nicauragua
                          and was dealing with the psychological afteraffects.
                          He was kind of messed up about it.
                          \_ How is this relevant to Kerry?  Shit happens in
                             war.  Are you familiar with the NVA and Vietcong
                             techniques for population control?  Doesn't
                             it strike you as odd as you are now defending
                             the Communist side in this war,given the aftermath
                             of communist insurrections around the globe?
                             \_ Sure the other side was worse, far worse in
                                fact. I am not defending Communism, just the
                                historical record from those who wish to
                                rewrite it for political gain. If you don't
                                learn from your past, you are doomed to
                                make the same mistakes again and again.
                                \_ Vague platitude.  History emphatically
                                   vindicates the staunch anti-communists.
                                   Kerry does not fall into this category.
                                   \_ You are not doing yourself any favors
                                      with the phrase "history emphatically
                                      vindicates the staunch anti-communists"
                                      without further explanation, when
                                      history is replete with commentaries
                                      about how Vietnam was a quagmire, and
                                      the first war that the U.S. lost.
                                      \_ Vietnam was won.  How is that
                                         a quagmire?  If you want to
                                         believe this myth created and
                                         perpetuated by leftists, feel free.
                                         Please, list for me the major
                                         military battles lost in the war.
                                         \_ Vietnam was won? Which side are
                                            you on???
                                            \_ LOL what were the terms of
                                               the treaty of Paris in 1973?
                                               I really don't think you know
                                               what you are talking about.
                                               I think a free S. Vietnam
                                               (until 1975 anyways)
                                               is a victory, don't you?
                                               Or was Korea
                                               not a victory either?
                                                \_ The ToP was a good alibi
                                                   for us to disengage from
                                                   a badly conducted war,
                                                   fought for good reasons but
                                                   for a dodgy client.  It was
                                                   not a victory.  -John
                                                \_ It was a victory!  Until it
                                                   was a loss!
                                                   \_ Because anti-war
                                                      elements in Congress
                                                      rescinded all financial
                                                      and military support.
                             \_ I like how this guy twists your words into
                                "now defending the Communist side".  This
                                truly is a case of "if you're not with us,
                                you're against us", which is one of the
                                problems the vets have.
                             \_ I like how you say "shit happens in war", as
                                if we are a bunch of naive idiots who didn't
                                know this already.
                                \_ Then why trumpet up these ubsubstantiated
                                   charges of war crimes?
                \_ you were kind of coherent for the 1st 9000 pages,
                   but then you lost me completely.
        \_ Sorry for the long thread, but I believe the "Kerry was a traitor"
           guy honestly believes his position, as many conservatives do, and
           I was trying to "show him the way".
           \_ I ask a third time - Kerry purjured himself before Congress
              and violated several sections of US statute while on active
              duty.  Do you agree and is the behavior unbecoming a CIC?  Almost
              all Vietnam Vets say it is.
              \_ how about desertion--is that behavior unbecoming a CIC?
              \_ But Bush is a stupid monkey!  Don't you see!?  A stupid
                 monkey! -- aaron #1 fan
2004/8/20 [Uncategorized] UID:33033 Activity:nil
8/20    [Go away too obvious troll]
        \_ I don't think that was a troll.  In fact, I think he made some
           pretty reasonable points.  Why don't you let people judge for
           themselves.  -John
2004/8/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:33034 Activity:high
8/20    The Vietnam thread below is almost interesting except the
        participants are speaking past each other.  Anyway, what Kerry
        or Bush or anyone else did or didn't do in Vietnam really isn't
        important to me as a voter.  Bush went AWOL and Kerry faked his
        own records.  They're both losers and better off not relying on
        their 30+ year old stories there.  I want to hear what Kerry did
        for the country in 19 years as a Senator and Bush in his first
        term as President and detailed plans of what each intends to do
        in the next 4 years.  And really, as far as security of the country
        goes, ask yourself this one, "If foreigners could vote in our
        elections, who would Osama bin Laden, Castro, Chavez, Chirac, and
        other America haters vote for?"
        \_ An idiot who's demonstrated his willingness to financially and
           diplomatically ruin the US?
           \_ Hussein, too?
              \_ Hussein always wins 100% of the vote, so obviously he voted
                 for himself.
        \_ In SOVIET CUBA, politicians vote for YOU!
        \_ You ask too much. WDYHA?
        \_ I like how you try to claim both Bush and Kerry's Vietnam
           experiances are the same.  Ok, we all know about Bush and the AWOL
           accusations and how the documentation pretty well supports that.
           But Kerry lieing about his records?  Well let's see his is accused
           by a doctor who claims to have treated him on the front although
           there is NO documentation to support that.  The same docotor
           somehow remembers minor details about an insignificant wound someone
           recieived in a war zone 30 years ago.  Then there is the guy
           claming Kerry doesn't deserve his Bronze Star because there was
           no combat going on in the incident.  Well, let's look closer shall
           we?  That same accuser RECIEVED A BRONZE STAR FOR THE EXACT SAME
           INCIDENT.  Oh and the "who would america haters vote for" bit is
           classic.  Especially lumping bin Landen (now what ever happened
           to him anyway) with the rest.  And Castro?  Please, are you that
           stuck in the 60s?  Oh and why don't you care about domestic
           policies as well?
           \_ Sheesh, why do people keep saying the documentation supports
              that Bush was AWOL?  There's NO documentation to support
              that.  There's just a suspicion that some documents claimed
              missing really exist and haven't been released that might
              support that Bush was AWOL.
