Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:July:19 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2004/7/19 [Uncategorized] UID:32341 Activity:high 100%like:32275 57%like:32340
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        \_ Stupid censor!  Please don't mess with my mushroom cloud!
2004/7/19 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:32342 Activity:very high
7/19    Dear motd spy, who is nuking the motd? ok thx
        \_ I used to nuke the nuker but that never got anywhere. So now I
           just mess with his mushroom cloud.
        \_ Dear prude: go and die please.  ok thx.
           \_ Huh?
           \_ seriously, someone's been nuking the motd this wknd. it should
              be considered a squishable offense
              \_ Yeah well, the motd is stupid and deserves it.  !the nuker
        \_ I'm nuking the motd to make Kais Motd useless     -revenge is sweet
           \_ I just finished 'nuking the motd' and I'm five pounds lighter!
           \_ And they say that kids today don't have goals.
           \_ dear revenge guy, why do you hate Kais Motd?            -kchang
        \_ I drank too much during my friend's wedding, came home,
           fell asleep and woke up late in the evening with a
           big hangover.  I checked the motd and it was full of
           witless political rantings, and it gave me a big
           headache, so I decided to nuked it.  I felt much
           better immediately.  Nuking the motd beats Tylenol
           hands down.  But later, some bad boy messed with
           my mushroom cloud, making it upside down.
           Fortunately, my girl friend was home by then, so
           we went and had hot wet sex all night long.
           \_ Your mom got home with refills for the liquid hand soap, eh?
2004/7/19 [Consumer/Camera] UID:32343 Activity:insanely high
7/19    Motd Photo Experts: I'm thinking about getting a 28-105 F3.5-4.5
        USMII lens to replace the 18-55 lens that came with my Digital
        Rebel (http://tinyurl.com/yrctn for b&h link)
        I want a longer zoom (as opposed to wide angle) because I'm
        usually photographing birds and its hard to get close enough to
        get a good shot with the 18-55.
        Does anyone have this lens? Is it a good buy? tia.
        \_ I just bought one and know where to get another locally
           at a good price. nwrite me -shac
        \_ A few follow up questions:
           1) If I should be looking at a longer zoom, what about a
              55-200: http://tinyurl.com/5z7v3 (b&h)
           2) Right now I have a 1A (UV?) filter and a separate circular
              polarizer (I was told I should use this when shooting
              outside in order to prevent wash out). I have been reading
              that using two filters in series isn't a good idea. Is
              there some filter that I can get which combines the 1A and
              the cp or does something similar?
              \_ If you're going to use a polarizer when shooting moving
                 objects, and the lens lets you mount filters at the front,
                 make sure you get a lens whose front element doesn't rotate
                 while focusing.  Otherwise, every time you re-focus you'll
                 have to re-adjust the polarizer.  I have a cheap Tamron zoom
                 whose front element doesn't rotate, and then an expensive
                 Nikkor of the same zoom range whose front element does rotate.
                 About using two filters being bad, I think what you read
                 refers to vignetting, which is usually a problem when shooting
                 wide-angle.  Since you're shooting telephoto, I don't think
                 it'll be a problem for you.  --- yuen
        \_ This is a very good lens for the price.
        \_ blah blah.
        \_ I would still get the 18-55mm zoom lens instead for two reasons:
           1. wide angle is 200% more "useful" than telephoto lens. 28mm on
              the short end is a bit too long for dSLR (smiliar to 50mm on a
              35mm, and take my word for it).
           2. I am not a bird shooter, but from my limited experiences, unless
              you are only going to shoot bird in that big cage down in San
              Diego Zoo, you want something longer than 105mm (even with
              multiplication factor considered).  PERSONALLY, I would suggest
              you get a 70-200mm instead.  That lens would give you enough
              reach for now, and non-USM version is very cheap for its
              quality. Birds are hard to shoot, and unless you have
              experience with them, I would still suggest you go down in
              San Diego Zoo and try to shoot them in the cage first :p
              If you have money to burn, get a regular 300mm non-zoom.
