Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:July:20 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2004/7/20-21 [Industry/Jobs] UID:32367 Activity:insanely high 66%like:12088 66%like:30258 50%like:30016
17/20   motd poll: how much did you get for your last raise?
        \_ http://csua.com/Industry/Jobs
        \_ got a 6% raise just last week. Before that, my last raise was in
           early 2001 and that was 8%.
        \_ 10% cost of living increase in grad student stipend.  These happen
           in random years in response to competition from other universities.
        \_ buahahahah...: .
        \_ about 7% (including "bonus")
        \_ inflation adjustment of 3% on average.  I got a 8% raise only
           because couple guys in my project left and I was implying I was
           going to leave if I was not well compensated.
        \_ None (consultant) but manaegd to keep my rates constant, and
           noticed that nitpicking about $$$ by clients has decreased
           markedly over the past few months.  -John
        \_ 10% -- market rate adjustment and because I aksed.
        \_ Last "raise" (pay increase w/o a promotion) was 3 yrs ago.
           I think it was about 7%. I was promoted one grade level 2
           yrs ago and my pay went up about 15%. I haven't had a raise
           since then (I've survived 3 rounds of lay-offs, so I'm just
           glad to have a job). I'm in line for a promotion this year.
           If it happens my pay should go up 10% or so (not sure what
           "engineers" get paid at this firm, currently I'm just a
           "member of technical staff").
        \_ 3.4% in December 2003, 3.5% in Feb 2003.
        \_ 1.9 in 2/03, 2.7 in 2/04.  Didn't ask, no promotion.
        \_ 2% in 2/04, 0.5% in 2/03
        \_ Got a 3.5% COLA raise, but it got sucked up by higher benefit costs.
        \_ Got a 4% raise at my last yearly evaluation, which was in October.
        \_ So with the above responses the economy seems to be getting better?
           \_ The economy is getting better, but it's still very weak. It
              will most likeley not go back to the way it was in the
              forseeable future. This has been the worst recession in
              about 20 years.
                \_ WSJ had an article yesterday.  It says that the
                   recovery has happened for well-off americans but
                   low income and middle class americans are still
                   very much struggling.  for me, it seems that
                   those with money is going to do well in this
                   age of outsourcing and globalization, whereas
                   those with skills that can be oursourced are
                   going to continue to struggle.
                   \_ Rich get richer - same old story.  Only difference now
                      is that no one speaks for anyone but the rich.
                      \_ That is not new either. People who had money
                         during The Depression became very wealthy. I am
                         not sure if anyone has ever spoken for the poor
                         unless you mean activists like MLK.
                         \_ The progressives of the late 19th/early 20th
                            century are a good example...and both Roosevelts,
                            to some extent - Teddy more than Franklin, perhaps.
                            Current whiny left types are definitely not
                            included.  MLK would be, for sure.  There was
                            also more voices for the worker in the media in
                            the days before consolidation...
                            \_ even the Communist Party in China no longer
                               speaks for the poor.  funny, huh?
                     \_ Unions still speak for the working man. Who
                        isn't poor anymore, thanks to their efforts, but
                        doesn't really qualify as rich, either.
                  \_ here's the article if you have access to WSJ online.
                        http://tinyurl.com/6d6y6
                     incidentally, for those who haven't considered it,
                     the wsj has surpassed economist as my favourite rag.
                     it's worth considering even if you are not a pig
                     for finance and business news.  I agree with the
                     critism that the opinion pages are totally one
                     sided, but I find the rest of it rather balanced.
                     and its viewpoints are often quite refreshing
                     and insightful compared to more general news rags.
                     \_ Could you share the WSJ login?
                        \_ it's not free, so I can't.
                     \_ The WSJ has never been anything but a very vocal
                        advocate for unregulated markets and I really
                        doubt that anything has changed on that regard.
                        Do they discuss the pros and cons of socialized
                        medicine yet? Having said that, they are still
                        the best source for business news in America.
