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| 2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32916 Activity:nil |
8/15 anyone used Dspam? I was going to install it, but "they" seem not
to have renewed their domain (http://www.nuclearelephant.com
doesn't exactly inspire confidence. |
| 2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32918 Activity:high 80%like:32924 |
8/15 Why does Bush refuse to release his military records?
\_ yermom's record is she's a slut
\_ yer reaching.
\_ Maybe he's waiting until a few days before election to make the best
use of it. That is, if there's nothing wrong with his records.
\_ if Nixon had immediately released the tapes, even with editing
for "national security interests", chances are that he could
have survived Watergate. But instead, he delayed and temporized
encouraging the belief (which just happened to be true anyway)
that there was a coverup.
\_ But nowadays, the media are compliant lapdogs. Just look at
formerly hallowed institution of the WaPo, who brought down
Nixon. Now they have to run apologies after the fact for
their lazy and dishonest WMD reporting. So its in Bush's
best interest just to sit on anything he has that's
embarrassing, because the media will quickly get bored and
return to Bennifer or Laci Peterson or whatever else sells
papers and increases ratings.
\_ And Kerry's as well for his records but no one asks for
those from a man who is running solely on his 4 months
of duty on a swiftboat. |
| 2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32919 Activity:high |
8/15 Excellent! The motd has been stripped of anything interesting enough
to inspire more than a single reply. That leaves us all-clear to
really get it going! (2 points to Ulysses for the 'resume bombing'
comment because sometimes you gotta work with what ya got).
\_ There are two groups responsible for this: jive ass motherfucker
republicans who post exactly the *same* kerry/swiftboat troll
every fucking day, and five ass motherfucer republicans who
every fucking day, and five ass motherfucker republicans who
like to come in every morning at about 9 am pacific time and delete
everything they think is "noise," i.e. almost all politics and
most humor. After weeks and weeks of this eventually people
stop posting *or* reading since there'll be nothing interesting,
and if there is, it'll get deleted by a certain someone within
an hour.
\_ yermom is useful when stripped
\_ is it ecchang?
\_ w00t! It's all the republican's fault!
\_ *laugh* Anything bad: must be republican. Anything republican:
must be bad. I love you guys! BTW, where's the script that
tracks motd edits by political party? Does it check the voter
registration records in real time or just one per election
season? |
| 2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32920 Activity:very high 66%like:32935 |
8/16 Why is the swiftboat troll so persistent?
\_ 3 wounds and you get to go home, Kerry got 3 purple hearts
for 3 scratches and got to go home, but also made himself
and video taped himself to appear like Kennedy in
his reenactments of his wounds. Also, Xmas in Cambodia
depends on your definition of "seered"
\_ If you were in Vietnam and realized that the war was a mistake
(after the burning villages, the carpet bombing, the fact
that four times as many civilians were dying as enemy soldiers,
etc.), you'd be happy to get three scratches for three purple
hearts.
You'd still do your job right while you were there, and when
you left, even after four short months, you wouldn't be a coward.
As for Christmas in Cambodia, his people said he got the date
wrong.
\_ Stop with the "four short months". He did two tours.
\_ if the dumb fuck doesnt know when Xmas is, then he
shouldn't be our president
\_ Troll. He never said he didn't know when Christmas was, he
said he didn't know what day it happened.
\_ it was "seered" in his mind that it was Xmas
\_ it was a "life changing" moment in his life, so much
so that he talked about it in front of Congress
so much so that he doesn't know what day xmas is?
\_ I believe it is an exaggerated war story. His people have
since said he was near Cambodia during Christmas, and in
Cambodia in January. In his mind, he thought, what the hey,
I was doing the missions, I was in Cambodia under fire from
both sides, and it makes a better story to say Christmas.
\_ That's fine if you're telling it to your grandkids.
But don't you think telling it to congress under
oath is kinda dumb?
\_ Only if you were testifying on precise dates of when
U.S. soldiers were in Cambodia.
\_ So lying is ok as long as you weren't asked a
direct question on the subject? Okie Dokie!
\_ I don't think this is lying, just as much as
people say GW Bush is a liar. Kerry was
mistaken, and at worst, exaggerated -- lying
is something else. Bush was mistaken, and
at worst, misled the American people.
\_ Getting an unimportant detail (the exact date)
wrong does not make you a liar. It may make you
sloppy or forgetful, but not a liar.
\_ I have nothing against people trying to get out of
'nam. Just don't act like some kind of hero because of
it.
\_ It still hasn't been documented he even went to
Cambodia.
\_ Hell, we still say we never had ANY troops in cambodia.