              That lens is very very well regarded.
            \_ Thanks for the advice. My digital rebel came with the
               18-55, and I'm not thinking about selling it. I wanted
               to get the 28-105 as a day to day replacement for the
               for the 18-55.
               \_ you won't able to.  Just get a seperate lens, 70-200mm
                  would give you enough reach at the long end, and
                  relatively flexiable enough to be used in other occations.
               I agree that birds are pretty tough to shoot. Right now
               I'm practicing mostly on birds in my yard and geese/ducks
               at a pond near work.
           \_ The OP is using a dSLR, with multiplication factor of 1.6
              So, while your lens recommendation is good for 35mm camera,
              it's not so good for Digital Rebel.  Further, OP is not a
              photo geek (yet).  And only photo geeks buy prime lenses
              nowadays.  Both 85mm and 105mm is a bit too short for
              shooting bird even with the 1.6X factored in.
                        owner of 20mm, 28mm, 50mm, 85mm, 500mm and 2 zooms.
           \_ to OP:  if you realy want to shoot bird, you need a lens which
              for it. You can't have a lens which is good for casual shooting
              AND be useful for bird shooting as well.  Stick with a 18mm-55mm
              and get a long lens (around 200mm) and you will be good to go.
        \_ Consider getting a 85mm or a 105mm prime, or even the cheap 50mm
           prime. The 50mm beats the pants off the 18-55mm, especially when
           you are taking flower pictures. If you are tight on budget, the 28-105
           is an excellent lens. Optically it is noticibly better than the kit
           lens that came with the rebel. If you have the $$$, I would recommend
           a more telephoto zoom, like 70-200mm, etc.
        \_ I'm not a Canon user.  Before you buy any telephoto lens for you
           digital Rebel, you should check whether or not the's lens' widest
           aperature setting at the long end of its focal length range works
           with the AF system on your camera.  For 28-105 f/3.5-4.5, you should
           check if f/4.5 works with your AF.  This is important since you're
           shooting moving objects far away.  If you're shooting dead birds,
           however, it's okay to lose AF.  --- yuen
           \_ Insert obHuntingJoke
2004/7/19 [Recreation/Humor] UID:32344 Activity:nil
7/19    Wow, Tom the Dancing Bug is funny for this first time in months!
        http://www.ucomics.com/tomthedancingbug/index.phtml
        \_ no it's not
           \_ Eh.  I chuckled when I read it.  For the last 2 or 3 months
              everytime I read the comic it only gave me kind of a vauge
              feeling of emabrasment for the author.
              \_ I find it very often funny. Vive la difference
              \_ so why do you waste your time?
                 \_ It's on my daily strips page.  He used to be VERY
                    funny every week, but recently he seems to have gotten
                    election fever.  He's more interested in being
                    anti-Bush that being interesting.
                    \_ Kind of like tom "i can't draw and I'm never funny, but
                       i'm too lazy and
                       stupid to write editorials" tomorow.
                       \_ No, I don't recall Tom Tommorow ever having been
                          funny.  He's always been an embarassment.

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        \_ Stupid censor!  Please don't mess with my mushroom cloud!
           \_ He wants to nuke Australia.
2004/7/19 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32345 Activity:very high
7/19    So we lied about the size of the mass graves...
        http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1263830,00.html
        But we've set our goals high and hope to turn those lies true!
        http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/08/29/afghanistan.mass.graves
        \_ Are we supposed to infer that you support Al-Qaida from this?
           I.e. "Well, Saddam Hussein/Al-Qaida didn't kill THAT many people,
           and we have been killing a lot of Al-Qaida insurgents, so therefore
           BushCo/America is bad." Boy, we sure need more people like you
           around...
           \_ The inferences made on the motd never cease to amaze me.  What
              about the more rational "I don't like that we decry the mass
              graves in Iraq only to find that 1) we turned a blind eye when
              they had happened and 2) we are again turning a blind eye to
              the same actions in another place."  If you're going to condemn
              an action, and especially if you use it as a causus belli, you
              need to condemn it across the board.