              \_ Documentation doesn't support that he went AWOL, but there's
                 scant documentation that he was where he was supposed to be.
                 That all documentation has not been found leads some (myself
                 included) to believe there's a coverup, but it is also
                 plausible that he did serve and the papers have been lost.
                 \_ And that's cool.  I don't mind if you have your
                    suspicious, heaven knows I have mine.  Just don't try
                    to upgrade your suspicions to fact in public debate
                    with out evidence.  Thank you.
                    \_ So if all the evidence supports Bush and is against
                    Kerry we still have a man who got out of going to
                    Vietnam versus a man who volunteered to go when he
                    could have avoided service.
        \_ I think its clear that terrorists fear Bush much more than
           probably anyone else. The problem is that so do many Americans.
           I hate to invoke Godwin's Law, but I'm sure Muslim terrorists were
           very afraid of Hitler, too. He was a dangerous man. Bush is
           likewise a dangerous man. He'll attack the terrorists, but what
           will he sacrifice in the process?
           \_ Have you read 'Inside an Al-Qaeda Hard Drive' in "The Atlantic"?
              It had emails from Osama in 2001 basically talking about how he
              wanted to get more publicity and that by attacking the US he
              hoped the US would end up in a quagmire which would result in
              more Muslims joining his cause and the US military too occupied
              to flex it's muscle in other parts of the world.  Kinda sounds
              like GWB gave him just what he wanted, doesn't it?
2004/8/20 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:33035 Activity:nil
8/20    Anyone know whether there is a way to get the taskbar icon that
        Mozilla under Windows can use to store a session cookie for
        authentication to websites (as opposed to keeping a minimized
        Mozilla window around, or having Mozilla store paswords)  -John
2004/8/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33036 Activity:high
8/20    Swift boat vets graphic showing relationship with Bush family / Rove:
        Five-page article which goes with it:
        To summarize:  How several of the swift boat vets went from praising
        John Kerry last year, to criticizing him this year, and how it
        probably happened.
        [Okay, I'm outta here.  Got to get some real work done today.]
        \_ I wonder how many Texas politicos of either party are not one or
           two degrees of separation from current administration.
           \_ OMG my brother knows Teresa Heinz and he donated money to the
              Republicans.  GWB is a democratic plant!!!  I plan to vote Nader
              and I'm 2 hops from Heinz!  Maybe Nader is just a big Democratic
              conspiracy too!
              \_ fuck off and die. Nader is getting lots of money *directly*
                 from one of the major parties, and you fucking know it.
                 ass-tool.  please please choke on a donut and die.
                 \_ Since my brother 1. knows Heinz and 2. donated money to
                    the Republicans, we can conclude that the whole Republican
                    party is really just a front for the Democrats.  That's
                    the same logic used in the graphic above.  Since the
                    Republicans are really a front for the Democrats, and
                    since the Republicans are funding Nader, that means Nader
                    is also a front for the Democratic party.  Same logic.
                    \_ You might be surprised, but Heinz was married to a
                       Republican senator. It is more likely that Kerry is
                       a front for the Republicans, especially since he is
                       a Skull and Bones guy like Dubya.
        Five-page article which goes with it:
        To summarize:  How several of the swift boat vets went from praising
        John Kerry last year, to criticizing him this year, and how it
        probably happened.
        [Okay, I'm outta here.  Got to get some real work done today.]
        \_ ok... who broke csuamotd/csuamotd.... and bugmenot is down too.
           \_ you want to know how much of a sociopathic shithead the guy
              who did this is?  I posted another login and password yesterday,
              and within an hour the password to that was changed also.
              of course, i have access to the yahoo account it's linked to
              so i changed it to something else and now i guess i won't
              post it until someone figures out who's doing this so we can
              go slash his fucking tires.
              \_ kchang did it! with the wrench! in the drawing room!
              \_ I'm just wondering what the passwd changing guy is trying
                 to accomplish.  All of us either have our own nyt accounts
                 or it's trivial to create one anyway, so changing the passwd
                 isn't stopping anyone from reading the site.  It helps nyt
                 with gathering user statistics, but that's the only thing
                 I can think of.
           \_ it was egoldstein
              \_ Am I missing something?  There's no such user.
                 \_ Saying things like that can get you sent to Minitrue.
        \_ Here's an excerpt about the "Truth" these guys are trying to sell
           people: "An enemy solider sprang from the shore about 10 feet in
           front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the shore, chased the
           soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40 rocket
           launcher with a round in the chamber.
           Swift Boat Veterans for Truth describes the man Mr. Kerry killed as
           a solitary wounded teenager "in a loincloth," who may or may not
           have been armed. ... ... The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the
           reports that led to the medal. But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who
           handled going up the line for recognition, have previously said that
            a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others
           and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts."
2004/8/20-21 [Consumer/Audio, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:33037 Activity:kinda low
8/20    Does anyone use an iRiver hard-drive based MP3 player?  Suck or rock?
        \_ if you don't get any responses, go to,,
 ,, in that order.  there are a lot of iRiver
        \_ Just read through iriver's forum(off the international website.)
           They may have a lot of features, but it's quite unpolished.
        \_ Yes.  I like my iHP-120. --jameslin
2004/8/20 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:33038 Activity:high
8/20    Would someone (root type person) make mail to motd world readable,
        or is it so somehow already?
        \_ Why?
           \_ Password registration.