\_ I don't have a problem with Kerry using the 3-purple-heart
rule. I think there are some legitimate questions about it
that haven't been answered, and I get irritated that most of
the responses are to (1) label it as a troll and dismiss it,
or (2) use a strawman argument. -emarkp
\_ The first time it was posted, it was interesting. I'll even
grant a second and a third time. However, the repeated
posting of a topic without any new information simply for
the purposes of encouraging people to yell at one another
is textbook trolling.
\_ i keep posting it to show how vicious and vile the
extreme right can be, sorry
\_ Why do you hate America?
\_ It isn't extreme if it's true.
\_ Because they ask a lot of unanswered questions. Censoring them
won't make the questions go away. It only makes it look like
Kerry has a critical weakness you're trying to hide. I assume
you're the one who censors it given your comment. I've never posted
a swiftboat link and haven't seen that many. I think you spend too
much time on this.
\_ when did you stop beating your wife?
\_ I think you meant to ask the OP this.
\_ Because work is boring. |
| 2004/8/16 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:32921 Activity:nil |
8/16 Does anyone know how to turn off Java automatic garbage collection on
java version "1.4.2_01"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.2_01-b06)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.4.2_01-b06, mixed mode)
? -noasyncgc is no longer supported. |
| 2004/8/16 [Politics, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:32922 Activity:nil |
8/16 http://LastWishes.com discuss \_ yermom \_ What is wrong with it? It's a kind program. \_ I was thinking about this the other day-- does soda have any policy regarding dead members? Can I elect someone to get my home dir upon my untimely demise? \_ "This is the biggest con since Genghis!" |
| 2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32923 Activity:nil |
8/16 Chavez declared winner in Venezuela referendum:
link:csua.org/u/8lu (NYTimes, csuamotd/csuamotd)
OTOH, opponents say electronic voting machines tampered with. Anyone
want to take bets on whether or not this is a precursor to the
aftermath of the upcoming US election?
\_ This isn't a third world banana republic like Venezuela. |
| 2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32924 Activity:high 80%like:32918 |
8/16 Why does Kerry refuse to release his military records?
\_ Why doesn't Kerry sic the FBI on protestors?
\_ People always seem to be willing to discuss what Bush hasn't
released his records. I was just wondering why the same
standards don't apply to the war hero. Just because you don't
like the question doesn't mean it's a troll.
\_ that's stupid also. two idiocys don't cancel eachother out,
especially when one is posted less than once a week and the
other is posted more than once a day.
\_ Agreed. The swiftboat troll may hold the record for
persistence.
\_ With enough money and stupidity behind them, these
memes last forever.
\_ NPR reports radio ads on "black" stations calling Kerry
just another "rich, white man" and traced the money
back to...a rich, white Republican. You gotta love it.
I'd promote the Cynosure method of presidental election
if only we could strip the executive branch of any real
power....
\_ Yup, a rich white republican who has been active in
the black community for decades, attends a black
church every week for many years, etc. I'm sure you
are more in touch with them than he is.
\_ Of course is he. Democrats are always more
in tune with the poor black man than any
republican. |
| 2004/8/16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:32925 Activity:high |
8/16 Let's pool our resources and try to get the Bananasplit Troll a new
job, so he doesn't have so much time on his hands. Either that or
a RealDoll or something.
\_ Isn't that making a deal with the terrorist?
\_ Only if someone's afraid of the trolls.
\_ Why do you hate trolls? |
| 2004/8/16 [Computer/SW/Editors] UID:32926 Activity:nil |
8/16 What are the pros/cons of using ctags/etags/cscope? ok thx. |
| 2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32927 Activity:insanely high |
8/16 Why is John a Tom Holub lover?
\_ why don't you ask yermom
\_ Same reason you're a shit-eating knucklehead pillow biter
fucknut. Genetics, I guess. -John
\_ Americans, all guts, nothing else.
\_ Guess that's why all the losers from the lesser nations
want to move there. -John
\_ Only losers like to move to America? Winners move
to Europe?
\_ I think you've misread John's comment rather badly.
\_ The only thing they have in common is some odd sense of self
righteousness about anonymity on the motd. I guess everyone
needs a hobby. |
| 2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32928 Activity:nil |
8/16 Hey, whatever happened to that pizza delivery guy who was
kidnapped and strapped into a bomb? Did they find the guy who
did it?
\_ http://csua.org/u/8m2 (dated Aug 11, 2004)
\_ This is totally unrelated, but the site has a short
registration before getting to the article. I wrote that
I was a 61 year old woman from Kansas. Do they actually
expect to get good results with this stuff? |
| 2004/8/16-19 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:32929 Activity:high |
8/19 So when can Google be shorted? Is that possible already? What
about options?
\_ As soon as it starts trading. You can't short or option it when
there's no price.
\_ I thought the SEC imposes a waiting period.