              \_ Which is not how the original was posited. The original
                 was constructed to say that A was not as terrible as
                 we had initially intended and that we are doing B so
                 that means that the enemy isn't really that evil and
                 we are evil because we have allowed the same to happen
                 to our enemy. Also, you are painting too broad a stroke
                 here. The causes belli was not mass killings, but mass
                 killings of supposed innocents. The U.S. has always been
                 engaged in mass killings, whether it be Germans, Japanese,
                 or North Koreans. Sanctioning mass killings in the name of
                 security is what War is all about. If you don't like it
                 feel free to be a pacifist. However, idealism does not
                 get you far in the realm of the realpolitik.
                 \_ First off, the humanitarian reason for invading was well
                    down the list, but has since emerged as the only reason
                    left standing.  Second, in our history you can count on
                    one hand the number of times we have actually used our
                    military for humanitarian reasons.  This is not to say we
                    shouldn't (I personally think we don't do it enough, nor
                    do we have any division with the proper training to do so),
                    but it is an historical anomoly nonetheless, and one that
                    we're taking a nosedive on.  Third, the premise that this
                    was done in the name of security, or that it has done
                    anything to improve security, is well in doubt.
                    \_ On one hand?  I don't think you can count *any* events
                       where we used our military for humanitarian reasons.  By
                       its very nature, the military inflicted death upon
                       another people is not a humanitarian act.  I want you to
                       name that handful of so-called humanitarian uses of US
                       military power.  You can't.  There are none.
                       \_ Bosnia, Haiti, Somalia (supposedly).
                          \_ Bosnia: indiscriminate bombing from 30,000 feet.
                             \_ The Bosnians were grateful for the assistance.
                                We probably saved them from being wiped out.
                             Haiti: we installed or reinstalled dictators at
                                    the point of a gun 2 or 3 times in the last
                                    few years.
                             \_ Wrong. Go reread your history of Haiti. Unless
                                you mean 40 years when you say "few." The
                                only person installed in the last decade
                                by the US military was Aristide, who was
                                the democratically elected leader of Haiti.
                             Somalia: we got 18 dead Americans, no people fed,
                                    a huge PR mess, and showed the world, once
                                    again, that the US is a paper tiger.
                             There are no peaceful uses for military power.
                             \_ How about the numerous times US Marines
                                have rescued Americans in trouble overseas?
           \_ No, we are supposed to infer that op hates America.
        \_ The mass graves weren't big enough for you?
        \_ So we're going to ship the bodies from Afganistan to Iraq?
        \_ So Mazar-e-Sharif, a location of a prison uprising that took 2-3
           days to stop and killed a CIA agent would not expect to have
           resulted in prisoner deaths?
2004/7/19-20 [Transportation/Car] UID:32346 Activity:high 54%like:11910
7/19    what is a good home insurance for east bay?
        \_ AAA
        \_ My uncle has State Farm.
        \_ Liberty Mutual
2004/7/19-20 [ERROR, uid:32347, category id '18005#8.125' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:32347 Activity:insanely high
7/19    http://www.moveon.org/fox
        MoveOn files complaint with FTC over "Fair and Balanced"
        \_ Fox News, you news source for evil.
        \_ Fox News, your voice for evil.
           \_ chicom troll? is that you?
              \_ It's from the Simpsons.
              \_ no, but i do wish Nazi was a bit more efficient
                 \_ yes! kill all jew!  then muslim brother loves us!
        \_ Very Interesting... But Stupid!

The Motd has been reversed
\_ It's probably not kchang, but I'm ready for another squishing!
   So, who is it?
           \_ I just finnished writing an outraged letter to moveon.  I've
              given a lot of money to those bastards!
        \_ i think Fox's new ads say "Informed. Powerful. Huge Penis." - danh
           \_ YOUR PENIS IS SO BIG AND TAX FREE!
        \_ Moveon should be more worried about their own questionable
           financial dealings than how Fox News advertises themselves.
