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2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32916 Activity:nil
8/15    anyone used Dspam?  I was going to install it, but "they" seem not
        to have renewed their domain (http://www.nuclearelephant.com
        doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32918 Activity:high 80%like:32924
8/15    Why does Bush refuse to release his military records?
        \_ yermom's record is she's a slut
           \_ yer reaching.
        \_ Maybe he's waiting until a few days before election to make the best
           use of it.  That is, if there's nothing wrong with his records.
           \_ if Nixon had immediately released the tapes, even with editing
              for "national security interests", chances are that he could
              have survived Watergate.  But instead, he delayed and temporized
              encouraging the belief (which just happened to be true anyway)
              that there was a coverup.
              \_ But nowadays, the media are compliant lapdogs.  Just look at
                 formerly hallowed institution of the WaPo, who brought down
                 Nixon.  Now they have to run apologies after the fact for
                 their lazy and dishonest WMD reporting.  So its in Bush's
                 best interest just to sit on anything he has that's
                 embarrassing, because the media will quickly get bored and
                 return to Bennifer or Laci Peterson or whatever else sells
                 papers and increases ratings.
                 \_ And Kerry's as well for his records but no one asks for
                    those from a man who is running solely on his 4 months
                    of duty on a swiftboat.
2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32919 Activity:high
8/15    Excellent!  The motd has been stripped of anything interesting enough
        to inspire more than a single reply.  That leaves us all-clear to
        really get it going!  (2 points to Ulysses for the 'resume bombing'
        comment because sometimes you gotta work with what ya got).
        \_ There are two groups responsible for this: jive ass motherfucker
           republicans who post exactly the *same* kerry/swiftboat troll
           every fucking day, and five ass motherfucer republicans who
           every fucking day, and five ass motherfucker republicans who
           like to come in every morning at about 9 am pacific time and delete
           everything they think is "noise,"  i.e. almost all politics and
           most humor.  After weeks and weeks of this eventually people
           stop posting *or* reading since there'll be nothing interesting,
           and if there is, it'll get deleted by a certain someone within
           an hour.
        \_ yermom is useful when stripped
           \_ is it ecchang?
           \_ w00t!  It's all the republican's fault!
           \_ *laugh*  Anything bad: must be republican.  Anything republican:
              must be bad.  I love you guys!  BTW, where's the script that
              tracks motd edits by political party?  Does it check the voter
              registration records in real time or just one per election
              season?
2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32920 Activity:very high 66%like:32935
8/16    Why is the swiftboat troll so persistent?
        \_ 3 wounds and you get to go home, Kerry got 3 purple hearts
           for 3 scratches and got to go home, but also made himself
           and video taped himself to appear like Kennedy in
           his reenactments of his wounds. Also, Xmas in Cambodia
           depends on your definition of "seered"
           \_ If you were in Vietnam and realized that the war was a mistake
              (after the burning villages, the carpet bombing, the fact
              that four times as many civilians were dying as enemy soldiers,
              etc.), you'd be happy to get three scratches for three purple
              hearts.
              You'd still do your job right while you were there, and when
              you left, even after four short months, you wouldn't be a coward.
              As for Christmas in Cambodia, his people said he got the date
              wrong.
              \_ Stop with the "four short months".  He did two tours.
              \_ if the dumb fuck doesnt know when Xmas is, then he
                shouldn't be our president
                \_ Troll.  He never said he didn't know when Christmas was, he
                   said he didn't know what day it happened.
                   \_ it was "seered" in his mind that it was Xmas
                   \_ it was a "life changing" moment in his life, so much
                     so that he talked about it in front of Congress
                     so much so that he doesn't know what day xmas is?
                \_ I believe it is an exaggerated war story.  His people have
                   since said he was near Cambodia during Christmas, and in
                   Cambodia in January.  In his mind, he thought, what the hey,
                   I was doing the missions, I was in Cambodia under fire from
                   both sides, and it makes a better story to say Christmas.
                   \_ That's fine if you're telling it to your grandkids.
                      But don't you think telling it to congress under
                      oath is kinda dumb?
                      \_ Only if you were testifying on precise dates of when
                         U.S. soldiers were in Cambodia.
                         \_ So lying is ok as long as you weren't asked a
                            direct question on the subject?  Okie Dokie!
                            \_ I don't think this is lying, just as much as
                               people say GW Bush is a liar.  Kerry was
                               mistaken, and at worst, exaggerated -- lying
                               is something else.  Bush was mistaken, and
                               at worst, misled the American people.
                            \_ Getting an unimportant detail (the exact date)
                               wrong does not make you a liar.  It may make you
                               sloppy or forgetful, but not a liar.
                \_ I have nothing against people trying to get out of
                   'nam.  Just don't act like some kind of hero because of
                    it.
                \_ It still hasn't been documented he even went to
                   Cambodia.
                   \_ Hell, we still say we never had ANY troops in cambodia.