                        But I am boycotting them until after the election
                        since they have turned their opinion page into
                        a partisan hackfest. -long time WSJ reader
        \_ http://csua.com/Industry/Jobs
           \_ put your shit at the bottom like the rest of us
2004/7/20-21 [Industry/Jobs] UID:32368 Activity:nil
7/20    Technical Consultant position available at Berkeley start-up. See
        /csua/pub/jobs/Recommind/TechnicalConsultant.txt
2004/7/20 [Computer/SW] UID:32369 Activity:high
7/20    What does this movie poll from the daily cal website say about
        Cal?
        This week's poll results
        What was the best movie of the summer?
        43% Fahrenheit 9/11
        0%  Napoleon Dynamite
        33% Spider Man 2
        5%  White Chicks
        19% Other
        \_ continue to be more boring!
        This week's poll results
        What was the best movie of the summer?
        43% Fahrenheit 9/11
        0%  Napoleon Dynamite
        33% Spider Man 2
        5%  White Chicks
        19% Other
        \_ What does this attempt at trolling say about the motd?
           \_ Please define troll.
              \_ He's citing the results of an ONLINE WEB POLL and trying to
                 imply that this "says something" about Cal.  Obvious attempt
                 at kicking up yet another content-free flamefest about
                 Michael Moore and probably the evilllllll liburul Cal student
                 body.
                 \_ hell, our own darin already said f9/11 "may be the most
                    important film of this decade", likely before he even saw
                    the film, and we're just in 2004.  talk about hyperbole.
        \_ Whether or not you like F911, comparing it to those other movies
           in a poll seems like lousy statistical methodology.
        \_ I was just gonna say that Cal kids have no taste, but hey.
        \_ GUYS.  This is a WEB POLL.  An anonymous WEB POLL.  You aren't
           THAT dumb, are you?  I mean, christ, its on the Daily Cal web site.
           \_ anonymous WEB POLLs today, tomorrow the world is run by a
              communist dictatorship!  Don't you see, CAN'T YOU SEE IT?!?
2004/7/20-21 [Uncategorized] UID:32370 Activity:moderate
7/20    Person looking for a EF 28-105 f/3.5-4.5 usm did you already buy
        one? I can probably help. -shac
        \_ I haven't bought one yet. I did send you mail last night.
           When you have some time drop me an email and I'll try to figure
        \_ I haven't bought one yet. I sent you mail last night. When
           you have some time drop me an email and I'll try to figure
           out how to get up to berkeley to get it. --ranga
2004/7/20 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32371 Activity:high
7/20    Dear German John, HEIL! Where/how did you learn your German, and
        what other languages do you speak?
        \_ I took inspiration from your mom's muffled screams. -John
2004/7/20 [Uncategorized] UID:32372 Activity:nil
7/20    What's the music in one of the Austin Powers movies that plays when we
        first see the fembots?  It has a very catchy bassline...
        \_ These Boots Are Made for Walking by Nancy Sinatra
           \_ Thanks.  I feel stupid.
              \_ Nevermind, I couldn't find it because it's not on the
                 soundtrack.
2004/7/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32373 Activity:high
7/20    Nader relinquishes whatever is left of his principles:
        http://www.freep.com/news/politics/nader20_20040720.htm
        (Detroit Free Press article)
        \_ How is that?  You mean like the communist party USA endorsing Kerry
           because they hate Bush so much?  Or other parties which are
           ideologically opposed to Dems or Pubs getting out of the race in the
           hopes that one or the other will win?
           \_ Oh, bitch, please.  Don't try to sneak in a cute name for the
              Repubs.  They do not get those kinds of snaps.
        \_ It's been suggested that Perot was trying to throw the election
           for Clinton, maybe Nader is throwing it for Bush?
           \_ As unlikely as this conspiracy theory is, it's getting harder
              to argue against it with every new level of GOP support for
              Nader that his organization just accepts. If he is standing on
              principle (since he is certainly not trying to get elected) why
              dilute his supposed righteousness in this way?
              \- er doesnt something have to be covert or hidden to be
                 a conspiracy? --psb
        \_ I won't be baited.  There's no reason to respond to your
           freeper links or even read them.  --Nader'04
           \_ freep != freerepublic
              \_ http://www.freep.com is the Detroit Free Press website.