              \_ mailinator.
                 \_ I want the password and updates to be soda accessible.
        \_ rcpt to:
           553 5.3.0 motd does not accept mail.
2004/8/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33039 Activity:very high
8/20    Interesting how Mr. Swiftie just keeps it up after this crap has been
        completely discredited.  If Kerry is elected, is this gonna be like
                   \_ You mean like "selected not elected"?
        Kenneth Starr/Whitewater all over again, with fake "pseudoscandals"
        kept alive by Republican money?
        \_ of course.  This isn't going to go away until the republican
           enemy is discredited at the national level once and for all.
        \_ So how long till they demand a perjury investigation about his 1986
           congressional testimony?  When that fails, will they demand he be
           put on trial for war crimes?
        \_ Unless we reform the worthless corrupt media, yes.
           \_ I think we need a new word to describe this process, like
              the "borking" of a judicial nominee.  "foo-gate" is tired and
              really refers to something else (the fallout from a scandal
              rather than the manufacturing of one).
              |_ Bushwhacking?  'Roved?  Kerried away?  O'riled up?
                 Kerrycter assassination?  Murderoched?  Thanks, I'm here all
                 \_ Can you play "Over There"?
                 \_ But the word should somehow refer to Clinton, since he
                    was the first big target.  Or perhaps McCain, Swift Boat
                    target Number Uno.
        \_ Link to refutation of allegations please.  Actually, do you even
           know what the allegations are?
           \_ Oh please.
              \_ I'll take that as a no.
                 \_ "You're arm's off!" "No it isn't!" "Well what's that then!"
                    <pause> "I've had worse!" "You liar!" "Come on, ya'
                 \_ You really really need to get a life.  Direct evidence
                    that the Swift Boat guys are lying isn't enough for you?
                    You probably think there's aliens stored at Area 51, too.
                    \_ What evidence?  You don't even understand the
                       allegations so how do you know?  There are ALOT of
                       holes in Kerry's and his bands stories, far more than
                       the Swift Vets.  Nor have the Vets changed their
                       story repeatedly.
                        \_ See, now you're just lying.  Even trolls try to
                           sound vaguely plausible.
                       \_ Sigh.  Go on with your bad self, Don Quixote.
                          Bill O'Reilly isn't even on your side anymore.
                          You're a nut.  Get a grip.
                          \_ Instead of working yourself up in a frenzy,
                             repeatedly, take a few minutes to
                             familiarize yourself with the allegations.
                             If vindicated, you would be
                             a much more effective detractor.
                  \_ OK, some of the reports describing Kerry's heroism are
                     signed K.J.W.  The SBVfT claim that these were written by
                     Kerry and are nothing but self-aggrandizing fabrication.
                     This ignores the fact that there is no 'W' in Kerry's name
                     and that reports of that type would have been written
                     higher up the chain of command.  This leaves 4
                     1) SBVfT are lying.
                     2) SBVfT are mistaken.
                     3) The mission reports corroborated by current SBVfT
                        members 35 years ago are in error and their own
                        reccolections now are the truth.
                     4) John Kerry is so devious he impersonated a superior
                        officer 35 years ago to write heroic mission reports.
            \_ Yeah, the allegations are that Kerry is secretly an America
               hating traitor that wants to take our guns, hand over American
               sovereignty to the UN and surrender to the French and the
               terrorists. Seriously, you guys have been slinging around the
               word "traitor" so much for anyone who disagrees with you in
               the slightest about anything, you have lost the ability to
               shock people with it. Give it a rest.
2004/8/20 [Recreation/Activities, Recreation/Humor] UID:33040 Activity:moderate
8/20    I've been playing badminton for years but I didn't know it can be a
        funny sport:
        \_ That's the new Badminton Dance competition, you silly.
2004/8/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:33041 Activity:very high
8/20    So I was doing a dumbass experiment last night, as nerds are wont to
        do.  Say we have a three-state nation, with 10,000 people in each
        state, and 1 electoral vote for each state.  You need 2 out of 3
        electoral votes to win.  Let's say Kerry wins 100% of state 1.
        Let's say Dubya wins 5,001 votes in states 2 and 3.  Dubya wins
        the Presidency with 2 out of 3 electoral votes, and Kerry wins
        the popular vote with 19,998 votes to 10,002 votes, or 2 : 1.
        If you do the same experiment with 51 states of 10K people each,
        you obtain a ratio of 2.92 : 1 -- or 25% of the nation elected
        the President although 75% of the nation voted for the other guy.
        I offer no opinion - it's just a dumbass experiment.
        \_ Good thing we have the congress instead of an elected monarchy.
        \_ Yes, we knew this along, which is why it's pointless to vote
           in a non-battleground state. I mean, you're just realizing this?
           Have you people actually attempted to stay awake in your
           High School U.S. History and Government classes?
           \_ No, I know you all realized the electoral college system will
              give and has given in the most recent election presidencies to
              those without the popular vote.
              However, not all of you may have worked out the related basic
              math experiment.
              And actually, I suggest that all Kerry voters in California
              turn out, and all Dubya voters stay home, just because it
              would be funny if we ended up with 55% popular vote to Kerry
              and he lost.
              \_ Actually, I thought 2000 was only the second time ever that
                 someone won the electoral college but lost the popular vote.
                 \_ Four times total.
                    \_ Could you please name them?
           \_ It isn't pointless.  In a non-battleground state, everyone should
              vote for Nader so we can break the two-party system which is
              destroying this country.