           \_ "Questionable"?  You mean George Soros?  There's nothing
              questionable there.  Or are you talking about 527 status?
              or are you just ranting to see yourself type?  Moveon is
              exactly what it says it is.  Fox is not.
              \_ 527 specifically but since you mention Soros, yes, him too.
                 And what ranting?  You're the one blowing froth.  I'm simply
                 mentioning that a .org with their background should clean
                 up their own backyard before complaining too loudly about
                 a neighbor's.  Fox will always be there as long as they get
                 advertisers.  Moveon is a 527 which can vanish with the
                 stroke of a pen with all the other 527s which exist only to
                 skirt the campaign finance reform laws.
2004/7/19 [Uncategorized] UID:32348 Activity:nil Edit_by:auto Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2004/7/19 [Uncategorized] UID:32349 Activity:nil Edit_by:auto Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2004/7/19 [Computer/SW/OS] UID:32350 Activity:nil Edit_by:auto Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2004/7/19 [Uncategorized] UID:32351 Activity:nil Edit_by:auto Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2004/7/19 [Computer/SW/OS] UID:32352 Activity:nil Edit_by:auto Entry has been invalidated. Access denied. 2004/7/19 [Computer/Companies/Apple] UID:32353 Activity:nil Edit_by:auto Entry has been invalidated. Access denied.
2004/7/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iran, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Others] UID:32354 Activity:very high
7/19    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3908245.stm
        We be invading Iran next.
        \_ FOUR MORE YEAH!
        \_ Pay no attention to the Saudi behind the curtain.
        \_ By definition, this is crying wolf.
           \_ How so?  Tell us the names of the 3 "axis of evil" countries.
              \_ By definition, yermom is a slut.
                 \_ Thanks for adding nothing and proving me right.
2004/7/19-20 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:32355 Activity:kinda low
7/19    Why Indiana is a stupid dumbass state:
        http://www.mccsc.edu/time.html
                \_ This is fucking stupid
        \_ This is fucking stupid
           \_ Although the project does a pretty good job explaining the
              stupidity.
2004/7/19-20 [Reference/Law, Politics] UID:32356 Activity:very high
7/19    Tomorrow is the 60th anniversary of Operation Valkyrie.  -John
        \_ The plot to kill Hilter right?
           \_ SHHH!  Don't say the magic word!
              \_ Voldemort!
           \_ Godwin's Law!  Godwin's Law!
           \_ I wish some people would actually read Godwin's law and stop
              mindlessly referring to it.  I know the above are just joking
              but really.  Ok, it's been a long day and I'm grumpy, I know
              that, but please stop screaming Godwin.  It's ok to talk about
              Hitler and the Nazis without invoking Godwin.
2004/7/19 [Politics/Domestic/HateGroups] UID:32357 Activity:nil
7/19    Anti-protest protesters?  Is this a form of censorship?
        http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040719/D83TT7UO0.html
        \_ Are you really that stupid?
           \_ What?  --op
              \_ What he's saying is, "How could that possibly be a form
                 of CENSORSHIP?  You can't really be that dumb, you must
                 be joking." He gave you a way out op, and you fell right
                 on your face.
                 \_ A way out of what?  --op
        \_ There is a long tradition of right wingers getting together
           and attacking and otherwise terrorizing anyone who disagrees
           with them. See the history of the American Legion, VFW, hardhats
           beating up hippies, The Klan, etc. This is just a pathetic
           attempt at more of the same, but since it will fail, it doesn't
           qualify as "censorship." A more accurate term would be harassment.
           \_ Name some more random groups.  The foreign legion is a branch
              of the French military.  Do you mean the American Legion?  And
              regarding the whole "right wingers crushing dissent" thing,
              try walking into a given grouping of Cal students and saying
              "I kind of like Bush" just for fun.  -John
              \_ Yeah, American legion, thanks corrected. Do you honestly
                 think you would be beaten for saying that? I really doubt
                 it.
           \_ The Klan is right wing? The one and only member of the Senate
              who was in the Klan is a Dem.