2004/7/20-21 [Uncategorized] UID:32374 Activity:low 66%like:33179
7/20    What happened to inpassing?
2004/7/20 [Health/Disease/General, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32375 Activity:insanely high
7/20    Lenin died of STD.
        http://www.csua.org/u/89f (Yahoo! News)
        \_ this has been known for decades.
2004/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/Gay] UID:32376 Activity:insanely high
7/20    Where do people here come up with all the interesting (and not so
        interesting) links?  Do you start off from a random site and
        does tree traversal on all the links all day and all night?
        \_ No.  Sites like these do all the work for you:
           http://www.metafilter.com
           http://www.memepool.com
           http://www.obscurestore.com
           Those should get you started, young Jedi.
2004/7/20 [Uncategorized] UID:32377 Activity:insanely high
7/20    Anybody have any more links like this:
        http://www.ibiblio.org/jmaynard/TRONcostume
        I need a good laugh.
        \_ Here you go.  Possibly not work safe.
           http://razormoon.fateback.com/consort
           \_ more more. surely the motd can do better.
2004/7/20-21 [Academia/UCLA] UID:32378 Activity:low
7/20    Any good free/cheap wireless cafes near the UCLA campus?  I need to do
        some work there this afternoon and I can't get on the campus network.
2004/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32379 Activity:high
7/20    Bush vs Kerry:
        http://www.wonkette.com/images/doublebasket.jpg
        \_ um... what?
           \_ crotch shot
        \_ more amusing bush vs. kerry:  http://www.jibjab.com
2004/7/20-21 [Academia/Berkeley/Classes] UID:32380 Activity:high
9/11    The one that reversed all the words yesterday, how did he do it?
        It was pretty funny.
        \_ Funny?  Yes, destroying other people's discussions (both political
           and technical) is Hi-larious.
        \_ How did he do it? We will never know. Such magnificent text
           processing is unheard of!! But that's the great thing about CSUA,
           you witness the sheer genius of our fellow Berkeley colleagues.
           I mean what was that, some kind of while (input) { reverse} job?
           They should use this problem in CS170.
           \_ No, such problem is hard enough to be used in ACM.
              \_ I think reverse() in a loop is too hard even for the ACM.
                 Why do you think they've never covered the topic before?
2004/7/20-21 [Computer/Companies/Apple, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:32381 Activity:nil
7/20    Does ipod work with usb 1.1 at all? with the apple usb adapter?
        \_ my 2nd gen ipod works with usb 1.1 under windows xp
        \_ My battery won't recharge when connected to a 1.1 port.
2004/7/20-21 [Consumer/Audio, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:32382 Activity:insanely high
7/20    I want to spend money on something cool. Any suggestions? Probably not
        willing to spend more than about $2k.
        \_ take a pilot class, it is really an eye opener
        \_ Go on a trip.  Take a helicopter tour over Kawaii.  Go visit the
           Lourve. (sp?) Or St. Peter's Basilica.  You'll remember it
           forever:  it's worth more than some $2k hunk of junk.  --PeterM
           \_ Bah. You mill around with the other tourist cattle looking at
              pictures of dead white people. Or get sunburned wandering in some
              rainy island. Just upgrade your PC and preorder Doom 3!
        \_ give me to me, i'll spend it for you and send you a cool
           cool greeting card.
           \_ You need someone to give you to yourself?
        \_ GFE
        \_ My girlfriend will give you about 45 minutes for $2k.
           You won't regret it!
           \_ Does she do anal???
              \_ Sure, yermom is a total ho-bag.
           \_ How is it dating a whore?
           \_ Sky? Is that you?
           \_ How much does your girlfriend charge YOU?
        \_ Half-a-pound of weed
           \_ Sweet!
        \_ Used motorcycle and enough gear to keep from getting killed.