\_ Why do you think Google should be shorted? -tom
\_ Very high P/E ratio, uncertain prospects for growth, and a lot
of privately-held stock remaining to be sold. -!op
\_ They have been trying their best to diversify, but YHOO is a
veteran at this. At or below YHOO within 6 months. -!op
\_ In what way is GOOG above YHOO now? -tom
\_ share price, buzz, YHOO is time-tested
\_ which is completely meaningless. -tom
\_ to the knowledgable investor, which would be great
in a market driven by said investors.
\_ Here's some news for you: people who don't know
the difference between share price and market
cap are not the ones driving the market. -tom
\_ is this how it should be, how it is, or
somewhere in between?
\_ Ask BRKA. -tom
\_ don't ask an exception to the rule for
objective advice. In any case, opening
price is a big deal for IPOs. Otherwise
there wouldn't be so many articles
in major publications written about it.
Follow your own axiom 1. I even feel
stupid writing GOOG goes down because
it wants to match YHOO, but I can't
help but feel it will end up being true.
\_ You feel stupid because it's a stupid
thing to say. You want to bet on
GOOG vs. YHOO? -tom
\_ No, for personal reasons, I won't
bet in this specific instance.
(But I would still put money
on YHOO vs. GOOG. And while I
agree it *feels* like a "stupid
thing to say", I still say it
will probably end up being true.)
\_ Okay, okay, you got me. P/E between
YHOO and GOOG are similar. I thought
they were different. I am lame.
Revised, it doesn't make sense if
GOOG drops below YHOO in share price --
it could happen, but only if investors
are dumb *and* GOOD really messes it up.
\_ Google treats options as an
expense and books them as such.
Yahoo does not. Want to run your
numbers again, grasshopper?
\_ Hey, I have no credibility now,
stop bothering me. Go bother tom.
\_ Short YHOO, too. They are both
overvalued.
\_ according to what metrics?
\_ So forth and speculate.
\_ This doesn't answer your q, but GOOG peaked a couple hours ago ...
\_ A long slow peak at 104 and now settling around 100...
\_ I say $80 within a week! $30 within six months!
Rationale? GOOG wants to be at or below YHOO in price per shr.
GOOG owners want GOOG to go up from $100, of course.
\_ Care to put your money where your mouth is?
\_ So when can Google be shorted? Is it possible already?
\_ why don't you just try it? I personally lack the
mindset for shorting. All the shorts I picked
eventually turned out to be right (eg. shorted
PMCS at above 20), but I always gave up too early.
\_ You've got 30 (calendar) days to wait. Right now, I suspect that
that the extra 20% of stocks that were held back from the IPO are
going to slowly start flooding the market dropping the price. |
| 2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32930 Activity:high |
8/16 Washington Post columnist: "Who's the Flip-Flopper?"
http://csua.org/u/8m1
"Bush would not negotiate with North Korea. He did. Flip-flop.
Bush told the United Nations to butt out of Iraq. Now he wants it in.
Flip-flop. ...
But it is the areas in which Bush's convictions have not changed that
are the most troubling, and this includes a religiosity that comforts
him in his intellectual inertness and granite-like beliefs that are
impervious to logic, such as his tax policy and his relentless march
to war in Iraq."
\_ In a nonpartisan spirit, I'd just like to mention how
the timing of this sort of thing mirrors simple playground
politics: "you're wishy-washy!" (wait wait wait) "no YOU are!"
(*bell rings*) "damn."
\_ Your characterization is significantly more cynical than
"non-partisan".
\_ In a nonpartisan spirit, I'd just like to mention how GW Bush
is perhaps the most inarticulate U.S. President of the last
century.
Now here's the partisan spin by press secretary McClellan:
"... just shows even the most straightforward and plain-spoken
people misspeak. But the American people know this president
speaks with clarity and conviction, and the terrorists know by
his actions he means it."
\_ Is our children learning?
\_ "They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country
and our people, and neither do we."
\_ "Karen is with us, a West Texas girl, just like me!"
\_ Either you or this columnist should really quote where it's clear
that "Bush would not negotiate with NK"
\_ I'll assume you're serious about this, and I won't need to quote.
The Bush administration's whole stink was that Clinton negotiated
and appeased; Bush would not, and would only expect NK to back
down without any guarantee of foreign aid. Bush realized that
he couldn't count on South Korea to side with him on an
aggressive posture, and in the mean time, NK had probably built
one or two nukes. Bush negotiated. |
| 2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32931 Activity:high |
8/16 Orson Scott Card rambling book review/essay, that eventually comes
to an interesting synthesis between republican and Democrat views
on the war on terror.
http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-08-08-1.html
\_ Hi emarkp!
\_ WRong, but nice try. -op
\_ Indeed, I hadn't even seen this article yet (though I read the
column, the current one was just posted). -emarkp
\_ Wait, let me get my hat and my magic stones!