              \_ I don't have a problem with Kerry using the 3-purple-heart
                 rule.  I think there are some legitimate questions about it
                 that haven't been answered, and I get irritated that most of
                 the responses are to (1) label it as a troll and dismiss it,
                 or (2) use a strawman argument. -emarkp
                 \_ The first time it was posted, it was interesting.  I'll even
                    grant a second and a third time.  However, the repeated
                    posting of a topic without any new information simply for
                    the purposes of encouraging people to yell at one another
                    is textbook trolling.
        \_ i keep posting it to show how vicious and vile the
           extreme right can be, sorry
           \_ Why do you hate America?
           \_ It isn't extreme if it's true.
        \_ Because they ask a lot of unanswered questions.  Censoring them
           won't make the questions go away.  It only makes it look like
           Kerry has a critical weakness you're trying to hide.  I assume
           you're the one who censors it given your comment.  I've never posted
           a swiftboat link and haven't seen that many.  I think you spend too
           much time on this.
           \_ when did you stop beating your wife?
              \_ I think you meant to ask the OP this.
        \_ Because work is boring.
2004/8/16 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:32921 Activity:nil
8/16    Does anyone know how to turn off Java automatic garbage collection on
        java version "1.4.2_01"
        Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.2_01-b06)
        Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.4.2_01-b06, mixed mode)
        ?  -noasyncgc is no longer supported.
2004/8/16 [Politics, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:32922 Activity:nil
8/16    http://LastWishes.com
        discuss
        \_ yermom
        \_ What is wrong with it? It's a kind program.
        \_ I was thinking about this the other day-- does soda have any policy
           regarding dead members?  Can I elect someone to get my home dir
           upon my untimely demise?
        \_ "This is the biggest con since Genghis!"
2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32923 Activity:nil
8/16    Chavez declared winner in Venezuela referendum:
        link:csua.org/u/8lu (NYTimes, csuamotd/csuamotd)
        OTOH, opponents say electronic voting machines tampered with. Anyone
        want to take bets on whether or not this is a precursor to the
        aftermath of the upcoming US election?
        \_ This isn't a third world banana republic like Venezuela.
2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32924 Activity:high 80%like:32918
8/16    Why does Kerry refuse to release his military records?
        \_ Why doesn't Kerry sic the FBI on protestors?
        \_ People always seem to be willing to discuss what Bush hasn't
           released his records.  I was just wondering why the same
           standards don't apply to the war hero.  Just because you don't
           like the question doesn't mean it's a troll.
           \_ that's stupid also.  two idiocys don't cancel eachother out,
              especially when one is posted less than once a week and the
              other is posted more than once a day.
              \_ Agreed.  The swiftboat troll may hold the record for
                 persistence.
                 \_ With enough money and stupidity behind them, these
                    memes last forever.
                    \_ NPR reports radio ads on "black" stations calling Kerry
                       just another "rich, white man" and traced the money
                       back to...a rich, white Republican. You gotta love it.
                       I'd promote the Cynosure method of presidental election
                       if only we could strip the executive branch of any real
                       power....
                       \_ Yup, a rich white republican who has been active in
                          the black community for decades, attends a black
                          church every week for many years, etc.  I'm sure you
                          are more in touch with them than he is.
                          \_ Of course is he.  Democrats are always more
                             in tune with the poor black man than any
                             republican.
2004/8/16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:32925 Activity:high
8/16    Let's pool our resources and try to get the Bananasplit Troll a new
        job, so he doesn't have so much time on his hands.  Either that or
        a RealDoll or something.
        \_ Isn't that making a deal with the terrorist?
           \_ Only if someone's afraid of the trolls.
              \_ Why do you hate trolls?
2004/8/16 [Computer/SW/Editors] UID:32926 Activity:nil
8/16    What are the pros/cons of using ctags/etags/cscope? ok thx.
2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32927 Activity:insanely high
8/16    Why is John a Tom Holub lover?
        \_ why don't you ask yermom
        \_ Same reason you're a shit-eating knucklehead pillow biter
           fucknut.  Genetics, I guess.  -John
           \_ Americans, all guts, nothing else.
                \_ Guess that's why all the losers from the lesser nations
                   want to move there.  -John
                   \_ Only losers like to move to America?  Winners move
                      to Europe?
                      \_ I think you've misread John's comment rather badly.
        \_ The only thing they have in common is some odd sense of self
           righteousness about anonymity on the motd.  I guess everyone
           needs a hobby.
2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32928 Activity:nil
8/16    Hey, whatever happened to that pizza delivery guy who was
        kidnapped and strapped into a bomb?  Did they find the guy who
        did it?
        \_ http://csua.org/u/8m2  (dated Aug 11, 2004)
           \_ This is totally unrelated, but the site has a short
              registration before getting to the article.  I wrote that
              I was a 61 year old woman from Kansas.  Do they actually
              expect to get good results with this stuff?
2004/8/16-19 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:32929 Activity:high
8/19    So when can Google be shorted? Is that possible already? What
        about options?
        \_ As soon as it starts trading.  You can't short or option it when
           there's no price.
           \_ I thought the SEC imposes a waiting period.