           \_ You know, you're right--I belonged to some pseudo-young
              republican "debate" organization in high school, before I
              I realized that they were a bunch of "me too" morons.  It took
              at least a year of Cal to realize that the people they had this
              terrible enmity towards were equally idiotic.  So in the long
              run, one can hope it balances out... -John
           \_ The Foreign Legion?  The FRENCH Foreign Legion?  What's the VFW
              and Hard Hats?  I need more than that for a google search.  The
              Klan isn't a right wing group.  It's a hate group no different
              from other racist hate groups of any color.
              \_ Try "Know Nothings."
              \_ VFW == Veterans of Foreign Wars. I meant the American Legion.
                 Corrected. If you don't know about the history of Vietnam
                 War protests, do a search.
                 http://chnm.gmu.edu/hardhats/homepage.html
2004/7/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32358 Activity:very high
7/19    Well, just as predicted, here's the Right spin on the Allawi summary
        executions as provided by Rushbo:
        LIMBAUGH: The Australian Broadcasting Corporation is reporting that
        the new Iraqi Prime Minister Allawi has executed six insurgents in
        front of witnesses, wanting to send a clear message to these people.
        Good. Hubba-hubba.

        Now that's right. Now, you're going to have -- you're going to have
        -- you're going to have some of the powerless fearful Left in this
        country saying see, this is what Bush has done. Bush did this, no due
        process, they just kill them when you find them. We can't -- America's
        going to be hated in the world, blah blah blah blah. Well, the Iraqis
        are handling their own affairs.
        \_ It was just a fraternity hazing!
        \_ from the motd archive
          <begin>\_ You know, even if it were true, Republicans would say they
                    got what they deserved, Iraqis are finally learning how to
                    take care of their own country, etc.  In fact, I bet that's
                    what's being posted in the freeper boards right now.
                    \_ you bet?  you can't either bother to check?  you're just
                       going to make it up and pretend its true?<end>
           \_ So where's the prediction part?
              \_ The "prediction" part is about the right-wing spin/
                 interpretation, not a prediction of the actual act of Allawi
                 executing insurgents.
                 \_ So you predicted that the right wing would say what we
                    always say?  That it's none of our damned business?  Wow,
                    who put you on the RNC fax list?  Golly.
        \_ As predicted?  Uhm, I guess.  And if we had moved in to arrest the
           guy and put him on trial you'd say what?  That it's an internal
           Iraqi affair and we should let them deal with it instead of imposing
           our culture on theirs?  Whatever.
           \_ He's been on our payroll long enough that we could claim him as
              our own...  Iraqis would likely love to see Allawi on trial.
              It might actually show us standing by our principles for once..
              \_ You have your Iraqis confused.  The INC guy got discredited
                 for making too much noise about the corrupt UN Stuff For Oil
                 program.
                 \_ Do a little homework.  Allawi is long tied to the CIA.
                    \_ Everyone is tied to the CIA.  Half of the Soviet Union
                       was on the CIA payroll.  So what?  You're probably on
                       their payroll and don't even know it.  Your Professors
                       certainly were.  If being on the CIA payroll, which you
                       haven't proven but I'll accept because it doesn't
                       matter, was such a big deal then you'd really have to
                       start at the UN if you wanted to clean house.  He's an
                       Iraqi dealing with things in the Iraqi way.
                       \_ But...I thought we were bringing democracy to
                          Iraq?  BTW, as previously discussed with supporting
                          URLs, Allawi was also one of Saddam's killers up
                          until the late '70s.
                          \_ We brought democracy to Iraq.  Now it's their
                             problem.  What's your point?
2004/7/19-20 [Reference/Tax] UID:32359 Activity:high
7/19    How much roughly does H&R Block charge for preparing an individual tax
        return for a couple with two income, a few ESPP sales, a few stock
        dividends, and a newly-purchased home under mortgage, with all
        documents available?