\_ Hi aaron!
\_ Hi ilyas! |
| 2004/8/16 [ERROR, uid:32932, category id '18005#14.1637' has no name! , ] UID:32932 Activity:nil |
8/16 Switching from the banana split stuff to Kerry's Senate record, see the
actual legislation he's sponsored:
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=134 |
| 2004/8/16 [Recreation/Computer/Games, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32933 Activity:very high |
8/16 Is it just me or do the Olympic Games in Greece this year seem
to really suck? It seems like nobody is really interested in them
and the stands are all empty. There doesn't seem to be a lot of
promotion either. I remember the games back in 2000 sure seemed
a bit more exciting. And it seems like the US, Germany, Russia,
traditional Olympic powerhouses are really sucking this year.
\_ The USA vs Puerto Rico basketball game was most exciting game!
\_ Why do you hate America?
\_ "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are
we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our
country and our people, and neither do we."
\_ Did anyone notice that on the 'Al-Qaeda hard drive'
they refered to the CIA and Mossad as 'Foreign
Competitors'?
\_ I don't get your point.
\_ It would be more exciting if something blew up.
\_ I'd be interested except I hate the coverage. I don't have a Tivo
so it's basically unwatchable. It feels like half the time is
spent with commercials, theme music, and random commentators. |
| 2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Finance/Investment] UID:32934 Activity:nil |
8/16 Yermom: discuss
\_ Yo mama so dumb she thinks posting the same troll every day for
weeks on end will actually change someones vote.
\_ Yo mama smells so bad, Saddam tried to drop her on the Kurds! |
| 2004/8/16 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32935 Activity:nil 66%like:32920 |
8/16 Why is the bananasplit troll so persistent?
\_ 3 wounds and you get to go home, Kerry got 3 purple hearts
for 3 scratches and got to go home, but also made himself
and video taped himself to appear like Kennedy in
his reenactments of his wounds. Also, Xmas in Cambodia
depends on your definition of "seered"
\_ If you were in Vietnam and realized that the war was a mistake
(after the burning villages, the carpet bombing, the fact
that four times as many civilians were dying as enemy soldiers,
etc.), you'd be happy to get three scratches for three purple
hearts.
You'd still do your job right while you were there, and when
you left, even after four short months, you wouldn't be a coward.
As for Christmas in Cambodia, his people said he got the date
wrong.
\_ Stop with the "four short months". He did two tours.
\_ While the four months were relatively short, he did his
job, and lucked out with three scratches for three purple
hearts. If I were one of those guys, I'd be happy.
\_ if the dumb fuck doesnt know when Xmas is, then he
shouldn't be our president
\_ Troll. He never said he didn't know when Christmas was, he
said he didn't know what day it happened.
\_ it was "seered" in his mind that it was Xmas
\_ it was a "life changing" moment in his life, so much
so that he talked about it in front of Congress
so much so that he doesn't know what day xmas is?
\_ I believe it is an exaggerated war story. His people have
since said he was near Cambodia during Christmas, and in
Cambodia in January. In his mind, he thought, what the hey,
I was doing the missions, I was in Cambodia under fire from
both sides, and it makes a better story to say Christmas.
\_ That's fine if you're telling it to your grandkids.
But don't you think telling it to congress under
oath is kinda dumb?
\_ Only if you were testifying on precise dates of when
U.S. soldiers were in Cambodia.
\_ So lying is ok as long as you weren't asked a
direct question on the subject? Okie Dokie!
\_ I don't think this is lying, just as much as
people say GW Bush is a liar. Kerry was
mistaken, and at worst, exaggerated -- lying
is something else. Bush was mistaken, and
at worst, misled the American people.
\_ Getting an unimportant detail (the exact date)
wrong does not make you a liar. It may make you
sloppy or forgetful, but not a liar.
\_ Come on guys, you know you're just
blowing smoke now.
\_ No, actually, I believe he helped the CIA,
including a drop-off/pick-up in Cambodia.
The only question is Christmas, and we've
already established he wasn't there then.
\_ I have nothing against people trying to get out of
'nam. Just don't act like some kind of hero because of
it.
\_ He drove his split into enemy fire and personally
pulled aboard a fellow soldier while exposed.
\_ It still hasn't been documented he even went to
Cambodia.
\_ Hell, we still say we never had ANY troops in cambodia.
\_ That's patently false.
\_ I don't have a problem with Kerry using the 3-purple-heart
rule. I think there are some legitimate questions about it
that haven't been answered, and I get irritated that most of
the responses are to (1) label it as a troll and dismiss it,
or (2) use a strawman argument. -emarkp
\_ The first time it was posted, it was interesting. I'll even
grant a second and a third time. However, the repeated
posting of a topic without any new information simply for
the purposes of encouraging people to yell at one another
is textbook trolling.