        \_ Why do you think Google should be shorted?  -tom
           \_ Very high P/E ratio, uncertain prospects for growth, and a lot
              of privately-held stock remaining to be sold. -!op
           \_ They have been trying their best to diversify, but YHOO is a
              veteran at this.  At or below YHOO within 6 months. -!op
              \_ In what way is GOOG above YHOO now?  -tom
                 \_ share price, buzz, YHOO is time-tested
                    \_ which is completely meaningless.  -tom
                       \_ to the knowledgable investor, which would be great
                          in a market driven by said investors.
                          \_ Here's some news for you: people who don't know
                             the difference between share price and market
                             cap are not the ones driving the market.  -tom
                             \_ is this how it should be, how it is, or
                                somewhere in between?
                                \_ Ask BRKA.  -tom
                                   \_ don't ask an exception to the rule for
                                      objective advice.  In any case, opening
                                      price is a big deal for IPOs.  Otherwise
                                      there wouldn't be so many articles
                                      in major publications written about it.
                                      Follow your own axiom 1.  I even feel
                                      stupid writing GOOG goes down because
                                      it wants to match YHOO, but I can't
                                      help but feel it will end up being true.
                                      \_ You feel stupid because it's a stupid
                                         thing to say.  You want to bet on
                                         GOOG vs. YHOO?  -tom
                                         \_ No, for personal reasons, I won't
                                            bet in this specific instance.
                                            (But I would still put money
                                            on YHOO vs. GOOG.  And while I
                                            agree it *feels* like a "stupid
                                            thing to say", I still say it
                                            will probably end up being true.)
                                   \_ Okay, okay, you got me.  P/E between
                                      YHOO and GOOG are similar.  I thought
                                      they were different.  I am lame.
                                      Revised, it doesn't make sense if
                                      GOOG drops below YHOO in share price --
                                      it could happen, but only if investors
                                      are dumb *and* GOOD really messes it up.
                                      \_ Google treats options as an
                                         expense and books them as such.
                                         Yahoo does not. Want to run your
                                         numbers again, grasshopper?
                                         \_ Hey, I have no credibility now,
                                            stop bothering me.  Go bother tom.
                                         \_ Short YHOO, too. They are both
                                            overvalued.
                                            \_ according to what metrics?
        \_ So forth and speculate.
        \_ This doesn't answer your q, but GOOG peaked a couple hours ago ...
           \_ A long slow peak at 104 and now settling around 100...
              \_ I say $80 within a week!  $30 within six months!
                 Rationale? GOOG wants to be at or below YHOO in price per shr.
                 GOOG owners want GOOG to go up from $100, of course.
                 \_ Care to put your money where your mouth is?
                    \_ So when can Google be shorted?  Is it possible already?
                       \_ why don't you just try it?  I personally lack the
                          mindset for shorting.  All the shorts I picked
                          eventually turned out to be right (eg. shorted
                          PMCS at above 20), but I always gave up too early.
        \_ You've got 30 (calendar) days to wait. Right now, I suspect that
           that the extra 20% of stocks that were held back from the IPO are
           going to slowly start flooding the market dropping the price.
2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32930 Activity:high
8/16    Washington Post columnist:  "Who's the Flip-Flopper?"
        http://csua.org/u/8m1
        "Bush would not negotiate with North Korea. He did. Flip-flop.
        Bush told the United Nations to butt out of Iraq. Now he wants it in.
        Flip-flop. ...
        But it is the areas in which Bush's convictions have not changed that
        are the most troubling, and this includes a religiosity that comforts
        him in his intellectual inertness and granite-like beliefs that are
        impervious to logic, such as his tax policy and his relentless march
        to war in Iraq."
        \_ In a nonpartisan spirit, I'd just like to mention how
           the timing of this sort of thing mirrors simple playground
           politics: "you're wishy-washy!" (wait wait wait) "no YOU are!"
           (*bell rings*) "damn."
           \_ Your characterization is significantly more cynical than
              "non-partisan".
           \_ In a nonpartisan spirit, I'd just like to mention how GW Bush
              is perhaps the most inarticulate U.S. President of the last
              century.
              Now here's the partisan spin by press secretary McClellan:
              "... just shows even the most straightforward and plain-spoken
              people misspeak.  But the American people know this president
              speaks with clarity and conviction, and the terrorists know by
              his actions he means it."
              \_ Is our children learning?
              \_ "They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country
                  and our people, and neither do we."
              \_ "Karen is with us, a West Texas girl, just like me!"
        \_ Either you or this columnist should really quote where it's clear
           that "Bush would not negotiate with NK"
           \_ I'll assume you're serious about this, and I won't need to quote.
              The Bush administration's whole stink was that Clinton negotiated
              and appeased; Bush would not, and would only expect NK to back
              down without any guarantee of foreign aid.  Bush realized that
              he couldn't count on South Korea to side with him on an
              aggressive posture, and in the mean time, NK had probably built
              one or two nukes.  Bush negotiated.
2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32931 Activity:high
8/16    Orson Scott Card rambling book review/essay, that eventually comes
        to an interesting synthesis between republican and Democrat views
        on the war on terror.
        http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-08-08-1.html
        \_ Hi emarkp!
           \_ WRong, but nice try. -op
           \_ Indeed, I hadn't even seen this article yet (though I read the
              column, the current one was just posted).  -emarkp
        \_ Wait, let me get my hat and my magic stones!