        \_ H&R block is for people with very small, simple tax returns who
           want to reduce their hassle from epsilon down to zero(me).  If you
           actually expect to have your return done right the first time,
           with all the deductions you should get, and this adds up to
           real money, just forget it.
        \_ Call them.
        \_ As of 4 years ago, they charged by the forms filed.  1040EZ alone
           was like $30.  Schedule A costed extra, and schedule C and etc...
2004/7/19-20 [Recreation/Dating] UID:32360 Activity:nil
7/19    Dear illicit sex guy who posted on December 2002, whatever happened
        to the relationship? Please post a follow up. ok thx.
2004/7/19-20 [Uncategorized] UID:32361 Activity:nil
7/19    Is there an etymological connection between Aladin and Bin Laden
        (they both end in similar sounding suffix)? I mean, they're both
        middle eastern and all.
        \_ The next incarnation is Caeladan.
        \_ Let's go kick Aladin's ass!
        \_ it's spelled aladdin
2004/7/19-20 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:32362 Activity:moderate
7/19    Is there a unix text based MSN messenger client?
        I wanna chat with hot girls but company has firewall.
        \_ How would a text based client help you?  The ports are still the
           same.
           \_ yea, but I can telnet out through gateway.
        \_ centericq - never used it though
2004/7/19-20 [Health/Men] UID:32363 Activity:high
7/19    What's the average length of an Asian erect penis?
        \_ Laden or unladen?
        \_ What's the average length of bin Ladin's penis?
           \_ My name is bin Laden, not bin Ladin!  And I have big penis.
                Much bigger than wimpy George Bush's.
              \_ George Bush is not Asian.
                 \_ Then how did he father William Hung?
                 \_ G.W. Bush is clearly a mongoloid.
                    \_ Racist, what do you have against Mongolians?  That is
                       so not PC!
                        \_ Girlie man!
        \_ It's not the size that matters my son, it's how long you can
           stay hard.
           \_ That's what my wife tells me, but I think she's just being nice.
              \_ That's what your wife tells me, too.
        \_ 4 inches, 3 minutes.
            \_ 7200 RPM.
               \_ Uhm. Ouch.
            \_ what do people mean when they say "X mintues"?
               \_ They mean 551 557 906 200 X times one period of oscillation
                  of radiation from the hyperfine splitting of the ground state
                  of the caesium 133 atom.  -SI #1 fan
               \_ That 5 mana will go for 5 minutes, 6 mana for 6 minutes, etc.
            \_ 4 inches, serious?  Guess I'm not below average after all.
        \_ Mine is 12+" -- William (Well) Hung
        \_ http://the-penis-website.com/size2.html (Not work safe)
           4 to 6 inches, this site says.
2004/7/19-20 [Transportation/Airplane, Computer/Networking] UID:32364 Activity:high
7/19    Cringley's plan to use WiFi in the Sky:
        http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20040715.html
        \_ Who exactly is this guy?
           \_ uh, you dont know? I had always kind of assumed that posting
              "I, Cringley" articles was like posting links to slashdot
              \_ I always assumed he was some guy reporting on pseudo geek
                 news or something from the article titles but, no, not really.
                 Should I care what this guy says about anything?  Does he have
                 some fantastic track record for predicting technology trends
                 or is he just trendy?
                 \_ No one has a fantastic record for predicting technology
                    trends.
2004/7/19-20 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:32365 Activity:high
7/19    Why SpamAssassin is totally doomed:
        http://cockeyed.com/lessons/viagra/viagra.html
        \_ This was already posted, and it was stupid the first time.
           \_ AFAIK, this is the third time someone posts this link.
              (first one was months ago)
        \_ I don't know about you, but I found Spamassassin does a pretty
           good job as it is.
        \_ anyone who tried to combine Chinese Word segmentation methods
           and spamassassin so it can be used to filter out Chinese junk?
2004/7/19-21 [Reference/Military] UID:32366 Activity:insanely high
7/19    IAF (Indian Air Force)'s SU30 kicked USAF's F15C's arse in combat
        exercise in India:
        http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-iaf-usaf-su30-f15-article01.html
        \_ I thought the point with an F-15 is you point the missiles from
           well out of visual range and run away at high speed while the
           tracking computer takes care of the rest.
