Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:July:13 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
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2004/7/13 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers, Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:32244 Activity:high
7/12    I just upgraded to Firefox .9 on FreeBSD 4 using a binary package,
        but it's got a ton of library dependencies on slightly older .so
        files.  Is there any way I can tell the linker to just "try your
        best" and update the links to whatever's available?  The only
        thing that's ever worked in this case is installing from ports or
        while (sane) ln -s libFoo-1.8.so.200 libFoo-1.8.so.201
        \_ Dunno about "best try", but you could always do a make world
           and portupgrade -a (assuming you installed that from ports.) -John
2004/7/13 [Finance/Investment, Computer/SW] UID:32245 Activity:low
7/12    dear csua finance expert, can I buy foreign securities without
        ADR?  Most local brokerage firm here(HK) disallow US persons to
        open account, is it bec. they don't want to file to IRS
        themselves?
2004/7/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32246 Activity:insanely high
7/12    Joe Wilson's allegations were plastered over paper's front pages
        for days and received extensive TV coverage.  Wilson was identified
        by NPR and the media as Kerry's de facto campaign spokesman.  Now
        that he's been proven a liar by the Senate and MI6 where is coverage?
        \_ Proven a liar...  You're pushing it a bit.  Pat Robertson
        \_ Proven a liar...  You're pushing it a bit.  Pat Roberts
           opines in an appendix of the Senate Intelligence report,
           and suddenly Wilson is a shameless liar.  Never mind that
           he was right.
           \_ Ok you are right and MI6 and the senate are wrong.  Any
              other pontifications?
                \_ MI6 is often wrong.  Note that they just withdrew their
                   Iraqi WMD report because it was wrong.
                   http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=10596
                   As for the Senate...  -John
              http://talonnews.com/news/2004/july/0713_wilson_plame_intel.shtml
              http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB62OSSGWD.html
        \_ News flash!  Anonymous motd crank doesn't like Kerry!
           \_ Attack the man, not the message.  Good way to prove your
              point and disprove any allegations.  How'd you do in
              Rhetoric 1A?
              \_ As opposed to the hatchet job on wilson?
                 \_ It isn't a hatchet job if it's true.  The seriousness of
                    the charge can not be so easily dismissed.
                    \_ Sure it can.
        \_ what did he allege, i am not paying attention.
            \_ this is the guy who went to nigeria to investigate iraqi
               attempts to acquire uranium ore and the same guy with the cia
               wife that got her ID exposed.  he then lied about his work in
               nigeria, his wife's role in getting him, a partisan democrat,
               the job in nigeria, and a whole bunch of other things.
               \_ Niger, not nigeria. The rest of your charges are all
                  unsubstantiated Right Wing smears.
                   \_ Ok you are right and MI6 and the senate are wrong.
                      Any other pontifications?
                  http://talonnews.com/news/2004/july/0713_wilson_plame_intel.shtml
                  http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB62OSSGWD.html
              \_ I don't know his politics, but previous to this mess, he
                 gave (unapologetically, like most people playing the system)
                 to both parties.  (e.g. he have $1000 to both bush and gore
                 in 2000) -phuqm
        \_ Don't forget the press crucifying Novak for stating his wife's name.
           Now that we know she suggested him for the job and all the denials
           were partisan, where are the apologies to Novak?
           \_ Not for stating his wife's name, but for identifying her as a
              CIA agent.  federal offences deserve a little crucifixion.