        \_ Some ideas:
           - Canon 10D w/ 28-135 USM II IS lens
           - 23" lcd w/ X800XT or nv6800UDDL
           - 40 gb iPod + dock + case
           - Sony WEGA: 34" HD: http://tinyurl.com/5gdty
                        36" w/o HD: http://tinyurl.com/5nnjq
        \_ Buy and share a RealDoll(tm) with someone.
        \_ Buy a RealDoll(tm) with someone else, and share her.
        \_ dear op, please consider alternatives to material goods.
           Sure you can buy a cool toy or something, but what about
           intagible things that'll actually last you a lifetime? Have
           you considered using that money on education (chef/pastry
           class, 1/3 of a pilot's license, horseback riding,
           Princeton Review/MBA, etc)? You can buy cool toys and
           they'll be fun for a while, but please consider the
           intangible things that lasts you a lifetime.
           \_ sometimes  those are the same thing, like getting a boat
              that you then actually use all the time.
            \_ It is weird to agree with someone entirely and still think
              they are being a complete pansy.  Or, for the majority with
              south park clue... -phuqm
            \_ Dude, that is so gay. -Stan
               \_ Education makes you gay.
                        \_
  "The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and
  blow, "is to learn something.  That's the only thing that never fails.
  You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at
  night listening to the disorder of your veins, you may miss your only
  love, you may see the world about you devastated by evil lunatics, or
  know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser minds.  There is only
  one thing for it then -- to learn.  Learn why the world wags and what
  wags it.  That is the only thing which the mind can never exhaust,
  never alienate, never be tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never
  dream of regretting.  Learning is the only thing for you.  Look what a
  lot of things there are to learn."
           -- T.H. White, "The Once and Future King"
2004/7/20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32383 Activity:moderate
7/20    National Review column amazing study in Straw Men and False Dichotomy!
        http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/lowry/lowry.asp
        \_ Yeah... Who ever called W a "manipulative genius"?
           \_ Wasn't Bush behind 9/11? Didn't he convince the CIA to fabricate
              Iraq-AlQuiada connections? Isn't the whole purpose of the war in
              Afghanistan to get an oil pipeline built? Isn't the whole Iraq
              War just a big profiteering scheme for BushCo? Didn't Bush
              *steal* the election?
              \_ Bush Vs. BushCo.
              \_ The logical error made over and over again in the above
                 column is to assume that all people that you disagree with
                 must hold the same opinions.
        \_ Oh poor widdle widdle Bush and his poor whiney widdle supporters.
           How can you stand to be hated by the whole world so?
2004/7/20-21 [Health/Eyes] UID:32384 Activity:high
7/20    anyone got LASIK in bay area? which doctor did you use and results?
        \_ got LASIK, totally fucked up my night vision. Very sad...
            \_ so where did you go get it done?
                \_ makes no difference, I did it before WaveFront was out.
                   I'm about 9.5 both eyes and WaveFront was usable for up
                   to 7.0, so I had the traditional Lasik done. Turns out
                   traditional LASIK really sucks because it doesn't correct
                   higher order aspherical aberrations. My advise to you is
                   to wait 5-10 more years when the technology is better.
                   Otherwise you'll live with a fucked up vision like mine.
                                                -bitter Lasik patient
        \_ me and 3 friends all got lasik from dr. epstein in the chicago
           area.  we are all happy.  company paid $2k, I paid $800.  Get
           a good doctor of course, but there is always some risk.  the
           worse your condition, the higher the risk.
           \_ 1/3 of how your eyes turn out, depends on how your eyes heal.
              The other 1/3 is the technology (how much accuracy/prediction
              can the machine make?). The other 1/3 is the doctor. The
              doctor has very little control on how your eyes heal and how
              well the Lasik machine can accurately map your eyes. In another
              word people have the perception that the doctor is really
              important, when in fact, he/she has very little control on the
              other 2/3 of the factors. I paid $3000 for both eyes to a
              really good doctor (opthm fellowship, Jules Stein fellow,
              awards, great record, etc etc), but my night vision is still
              totally fucked up. The technology is just not there yet. I'd
              wait if I were you.               -bitter Lasik patient
              \_ out of curiosity, have you found any medical explanation
                 for why your night vision was selectively affected?