           \_ Hi aaron!
              \_ Hi ilyas!
2004/8/16 [ERROR, uid:32932, category id '18005#14.1637' has no name! , ] UID:32932 Activity:nil
8/16    Switching from the banana split stuff to Kerry's Senate record, see the
        actual legislation he's sponsored:
        http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=134
2004/8/16 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32933 Activity:very high
8/16    Is it just me or do the Olympic Games in Greece this year seem
        to really suck? It seems like nobody is really interested in them
        and the stands are all empty. There doesn't seem to be a lot of
        promotion either. I remember the games back in 2000 sure seemed
        a bit more exciting. And it seems like the US, Germany, Russia,
        traditional Olympic powerhouses are really sucking this year.
        \_ The USA vs Puerto Rico basketball game was most exciting game!
            \_ Why do you hate America?
                 \_ "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are
                    we.  They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our
                     country and our people, and neither do we."
                     \_ Did anyone notice that on the 'Al-Qaeda hard drive'
                        they refered to the CIA and Mossad as 'Foreign
                        Competitors'?
                        \_ I don't get your point.
        \_ It would be more exciting if something blew up.
        \_ I'd be interested except I hate the coverage. I don't have a Tivo
           so it's basically unwatchable. It feels like half the time is
           spent with commercials, theme music, and random commentators.
2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Finance/Investment] UID:32934 Activity:nil
8/16    Yermom: discuss
        \_ Yo mama so dumb she thinks posting the same troll every day for
           weeks on end will actually change someones vote.
        \_ Yo mama smells so bad, Saddam tried to drop her on the Kurds!
2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32935 Activity:nil 66%like:32920
8/16    Why is the bananasplit troll so persistent?
        \_ 3 wounds and you get to go home, Kerry got 3 purple hearts
           for 3 scratches and got to go home, but also made himself
           and video taped himself to appear like Kennedy in
           his reenactments of his wounds. Also, Xmas in Cambodia
           depends on your definition of "seered"
           \_ If you were in Vietnam and realized that the war was a mistake
              (after the burning villages, the carpet bombing, the fact
              that four times as many civilians were dying as enemy soldiers,
              etc.), you'd be happy to get three scratches for three purple
              hearts.
              You'd still do your job right while you were there, and when
              you left, even after four short months, you wouldn't be a coward.
              As for Christmas in Cambodia, his people said he got the date
              wrong.
              \_ Stop with the "four short months".  He did two tours.
                 \_ While the four months were relatively short, he did his
                    job, and lucked out with three scratches for three purple
                    hearts.  If I were one of those guys, I'd be happy.
              \_ if the dumb fuck doesnt know when Xmas is, then he
                shouldn't be our president
                \_ Troll.  He never said he didn't know when Christmas was, he
                   said he didn't know what day it happened.
                   \_ it was "seered" in his mind that it was Xmas
                   \_ it was a "life changing" moment in his life, so much
                     so that he talked about it in front of Congress
                     so much so that he doesn't know what day xmas is?
                \_ I believe it is an exaggerated war story.  His people have
                   since said he was near Cambodia during Christmas, and in
                   Cambodia in January.  In his mind, he thought, what the hey,
                   I was doing the missions, I was in Cambodia under fire from
                   both sides, and it makes a better story to say Christmas.
                   \_ That's fine if you're telling it to your grandkids.
                      But don't you think telling it to congress under
                      oath is kinda dumb?
                      \_ Only if you were testifying on precise dates of when
                         U.S. soldiers were in Cambodia.
                         \_ So lying is ok as long as you weren't asked a
                            direct question on the subject?  Okie Dokie!
                            \_ I don't think this is lying, just as much as
                               people say GW Bush is a liar.  Kerry was
                               mistaken, and at worst, exaggerated -- lying
                               is something else.  Bush was mistaken, and
                               at worst, misled the American people.
                            \_ Getting an unimportant detail (the exact date)
                               wrong does not make you a liar.  It may make you
                               sloppy or forgetful, but not a liar.
                               \_ Come on guys, you know you're just
                                  blowing smoke now.
                                  \_ No, actually, I believe he helped the CIA,
                                     including a drop-off/pick-up in Cambodia.
                                     The only question is Christmas, and we've
                                     already established he wasn't there then.
                \_ I have nothing against people trying to get out of
                   'nam.  Just don't act like some kind of hero because of
                    it.
                   \_ He drove his split into enemy fire and personally
                      pulled aboard a fellow soldier while exposed.
                \_ It still hasn't been documented he even went to
                   Cambodia.
                   \_ Hell, we still say we never had ANY troops in cambodia.
                      \_ That's patently false.
              \_ I don't have a problem with Kerry using the 3-purple-heart
                 rule.  I think there are some legitimate questions about it
                 that haven't been answered, and I get irritated that most of
                 the responses are to (1) label it as a troll and dismiss it,
                 or (2) use a strawman argument. -emarkp
                 \_ The first time it was posted, it was interesting.  I'll even
                    grant a second and a third time.  However, the repeated
                    posting of a topic without any new information simply for
                    the purposes of encouraging people to yell at one another
                    is textbook trolling.