2004/7/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32247 Activity:nil
7/12    My perspective as a Nader voter:
        Bush: Pro Iraq War
        Kerry: Pro Iraq War
        Nader: Anti Iraq War
        Bush: Pro Life
        Kerry: Pro Life
        Nader: Pro Choice
        Bush: Pro Big Business
        Kerry: Pro Big Business
        Nader: Pro Little People
        It goes on like this.  Kerry is Pro UN, while Bush is anti UN and
        Kerry would raise taxes on the rich to slightly higher levels than
        Bush, but overall they're both 'Business As Usual' guys.  As a Nader
        voter how could I even consider voting for either of these men?  They
        are more similar than different.  What does Kerry offer me other than
        a lot of noise that he simply "isn't Bush" and "We hate Bush so vote
        for the other guy! (me!)"?  I hear nothing from the Kerry camp that
        would make me want to vote for him.  The entire message coming out
        is "I'm not Bush!" which really isn't true anyway.  --Nader'04!
2004/7/13 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:32248 Activity:insanely high
7/12    Yep, Fox News sure is unbiased:
        http://home.comcast.net/~tmp123/mm.jpg
        \_ Who would bother loading a jpg from a URL like that as 'proof'
           of anything.  I might as well post freeper links.
        \_ I don't watch Fox News, but isn't this a shot from one of their
           prime time editorial type shows?  Of course that's biased,
           that's the freaking point.  It's like getting mad at the NYT
           because the editorial page says Bush is a doo-doo head.
           that's the fucking point.  It's like getting mad at the NYT
           because the editorial page says Bush is a shit head.
        \_ msnbc ?= fox news?
        \_ Hey, that's from an MSNBC show.
2004/7/13 [Health/Disease/AIDS, Health/Disease/General] UID:32249 Activity:insanely high
7/12    Good thing the FBI is protecting us from those dangerous Art
        Professors.
        http://www.caedefensefund.org
        \_ Cue the motd brain damaged with all sorts of justifications for
           this.
        \_ Can someone save us from reading useless sarcastic URL descriptions
           and just give a real link summary instead?  No one has time to read
           every stupid untitled URL on the motd.
                \_ Some prof. got arrested for using poor judgement when
                   dealing w/ some bacteria or something. The link is some
                   sort of propaganda page.
                   \_ He didn't use poor judgment.  The bacteria were harmless
                      and he used them in art.  He called the police because
                      his wife died (nothing to do with the bacteria) and the
                      police saw his lab, freaked out, decided he was a
                      terrorist, confiscated everything, etc.  The really
                      sad thing is once they realized they had made total
                      fools of themselves they decided the best thing to do
                      was go full steam ahead and searched for anything they
                      could to nail the guy.  Eventually they found that he
                      had misrepresented himself to get some of the supplies
                      (claiming he was a lab of some sort), supplies that
                      could not be used for bioterrorism BTW, and ended up
                      charging the guy with fraud.  Wife dies, call police,
                      end up being charge with terrorism for you choice in
                      art medium.  Yay america.
                        \_ What kind of an idiot makes art w/ a bacteria?
                           I can understand if you were a jr/hs bio teacher
                           and you had that stuff in your house, but the
                           dude was an art prof or something. Should have
                           had the common sense to stick to paint/pastel.
                           \_ Bacteria seems useful if your work is a critique
                              of biotechnology and genetic engineering.
                              This is art not in the sense of "something pretty
                              to hang on a wall" but art as social critique.
                           \_ Under the Bush Regime, artists will only
                              be permitted to use paint and pastels.
                              All others will be incarcerated.
                           \_ No really.  You can't be that stupid, you're
                              just trolling.
        \_ this guy is a genius, now that gives me an idea to put
        small pox virus in my painting and send it as a gift to the
        president.
        \_ except for the fact the bacteria he was using were totally harmless
        \_ Look, art has become so degenerate in the 20th century, thanks to
           the liberal elites, that it no longer serves any moral purpose and
           ceases to be understandable by people, including the artists
           themselves.  Whether a terrorist or not, I am glad this government
           is finally trying to bring justice to arts and stop the outrage.
           \_ You're trolling, right?  Very little art has ever served a moral
              purpose.  It's purpose has been to make us think or feel a
              way.  Do you honestly think the government should be deciding
              what art is allowed  to exist?  There's some guys in Afghanistan
              who felt the same way...
