Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:August:02 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2004/8/2 [ERROR, uid:32621, category id '18005#9.09375' has no name! , ] UID:32621 Activity:high
8/1     Yeah , big bounce!
        http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/01/polls.bounce/index.html
        \_ I'm strongly reminded of last sunday's Boondocks:
           http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/2004/07/25
           \_ Recently Boondocks has been in the same hole as "Tom the
              Dancing Bug."  More interested in being anti-Bush than being
              amusing.
              \_ See, I might think you were reading it, and that you *might*
                 just be a rightwing asshole, but since it hasn't mentioned
                 Bush for a week(except today) I know you don't actually read
                 it.
        \_ Just a note, you may want to wait until Zogby comes out on Tuesday.
           The internals of the Gallup poll make little sense and its widely
           believed to have "issues," particularly in how they calculate
           "likely voters."
2004/8/2 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32622 Activity:nil
8/3     Why is it that, in order to get elected, Kerry seems to think he
        has to pretend to be a republican?  That strike anyone else as wierd?
2004/8/2-3 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:32623 Activity:high
8/3     For anyone who's been having trouble using the Java SSH client on
        the web page, could you please try http://csua.berkeley.edu/new-ssh
        If it works for everyone, I'll make it the default.  --mconst
        \_ Doesn't work through transparent proxies (at least for browsers
           using a proxy.pac.)  To be honest, I also had this with
           MindTerm 2.0 (I guess being able to store proxy values you give
           it would break the sandbox, no?)  -John
        \_ Cut and paste isn't working for me.  Also having problems with
           vi that I didn't have with the old ssh.
           \_ Could you please make sure $TERM is set to vt320?  The new
              ssh sets it automatically on login, but your dotfiles might
              be setting it to something else.  Cut and paste doesn't work
              for me in either ssh client; does it work for you in one but
              not the other?  --mconst
             \_ Cut and paste between ssh windows works in the old ssh
                only.  Cut and paste between ssh window and other window
                doesn't work in either.
             \_ Worked fine for me--shift-insert and control-insert (this
                is on XP)  -John
             \_ Posting from it now, <tab> doesn't work, ditto w/
                copy-paste.  It renders better (eg, when I pipe to less)
                OTOH, the old ssh closes immediately after authentication.
                (Thanks for your work on this, it is appreciated).
2004/8/2 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:32624 Activity:high
8/3     New Mozilla/Firefox vulnerability (no patch yet):
        http://secunia.com/advisories/12188
        \_ Proof of concept: http://www.nd.edu/~jsmith30/xul/test/spoof.html
2004/8/2 [Computer/HW/IO] UID:32625 Activity:very high 66%like:32646
8/3     Kool-Aid killer?
        http://tinyurl.com/699ss
        \_ What does "Kool-Aid" refer it in this case?
                      \_ iPod/iPod Mini, but it is usually used as a generic
                         term for any cool apple product (not that there are
                         any un-cool apple products)
                         \_ one-button-mouse
                            \_ How many buttons are enough?  What is the
                               standard, Kenneth?
                               \_ 0: cool
                                  1: suck
                                  2: ok
                                  3: good
                                  3+wheel: best
                                  >3: annoying
                                  \_ Which OS do you use?  Your standard only
                                     applies to bad OSes (XP) or horrendous
                                     jokes (X-Windows).
                            \_ The no button bt mouse is still the coolest
                               mouse ever (maybe not the most practical, but
                               certainly the coolest). Even the one button
                               mouse started out cool (how many buttons did
                               your mouse have in 1984?)
                               My favorite mouse to date is the Logitech
                               Mx300 (2 btn w/ clickable scroll wheel)
        \_ KOOL-AID IS THE STANDARD!
2004/8/2 [Science/Electric, Reference/Military] UID:32626 Activity:insanely high
8/3     Five finger discount in the 21st century:
        http://tinyurl.com/5vjaf
        \_ When the government puts the RFID chip in the back of *your*
           neck, you'll be glad some punk kid shoplifters figured out how
           to nuke the bastard.
           \_ How is the gov. going to get a RFID chip in my neck?
              \_ MEN WITH GUNS!