                    \_ no no no.  you don't understand.  when emarkp decides
                       that 3/4's of the motd is "noise" and increases
                       SNR by deleting all of it he's being a responsible
                       citizen.  When someone outside of the motd brownshirt
                       brigade gets tired of reading the *same* fucking
                       thing every day for three weeks we're being closed
                       minded.  get it straight.
                       \_ And there's the predictable anonymous strawman
                          argument.  Thanks for the example. -emarkp
        \_ i keep posting it to show how vicious and vile the
           extreme right can be, sorry
           \_ Why do you hate America?
           \_ It isn't extreme if it's true.
        \_ Because they ask a lot of unanswered questions.  Censoring them
           won't make the questions go away.  It only makes it look like
           Kerry has a critical weakness you're trying to hide.  I assume
           you're the one who censors it given your comment.  I've never posted
           a bananasplit link and haven't seen that many.  I think you spend too
           much time on this.
           \_ when did you stop beating your wife?
              \_ I think you meant to ask the OP this.
        \_ Because work is boring.
        \_ Vietnam vets were spit on, called 'baby killers' and generally
           villified for fighting in a war in which South Vietnam was
           free until the North invaded again.  Kerry LED the
           appeaser crowd and effectively negotiated for the North
           Vietnamese.  He is a traitor, pure and simple.  All of his
           appeasement rhetoric was proven completely wrong and the
           Vietnamese, veterans, and Cambodians paid the price for the
           behavior he exemplified.
           \_ The "vietnam veterans were spit on" urban legend really needs its
              own snopes page.  Its true that there were specific instances of
              such abuse, but the general case is the opposite - most veterans
              were welcomed home with open arms.  This meme has perpetuated
              itself rather well, probably because there are people on both
              sides of the issue that stand to gain from grandstanding on it.
2004/8/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32936 Activity:insanely high
8/16    Question for soda liberals regarding taxing inheritance.
        The rationale, as I understand it, for taxing inheritance goes as
        follows: "it is not fair that some talentless, unlikeable shmuck has it
        easy in life because their parents were rich, while others, much
        smarter, people have to work hard for everything and still perhaps not
        be as wealthy in the end."  Assume I agree with this.  Let's consider a
        related kind of unfairness.  Some people are born more talented than
        others.  For programmers, being gifted can often translate into orders
        of magnitude difference in performance.  In some sense, this is as
        unfair as being born into money -- it's a complete lottery that
        occasionally rewards unscrupulous shmucks, etc.  Would you support
        tax-on-talent?  Also, (as a purely theoretical add-on) assuming we had
        the technology to do 'talent redistribution', would you support it on
        the same grounds of fairness as income redistribution?
          -- ilyas
        \_ people who make money based on their talent get taxed on it.
           what a stupid premise.  -tom
           \_ Sure but talent brings less tangible benefits -- the respect of
              your peers, academic recognition, etc.  Same with things like
              attractiveness, having perfect pitch, etc.  Perhaps same with
              things like being a white male in american society.
              Does a certain equalization not seem in order, on grounds of
              fairness? -- ilyas
              \_ look, I'm sorry you got stuck with that brain, but really
                 there's nothing that can be done about it.  -tom
                 \_w00t!  Go tom!
              \_ [ ad hominem deleted ]
              \_ you mean like all the promotions, respect and recognition
                 John Nash got?  Talent alone desn't get you shit.  I've
                 seen some pretty brilliant people basically waste away
                 because  that's all they had.  This is fundamentally different
                 from simply being born into the right family in that to
                 get rich from talent always requires some effort.
                 \_ Nash's was a sad story with a relatively happy ending.
              \_ Tom's point is succinct and exact. Everything below it
                 is blather. Kill this thread now, because you have been
                 rebutted.
                 \_ I agree.  One thing that can be added to the discussion
                    is the well-known American notion of the safety net, which
                    is supposed to provide hard-working individuals in
                    hard times with something to live by.
        \_ fairness is just part of it.  resources should be managed by more
           capable and hardworking people.  you don't want it to be like good
           king passing throne to idiot lazy son.  why do you keep asking
           these very basic questions.
           \_ They may be basic to you, but they are not basic to me.  I will
              ask about reasons other than fairness some other time.  I am
              interested in fairness today.  I did hear fairness given as a
              justification for income redistribution in general, and for
                                \_ wealth redistribution
              inheritance tax in particular.  Thus, I am curious how far this
              commitment to fairness goes.  -- ilyas
              \_ Simply put, material things, yes.  Innate qualities, no.
                 Also, harm to one person is only done to benefit another.
                 Making me blind will not help a blind person.
                 \_ Ok, but assume you were smart and another person was dumb,
                    and there was a way to 'suck your smart out' and give some
                    of it to the dumb person, so now both of you are 'average.'
                    Will you support that?  Also you not being as dumb as the
                    other guy _is_ hurting him, since you can compete more
                    effectively for things he wants (jobs, mates, etc.) -- ilyas
                    \_ I *am* my intelligence.  I am not my inheritance.