              \_ Amen!  Go Nader!  Break the Democrat monopoly on the
                 liberal vote in America! -- ilyas
        \_ one of the nerds who I work with who also likes to do experiments
           like this found a situation in which the electoral college will
           be tied which is based on very reasonable assumptions about how
           the states might actually vote.
           \_ I did this in the LA Times flash tool for assigning votes.
        \_ The electoral college as it is, is undemocratic.  It used to be
           a lot less democratic. The founders didn't really trust 'the people'
           \_ hint: we live in a republic so undemocratic is ok.
           \_ bullshit since 'the mexican people' would be able to
              run the United States just by filing up LA
              \_ Well first around 100 million Mexicans have to sneak in, then
                 become citizens and register to vote.  This will happen
                 sometime after we elect a black lesbian atheist as president.
                 \_ We all knew Condi was doing Dubya just for this!
           \_ It was part of the large state/small state compromise.  Good
              thing too, or the 5 largest metro areas would run everything.
        \_ This has happened in past presidential elections.
        \_ "Some call you the elite.  I call you my base."
           \_ All your base belong to us.
              \_ Get it right if you're going to use this outdated joke.
                 Are your base _are_ belong to us.
                 \_ Get it right if you're going to use this outdated joke.
                    _All_ your base are belong to us.
                 \_ You have no time to troll make your time.
        \_ State 1 voters got screwed.  Voters in states 2 and 3 got their
           issues heard.
           \_ How did State 1 voters get screwed?  There was a system in place
              long before either candidate was born.  This is how we do it.
              Every voting system has flaws.  You just want a system that is
              flawed in a way you believe to be favorable to your candidate.
              What you're missing in your description is that out here in the
              non-theoretical real world of voters, states don't have exactly
              the same number of voters, citizens, electoral votes, etc.  Only
              about half those elible to vote, do.  With only 1/2 "+1" of that
              required for a win, roughly 12.5% of the eligble voting
              population will win the election for either candidate.  The
              problem isn't the electoral college.  It is lack of voter
              participation.  A popular vote of 12.5% or electorally assigned
              12.5% is still a trivial fraction of who could and should be
              \_ No, actually, we're just talking about our thought experiment.
                 No one is advocating a change from the electoral college
                 system.  The real effect of this discussion is that it would
                 be very funny if Dubya lost the popular vote by a significant
                 percentage, and still is re-elected.
                 \_ no, it wouldn't be funny.  -tom
                 \_ uhm, ok, nevermind then.  I still think it's ugly that only
                    12.5% "+1" of the elible potential voters will decide who
                    the next President and all other elected officials will be
                    and similar numbers have done so in the past.  Nevermind,
                    fuck the rest of them if they can't bother to go vote.
           \-Read about the Arrow Impossibility Theorem. That is the main
             result in this area. --psb
             \_ The Theorem applies when there are at least two voters and at
                least three options, but in our presidential election we only
                have two candidates.
                \_ How about adding Nader? State 1: Kerry-10,000. States 2 & 3:
                   Bush-3334, Kerry & Nader-3333 each. Win: Bush. Ratio of 6668
                   vs. 23,332. Wee! Fun! Brought to an insane level it could be
                   4 vs. 29,996. Ah math...
                   \_ You are varying the wrong variable.  If you have 100
                      serious candidates for one position and assume a single
                      election where everyone agrees a plurality is a fair win,
                      you can even more trivially show a win with 1% of the
             \_ I think I already implicitely stated that the scenario isn't
                fair.  I would also claim that the system allows the concerns
                of states 2 and 3 to be addressed more fully, and this is
                an important consideration.  What is more important depends
                whether your greater concern is on state 1, state 2 or 3, or
                states 1+2+3.
                \_ The concern for your issues should be proportional to your
                   population. -- Small-d-democrat
                   \_ It depends on your scope.  If I am unemployed and homeless
                      in Alaska, do I care if the candidate is going to do right
                      by California?  Shoudl I care?  Or do I care more about
                      job programs where I live?
                   \_ It depends on your scope.  If I am unemployed and
                      homeless in Alaska, do I care if the candidate is going
                      to do right by California?  Shoudl I care?  Or do I care
                      more about job programs where I live?
                   \_ Are you seriously advocating pure democracy??
                   \_ This is not fair at all and the founding fathers
                      understood that. Why should lots of hip and trendy
                      SF iPoding linux users whose main concern is the
                      lack of high speed internet and marriage rights for
                      homeless gays with a dope prescription dictate
                      national policy for the poor rural hick farmers
                      with gun racks in the back of their F150s who
                      actually do all the hard work of keeping America
                      fed and clothed?
                      Everyone has valid concerns and the most equitable
                      way to address these is the system we have. Maybe
                      its not perfect but it is the best system we know
                      \_ there are 750K people in SF, which represents
                         about .5% of the electorate.  They wouldn't dictate
                         to people in Wyoming, any more than people in Wyoming
                         dictate to people in SF now, if the electoral college
                         were gotten rid of. And hey, candidates might actually
                         have to campaign to ALL THE PEOPLE instead of just
                         corn farmers in Iowa.  -tom
                         \_ The greater bay area has more people than the state
                            of wyoming but I think wyoming, being a state,
                            should have greater rights than a large city.  Our
                            system does that.  As far as Iowa, change the
                            primary system and no one will give a shit about
                            Iowa or New Hampshire.
                            \_ States don't have rights.  People have rights.