\_ no no no. you don't understand. when emarkp decides
that 3/4's of the motd is "noise" and increases
SNR by deleting all of it he's being a responsible
citizen. When someone outside of the motd brownshirt
brigade gets tired of reading the *same* fucking
thing every day for three weeks we're being closed
minded. get it straight.
\_ And there's the predictable anonymous strawman
argument. Thanks for the example. -emarkp
\_ i keep posting it to show how vicious and vile the
extreme right can be, sorry
\_ Why do you hate America?
\_ It isn't extreme if it's true.
\_ Because they ask a lot of unanswered questions. Censoring them
won't make the questions go away. It only makes it look like
Kerry has a critical weakness you're trying to hide. I assume
you're the one who censors it given your comment. I've never posted
a bananasplit link and haven't seen that many. I think you spend too
much time on this.
\_ when did you stop beating your wife?
\_ I think you meant to ask the OP this.
\_ Because work is boring.
\_ Vietnam vets were spit on, called 'baby killers' and generally
villified for fighting in a war in which South Vietnam was
free until the North invaded again. Kerry LED the
appeaser crowd and effectively negotiated for the North
Vietnamese. He is a traitor, pure and simple. All of his
appeasement rhetoric was proven completely wrong and the
Vietnamese, veterans, and Cambodians paid the price for the
behavior he exemplified.
\_ The "vietnam veterans were spit on" urban legend really needs its
own snopes page. Its true that there were specific instances of
such abuse, but the general case is the opposite - most veterans
were welcomed home with open arms. This meme has perpetuated
itself rather well, probably because there are people on both
sides of the issue that stand to gain from grandstanding on it. |
| 2004/8/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32936 Activity:insanely high |
8/16 Question for soda liberals regarding taxing inheritance.
The rationale, as I understand it, for taxing inheritance goes as
follows: "it is not fair that some talentless, unlikeable shmuck has it
easy in life because their parents were rich, while others, much
smarter, people have to work hard for everything and still perhaps not
be as wealthy in the end." Assume I agree with this. Let's consider a
related kind of unfairness. Some people are born more talented than
others. For programmers, being gifted can often translate into orders
of magnitude difference in performance. In some sense, this is as
unfair as being born into money -- it's a complete lottery that
occasionally rewards unscrupulous shmucks, etc. Would you support
tax-on-talent? Also, (as a purely theoretical add-on) assuming we had
the technology to do 'talent redistribution', would you support it on
the same grounds of fairness as income redistribution?
-- ilyas
\_ people who make money based on their talent get taxed on it.
what a stupid premise. -tom
\_ Sure but talent brings less tangible benefits -- the respect of
your peers, academic recognition, etc. Same with things like
attractiveness, having perfect pitch, etc. Perhaps same with
things like being a white male in american society.
Does a certain equalization not seem in order, on grounds of
fairness? -- ilyas
\_ look, I'm sorry you got stuck with that brain, but really
there's nothing that can be done about it. -tom
\_w00t! Go tom!
\_ [ ad hominem deleted ]
\_ you mean like all the promotions, respect and recognition
John Nash got? Talent alone desn't get you shit. I've
seen some pretty brilliant people basically waste away
because that's all they had. This is fundamentally different
from simply being born into the right family in that to
get rich from talent always requires some effort.
\_ Nash's was a sad story with a relatively happy ending.
\_ Tom's point is succinct and exact. Everything below it
is blather. Kill this thread now, because you have been
rebutted.
\_ I agree. One thing that can be added to the discussion
is the well-known American notion of the safety net, which
is supposed to provide hard-working individuals in
hard times with something to live by.
\_ fairness is just part of it. resources should be managed by more
capable and hardworking people. you don't want it to be like good
king passing throne to idiot lazy son. why do you keep asking
these very basic questions.
\_ They may be basic to you, but they are not basic to me. I will
ask about reasons other than fairness some other time. I am
interested in fairness today. I did hear fairness given as a
justification for income redistribution in general, and for
\_ wealth redistribution
inheritance tax in particular. Thus, I am curious how far this
commitment to fairness goes. -- ilyas
\_ Simply put, material things, yes. Innate qualities, no.
Also, harm to one person is only done to benefit another.
Making me blind will not help a blind person.
\_ Ok, but assume you were smart and another person was dumb,
and there was a way to 'suck your smart out' and give some
of it to the dumb person, so now both of you are 'average.'
Will you support that? Also you not being as dumb as the
other guy _is_ hurting him, since you can compete more
effectively for things he wants (jobs, mates, etc.) -- ilyas
\_ I *am* my intelligence. I am not my inheritance.
\_ ilyas just wants to lead dumb people into arguing with him by
creating arguments based upon false dichotomies.