              \_ The guys in Afghanistan knew no art.  They were all illterate.
                 Fiddling with bacteria is not an art.  It is just lame.
                 Have you visited the national gallery in DC?  That's art.
           \_ While I'm no supporter of all the stuff that wack jobs produce,
              art is about change.  I think using bacteria as a medium could
              produce some great art about life in the 21st century-- biotech,
              genetic engineering, the fact that a tiny microbe could kill every
              one of us.  Have you ever met somebody who thinks his hammer*
              is the only tool anyone needs?  Same thing with art- you have to
              use the medium that's best for what you're doing.
                * You can substitute "programming language" or "Linux distro"
                  for hammer here if that helps.
        \_ Wow, this is scary.  I think I am going to move back to Singapore.
2004/7/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32250 Activity:high
7/12    My perspective as a Nader voter:
        Bush: Pro Iraq War
        Kerry: Pro Iraq War
        Nader: Anti Iraq War
        \_ To put Kerry and Bush in the same camp here isn't exactly fair
           \_ Yes.  It is.  Kerry and Edwards both voted for it based on the
              same info Bush had.  It is 100% fair.  -N'04
        \_ Uhm, I don't think unilaterally pulling out of Iraq is a terribly
           responsible thing to do.  If that's what Nader espouses, then he's
           an imbecile.
           \_ It isn't.  He wouldn't have put us there in the first place. -N4
              \_ Doesn't matter, now.  We are there.  What solutions does he
                 offer for cleaning up the mess?
        Bush: Pro Life
        Kerry: Pro Life
        Nader: Pro Choice
        \_ uhh, where did you get the Kerry pro life bit?
        Bush: Pro Big Business
        Kerry: Pro Big Business
        Nader: Pro Little People
        \_ I'm pro little people too!  Midget POWER!
        It goes on like this.  Kerry is Pro UN, while Bush is anti UN and
        Kerry would raise taxes on the rich to slightly higher levels than
        Bush, but overall they're both 'Business As Usual' guys.  As a Nader
        voter how could I even consider voting for either of these men?  They
        are more similar than different.  What does Kerry offer me other than
        a lot of noise that he simply "isn't Bush" and "We hate Bush so vote
        for the other guy! (me!)"?  I hear nothing from the Kerry camp that
        would make me want to vote for him.  The entire message coming out
        is "I'm not Bush!" which really isn't true anyway.  --Nader'04!
        \_ If you live in a non-battleground state, your vote doesn't matter
           anyway. There's no point in debating this in California which is
           going to the dems anyway. Save your effort at soap box politics
           and go do something constructive, like saving the whales...
           \_ My vote always matters.  If enough others who have the same
              opinion as you showed up we'd make a good showing to establishing
              the party for the future.  The Republicrat party hasn't always
              been the only choice.  There used to be many parties in this
              country.  There can be again.  --Nader'04
        \_ Well, since you probably share all those positions with Nader,
           why not just write yourself in?  You have about as much chance
           as becoming president, and are probably about as qualified.
           Hell, if you post your name, i'll bet you could get a couple
           poeple from the motd to vote for you also.  Then you can say you're
           voting "your conscience" without pretending you're actually
           participating in our democracy.
           \_ See my reply above about staying home.  Same answer.  --Nader'04
        \_ Kerry is a lot better then Bush on a lot of issues, abortion, the
           enviornment, international relations, civil liberties...  He's not
           a dream candidate, but voting for Nader will only help Bush win, and
           I can't condone that.  If we had a parlimentary system or instant
           runoff voting, then I could see voting for Nader, but under a winner
           takes all republican form of government, the pragmatic thing for a
           liberal to do is vote for Kerry.  Idealism is nice, but it put that
           asshole in power last time around.