                 \_ larger than normal pupil, corneal healing rate not
                    normal, and above all, using traditional Lasik which
                    did not do as good of a mapping as Wavefront (Wavefront
                    is 25X more accurate for the higher order abberations).
                    I talked to many doctors. They all said a doctor could
                    do everything correctly such as my case, but there are
                    far greater things that are out of his control.
                    \_ what's the relationship to night vision specifically?
                       (wrt lasik)
                    \_ doesn't a larger than normal pupil eliminate you
                        as a potential lasik candidate? (Lasik reshapes
                        the lens.  People with larger than normal pupil
                        have their pupil expand beyond the area of
                        reshaping when light is low, and this will
                        cause a problem (halo, etc.))
                \_ technology is not there for people with severe Rx and
                   etc....  If you are a reasonable candidate, it works
                   perfectly.  I went to Scott Hyver, had this WaveFront
                   thing.  My eyesight is now perfect day and night.
                   He made a point of telling me what characterstics of
                   my eyes did or did not make me a good candidate, and
                   said that as an ethical Dr. he would only perform
                   surgery appropriate for the individual.
2004/7/20-21 [ERROR, uid:32385, category id '18005#5.79' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32385 Activity:very high
7/20    Bush flip flops.  Is he a "war president" or a "peace president?"
        http://csua.org/u/89r (reuters via yahoo news)
        \_ always @(negedge PollNumbers) Bush <= ~Bush;
           now, that's a flip flop.
        \_ War is Peace
        \_ Peace makes war.
2004/7/20-21 [Consumer/CellPhone] UID:32386 Activity:moderate
7/20    I want to sign up for a cell phone plan and end my home phone
        service. Would my home phone number be transferable to my cell phone?
        \_ Theoretically, but I'm nto sure you can transfer it to a prepaid.
           Your words 'cell phone plan' suggest you don't mean prepaid, so it
           should be possible.  I think you start by telling your new cell
           phone company you want to port from a landline.  DO NOT cancel your
           conventional service until it's all complete!
        \_ I would never transfer my landline to a cell phone.
           \_ Uh, OK, some people want to for obvious reasons.
        \_ Is there a way to forward your landline to a cellphone number?
           \_ The closest thing I know of is Cingular has a system where if you
              are an SBC customer, you can plug your cell into a special
              charger cradle at home and your cell calls will ring to your
              home phone.  Take the phone out of the cradle and your cell
              number will ring on your cell phone.  If you couple this with a
              landline-to-cell port followed by a new landline, that would sort
              of give you the same thing.
              \_ I know for verizon i just dial *72number and it will do forward,
                 a very nice feature. Is there similar things for land line? ie,
                 I am going on vacation and just want to forward everything to
                 my cellphone... sbc. thx.
                 \_ sbc has a call forward service, you just need to pay.
        \_ Did you check if your home will have good cell phone reception?  My
           cell phone work poorly in my home.
2004/7/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32387 Activity:very high
7/20    Are Filipinos embarassed over your country being cowards?
        \_ they should be. They should of stand tall and so *NO* to
           American at first place.
           \_ Chicom troll!  U Rock!      -Chicom Troll #1 fan
              \_ Just want to inform you guys that USA is bullying
                 just about everyone to contribute troops in Iraq hence
                 caused a lot of resentment toward USA.  An interesting
                 case is the Korean one.  I was talking to a Korea national
                 (not Korean-American),  he told me that Koreans are generally
                 bitter toward USA for the beheading of one of the translator,
                 eventhough it is Iraqi who was doing the killing, resentment
                 toward USA is far exceed resentment toward Iraq
        \_ the filipino president just barely won her election and
           there were lots of charges of voter fraud, she decided
           having the US mad at her was less important than no political
           support at home, AT ALL, at this time.
        \_ They were scheduled to withdraw in August.  Troops home 10 days
           early, 1 truck driver alive.  Definite cowardice.
        \_ Have you stopped beating your wife?  And why do you hate America?