                               \_ Uh, no.
                                  \_ Try actually *reading* that definition.
                                     ""States' Rights" is actually a
                                     misnomer; only the people, in
                                     American constitutional law, hold rights."
                                     And more fundamentally, only people hold
                                     interests; "California" isn't a single
                                     entity with a single point of view.  -tom
                                     \_ I did before posting it.  And?
                               \_ So if states don't have rights, then
                                  what is all that "full faith and credit"
                                  stuff about?
           \_ Well, technically, 100% of State 1 voters got screwed; and
              50.01% of state 2 and 3 voters got their issues heard.
              \_ You are assuming that (to continue the thought experiment)
                 Kerry didn't adjust his message to capture states 2 and 3.
                 A more realistic case would be that, the closer the contest
                 in states 2 and 3, the more the candidate would try to cater
                 to those states.  State 1 got screwed in another way because
                 they were so much in the pocket of one candidate, there is
                 no need for either candidate to address the specific needs
                 of the state.
                 \_ I don't think "adjusting your message" really gets that
                    many votes.  I think most people are in tune to enough
                    sources of information today that if you talk out both
                    sides of your mouth in two different states, the people
                    do hear what was said in the other state and label you
                    a flip flopper.
                 \_ I think this is a case where the persuasiveness of the math
                    exceeds that of your explanation, but that's just IMO.
                    Like I am Dilbert, and you are the PHB.
                    \_ I would claim that my argument on the variablity of the
                       message is not addressed by the mathematical model.
                       How about this?  Let's say a candidate has a platform
                       with some degree of variability.  For states 1, 2, and
                       3, platform A will get you {100,10,10}% of the vote,
                       +/- moe.  Platform B will get you {100, 20, 20}, C
                       {100, 30, 30}, and N {100, 49.99, 49.99}.  Which one
                       should the candidate choose?  Now how about a more
                       realisitic platform N' (since likely N does not exist
                       in the real world), which yields {51, 49.99, 49.99} +/-
                       moe?  Who gets screwed then?
                       \_ I don't know if it's my fault or not, but I really
                          don't understand the above.  Let's say all good
                          people vote for Kerry.  All evil people (who honestly
                          think they're good) vote for Dubya.  100% of state 1
                          residents happen to be good.  50.01% of state 2 and
                          3 residents happen to be evil.  Dubya is elected:
                          100% of state 1 voters got screwed; 50.01% of state
                          2 and 3 voters got their issues heard.
                          \_ I am claiming the existence of a platform N'
                             {51, 49.99, 49.99}% that gives the candidate the
                             best chance to win.  Let's say his starting
                             platform is N, with {100, 55, 55}% of the votes.
                             Then, to get the N', he has to give up 49% of the
                             votes in state 1 in exchange for 10% of the votes
                             in states 2 and 3.  However, the candidate has no
                             chance to win given N, but has a better chance to
                             win with N', so that's a good exchange, and the
                             platform end ups being more targeted towards
                             voters in states 2 and 3 than 1.  The complement
                             happens with the other candidate, whose winning
                             strategy would be a platform that yields {dontcare,
                             50.01, 50.01}.
                             strategy would be a platform that yields {dont
                             care, 50.01, 50.01}.
                             \_ Strong Bad totally needs to come in and kick
                                all of your weakling nerdy asses.
        \_ People in big cities are more likely to engage
           in groupthink, so the electoral college system dilutes
           this effect.
           \_ You have either never lived in a small subruban town, or you
              are being intentionaly evil.  If the former, I salute you:
              keep up the good work and continue to live the good life.  If
              the latter: fuck you--please choke on a donut and die.
2004/8/20-21 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:33042 Activity:moderate
8/20    How do I make tcsh to return an empty list for things like
        foreach foo (bar/*) if there is no glob match rather than
        generating an exception and stops the script?
        \_ the "nonomatch" variable doesn't quite do what you want,
           but it's pretty close.
           \-sigh, this is one of those lame things about csh.
             you can do foreach i (`echo bar/*`) which will generate
             an error, but the foreach will work. you can of course
             do foreach i (`echo bar/* >&/dev/null`) to not see the
             error. but in both of these cases, the loop will not run
             even once. if you want to run the loop once with empty
             args, you would need to foreach i (`echo bar/* >&/dev/null` " ")
             [or something like that]. of course you can replace echo with
             find bar -type f etc. you may be better off building the
             filelist with find, then doing an if -z and then calling
             the loop. otherwise you get weird behavior ...
             set foo = "" then try ls $foo, ls "$foo", touch $foo, touch "$foo"
             and then try with set foo = " ". you either have to be really
             conservative in your quoting and such or you have to check
             inputs ... it's actually pretty much impossible to be fully
             conservative in csh to deal with arbitrary valid filenames
             [!, space, tab, $, %, ? , * are all legit filechars].
             this is a big pain in the ass on osX.