                 \_ against citizens w/ bigger and better guns
                 \_ http://saf.org
                 \_ This is why ordinary folk need guns (preferably
                    a couple of desert eagles, some mp-5's, one
                    or two p90's, and some rpgs)
2004/8/2 [Reference/Military] UID:32627 Activity:very high
8/2     Trying to find a MPG of the North Hollywood Shootout. Google doesn't
        help. Thanks.
        \_ http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html ?
2004/8/2 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity] UID:32628 Activity:insanely high
8/2     Someone posted a few days ago: "Too bad 58% of the people don't know
        that the economy would collapse if the deficit was zero."  I happen to
        be among the 58%.  Can you please elaborate?  Thx.
        \_ The trade deficit or the budget deficit?
           \_ I think it was the budget deficit.
              \_ I think the OP of the quote meant the debt and not the
                 deficit. If it was the deficit then OP is truly ignorant
                 because there have been budget surpluses in the past.
                 However, there has always been a national debt. If we
                 were to pay off that debt (which stands at $7 Trillion
                 currently) there may be certain financial repercussions
                 that economists aren't sure about. Greenspan commented
                 on this briefly a couple years ago when there was overly
                 optimistic talks about paying off the national debt
                 within our lifetimes based on extrapolating from the
                 surpluses we were getting from dot-com mania.
        \_ Someone's an idiot?
        \_ I seem to remember some discussion of financial chaos if the US
           government bond market disappeared.
           \_ US Bond market stops selling, Asian investors (and governments)
              stop buying.  They stop buying, they stop selling their own
              currencies to buy dollars.  That happens, the dollar starts to
              deppreciate VS. the Yen and Yuan.  That happens, and asian goods
              becmore more expensive in the US, then asian exports start to
              decline, which is a big part of their economy.
              \_ US governemnt bond is the classic risk-free investment, and
                 some people like to invest in them.  Also, aren't lots of
                 things tied to the price of a t-bill?
                 \_ Even if the government wasn't selling bonds, there'd still
                    be a t-bill market.  The thing is prices would go up while
                    interest rates would go down.
              \_ yea, but asia is becoming a big market itself, and asian
                 domestic consumption is rising fast in relative importance.
                 japan's economy was pulled out of its 10-year recession by
                 by china, for instance.
        \_ Are there notable economies that regularly run a budgetary surplus?
           Probably some of the oil states, Norway for example.
        \_ China does not seem to have a trade deficit, and it's economy
           does not seem to be collapsing. We had a budget surplus a few
           years back and the economy was doing hell a lot better than it is
           today.
           \_ Historically, we run a budgetary deficiet, and budgetary
              surpluses are by far the exception.  And when we were running
              the surplus, there was confusion among some financial people
              re US governement bond market.
        \_ Those who spread these kind of lies are republicans profiting from
           the war, the oil, and everything else at the expense of the middle
           class.
        \_ We need partha for the definitive answer.
        \_ The way I see it, it is similar to managing a household.
           If you manage your household, then you will try not to run
           into budget deficit, because you know if you borrow money,
           you have to pay it back with interest. Now why does the
           government runs a budget deficit most of the time? It's
           simple, because those who spend the money are not
           responsible for paying it back. Think about it this way, if
           your household will be run by someone else 4 years later,
           you might not hesitate to overspend, especially buying
           expensive stuff from a store you own down the street. Most
           households are more responsible about money because they
           have to pay back whatever they spent. The government does
           not. It depends on how corrupt they are. The democrats want
           to spend the money on public infrastructure, on job
           creation, on welfare (not everything I agree with). The
           republican wants to spend money on defense (the big surplus
           we had, geez, what can we do with all these money, how do I
           get it into my pockets), and for that, they need to create
           enemies and wage wars around the world.
           \_ spending billions on missile defense systems that don't work
              isn't defense, it's welfare.
              \_ Don't forget other corporate welfare like crop subsidies,
                 ethanol programs, and tax cuts for 'job training' that
                 amounts to operating the cash register at Walmart.
                 \_ I figured I'd just post the most obviously fraudulent...
                    Now watch as the motd neocons try to explain to us why
                    deploying a system which was shown not to work
                    makes sense, even without further testing.