           \_ Kerry said he believes life begins at conception.  To then say
              he thinks abortion is ok is to legally condone murder.  He's
              just trying to "position" himself politically.  He has no real
              conviction.  He just wants to be elected and powerful, the same
              as Bush and many others.  He's no different.  --Nader'04
        \_ Nader has a history of lying to improve is position politically,
           at the cost of "little people's" jobs.  Wait, why would I want to
           vote for him again?  He screws things up enough even when he's
           NOT in power. [reformatted - formatd]
           \_ Yeah, like when he tried to ban RWD cars. That fucker.
           \_ Lying?  I'll accept that if you can come up with a real URL. -N'4
        \_ Kerry is a moderate.  Bush and his puppet masters are a dangerous
           bunch who can mess up the country badly.  I am surprised a
           supposed Nader supporter cannot see the difference, and in
           particular, the danger of another 4 years of Bush.  I think you
           are a Bush supporter in disguise.
           \_ Kerry is just as beholden to his masters as Bush.  There is no
              difference.  Kerry isn't a moderate, he's got the same hungry
              power madness Bush has.  4 more years of power mad vs. 4 years of
              power mad followed by a potential 4 more isn't useful.  -N'04
           \_ Kerry is a moderate?  I suppose that's true compared to
              Berkeley liberals, but to the rest of the US, he's pretty
              dang far left.
              \_ it doesn't matter.  he will have to move to the center
                 if he isn't there.
                 \_ For the election rethoric, yeah.  I'm more interested
                    in the 4 years that follow.
                    \_ congress is republican, and supreme court has
                       shifted to the right.  whole democratic party has
                       moved to the center. thus no danger of kerry
                       moving things left.
        \_ Kerry is pro-life? Is that why NARAL gives him a 100% rating?
           http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0421103
           I am trying to figure out if you are a Conservative troll or
           a seriously ill informed Nader voter. Please educate yourself
           on Kerry's actual voting record in the Senate, not your
           fantasy of it, and get back to me. According to the National
           Review he is the most liberal member of the Senate.
           \_ Is National Review one of those right-wing think tanks?
              \_ No it is one of the more respected right wing magazines.
                 Sort of like The Nation, but for conservatives.
           \_ Kerry can't figure out WHAT he is.  I'm catholic, but I'm a
              democrat and therefore pro-choice.  Cognitive dissonance!
              \_ That sounds like a whole lot of Catholics to me.  They like
                 the Catholic Church, but think church doctrine has a lot of BS
                 \_ He didn't say he thought it was BS, he said, "I
                    oppose abortion, personally. I don't like abortion. I
                    believe life does begin at conception... I can't take
                    my Catholic belief, my article of faith, and legislate
                    it on a Protestant or a Jew or an atheist..."  That's
                    just stupid.  To paraphrase, "I think you're all
                    murdering babies, but I wouldn't want to stop you from
                    murdering babies.  That's your choice." Huh?
                    \_ Bullshit.  This is the finest point of the separation
                       of church and state.  He separates his faith from his
                       responsibility as a civil servant.  As a father, he
                       may have prayed that his daughter would never have
                       to make such a choice.  As a senator, he supports her
                       right to that choice.
                       \_ Thanks for tagging your post as Bullshit, since
                          that's what it is.  The government makes all
                          kinds of laws based on morality.  You know it's
                          against the law for me to murder you?  That's a
                          morality based law.  If he really believed that
                          life begins at conception, it makes no sense to
                          say that abortion is not murder.  The fact that
                          he REALLY wants that not to be the case does not
                          change it.
                          \_ I submit that John Kerry, thankfully, has a
                             more nuanced view of the world than you do.
                             I further submit that you need to do some
                             growing up before treading into political
                             discussions.
                             \_ Wow, I never realized that nuanced was a
                                nice way of saying soft/non-logical
                                thinking!  Thanks for improving my
                                venacular!  Hey, if I get a "nuanced"
                                enough world view, does that mean I'll be
                                able to act without consequences too? Cool!