             --mr. tcsh
             \_ Yes, this is what perl is for.  --other tcsh guy
                \- well i think tcsh is fine for a lot of one shot things
                   and maybe if you "know" it will be well behaved. --psb
2004/8/20-21 [Transportation/Car] UID:33043 Activity:nil
8/20    pretty interesting -
        dict juggernaut:
        Jagannath \Jag"an*nath\, Jagannatha \Jag`an*na"tha\, n. Also
        Juggernaut \Jug"ger*naut\ [Hind. Jagan-n[=a]th lord of the
        world, Skr. jagann[=a]tha.] (Hinduism)
        A particular form of Vishnu, or of Krishna, whose chief idol
        and worship are at Puri, in Orissa. The idol is considered to
        contain the bones of Krishna and to possess a soul. The
        principal festivals are the Snanayatra, when the idol is
        bathed, and the Rathayatra, when the image is drawn upon a
        car adorned with obscene paintings. Formerly it was
        erroneously supposed that devotees allowed themselves to be
        crushed beneath the wheels of this car. It is now known that
        any death within the temple of Jagannath is considered to
        render the place unclean, and any spilling of blood in the
        presence of the idol is a pollution.
2004/8/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33044 Activity:nil
8/20    New swiftvets ad concerning Kerry's post war activity, narrated
        by POWs
        \_ Wheeeeeee. As if our current domestic problems don't merit
           any debate or discussion. My republic is in ruins.
           \_ You tell em aaron!
        \_ This is not "new" is it? But by all means, keep bringing up
           Kerry's Vietnam service so that voters can compare it to Bush's
           lack thereof. I am telling you, this is a losing strategy and
           you guys are really blowing it here. Anyone who supported
           the Vietnam war 30 years ago is not going to vote for Kerry
           anyway. -Kerry supporter
           \_ Actually, having everyone read the swift vets book, raising
              enough funds to play the swift vets commercial in swing states
              more often, and with that money creating a new swift vets
              commercial with more veterans calling Kerry a liar, an
              opportunist, and unfit for duty while Dubya says he never saw
              the ad is a winning strategy.  No, I'm not making fun of you,
              that's just how it is. -liberal
              \_ Sadly the above poster is correct.  With an electorate as
                 deadlocked as this, all you need to do is seed doubt in the
                 minds of a few undecided voters in swing states.  Go electoral
              \_ "Everyone" is not going to read the book, anymore than
                 everyone saw Michael Moore's movie. It is only going to
                 appeal to the already converted. Kerry is winning this
                 election and Karl Rove knows it. This is a desperate
                 attempt to turn things around. -ks
                 \_ I agree on the desperate attempt part and the Rove knowing
                    Kerry is winning part. -liberal
                    \_ I am also a liberal Kerry supporter, but you are both
                       full of crap.  This election will be *very* close
                       if you believe the polls.  It's absurd to say that
                       "Kerry is winning."
                       \_ the way we use it, we are saying:  Kerry has the
                          momentum, and will win in November.  The swift vets
                          ad is supposed to reverse this momentum. -liberal
2004/8/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:33045 Activity:insanely high
8/20    Here's the $200 bet guy's update:
        Not trending well in your favor, especially considering the RNC gets
        their turn soon and the swift boat vet's message is sinking in.
        \_ 200 dollar bet guy?  huh?
        \_ Yay, negative campaigning without a shred of substance driven by
           lots of well organized people and loads of money works!  Isn't life
           \_ um. Soros gives $2 million and vets only get $100,000?
              \_ Playing dumb is fun, but come on.  This whole Swift Boat thing
                 is absolutely classic Karl Rove.  Don't any of you remember
                 \_ Who cares where it came from?  The issue is whether or not
                    what they're saying is true.  Not who organised or funded
                    them.  If they honestly came up with all this on their own
                    and funded it with their own credit cards and third
                    mortgages on their homes would you still dismiss them? Yes.
           \_ If what we've been seeing for 18 months is what the DNC called
              a positive campaign at their convention I can't imagine what a
              negative campaign would look like.
           \_ 250 guys who knew him and 60 who served directly with him who
              say he's full of shit sounds substantial.  Maybe Kerry could
              sign Form 180 and just bury them with the truth, eh?
        \_ Is this your way of admitting that Kerry is ahead?
           \_ No one is ahead.  The idea is silly.  I'm the one that has been
              saying for months that polls are silly at this point.  3 debates,
              an ignored VP debate, an election and then we'll know.  I'm just
              tweaking the $200 bet guy's nose for fun and profit.
              \_ You must be the "Winning California by a landslide" guy.
              \_ Go read the campaign finance laws. The 527s are not allowed
                 to co-ordinate with the parties. And yeah, you need evidence
                 of a crime to get the law to act, not just wild accusations.
                 Having made an ass of yourself, you're out to spread the love
                 around a little?
                 \_ I *must* be?  Nope, sorry, I think he's deluded.  You're
                    simply as confused as he is.  Have a nice day!
        \_ Proof that the Republicans have no connection to SMVFT:
        \_ Evidence that the Republicans have a connection to SBVFT:
  (Yahoo News)
           \_ Duh.  All the 527s are very closely connected with one of the
              two parties.  Campaign finance reform was a joke with a (so far)
              $63 million loophole for Kerry and I'm not sure how many $million
              loophole for Bush.  You don't need evidence to prove any
              connection between these bullshit 527s and the 2 parties.  It is
              naivete of the highest order to assume otherwise.
              \_ The law states that the parties cannot co-ordinate with the
                 527s. You might believe that MoveOn and the DNC are in
                 cahoots, but there is no evidence of this. This is evidence
                 that SBVFT and the Republican Party are illegally
        \_ More bad news for Swiftie Boy:
  (Yahoo news)
2004/8/20-21 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers, Computer/Companies/Google] UID:33046 Activity:very high
8/20    Anybody else troubled by Google's valuation and growth prospects?  I
        don't think their ad supported revenue model can grow much higher.