           \_ Republicans also 'spend' surplusses by giving tax cuts, then
              scream bloody murder when you try to raise taxes to cover the
              defecit.
        \_ BTW, what was the last time the national debt was 0?
        \_ I am so happy no one is using such facts to lobby for deficits.
2004/8/2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32629 Activity:high
8/3     And here's a big up yours to all the Sandinistas-lovin'-commie-ass
        liberals from the 80's.  http://csua.org/u/8ey
        \_ Nicaraguans reflect upon history of their country and the long
           running Reagan-sponsored civil war.
           \_ 1. stop editing my posts.  post your own.
              2. nicaraguans didn't do the reflecting in the article.  a
                 sandinistas-lovin'-commie-ass liberal did.
           \_ Yeah, the US is way responsible for the Nicaraguan disaster
              in the 90's.  I just love how all these communist paradises
              happen to fail.
2004/8/2 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/Virus, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:32630 Activity:high
8/3     I found this virus email fairly amusing:
        "Dear user of http://soda.csua.berkeley.edu,
         Your account was used to send a huge amount of unsolicited e-mail
         during the last week. Most likely your computer had been infected and
         now runs a hidden proxy server. We recommend you to follow our
         instruction in order to keep your computer safe.
         Best wishes,
         http://soda.csua.berkeley.edu technical support team."
        Included was the usual zipped executable file.  Who falls for this?!
        \_ yermom's got trojans
        \_ Many people at my workplace did.  Most non-engineers, and even some
           young engineers who have never seen a DOS prompt, don't realize that
           a file with a name "foo@bar.com" is an DOS/Windoze executable.
2004/8/2 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:32631 Activity:nil 54%like:35188
8/2     Dear German John, are you a Jew?                -John #1 Fan
        \_ WTF? !john !jew
2004/8/2-3 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:32632 Activity:very high
8/2     Linux newbie question, for dual boot is it better to install
        on one partitioned HD, or an entirely separate HD?
        \_ It's better to install vmware.  But if you must dual boot,
           it's definitely better on a separate HD.  -tom
           \_ It's not better to install vmware. It depends on what
              your needs are.
           \_ vmware sux for games; some of us play games newer than
              nethack.
              \_ You and the other anti-tom person above better get a clue.
                 tom has spoken.  The Final Word on linux dual boot has been
                 heard.  All hail!
        \_ separate hd is easier and gives you the option to take the
           drive out and stick it into a dedicated system later on.
        \_ Follow-up newb question, any distro recommendations?  I'm
           waffling between Debian (I like the idea of ease of updates
           and upgrades) and Slackware (simplicity can be good, but maybe
           too "raw" for a newb?).
           \_ You're interested in Debian and you think *Slackware* is too
              raw?
           \_ Learn to walk before you can run. Install fedora core 2 and
              get used to linux before trying something like debian or
              slackware (Debain is a much better choice than slackware
              though).
              \_ If he's new, he's new.  Fedora/RH9+ won't be any easier
                 than Debian or anything else.  He's still going to have to
                 read a zillion man pages and google everything.  He should
                 start with what he wants to end with and not waste time
                 learning other unrelated noise.
2004/8/2-3 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:32633 Activity:very high
8/2     Doom 3 Review: http://www.telefragged.com/reviews/doom3
        \_ OMG that review is teh suck1!!!!!!1
        \_ Someone's personal review:  http://csua.org/u/8f5
           \_ This sounds like what I expected.  ID has been remaking the
              same game since Doom 1.  Even Return to Wolfenstien was
              basically the same crap.
        \_ I played through some beginning parts. The levels are so pitch dark
           that you can barely see anything, and monsters pop out from various
           places accompanied by startling noises. It's simple but basically
           works, I started to get pretty pumped up. Graphically it taxes my
           system pretty hard. But the graphics don't match the hype IMO. The
           animation and lip syncing doesn't match Half-Life 2 video I've seen.
           The dynamic lighting looks spectacular sometimes, and combined with
           the highly detailed surfaces does achieve a great atmosphere, but
           doesn't seem so incredibly better than other recent games as hype
           would have it (Deus Ex 2 had similar technology for example, but
           wasn't as polished). It achieves a nice cinematic feel. I'll
           reserve further judgment until I play through it.