\_ Oh boy, here we go again.
\_ IMO, this question should be written with less of a sense that op
is superior to potential responders, e.g.:
"Tax on inheritance (some people inherit money, some don't).
Tax on talent (some people inherit talent, some don't).
How can you support one and not the other?"
\_ Where did you get this from? I don't consider myself superior to
responders, otherwise I wouldn't try to debate. Debate has to be
between equals or it's not a debate but a lecture. -- ilyas
\_ Then why does it sound like a lecture, although it is
intended as debate? (rhetorical question)
\_ I am asking questions, not normally a part of a lecture.
Would you feel more at ease if I used broken english next
time like Chicom troll? -- ilyas
\_ Socratic method. It is a style which sounds like it
is coming out of a classroom, with you as the
instructor, does it not?
\_ You know, your short version is socratic by that
reasoning. Maybe you just don't like to read long
paragraphs. -- ilyas
\_ ilyas, please argue in good faith, that is,
recognize the merits of what other individuals
are pointing out to you. Be humble. Don't
sound like you know it all, especially on
something that's debatable. I know you're
talking to the liberals, but please try.
\_ Like one of tom's clever zingers above? -- ilyas
\_ His first post was fine. The part about the
brain, well, that WAS on a personal level.
\_ Right, so let's compare. What _could_
have been said: 'I believe unfairness
due to talent is remedied appropriately
by taxation, and no other remedy is
needed' and/or 'integrity of the self is
more important than fiscal fairness.'
Instead I get a bunch of personal shit.
Why are you lecturing ME about how _I_
sound. Go lecture tom and the liberal
goonsquad about arguing in good faith.
You can say what you will about how
I argue, but I at least try to stay
civil. -- ilyas
\_ I argue that anyone would get a
virulent response if they posted with
"question for soda liberals" with an
intention to compare inheritance taxes
with a talent tax. It makes us all
sound stupid, like we can't get the
obvious similarity between the two,
when in fact there is a substantive
difference.
\_ Right, why don't you channel your
concern for the quality of motd
posts into where it's needed most.
-- ilyas
hard times with something to live on.
\_ You mistake the argument. It's not that those inheriting are
unworthy, but successive generations can create a concentration of
money which is akin to inheriting political power. This is (or was)
inconsistant with American ideals. Isn't it better that the wealth
of individuals be based on their individual talents, acumen, luck,
and work ethic? Besides even with taxes, families are left far from
destitute. In addition, vast wealth is made on the backs of a stable
government and the goodwill of the public. Redistibuting that wealth
after the death of that recipient of public graciousness will
promote the betterment of Society in general, and, through our
government, offer a chance for other dynamic individuals to succeed
and advance our society as a whole. Talent, unlike income or wealth,
cannot be accurately measured or determined from one point of time
to another leading to a completely subjective scale. As a point of
taxation, it would be impossible to use as a measure, thus unfair.
\- this touches on some deep questions in political philosophy.
you may wish to look up "wilt chamberlain argument" and
read "anarchy state and utopia" and the article "the procedural
republic and the unencumbered self". my short version of the
"problem with inquity" is that people change the rules of the
game and in some cases equality seem more more desireable
than efficientcy ... it's is ok to pay the talented programmer
more, but should he be given a priority in a heart transplant?
--psb
\_ "Only if it's me or someone I know" is the problem answer.
\_ Vast wealth does not require a stable government or the good
will of the public. If it did then only peaceful democracies
would have rich people.
\_ This is a stupid (and fallacious) argument.
\_ That wasn't even a good dodge. Your reply is useless and
makes no counter point at all. If it was really so
stupid and fallacious you should be able to trivially
refute it in the space you used to descend to the personal.
\_ Alright, first thank you for a good reply. Second, let's look at
the situation using your argument. 'Talent' is clearly an
inherited thing, although its inherited through a less
deterministic mechanism than money, etc. Talent can also cause
you to make more money, possibly very quickly. Money can be
used as a way of obtaining political power. Does this not mean
that simple genetic inheritance of traits useful in modern
society is contrary to the American ideal of prohibiting the
inheritance of political power (although admittedly in a less
direct way than inheriting money). -- ilyas
\_ [your wish is my command]
\_ You are selectively taking one part of his argument
and hammering on that, while overlooking the rest.
Is there any precedent for taxing of intangable assets
like knowledge? Do you get taxed if you learn something
from reading a book?
\_ Dude, I am not even disagreeing with him. I just want to
know where he stands. If he thinks talent is against
American ideals, that's interesting. If he thinks
talent is different from money in this respect, that's
also interesting. Why is everything about violence with
you? Relax. We are having a nice chat. -- ilyas
\_ "I'm calmer than you are, Dude." Seriously, what's
your answer to my question, Mr. "I always debate
in good faith?" Taxation of inheritence is an obvious
extension of taxation of other forms of income. What
would be an analog to taxation of talent? What is an
example when some similar intangible asset is taxed?