        When I first started using google I clicked on those links.  But after
        a few times of not finding what I wanted I stopped clicking on ad
        supported links.  Same deal with Yahoo.  I use yahoo finance everyday.
        I've mentally tuned out of the ad banners.  I barely see them anymore.
        I think when one becomes used to the web site and becomes a power user
        of the site, one only looks at the relevant information.  The only way
        an ad can get my attention is if it appears in the same page and
        blocks the text I'm reading.  Only using IE do I see those.  Google
        is the best search engine out there.  But if people aren't clicking
        on those ad links, they will lose advertisers.
        \_ I block ads using the AdBlock Firefox plugin which works pretty
           nicely to and often removes even the space where the ad would be.
           Ha ha! fuck you, Internet! Google's ads don't bother me but then
           I never click them either. Other people must though and re: the guy
           below intentionally googling for ads, well I don't buy that much
           stuff but it's a case where Google's ad model is the most useful
           to me versus any other web site. If I bought more stuff that is.
        \_ The quality of Google's searches has dropped dramatically in the
           last year similar to what we saw circa 1999 or so.  "Best search
           engine out there" doesn't mean what it used to.  Everything used
           to be a front page hit with a few key terms.  Now I can punch in
           6 or more very specific terms, double quote phrases, etc, and not
           find something until 10+ pages deep.
           \_ I agree, and it makes me sad.  What makes me even sadder is that
              this is inherent to how google works.  Google made an HTML link
              valuable.  The market does the rest. -- ilyas
           \_ YOUR FU IZ WEAK,  MINE 1Z STRONG!
        \_ I buy really hard to find expensive stuff fairly frequently, and
           I often use google specifically with the intention of clicking
           on their targeted ads.  I have no idea how much money that
           makes google, but I definitely find it useful.  It seems to me that
           this kind of advertising is very useful for companies that sell
           small numbers of really expensive stuff, like microfabrication
        \_ Part of the problem is that click-through remains the main standard
           for evaluating the effectiveness of Internet advertising.  With
           other forms of visual ads, such as billboards, advertisers can
           only assess the outcome of a campaign by its effect on sales.
           They don't expect "click-through" because there is no such thing.
           Internet advertising often works on the same subconcious level as
           a billboard or a television commercial, so why should be it held
           to this higher standard?  This doesn't necessarily apply to paid
           placement of text as it doesn't really penetrate subconciously
           the way a strong image can - I guess I'm thinking more of banner
           ads, which you refer to.
           \_ It isn't a case of "should be".  It is a case of "can be" so it
              is.  As an advertiser you would insist upon using an available
              and valuable metric like click throughs.
              \_ AdWords advertisers pay per click.  The clickthrough
                 is not the most important metric to them.
                 \_ If it is measurable, it should be measured.  As the paying
                    customer, the advertiser, why would you not want to see
                    the available metrics showing the effectiveness of your
                    ad on that site and pay by that?
              \_ Except that the "value" of advertising, at least in the case
                 of mass market brands, is the subconsious impact of the
                 advertising image itself.  Why do you think SuperBowl ads
                 are so expensive?  Millions of eyes thinking they're ignoring
                 that Coca-Cola logo in front of them.  Your point is more valid
                 in the case of niche markets.
                 advertising image itself.  Why do you think SuperBowl ads are
                 so expensive?  Millions of eyes thinking they're ignoring
                 that Coca-Cola logo in front of them.  Your point is more
                 valid in the case of niche markets.
                 \_ If they could measure it, you know they would and there
                    would be contracted financial terms based in part on those
                    measurements.  Since they don't have hard numbers, they
                    spend a lot of money on market research to determine how
                    effective an ad campaign was.  They don't just spend
                    millions of dollars on an ad and hope for the best.
        \_ Gmail + Google Search == The most powerful market research firm
           ever. They intend to make money by predicting where you will go
           next (past performance is a good indicator of future direction)
           and selling that information.
           \_ As if you knew.
2004/8/20-21 [Industry/Jobs] UID:33047 Activity:moderate
8/20    New SAGE Salary Survey out.
           \_ I put it in /var/tmp/seesal -ausman
        \_ need to register
        \_ Can someone drop the pdf in /tmp?
           \_ I put it in /var/tmp/seesal -ausman
              \_ Permissions are too tight to read it.
                 \_ Ooops. Fixed.
                  \_ bad sysadmin!
2004/8/20-21 [Computer/SW/Languages/Python] UID:33048 Activity:very high
8/20    Are python's built-in sequence types thread safe (when using
        python's threads)? Thanks.
        \_ Threads are never safe.  Unroll all loops.  Stop using switch/case
           and other ugly branching mechanisms.  GOTO.  You want GOTO.  A
           properly written program with GOTO and LABEL statements is all you
           \_ But python doesn't have goto and label statements.
              What do I do now?!
              \_ GOTO :BASIC!
                 \_ Pfffffffft.  Kids these days with their symbolic identifiers
                    and high level features like 'arrays' and 'variables.'
                    Back when I was your age, all we had were punch cards and
                    machine code.  And we liked it!  We loved it!
                 \_ Pfffffffft.  Kids these days with their symbolic
                    identifiers and high level features like 'arrays'
                    and 'variables.' Back when I was your age, all we
                    had were punch cards and machine code.  And we
                    liked it!  We loved it!
                    \_ You had punch cards?  I wish I had punch cards.  Did
                       they give you more than 1?
                       \_  1000101110101001? 10101011111011001! 11111000010111
                           10110 101010000 up hill both ways!