           \_ I've been thinking this same thought for the whole day:
              Why don't the marines of the future have the ability to mount a
              little flashlight on their gun?
              \_ Nah, it would give away their position. I'm sure we'll
                 have flashlight technology in the next iteration when the gfx
                 cards can actually handle a full scene without stuttering.
              \_ Or, more likely, a damn helmet light, with an infrared toggle.
                 Or at least hold a flashlight and pistol at the same time...
                 Mulder and Scully do it all the time. Pretty lame.
                 \_ Do M&S have BFG9000s? No. They don't.
2004/8/2 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:32634 Activity:insanely high
8/2     Dear motd Nazis,
        Um, can you like, um, please stop the partial delete?
        You have been warned?                   -Chancellor Wilhelm von Twink
        \_ Now who's the motd Nazi?
         \_ es Der Fuhrer Holub. HEIL!
            \_ It's not tom
                \_ alright who is it then?
                   \_ Why would it be me?  Because I sign my name and I think
                      ecchang is an idiot?  -tom
                        \_ who is ecchang?
                           \_ Chancellor Wilhelm von Twink.  -tom
                            \_ why is he a twink? You didn't explain
         \_ Must be me, judging by the "Heil John" idiot. -John the Jew
2004/8/2 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:32635 Activity:high
8/2     Maybe old news but try this:  google "miserable failure"
        \_ I always found google's one-sided little political jokes funny.
             -- google #1 fan
        \_ google: earth, sun, orbit.  it turns out the earth goes around the
           sun.
        \_ so old, it's fossilized by now
        \_ A simillar one is "weapons of mass destruction"
           \_ I still gets a big laugh out of this one, haha.
        \_ I always wanted to see people make "pyramid scheme"
           return with http://www.ssa.gov
            \_ That is a great idea. I'm game, let's at least see how high we
               can get it, spread the word.
           \_ Do you even know what a pyramid scheme is???
              \_ Yes.  It's a pyramid scheme because current beneficiaries are
                 paid more than they put in because there's a larger group of
                 people paying in to the system right now.  Future benefits
                 are in danger because there will not be enough people to
                 support the current benefit level unless the benefit is
                 reduced or new suckers have to pay in a higher level.
           \_ perhaps you really ment 'ponzi scheme'
              \_ No, I didn't.
        \_ I always wanted "twink" to return tom's site
        \_ I always wanted "tom holub" to return http://www.instantdegrees.com
           \_ Are you so craven and pathetic that your only recourse againts
              people you dislike consists of anonymous random ad hominem
              attacks on the motd?  You're sad.
           \_ gee, you're really clever, kchang.  -tom
2004/8/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32636 Activity:nil
8/2     I almost misread this quote on CNN pull: "Will President Bush's
        intelligence help thwart terrorist attacks?". I missed the
        'reform' between intelligence and help. :)
        \_ Bush = Strong Leader ; Kerry = Flip-flopper
           \_ Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.
              \_its what drives the Liberal media, it seems to work.
                it brainwashed you twink.
                \_ I think you are more brainwashed than you think.
                   \_ Anybody who thinks the media is liberal is out
                      of touch with reality.
2004/8/2-3 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:32637 Activity:very high
8/2     I'd like to get a USB HDD enclosure and use it to backup data.  What's
        the best format for (1) reliability and (2) compatibility?  I'd like
        to use it store my music on and sync with my ipod, so it would have to
        work with iTunes, but I wouldn't want to use NTFS because that's not
        writable from FreeBSD.  MSDOS might be a decent least-common-denom,
        but that seems to waste a lot of space and have reliability problems
        (fragmentation etc).  Can windows mount/write a harddrive in the UFS
        (CD) format?  Am I overlooking a good format? tia.
           \_ Thanks for the suggestions- I was somewhat against ext2 for
              reliability concerns (unfounded?), and I guess I meant UDF
              (I thought it was Universal File System...)
              Do you happen to know if UDF (or iso9660) is modifiable at all?