\_ As stated, talent may or may not be inherited and may or may
be a learned trait. However, the American ideal does not
FORCE inheritants to follow in the steps of their parents.
Not all of the talented have the desire, will, luck, or work
ethic to find monetary or political success using their
talents. This make it a fallacy to tax talent before some form
of success and assumes that even a successful use of talent
automatically leads to monetary success. Taxation of assumed
talent leads to a tyranny of those who "judge" and makes
sons and daughters slaves to their parents' legacy. This
belies the judgement of individuals on their own merits, while
not always socially possible, but held as an American ideal.
\_ it's easy to put a price tag on an inherited house; it's harder
to put a price tag on talent. Sometimes the value of "talent"
is negative -- e.g. if you accept that "talent" is correlated
with a higher risk of suicide. Would Alan Turing owe money
to the government, or does he deserve a refund? -- misha.
\_ I am not sure the value of Turing's talent is negative... and
he surely didn't end up like he did because he was talented, but
because he was gay (and the UK gvt were assmonkeys). It's true
that it's hard to put a value on
talent, but let's say we could, and let's say its usually
positive (both big assumptions). -- ilyas
\_ I do not agree with your assumptions. I do not see how
you can defend any specific tax amount -- e.g. in Turing's
case. -- misha.
\_ You may have noticed that this isn't an entirely practical
question to begin with. I am curious about an underlying
moral commitment, so I am asking about a non-real situation
where we _had_ a way to accurately determine value. If
you don't like that setup, how about sticking a big alarm
in smart people's ear, and weights on graceful people's
legs, like in that Kurt Vonnegut story, so we get a level
playing field? I am curious, ultimately, about where the
quest for a level playing field ends, and boundaries
(be they for property, integrity of the self, etc.) begin.
-- ilyas
\_ I would argue that many in the far left ARE in
favor of an inherited talent tax, although they
wouldn't put it that way. How much education your
parents had is taken into account in Affirmitive
action stuff, since it's true statistically that
people who's parents are educated will tend to be
educated themselves.
\_ That seems grossly unfair. My family makes sure
to send all their kids to the best schools they
can no matter how much it hurts the rest of the
family so it seems only right to take race into
account when deciding things like FA.
\_ Assuming a perfect method of measuring talent, there
should be no way of forcing individuals to exploit that
talent against their will. Comparing money to talent as
a concept is flawed. It's force vs. potential energy.
The waste of talent, while tragic, is not enough to
destroy an individual's rights. Vonnegut takes the
wrong extreme POV. Instead of disadvantaging the
talented, society should aid the disadvantaged.
\_ Liberals are in favor of inheritance tax as long as they don't
have to pay it. For example: Ted Kennedy. |
| 2004/8/16-17 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/OS, Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:32937 Activity:moderate |
8/16 Why does it always take apple a couple weeks after realsing a system
upgrade before posting the sha digest for the download? -- still
waiting for 10.3.5
\_ FWIW, people using Software Update (post 07-12-2002) does have
the benefit of cryptographic signature verification.
http://www.macmegasite.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=228
http://www.macmegasite.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=228
\_ Ever since it is released, people on macintouch and macfixit
have complained S.U. screws the system and recommend download
directly the (combo if possible) updater. They never offered
a reason for this but I followed it just to be safe.
\_ I use SU on my G5, and all is well with my computer. YMMV. |
| 2004/8/16 [Computer/SW/Unix, Computer/SW/Security] UID:32938 Activity:very high |
8/16 Some douche changed the password for the csuamotd nytimes account
because he said he didn't like political threads. They're not going
away and you just inconvenianced a lot of people. Where do you live?
I'd like to piss in your swimming pool.
\_ if you figure out who it is, post their name.
\_ I second that.
\_ Is there a "I forgot my password, please email it" option?
\_ Yes, and it will probably go to motd@csua.berkeley.edu
\_ Yes, and it will probably go to motd@csua.berkeley.ed |
| 2004/8/16 [Recreation/Humor] UID:32939 Activity:high |
8/16 Please munge the motd only when it's funny, and please restrict it
to one inane thread at a time. Thank you.
\_ The problem is they think they *are* being funny when the munging
is funny about 1 in 10 times. Don't encourage them. |
| 2004/8/16 [Recreation/Pets] UID:32940 Activity:high |
8/16 psb, tell us about the birds!
\_ and the bees!
\_ You really want to learn about the birds and the bees from
partha? Try http://www.whitehouse.com instead. |
| 2004/8/16 [Uncategorized] UID:32941 Activity:nil |
8/16 Aluminum is the most rocking badass element ever. you can go
ahead and stick your silicon where the sun don't shine because
Aluminum rocks my fucking world and it's here to stay!