           \_ ilyas just wants to lead dumb people into arguing with him by
              creating arguments based upon false dichotomies.
        \_ Oh boy, here we go again.
        \_ IMO, this question should be written with less of a sense that op
           is superior to potential responders, e.g.:
           "Tax on inheritance (some people inherit money, some don't).
            Tax on talent (some people inherit talent, some don't).
            How can you support one and not the other?"
           \_ Where did you get this from?  I don't consider myself superior to
              responders, otherwise I wouldn't try to debate.  Debate has to be
              between equals or it's not a debate but a lecture.  -- ilyas
              \_ Then why does it sound like a lecture, although it is
                 intended as debate? (rhetorical question)
                 \_ I am asking questions, not normally a part of a lecture.
                    Would you feel more at ease if I used broken english next
                    time like Chicom troll? -- ilyas
                    \_ Socratic method.  It is a style which sounds like it
                       is coming out of a classroom, with you as the
                       instructor, does it not?
                       \_ You know, your short version is socratic by that
                          reasoning.  Maybe you just don't like to read long
                          paragraphs. -- ilyas
                          \_ ilyas, please argue in good faith, that is,
                             recognize the merits of what other individuals
                             are pointing out to you.  Be humble.  Don't
                             sound like you know it all, especially on
                             something that's debatable.  I know you're
                             talking to the liberals, but please try.
                             \_ Like one of tom's clever zingers above? -- ilyas
                                \_ His first post was fine.  The part about the
                                   brain, well, that WAS on a personal level.
                                   \_ Right, so let's compare.  What _could_
                                      have been said: 'I believe unfairness
                                      due to talent is remedied appropriately
                                      by taxation, and no other remedy is
                                      needed' and/or 'integrity of the self is
                                      more important than fiscal fairness.'
                                      Instead I get a bunch of personal shit.
                                      Why are you lecturing ME about how _I_
                                      sound.  Go lecture tom and the liberal
                                      goonsquad about arguing in good faith.
                                      You can say what you will about how
                                      I argue, but I at least try to stay
                                      civil.  -- ilyas
                                      \_ I argue that anyone would get a
                                         virulent response if they posted with
                                         "question for soda liberals" with an
                                         intention to compare inheritance taxes
                                         with a talent tax.  It makes us all
                                         sound stupid, like we can't get the
                                         obvious similarity between the two,
                                         when in fact there is a substantive
                                         difference.
                                         \_ Right, why don't you channel your
                                            concern for the quality of motd
                                            posts into where it's needed most.
                                              -- ilyas
                    hard times with something to live on.
        \_ You mistake the argument. It's not that those inheriting are
           unworthy, but successive generations can create a concentration of
           money which is akin to inheriting political power. This is (or was)
           inconsistant with American ideals. Isn't it better that the wealth
           of individuals be based on their individual talents, acumen, luck,
           and work ethic? Besides even with taxes, families are left far from
           destitute. In addition, vast wealth is made on the backs of a stable

           government and the goodwill of the public. Redistibuting that wealth
           after the death of that recipient of public graciousness will
           promote the betterment of Society in general, and, through our
           government, offer a chance for other dynamic individuals to succeed
           and advance our society as a whole. Talent, unlike income or wealth,
           cannot be accurately measured or determined from one point of time
           to another leading to a completely subjective scale. As a point of
           taxation, it would be impossible to use as a measure, thus unfair.
           \- this touches on some deep questions in political philosophy.
              you may wish to look up "wilt chamberlain argument" and
              read "anarchy state and utopia" and the article "the procedural
              republic and the unencumbered self". my short version of the
              "problem with inquity" is that people change the rules of the
              game and in some cases equality seem more more desireable
              than efficientcy ... it's is ok to pay the talented programmer
              more, but should he be given a priority in a heart transplant?
              --psb
              \_ "Only if it's me or someone I know" is the problem answer.
           \_ Vast wealth does not require a stable government or the good
              will of the public.  If it did then only peaceful democracies
              would have rich people.
              \_ This is a stupid (and fallacious) argument.
                 \_ That wasn't even a good dodge.  Your reply is useless and
                    makes no counter point at all.  If it was really so
                    stupid and fallacious you should be able to trivially
                    refute it in the space you used to descend to the personal.
           \_ Alright, first thank you for a good reply.  Second, let's look at
              the situation using your argument.  'Talent' is clearly an
              inherited thing, although its inherited through a less
              deterministic mechanism than money, etc.  Talent can also cause
              you to make more money, possibly very quickly.  Money can be
              used as a way of obtaining political power.  Does this not mean
              that simple genetic inheritance of traits useful in modern
              society is contrary to the American ideal of prohibiting the
              inheritance of political power (although admittedly in a less
              direct way than inheriting money). -- ilyas
              \_ [your wish is my command]
              \_ You are selectively taking one part of his argument
                 and hammering on that, while overlooking the rest.
                 Is there any precedent for taxing of intangable assets
                 like knowledge? Do you get taxed if you learn something
                 from reading a book?