              Most of this stuff is going to be read heavy / write light,
              so write performance isn't important.  More important is each
              OS being able to recognize a harddrive formatted to look like
              a CD/DVD.
                \_ IIRC, the problem with ISO9660 and UDF is that you need
                   to stick a fs image onto the drive. You can't add and
                   delete files later (well, mt. rainier can, but that
                   isn't widely supported outside of windows).
                   BTW, ext2 sux, but it is pretty much your only choice
                   if you want 255 char filenames and unix permissions.
                   If you are okay with 8.3 filenames, then msdos fs
                   might work for you, but I think that you will find that
                   the effective storage space on your drive will be much
                   smaller than with other file systems because of the way
                   that blocks are allocated.
                   Are you okay with using VPC/VMWare on your systems?
                   If so, you may be able to stick NTFS onto your drive
                   and then just use Windows running in the vm to access
                   your drive, share its contents. Then using smb mount
                   you can mount the drive under Linux/*BSD/MacOS X.
                   If you are willing to spend some cash you might want
                   to consider trying to go the hfs+ route. The following
                   urls might be of some help:
                   1) hfs+ kernel module for 2.4/2.6 linux kernel:
                        http://www.ardistech.com/hfsplus
                   2) Freebsd hfs+ kernel module (5.0 and newer):
                        http://people.freebsd.org/~yar/hfs
                   3) MacDisk for Windows:
                        http://www.macdisk.com/mden.php3
                   4) MacDrive for Windows:
                        http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive5
                   I haven't used any of these before (I've used the
                   old hfs linux driver in 2.0/2.1 kernel under x86
                   and ppc linux, but not the current one), so I don't
                   know how well this will work.
        \_ Try ext2. There are windows, freebsd and macos x drivers for
           ext2. CD's don't use UFS (Unix File System, aka FFS), they use
           ISO 9660 (w/ extensions). Perhaps you are thinking about UDF (DVD
           format)? AFAIK, UDF isn't designed for rw access, so it would be
           a bad idea for a hard drive.
           \_ ext2 rw support for Windows is very bad. I would be very careful
              about rw on ext2 under Windows if you want to keep your data
              intact for any period of time. Unfortunately I can't offer a
              good alternative that is cross platform because Windows support
              for 3rd party drivers is just the shits. You can (again) thank
              Mr. Gates for that one.
              \_ ext2 rw support linux is very bad too but people use it.
                 \_ Ha-ha, very witty. Now why don't you STFU and let the
                    adults talk. By "very bad" I mean that you can expect
                    data corruption everytime you access the disk. No,
                    not sometimes, no, not once every ten times, but
                    EVERYTIME you write to ext2 from Windows.
                    Thank you for playing.
                    \_ You can expect data corruption from ext2 everytime you
                       use it as well.  If you stopped playing with kiddie
                       boxes and put it in production, you'd find out real
                       fast what ext2 can do to data and you'd either learn
                       how to real fast how good your backups are or be
                       looking for a new job.  Thank *you* for playing.  I
                       enjoy 'winning' whatever that means on the motd.
2004/8/2-3 [Industry/Jobs, Industry/Startup] UID:32638 Activity:high
8/2     What are the best job sites?  Have you found a job using those
        sites?
        \_ I'm in civil and monster worked fine, though it took some patience.
           I had to wait about four months for something good, ducking
           crap from headhunters most of that time. That time waited has
           more to do with the realities of the civil job market than with
           monster. -- ulysses
        \_ sites work well for entry level jobs. Nowadays you really need
           connections and referals.
           \_ *you* might.  others do fine going in cold.
        \_ I found my current job three years ago by posting a resume on
           http://dice.com.  The HR at my company saw it and gave me a call for an
           interview.  But at the same time I got calls from ten job firms or
           so.  That's the downside.
           \_ I hated dice for precisely that reason: lots of responses from
              annoying headhunters, none from real companies.
              \_ So what?  Ask them for the name of the hiring company and
                 no you're not coming in or sending in an updated resume
                 without that information, click.
                 \_ You don't understand.  They're not representing a
                    specific company.  They have a zillion no-name,
                    uninteresting companies they're trying to fit you for.