        \_ time to offshore the air force. W00t!
        \_ dude, India has an airforce? I mean, most of the Indians I know
           are so myopic that they can barely drive a car and all...
        \_ Cope India '04 is old news.
        \_ This is not surprising.  The F-15 took to the air in 1972, the C
           variant in 1979.  The Su-27, on which the Su-30 is based, took to
           air along with the MiG-29 in the mid-80's, while the Su-30 itself
           first flew in 1989.  The F-15 in all variants is widely held to be
           at best equal if not inferior to the Su-30, MiG-29 and other more
           modern fighters.  The F-15 is less maneuverable for engagement
           inside visual range and also loses BVR where the Su-30 can track
           a target and launch a missle well before the F-15.  --Jon
        \_ did the USAF outsource their pilots? Seriously, there were
           reports on the unpatriotic public tv stations about russian pilot
           superiority as well. US pilots don't train that much fighting the
           old-fashioned "dog fights". It costs too much. USAF depends on
           firing missiles from far away to kill planes. the russian planes
           were very good as well. they don't need to be pampered like
           US planes.
           \_ I thought I saw a statistic somewhere that BVR kills only
              account for a tiny fraction of total US air-to-air victories.
              In most cases, you still need to come head-to-head and
              visually identify your adversary.
              \_ During Vietnam, the Sparrow radar guided missle had less
                 than a 10% kill rate.  As the Grumman F-4 II did not have
                 a cannon until very late in Vietnam, well, do the math.
                 Pilots in the F-4 were getting 2 MiG shot down for every
                 F-4 lost to enemy fire.
                 \_ I thought F-4s were getting their butts kicked by the
                    MiGs until the Navy instituted Top Gun school. Also,
                    they had short-range missles at their disposal, not
                    just Sparrows.
                 \_ ...Most of which was ground fire.  -John
           \_ The usual rule has been that US planes have better avionics,
              such as radio/radar/location/mapping/etc compared to Soviet
              and other fighters of similar range, but lose to the same
              fighters inside visual range due to lack of maneuverability
              and lack of pilot training on ACM.  Example, the Soviet
              air force had vectored thrust in 1990 -- USAF is just getting
              around to using it now.
        \_ The F-15C is the Air Force's "Best Fighter?"  By what metric?
           Sheesh.
           \_ By the metric of "planes actually in service".  F-22 is not
              scheduled to have an operational squadron till 2005.  F-35 is
              even farther away.  F-16 vs F-15 could be interesting. ditto
              for F-14 and F-18.  But, given improvements in avionics, and
              its single task focus, the -C (and the two seater -D) are
              the USAF's primary assets for air superiority.
              \_ Yeah, F-15C is the designated air-superiority plane. If you
                 look at the history of the F-16 versus F-15 it's interesting.
                 The F-16 does seem to be basically superior except that it
                 can't match the speed or ceiling of F-15 for interceptions.
                 It seems like in theory the F-16 could be better if it had the
                 air-to-air focus of USAF. It's also a lot cheaper.
                 \_ some other numbers:
                    thrust/wt at max takeoff weight: F-15: .73, F-16: .77
                    Wingloading (lb/ft^2): F-15: 112, F-16: 85
                    The F-15 and F-16 are at their base excellent platforms
                    for air superiority, just under different conditions.
                    The F-15 was designed as an all-weather day/night fighter.
                    The F-16 as a day fighter which, to appease certain groups
                    within the USAF, also got pushed into air-ground strike
                    roles.  The F-16 wins over the F-15 in maneuverability,
                    smaller RCS, price, and acceleration.  The F-15 wins in
                    top speed, max altitude, range/combat persistence, rate
                    of climb, and combat payload.  The F-16 also pioneered
                    fly-by-wire, HOTAS, radar/HUD integration, and negative
                    stability.  It was in many ways a guinea pig for new
                    technologies, whereas the F-15 was more traditional.