                           \_ You had zeros and ones?  And hills?  You had
                              hills?  And directions?  Vectors?!!!  Whoa....
2004/8/20-21 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:33049 Activity:nil
8/20    Shit.  This is exactly what precipitated Chicago '68.  Now all we
        need is a few overzealous cops and a few overzealous protesters: (yahoo! news link)
2004/8/20-21 [Uncategorized] UID:33050 Activity:low
8/20    What's the closest miniature go-kart place to Berkeley?
        \_ maybe Karts-n-Golf on Ardenwood in Fremont.  -tom
        \_ in Burlingame.
2004/8/20-21 [Consumer/Camera, Computer/HW/Printer] UID:33051 Activity:nil
8/20    Canon EOS 20D:
        \_ That's so "yesterday's gizmodo"
2004/8/20-21 [Finance/Investment] UID:33052 Activity:insanely high
8/20    Hahaha ... Soros, "willing to put [his] money where [his] mouth is"
        I feel like I'm becoming a freeper! -liberal
        \_ What's wrong with Soros destroying the US economy?  As long as it
           gets Dubya out of office, I'm all for it.
        \_ ...on John Kerry's wang?
        \_ It's funny how Soros was widely praised in the media by both
           liberals and conservatives after he crushed SE asian financial
           systems, ruining and most probably shortening millions of lives.
           \-praised? i thought he was attacked when he and other currency
             traders took advantage of public claims of the bank of england
             and some other central banks to defend a given exchange rate
             [in europe]?
        \_ The idea that $7B could destabalize the American currency markets
        \_ The idea that $7B could destabilize the American currency markets
           is laughable. Daily movement on the currency markets is upwards
           of $1T.
           \_ Money used at the right time in the right way can make things
              happen.  It isn't about the daily movement.  It is about the
              movement at one particular moment in time to create a bandwagon
              effect for the rest of the traders who are forced to follow.  If
              it gets Bush out of office, I'm all for it.  Destroying the
              US economy is a small price to pay.
              \_ Sorry righty troll, not a good enough impersonation of
                 a Bush hater. Try again.
2004/8/20-21 [Recreation/Music] UID:33053 Activity:very high
8/20    psb, do you listen to Indian music? In an attempt to fit into my
        work place better I've been listening to a few, and all I could
        really appreciate is that all the female singer have this really
        whiny, annoying high-pitched voice. What do you like about that?
        \- no i listen to north american music. are you talking about the
           whiny, annoying high-pitched pitched woman or her whiny, annoying
           high-pitched sister?
        \_ Sounds like you listen to Hindustani music. It is terrible,
           lots of boring high-pitched female vocalists who sound like
           they are moaning. Carnatic music (the true classical music
           of India) is far better. The music is pleasant and melodious
           and most of the female vocalists have soothing voices.
           \-well as they say, if you want to get a response on the
             internet, say soomething wrong and wait for the "corrections".
             "indian music' is no more a category than "indian food" or
             "american music". major categories of india music include:
             north indian classical [ravi shankar], carnatic [both with
             some sanskrit basis],  islamic stuff [qwaali, ghazals], hindi
             film music [although the "old classics" are pretty different
             in flavor from the current stuff], folk music from different
             parts, kirtans and other hiddu religious music from different
             parts, kirtans and other hindu religious music from different
             parts. in bengal there is classical, rabindrasangeet, baul[folk],
             adhunik [modern, but that means like 1950-70s say], more recent
             "bands" etc. the high pitched moaning is probably *not*
             hindustan [north indian] classical. --psb
                \_ Most hindustani female vocalists I've heard in
                   concert have really high pitched voices and many
                   of the songs they sing are raga exposition which
                   can sound (to the untrained) like high pitched
                   moaning. To me the biggest problem w/ hindustani
                       \- three words: Der Holle Rache --psb
                   music is not the way it sounds but mostly the lack
                   of content. In a concert most of the songs are
                   designed to highlight the vocal range of the
                   artist. While this maybe considered by some to
                   be beautiful, I find Carnatic music far more
                   engaging since its form allows artists to display
                   their vocal talents within songs of great poetic
                   and religious content. To listen to MLV sing a
                   great Thyagaraja kriti is an experience that
                   cannot be matched by in hindustani music.
                   cannot be matched in hindustani music.
           \_ Not to interrupt the South Indian chest pounding, but
              there's a lot of great North Indian classical music too, but
              i'd agree that Bollywood-style pop songs are crap. To the op,
              here are a couple of recommendations to get your started:
              L. Subramanium, Bimsen Joshi (i do realize I've been trolled)
        \_ holy cow, I can't believe that reading motd can actually be a
           culturally enlighting experience. We need more of this and less
           of the usual political hate-shout exchanges.
           \_ Why do you hate India?
           \_ India: interesting food+music. Ass Art. China: interesting
              art and food, ass music.
                \_ Indian sculpture, mostly in the form of religious
                   deities, lacks nothing in form, composition and
                   creativity when compared to classical greek or
                   even renaissance works. It is cloaked w/in a
                   religious veil that most westerners can never
                   penetrate though.
                   \_  I wouldn't mind penetrating through some of those
                       hindu godesses depicted in their sculptures.
                   \_ I don't really agree. What I've seen can certainly
                      compare with certain western periods but not, at least
                      in sheer form and sophistication, with the height of
                      greek and renaissance. But hey show me some pics.
2018/11/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:August:20 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>