                 \_ Dude, I am not even disagreeing with him.  I just want to
                    know where he stands.  If he thinks talent is against
                    American ideals, that's interesting.  If he thinks
                    talent is different from money in this respect, that's
                    also interesting.  Why is everything about violence with
                    you?  Relax.  We are having a nice chat. -- ilyas
                    \_ "I'm calmer than you are, Dude." Seriously, what's
                        your answer to my question, Mr. "I always debate
                        in good faith?" Taxation of inheritence is an obvious
                        extension of taxation of other forms of income. What
                        would be an analog to taxation of talent? What is an
                        example when some similar intangible asset is taxed?
              \_ As stated, talent may or may not be inherited and may or may
                 be a learned trait. However, the American ideal does not
                 FORCE inheritants to follow in the steps of their parents.
                 Not all of the talented have the desire, will, luck, or work
                 ethic to find monetary or political success using their
                 talents. This make it a fallacy to tax talent before some form
                 of success and assumes that even a successful use of talent
                 automatically leads to monetary success. Taxation of assumed
                 talent leads to a tyranny of those who "judge" and makes
                 sons and daughters slaves to their parents' legacy. This
                 belies the judgement of individuals on their own merits, while
                 not always socially possible, but held as an American ideal.
        \_ it's easy to put a price tag on an inherited house; it's harder
           to put a price tag on talent.  Sometimes the value of "talent"
           is negative -- e.g. if you accept that "talent" is correlated
           with a higher risk of suicide.  Would Alan Turing owe money
           to the government, or does he deserve a refund?  -- misha.
           \_ I am not sure the value of Turing's talent is negative... and
              he surely didn't end up like he did because he was talented, but
              because he was gay (and the UK gvt were assmonkeys).  It's true
              that it's hard to put a value on
              talent, but let's say we could, and let's say its usually
              positive (both big assumptions). -- ilyas
              \_ I do not agree with your assumptions.  I do not see how
                 you can defend any specific tax amount -- e.g. in Turing's
                 case.  -- misha.
                 \_ You may have noticed that this isn't an entirely practical
                    question to begin with.  I am curious about an underlying
                    moral commitment, so I am asking about a non-real situation
                    where we _had_ a way to accurately determine value.  If
                    you don't like that setup, how about sticking a big alarm
                    in smart people's ear, and weights on graceful people's
                    legs, like in that Kurt Vonnegut story, so we get a level
                    playing field?  I am curious, ultimately, about where the
                    quest for a level playing field ends, and boundaries
                    (be they for property, integrity of the self, etc.) begin.
                      -- ilyas
                    \_ I would argue that many in the far left ARE in
                       favor of an inherited talent tax, although they
                       wouldn't put it that way. How much education your
                       parents had is taken into account in Affirmitive
                       action stuff, since it's true statistically that
                       people who's parents are educated will tend to be
                       educated themselves.
                       \_ That seems grossly unfair.  My family makes sure
                          to send all their kids to the best schools they
                          can no matter how much it hurts the rest of the
                          family so it seems only right to take race into
                          account when deciding things like FA.
                    \_ Assuming a perfect method of measuring talent, there
                       should be no way of forcing individuals to exploit that
                       talent against their will. Comparing money to talent as
                       a concept is flawed. It's force vs. potential energy.
                       The waste of talent, while tragic, is not enough to
                       destroy an individual's rights. Vonnegut takes the
                       wrong extreme POV. Instead of disadvantaging the
                       talented, society should aid the disadvantaged.
        \_ Liberals are in favor of inheritance tax as long as they don't
           have to pay it.  For example: Ted Kennedy.
2004/8/16-17 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/OS, Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:32937 Activity:moderate
8/16    Why does it always take apple a couple weeks after realsing a system
        upgrade before posting the sha digest for the download?  -- still
        waiting for 10.3.5
        \_ FWIW, people using Software Update (post 07-12-2002) does have
           the benefit of cryptographic signature verification.
        http://www.macmegasite.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=228
        http://www.macmegasite.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=228
           \_ Ever since it is released, people on macintouch and macfixit
              have complained S.U. screws the system and recommend download
              directly the (combo if possible) updater.  They never offered
              a reason for this but I followed it just to be safe.
              \_ I use SU on my G5, and all is well with my computer. YMMV.
2004/8/16 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:32938 Activity:very high
8/16    Some douche changed the password for the csuamotd nytimes account
        because he said he didn't like political threads.  They're not going
        away and you just inconvenianced a lot of people.  Where do you live?
        I'd like to piss in your swimming pool.
        \_ if you figure out who it is, post their name.
                \_ I second that.
        \_ Is there a "I forgot my password, please email it" option?
           \_ Yes, and it will probably go to motd@csua.berkeley.edu
           \_ Yes, and it will probably go to motd@csua.berkeley.ed
2004/8/16 [Recreation/Humor] UID:32939 Activity:high
8/16    Please munge the motd only when it's funny, and please restrict it
        to one inane thread at a time.  Thank you.
        \_ The problem is they think they *are* being funny when the munging
           is funny about 1 in 10 times.  Don't encourage them.
2004/8/16 [Recreation/Pets] UID:32940 Activity:high
8/16    psb, tell us about the birds!
        \_ and the bees!
           \_ You really want to learn about the birds and the bees from
              partha?  Try http://www.whitehouse.com instead.