        \_ craigslist
           \_ ditto. Got my current job thru CL.
2004/8/2-3 [Transportation/Motorcycle] UID:32639 Activity:very high
8/2     dear motd motorcyclist: I wear a full helmet and I still get a lot
        of wind/dust blown into my eyes. I have a Shoei RF-900 and I closed
        all the vents but it doesn't really help. What do you do to minimize
        wind? Thanks.
        \_ with my Arai, pulling down the chin spoiler helps. -jwang
         \_ Arai's meant for oval-shaped heads. How'd your round/Asian
            head fit in it?             -Shoei Asian dude
            \_ google "arai oval round" -jwang
                \_ Arai makes a lot of models, which one do you have?
                   \_ you don't get to be lazy and anonymous. sign your name
                      or e-mail me if you really cared to know. -jwang
                        \_ oh my, grouchy grouchy.
2004/8/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32640 Activity:very high
8/2     Washington Post article shows convention reversed voter distribution
        on which candidate is trustworthy / honest:
        http://csua.org/u/8f6
        \_ Not according to NewsMax!
           http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/2/90109.shtml
           \_ NewsMax is saying Kerry didn't get a 10-15% bounce, and everyone
              knows that.  However, not everyone knows that on some
              issue/character-related questions, Kerry saw a big jump, which
              is what I posted.
        \_ Yawn, yes, we've been over this.  The polls will go up and down
           in all directions every week until the election.  The conventions
           don't mean squat.  People will watch the 3 debates, ignore the vp
           debate and vote based on how they feel after they've seen or heard
           about all 3.  No poll is worth a bucket of spit until after the
           third debate.  I know you're all psyched and this is your first
           election and all and it's really exciting and you think this stuff
           is important, but really, I promise, it isn't.  If there were a
           20+ point lead then we'd know who was winning.
           \_ I think you need to give motd posters more credit than this.
              I realize that there will be ups and downs -- however, this
              result shows that there is a bump for Kerry on trustworthiness,
              when it's entirely imaginable he would have screwed this up.
2004/8/2-3 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:32641 Activity:high
8/2     My Laptop's PCMCIA ethernet card seems to transfer files a lot
        slower than my desktop systems. Is there a data transfer limit
        on PCMCIA standard? The Laptop is a Toshiba Tecra8100 and the
        card is not a no-name brand either. Thanks.
        \_ Don't be surprised to see throughput of 8 Mbps when using a 100Mbps
           Ethernet PCMCIA card.  CardBus is a lot better.  PCMCIA is like ISA;
           CardBus is like PCI.
           \_ Does this refer to the card itself or the slot on the laptop?
              \_ Your laptop probably has CardBus interfaces; the card itself
                 is probably PCMCIA.  You can buy a CardBus Ethernet card, which
                 is anything in the last 0-~5 years?
              \_ It refers to both. CardBus and PCMCIA have the same
                 physical interface, but electronically, they are
                 very different, CardBus being faster.
                 \_ Are the 32-bit cards CardBus while the 16bit cards
                    are the older PCMCIA ones? They seem to make a distinction
                    about 16/32bit more than PCMCIA/cardbus....
                    \_ Yes.
2004/8/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32642 Activity:high
8/2     Read what Schanberg, friend of Dith Pran (Killing Fields),
         has had to say about Kerry:
        Kerry hit by Vietnam flak for 'betrayal' (2004)
        http://www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com/presspow/p030704.htm
        John Kerry: The Chameleon Senator (1996)
        http://www.usvetdsp.com/story10.htm
        \_ As much as I'd like to support these people (I dislike Kerry
           more than I do Bush) I think that we need to let go of the MIAs
           of Vietnam. It may seem cruel and heartless, but we can't continue
           to fight the ghosts of the past ad naseum. I also think that
           perhaps with normalization of relations with Vietnam we might
           be able to find out more about the MIAs/POWs than without
           normalization. This is of course more hope than reality, but
           there is little chance that we will ever find out anything about
           the MIAs by continuing investigations like we have in the past.
           \_ Why don't we just nuke Vietnam?
              \_ Because we've dismantled a huge number of nukes and don't
                 have enough left to spare on something like that.