Woooooooo!
\_ shopped at Old Navy today eh?
\_ OMGWTFLOL! Xenon pwns Aluminum.
\_ nuts to your xenon! bicycles! airplanes! superconductivity!
and a super-kickass oxide! wo00t! AND it's easy to machine! |
| 2004/8/16 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:32942 Activity:nil |
8/16 Dear motd checker, can you please check which idiot is not
obeying the 80 column/row rule? Secondly, can tom and other
motd censorers please come back so that they can clean up the
political trash? Thanks. \_ Why do you think tom is a censor?
You really think tom would modify the motd and violate his own
non-anonymity rule? And why do you care so much what is on
the motd? How come you don't just start censoring it if it
bothers you so much? 80 columns is a rule? Really? Why
don't you just skip those posts. You're really taking this
whole thing too far. |
| 2004/8/16 [ERROR, uid:32943, category id '18005#56.655' has no name! , ] UID:32943 Activity:nil |
8/16 http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=134 |
| 2004/8/16 [Recreation/Dating] UID:32944 Activity:high |
8/16 So does anyone have a link for the supposedly damning material against
Kobe Bryant's accuser?
\_ http://www.thenationalenquirer.com
\_ Kobe is making it okay to rape a slut..
\_ She made me do it, wearing that tiny skirt! --Asshole
\_ Because in this he-says-she-says we know the slut is telling
the truth?
\_ Is it really normal or reasonable for a woman who has just been
raped to have sex with other man/men afterward before reporting
to the police? What do soda women think of this case?
\_ Yeah, what do both of you think? |
| 2004/8/16-17 [Computer/Domains, Computer/Networking, Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:32945 Activity:very high |
8/16 Thanks for deleting the one interesting thread, shithead.
\_ ilyas making a fool of himself in public is interesting?
\_ What's your problem? He has his opinions, which you may not
agree with, but he at least rationally backs them up, which is
more than one can say for the motd nukers. -John
\_ Hey, at least you can find comfort in the fact that
your tax dollars aren't paying for ilyas' education...
oh, wait. Damn!
\_ They paid for a large part of yours if you went to Cal. Can
I get my money back for your education?
\_ Seriously, can anyone restore it?
\_ Easily but no because it's old and done.
\_ There are no interesting threads on the motd. -- misha.
\_ Ah, but can you construct a reduction such that any Internet
discussion thread can be transformed into a thread on the motd,
therefore proving that no Internet discussion is interesting?
\_ No. I've seen a few interesting Internet discussions.
None of them were anonymous, though. -- misha.
\_ All of them were anonymous. You have no idea who the hell
anyone is on the internet.
\_ that's ridiculous.
\_ "No one knows you're a dog on the internet". So,
you have somehow solved one of the fundamental
problems of trust and security on the internet:
guaranteed correct identification of remote parties.
Will you start a business with me? We can sell it
within 6 months and retire. What is it you know
that the rest of the security industry doesn't? |
| 2004/8/16-17 [Computer/SW/Unix, Computer/SW/Mail] UID:32946 Activity:moderate |
8/16 Anybody know of an existing program similar to pop-before-smtp
but for IMAP. It wou use a current IMAP connection to allow
SMTP relaying from the same IP addres as that IMAP connection?
\_ it's the same program, just change the regexp used to search
for login lines and change the logfile watched
\_ Nope, That does not work. IMAP connections are persistent and
the users don't login repeatedly if their mail client is
open. I need a program that uses the IMAP connection status
something that would use this sort of data to create a db
of allowed IP addresses: netstat --numeric-hosts | grep imap
If I can't find such software, perhaps I'll have to create it.
\_ Actually, I've rethought my previous post. I think
pop-before-smtp IS the right program, it just needs a
feature to not expire an IP address if that user is
still connected on the IMAP port. Simply allowing
relay for any IP connected to the IMAP port would
be a huge spam opening. -op
\_ the "one true way" is to set up SMTP AUTH. The better way to
do pop/imap-before-smtp is to get the pop/imap daemon to update
your relay tables themselves instead of getting another daemon
to watch them and clean up afterward.
\_ Run this over SSL if you want to be especially tidy. If you
need help under postfix, I can give you a hand. I found it to
be tricky when trying to set up under FreeBSD though (prob. due
to master.passwd.) -John |
| 2004/8/16-17 [Uncategorized] UID:32947 Activity:high |
8/16 Whatever happened to http://autobahn.org and GamersExtereme on Shattuck? \_ They're no longer on Shattuck. \_ not true, I walked by the luggage place yesterday and the 2 buttons still say Baycis/GamersExtreme. \_ good thing they last updated their website 7 years ago |
| 11/23 |