                    F-15 pilots with the one exception of F-15E pilots
                    spend all of their time doing air-air scenario training
                    whereas F-16 pilots all split their flight training
                    between air-air, air-ground.  The F-15 is an interceptor,
                    the big gun.  The F-16 is the inclose knife fighter.
                    \_ I'm not an expert on airplanes.  What exactly does the
                       Wingloading number mean?  Is it plane weight divided by
                       wing area?  I'm guessing the plane with the lower number
                       would have greater ability to climb at a given airspeed
                       but singe a larger wing means more drag, which plane has
                       better climbing ability when they don't have excess
                       speed to bleed off?
              \_ I thought there were several models of F15 after the -C?
                 \_ The F-15D is the two seater version of the -C.
                    The F-15E Strike Eagle is the ground attack/fighter
                    multi-role compromise.  It does well, but due to the -15's
                    optimization as a highly maneuverable air surperiority
                    fighter, it's somewhat hard to control at low altitude
                    highspeed due to turbulence in those conditions.
                    There are also export version of the -15 to countries
                    like Japan, Israel and Saudi Arabia.
                    highspeed due to turbulence in those conditions.  This
                    is also a problem with the F-16 in certain a-g strike
                    roles, again at low-altitude.  There are also export
                    version of the F-15 to countries like Japan, Israel and
                    Saudi Arabia.
        \_ The article says that the USAF faced numerical disadvantage in
           the exercises. I don't think there's a single nation that can
           pose that problem in real combat. As always, numerical
           superiority helps a lot. There won't be much dogfighting
           against F117s supported by AWACs.
           \_ Various people on former Soviet miliary:
              Quantity has a certain quality all its own.
              \_ Dean Ing, "Systemic Shock", Ace books, 1981.  Look up
                 "Wall of Lenin".  -John
           \_ BTW Indians just signed a contract to buy Isreali AWACS systems
              mounted on russian transport planes. China is also close to
              signing a deal for buying Russian AWACS systems (which are
              supposedly inferior to Israeli ones but US objected to the
              Phacon sale to China).
              \_ The Israeli should name it Phalcon instead of Phacon.
                 Sounds nicer.
        \_ Its common knowledge that USAF sandbags these demos.  It
           really means very little.
           \_ What do you mean by "sandbags?"  I've never heard that term
              before.
        \_ next guy who fires on our planes gets shelled with something larger
                \_ Intentionally appearing weaker than you really are. I
                   think the term comes from poker:
                   http://www.fact-index.com/s/sa/sandbagging__poker_.html
                   \_ I think it comes from horse racing, where you would
                      tie bags of sand to your horse in trials to make
                      it appear slower.                  \_ corrected typo
        \_ Holy nerdfest Batman!  Where did all the armchair generals come from?
                \_ do you live in Little India, errr, I mean, Sunnyvale?
        \_ I love how this troll was brought back sans verbal diarrea that
           originally followed it.
           \_ the wonders of the magic motd archive.
              \_ What is a wonder is that someone is deeply disturbed enough
                 to invest that much energy in the motd.  This means you,
                 kchang.
                 \_ You shouldn't be so hard on kchang.  His thing, with
                    some development, could have more useful applications
                    than the motd.  Web-based version control, for example.
                      -- ilyas
                        \_ why dont you tell us about the stars you
                           frigging kchang sympathizer?
                           \_ Uh, w00t?
                    \_ Do you know each other?
                       \_ We never met.  We exchanged a few emails. -- ilyas
        \_ I am surprised that their saying that an upgraded Mig-21 could be
           a formidable adversary for F-15c. Can an upgrade program really
           improve that much the old vintage piece of junk that Mig-21 is?
           If yes, the engineers at Mig had done a pretty darn good job.
           \_ first of all, Mig 21 was not a junk at first place. Secondly,
              I think when they talk about "upgrade," they are really talking
              about builing a new plane based upon an old design, no?
2017/09/21 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/21    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:July:19 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>