                 \_ Bwahahhaha! Sniff. That's a good one!
        \_ Summoning all the moral authority of a liberal Rush Limbaugh that
           I can, I say:  "Sounds like Kerry-haters to me!"
           \_'kerry-haters' = military
              \_ and rightly so.
           \_ Liberal Rush Limbaugh?  Is there some inside joke there?
2004/8/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:32643 Activity:insanely high
8/2     Very interesting article.  It is now clear that we deliberately
        went to Vietnam by provoking the North Vietnamese:
        http://tinyurl.com/4t7kk                        (NPR)
        Listen to the full analysis.
        This is a far cry from the "Communist aggression" we've portraited
        for generations.
        \_ Old news, nothing new to see here. If you were actually alive
           during the 'Nam war you would've realized this. Time you went
           back to 20th Century American History 101.
        \_ Just like we provoked them in '75, when they
           subsequently slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Cambodians
           and millions deserted on rafts.  You're a complete fool;
           a perfect Kerry voter.
           \_ Uhm, the Khmer Rouge/Vietnam war was at best a muddled affair.
              Don't know which was worse, Pol Pot killing 2 million or
              the Vietnamese coming in and slaughtering the Pol Pot regime.
              It's just a nasty business either way and just underscores
              how bad communism really was.
              \_ Pol Pot was a byproduct of France and the Communist
                 Vietnamese and Chinese
           a perfect Kerry voter.
        \_ Here's another newsflash, LBJ was a DEMOCRAT!  Oh my golly!
        \_ We thought it was Communism spread by the Soviet Union, but
           actually it was just a nationalist movement, which we would have
           not had a problem with.  Oops!
           \_ We would not have had a problem with, except that we were
              there in the first place backing up the French, who felt
              they needed to reassert their roles as colonialists after
              WWII.  If he had listened to Ho Chi Min and told France to
              stuff it's colonialism where the sun doesn't shine earlier,
              we could have saved everyone a lot of trouble.
              \_ Given that France has a tradition of anti-Americanism, why
                 on earth did we try to save its ass in indochine?
                 \_ Anti-Americanism?! The country that gave us the Statue
                    of Liberty and helped us defeat the British?
                    \_ Wrong France. Try again.  Read a history book.
                       \_ Which part are you disputing, idiot?
                          \_ Read a history book, you ignorant slut.  I
                             dispute your historical comments.  All of them.
                             Know wtf you're talking about before calling
                             someone an idiot.  Go check the dates for the
                             French Revolution.  Idiot, indeed.
                             \_ You dispute that France gave the Statue of
                                Liberty to the US? Which country was
                                France imitating with the revolution? Moron.
                 \_ We wanted them to join NATO.
                 \_ Live and learn.  Frenchies get pretty friendly when
                    they're getting their butt's kicked by Germans.
              \_ Actually 2/3 of Vietnam voted, yes voted, in an
                 election to remain aligned with France.  This was an
                 unsatisfactory result for Ho Chi Min hence the civil
                 war.  What he could not obtain by election was taken
                 by force.
                 \_ That's a new one to me.  Link?
           \_ It was not 'nationalist' movement.  Ho Chi Min and the
              other cadre were laways tried and true Communists, even
              during WWII.  The common foot soldier may have thought
              he was fighting for freedom, but as soon as the war
              was over he found out otherwise (as is always the case
              with these Communist insurrections).  Of course anyone
              who then caused trouble was summarily shot.
              \_ "Want to do what I say, and you're free to do what you
                 want."
              \_ While they were communists, my contention is that it was
                 nationalism that is what actually mattered.  They were not
                 toadies of the Soviet Union.
2004/8/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32644 Activity:very high
8/2     So, I've been wondering... We know GWB almost certainly wasn't at
        the Alabama AF base in 72/73.  Where was he???  Why is there no one
        out there who seems to remember him being *anywhere* *at* *all*?
        It's like he dropped off the face of the earth.  If he was out
        coking up I'd expect to hear from dozens of people who partied with
        him during that time period.