2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32941 Activity:nil
8/16    Aluminum is the most rocking badass element ever.  you can go
        ahead and stick your silicon where the sun don't shine because
        Aluminum rocks my fucking world and it's here to stay!
        Woooooooo!
        \_ shopped at Old Navy today eh?
        \_ OMGWTFLOL!  Xenon pwns Aluminum.
           \_ nuts to your xenon!  bicycles! airplanes! superconductivity!
              and a super-kickass oxide!  wo00t!  AND it's easy to machine!
2004/8/16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:32942 Activity:nil
8/16 Dear motd checker, can you please check which idiot is not
        obeying the 80 column/row rule? Secondly, can tom and other
        motd censorers please come back so that they can clean up the
        political trash? Thanks.  \_ Why do you think tom is a censor?
        You really think tom would modify the motd and violate his own
        non-anonymity rule?  And why do you care so much what is on
        the motd?  How come you don't just start censoring it if it
        bothers you so much?  80 columns is a rule?  Really?  Why
        don't you just skip those posts.  You're really taking this
        whole thing too far.
2004/8/16 [ERROR, uid:32943, category id '18005#56.655' has no name! , ] UID:32943 Activity:nil
8/16    http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=134
2004/8/16 [Recreation/Dating] UID:32944 Activity:high
8/16    So does anyone have a link for the supposedly damning material against
        Kobe Bryant's accuser?
        \_ http://www.thenationalenquirer.com
        \_  Kobe is making it okay to rape a slut..
            \_ She made me do it, wearing that tiny skirt! --Asshole
            \_ Because in this he-says-she-says we know the slut is telling
               the truth?
        \_ Is it really normal or reasonable for a woman who has just been
           raped to have sex with other man/men afterward before reporting
           to the police?  What do soda women think of this case?
           \_ Yeah, what do both of you think?
2004/8/16-17 [Computer/Domains, Computer/Networking, Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:32945 Activity:very high
8/16    Thanks for deleting the one interesting thread, shithead.
        \_ ilyas making a fool of himself in public is interesting?
           \_ What's your problem?  He has his opinions, which you may not
              agree with, but he at least rationally backs them up, which is
              more than one can say for the motd nukers.  -John
           \_ Hey, at least you can find comfort in the fact that
              your tax dollars aren't paying for ilyas' education...
              oh, wait.  Damn!
              \_ They paid for a large part of yours if you went to Cal.  Can
                 I get my money back for your education?
        \_ Seriously, can anyone restore it?
           \_ Easily but no because it's old and done.
        \_ There are no interesting threads on the motd.  -- misha.
           \_ Ah, but can you construct a reduction such that any Internet
              discussion thread can be transformed into a thread on the motd,
              therefore proving that no Internet discussion is interesting?
              \_ No.  I've seen a few interesting Internet discussions.
                 None of them were anonymous, though.  -- misha.
                 \_ All of them were anonymous.  You have no idea who the hell
                    anyone is on the internet.
                    \_ that's ridiculous.
                       \_ "No one knows you're a dog on the internet".  So,
                          you have somehow solved one of the fundamental
                          problems of trust and security on the internet:
                          guaranteed correct identification of remote parties.
                          Will you start a business with me?  We can sell it
                          within 6 months and retire.  What is it you know
                          that the rest of the security industry doesn't?
2004/8/16-17 [Computer/SW/Mail, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:32946 Activity:moderate
8/16    Anybody know of an existing program similar to pop-before-smtp
        but for IMAP. It wou use a current IMAP connection to allow
        SMTP relaying from the same IP addres as that IMAP connection?
        \_ it's the same program, just change the regexp used to search
           for login lines and change the logfile watched
           \_ Nope, That does not work. IMAP connections are persistent and
              the users don't login repeatedly if their mail client is
              open.  I need a program that uses the IMAP connection status
              something that would use this sort of data to create a db
              of allowed IP addresses:  netstat --numeric-hosts | grep imap
              If I can't find such software, perhaps I'll have to create it.
              \_ Actually, I've rethought my previous post. I think
                 pop-before-smtp IS the right program, it just needs a
                 feature to not expire an IP address if that user is
                 still connected on the IMAP port. Simply allowing
                 relay for any IP connected to the IMAP port would
                 be a huge spam opening. -op
        \_ the "one true way" is to set up SMTP AUTH.  The better way to
           do pop/imap-before-smtp is to get the pop/imap daemon to update
           your relay tables themselves instead of getting another daemon
           to watch them and clean up afterward.
           \_ Run this over SSL if you want to be especially tidy.  If you
              need help under postfix, I can give you a hand.  I found it to
              be tricky when trying to set up under FreeBSD though (prob. due
              to master.passwd.)  -John
2004/8/16-17 [Uncategorized] UID:32947 Activity:high
8/16    Whatever happened to http://autobahn.org and GamersExtereme on Shattuck?
        \_ They're no longer on Shattuck.
         \_ not true, I walked by the luggage place yesterday and the
            2 buttons still say Baycis/GamersExtreme.
                \_ good thing they last updated their website 7 years ago
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:August:16 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>