           \_ http://csua.org/u/89q (Filipino gets hammered, then hammers wife)
        \_ I am troubled by the fact that they gave into terrorists but I
           fail to see how not withdrawing is an act of bravery.  It's
           not like an soldiers or government officials would have had their
           heads cut off.   They could have just decided to let the guy
           get fucked to save face.  Would that be considered brave?
        \_ The thing about Filipines is that it has like a million  OFW
           (overseas filipino workers) working in muslim countries.  It has
           take their interest and safety into consideration.
           \_ Well in the long run they have just painted a huge target on
               those poor OFW's.   Now any small-time kidnapper with a beef
               against the Phillipines just has to grab a filipino and
               threaten to behead them and they'll have the phillipine Gov't
               at their knees.   Way to reward the terrorists, guys.
               \_ Umm... don't you think you might be exagerating a little?
                  All they got was the withdrawal of a mere 50 troops just 10
                  days ahead of schedule.  I'd hardly call that
                  'at their knees'.
               \_ but maybe this Iraq business isn't where they should make
                  a stand, and unnecessarily threaten the lives of the OFWs.
                  Do the Islamic terrorists just kidnap people from random
                  countries and make random demands on those countries?
                  \_ They're planning on kidnapping some Finns so they can
                     demand more cell phones.
                     \_ Do Filipinos have an inferiority complex?
                        \_ As Paolo points out, their country is named after
                           a Spanish king.  What do you think?  -- ilyas
                           \_ oh yea, whatever. at least they don't change
                                their name to barnstone just to cover up
                                their heritage.
                  \_ at first, it seems like randomn.  But now the pattern is
                     quite clear: kidnapping the not-so-willing allies, and
                     put the final straw which break the camel.
           \_ Forget OFWs, I bet the Philippines are more worried about the
              Muslims in their own country (the embattled southern islands have
              lots of Muslim extremists, and reportedly a few of Osama's
              illegitimate children).
           \_ Last time I check, we dumped over 10 billions in 10 years helping
              these "freedom fighters" to do the fighting in Afghanstan.  Now,
              please tell me who is rewarding the terrorist again?
              \_ You have been Trolled. -OP
2004/7/20-21 [Transportation/Airplane] UID:32388 Activity:nil
7/20    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3910965.stm
        In Soviet Russia, we do air rage against you.
        \_ jeezus christ, that's scary--here's why:  I was planning to post
           the same link with the same tagline.  need to get out more.
        \_ If you've been to Russia as a tourist, you'll be grateful for
           simply bad, inconsiderate service.  Service staff there manage
           to take the fight to the customer.  -John
2004/7/20-21 [Reference/BayArea] UID:32389 Activity:nil
7/20    SF Shakespeare Festival's Free Shakespeare in the Park has begun.
        The show this summer is Twelfth Night.  We're starting in Pleasanton,
        then hitting Cupertino, Oakland, and San Francisco (up in the
        Presidio).  I'm music director for it, and it's really come out as
        a great show.  And (did I mention?), it's free!
        http://www.sfshakes.org
        Bring some wine, bring a blanket... --scotsman
2004/7/20-21 [Uncategorized] UID:32390 Activity:high
7/20    If any of you are in the UK the first weekend in August, or live out
        there, I'll be poledancing at boat party on the Thames.
        Details here:
        http://www.reverberations.co.uk
        (click the tiny link that says "the boat party")
        -- lye
        \_ What kind of music?  I have some friends there whom I could
           send by.  -John
           \_ All kinds of house music, although the first boat party they
              did feature a lot of rock in the mix too.  Here's some pictures
              from that one:
              http://www.reverberations.co.uk/theboatparty
        \_ Uhhhh..  Am I the only one for whom "Eli Pole Dancing" is up there
           on the list of the last things I _ever_ want to see?
           \_ Hey, that was a pretty funny edit.  Who's fault was it? --lye
2004/7/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32391 Activity:nil
7/20    Debunking the 59 Deceits:
        http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/20/18926/6104
2004/7/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32392 Activity:very high
7/20    Wilson finally shows on the News Hour: Senator Kit Bond
        directly calls him a liar.