        \_ This month's GQ has a pretty funny article, complete with
           reasonable photoshop jobs, about how W was knocking around SE
           Asia as a tux-wearing hitman for the CIA.  -John
           \_ Not photoshop.  It's a doppleganger. --scotsman
        \_ Hahahahaahahahaahahaha. Right. These people are part of the
           old-boy wealth network. How many hippies do you think were
           at those Bush coke parties?
           \_ Doesn't it bother any motd liberals that Kerry is part of the
              same network?
              \_ No, no, no Bush bad, anyone else good!
              \_ The child of Jewish-cum-Catholic immigrants is part of the
                 old-boy wealth network?  How does this work, exactly?
                 \_ They are both Skull and Bones members from Yale. You
                    can choose the dumb one married to a Republican or the
                    do-nothing also married to a Republican. Isn't America
                    great?
                    \_ yea but there's always democrat super stud james
                       carville who boinks republican biatch mary matalin
                       everyday.
           \_ So every person from his coke friend to his maid and taxi
              drivers are all part of the old-boy wealth network and is
              covering up for him?  No one saw him in a store, at a gas
              station, eating out dinner, or at a night club?  He hid out
              and spent time *only* with old-boy wealth network people,
              including servants and staff, for a year?  You're an idiot.
        \_ He was with buddies. He wasn't particularly famous in 72/73.
           If he was with buddies, they probably would cover for him, since
           hey, if you buddy becomes POTUS it can be useful.
           \_ See above about the odds he spent his time _only_ with his
              buddies for a _year_ and every single one of them is willing to
              cover for him.  Your answer would only satisfy the tinfoil hat
              crowd.  People do remember other people especially someone
              like GWB who was always the outgoing center of attention
              where ever he went.  Anyway, being "with his buddies" is still
              no answer.  Where were *they*?  And who?
        \_ He was training to be the Manchurian Candidate.
        \_ How exactly do we "Know" he wasn't there?  Some missing records
           and some people who can't remember him is hardly proof of
           anything.  I've seen other people who DO remember him, and his
           papers show full service. There's more proof for him being
           there than there is against.
           \_ Yes, because that's all the evidence the WH has allowed to be
              released.
              \_ The white house also hasn't allowed evidence that we are
                 secretly ruled by space aliens to be released!  AAAAAAAA!
                 \_ Don't be stupid.  They STILL haven't released all his
                    military records.  Can you think of a reason why other than
                    to hide what he was really doing?
                    \_ Do you mean the missing records or the records they
                       released 6 months ago?
        \_ Here's a blog link on the subject, comes with links to real
           articles.  (follow the links at the top of the page.)
           http://csua.org/u/8fh
http://boards.historychannel.com/threaded.jsp?forum=2174&thread=100000898&start$
2004/8/2-3 [Uncategorized] UID:32645 Activity:nil
8/2     Can we squish whoever is doing the motd-rewriting with the whitespace
        conversion or whatever the hell it's doing? Highly annoying.
        \_ Can we squish you, too?  Seems only fair because I find you highly
           annoying also.
           \_ are you the one doing that? if you are you're a fucking dumbshit.
2004/8/2-3 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:32646 Activity:nil 66%like:32504 57%like:32529 66%like:32625
8/2     Kool-aid for Linux:
        http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5293915.html
2004/8/2-3 [Uncategorized] UID:32647 Activity:high
8/2     How to live a weirder life?
        \_ hang out with danh
        \_ Marry ikiru?
           \_ zing!
2004/8/2-3 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:32648 Activity:nil
8/2     Is there a way I can invoke  abs (absolute value) from a bash script?
        In general how can I use math function from shell script?
        \_ If you're worried about math functions, then it is time to start
           using a real scripting language instead of shell.
           \_ Agreed.  But, if you're not quite ready to rewrite your script
              yet, it's pretty easy in bash: $((x < 0 ? -x : x)) will return
              the absolute value of $x.  See the section ARITHMETIC EXPANSION
              in the bash manpage.  --mconst
              \_ Thanks.  I would have used Perl if I had thought that
                 I would need math functions.
                 \_ It's never too late to do the right thing.  It'll only
                    be harder to convert later.
        \_ bc (use a here document), note you have to define your own
           abs function.
2017/11/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/22   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:August:02 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>