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1175208/posts
        \_ Bond calls him a liar. Wilson refutes with reports. Bond resorts
           to semantics and long-windedness to try to out-time Wilson.
           Wilson continues to refute with documents and facts.  Bond demands
           that Wilson make an apology to the Pres. Wilson again refers to
           documents and facts.  Bell rings. Winner, Wilson, with dignity.
           \_ Except he is wrong and a liar:
              A scam and a sham
              http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040701-085559-3349r.htm
              But you are right... maybe Wilson knows more than the Senate
              and MI6.
              \_ "[A]n inquiring Iraqi official had visited Niger in 1999"
                 and had a meeting where the subject of Uranium was never
                 discussed.  How do you go from a trade meeting that never
                 talked about uranium to the assertion that the Iraqis were
                 trying to buy it from Niger?  Hey, check this out: several
                 Japanese diplomats met with North Korean diplomats recently.
                 The North Koreans then allowed abducted Japanese to return
                 to Japan. How did that happen? According to your logic,
                 it must have been because Japan agreed to give nuke-tek to
                 North Korea.
              \_ Wilson is assuredly more trustworthy than a bunch of
                 career politicians. As for MI6, didn't these guys invent
                 the term "disinformation?"
        \_ http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/4885826.html
           The funniest thing is that Wilson was right all along and Bush
           was wrong. Why are you guys trying to drag this out? Iraq never
           bought uranium from Niger.
           \_ LOL talk about tautological.  You cite the liar in order
              to defend his earlier statements??? Are you on crack?
              From his letter even... 'I never claimed to have
              "debunked" the allegation that Iraq was
              seeking uranium from Africa.'
              \_ Tautological is saying he's a liar because he's been called
                 a liar.
2004/7/20-21 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:32393 Activity:very high
7/20    Berger investigated for taking classified reports
        http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040719-112728-6891r.htm
        "...he had taken from classified anti-terror documents he
        reviewed at the National Archives by sticking them
        in his jacket and pants."
        This guy was Clinton's and Kerry's NSA (equivalent to Rice)
        \_ Again, even though you erased it, what's really interesting about
           all of this is why this is suddenly "news" when the investigation
           has been going on since last December.
           \_ how is the timing relevant in any way?  This guy stole and
              lost documents from the National Archives and you are
              worried about the timing.  Congress had known about Abu
              Ghraib for half a year before it came out, and???
              \_ And you screamed bloody murder about it all being leaked
                 out in time to be an election-year issue.  If that was
                 politicking, then so the hell is this.
                 \_ I don't know who 'you' refers to.  I though the whole
                    thing was overblown, nothing more than hazing of
                    terrorists.  Again, when is a good time to release
                    a former NSA stole and lost documents while the
                    9/11 commission was ongoing?  I don't think you have
                    an answer.  I can't believe you have the
                    audacity to worry about the 'timing'.
                    \_ Pshaw all around.  The NSA scandal and the Abu Graib
                       scandal should have been revealed at the same time:
                       as soon as they were discovered.  How do you like my
                       answer now?
                       \_ Abu Graib was revealed when it was discovered.  I
                          remember seeing it mentioned months before the
                          pictures came out.  It was only the pictures that
                          suddenly put it on the front page.
                       \_ You simply reinforce my opinion that to you
                          what matters is style over substance.  You could
                          care less that someone violated the law and
                          effectively interfered with a Congressional
                          investigation.  In summary, you are unethical and
                          choose to do defend like individuals.
                          \_ Is that the impression you got? Let me disabuse
                             you of it: If he violated the law and interefered
                             with said investigation beyond a reasonable doubt,
                             I not only care, I will be happy to see him
                             punished. Now pay attention here, because this is
                             where it gets tricky: at the same time that I
                             agree he should be punished, I _also_ understand
                             that the timing of this release of information is
                             of particular use to the Repubs in their efforts
                             to discredit the Kerry campaign.  See that? Two
                             beliefs, one pro-punishment and the other
                             rather cynical, held at exactly the same time in
                             my brain.  You should try it some time. It's a
                             kick.
2017/09/21 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/21    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:July:20 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>