                          \_ You do realize that morality != religion, yes?
                             The entire assertion that morality based law
                             falls into the same category as religion driven
                             law is completely based on this fallacious
                             equivalency.
                             \_ Way to completely miss the point.  The
                                point is that if you believe humans life
                                starts at conception, abortion is murder.
                                (Ignoring the possible out mentioned
                                later in this thread.)  It doesn't matter
                                if that belief comes from religion or not.  A
                                religious person's morality is defined by
                                their religion.  Since Kerry is CLAIMING
                                that his morality is based in
                                Catholisism, he should think clearly and
                                vote accordingly.  Since he doesn't, he's
                                either stupid or a liar.
                          \_ I'm a pro-choice atheist and I believe life begins
                             at conception.  Abortion kills a unique human
                             life, but it is not murder because that life is
                             so undeveloped that it lacks all of the qualities
                             that make human life deserving of protection.
                             \_ That's fine if you're atheist, but if
                                you're Catholic the kid goes to hell for
                                eternity.  Hence abortion is wrong.
                                \_ Catholic dogma is that unbaptized infants
                                   go to limbo, and will be brought into
                                   heaven when Jesus returns.  -tom
                                \_ Kerry may have said he believes life begins
                                   at conception, but did he say the soul
                                   begins at conception?
                                   I don't think Catholics believe all
                                   unbaptized sould go to hell.  I believe they
                                   made a specific exception for the stillborn.
                                   \_ I don't know.  If he does think
                                      that, he should state it clearly and
                                      explain why abortion is wrong but
                                      ok. Instead he's just trying to have
                                      it both ways.  I would be just fine
                                      with that position, I would also be
                                      fine with him rejecting the Catholic
                                      belief that all unbaptized children
                                      go to hell.
                             \_ D00D u r going to H3LL!
              \_ You don't know many Catholics, do you?
                 \_ Yes I do, and it's true that many of them have the
                    same problem.  Is that an excuse?
                    \_ This "problem" you speak of is common sense and
                       Christian compassion, not cognitive dissonance.
                       Not all Catholics hold all tenets of Catholic
                       dogma, and this is _not_ a problem.
                    \_ Yes.  They're trying to do the right thing while working
                       within a shitty system (calcified Catholic leadership).
                       \_ No, in typical soft-thinking fashion, they're
                          trying to avoid making hard choices and to have
                          things both ways.
2004/7/13-14 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:32251 Activity:very high
7/12    In the news...
        "Continuing security problems have eroded Internet Explorer's
        popularity; the market share for Explorer has dropped by more than a
        percentage point from 95.48 percent to 94.42 percent..."
        Gee that's gotta hurt! Poor MS.
        \_ Although if you read a report that said non IE browsers have gained
           20 percent marketshare you'd be pretty impressed.
        \_ While it's a tiny change in IE market share it does represent rather
           strong growth in Moz and Firefox.  You can't expect them to go from
           3 to 30% in one quarter, can you?
           \_ Didn't IE grow enormously fast in the early days?  I remember
              back in the days of Netscape 2,  IE was comparatively fast
              and stable and people downloaded it in droves.
              \_ IE3 sucked so much ass. I thought IE4>NS4, but it was debatable.
              \_ I don't remember that at all. During the days of NS2 I think
                 IE was still basically just an extension of Word (Yes, folks
                 IE started out as an embedded HTML renderer in MS Word). I don't
                 think IE became really popular until Win98 when it was bundled
                 (read shackled) into the OS.
             \_ Back in the days of NS 2, IE wasn't on the horizon at all.
                Most users seemed to use IE only for the purpose of downloading
                Netscape.  I considered NS3 to be the best web browser at the
                time but once NS4 and IE4 came out, it became clear that IE is
                better option (on Windows at least, we Unix users were mostly
                stuck with NS4 until Mozilla 0.9.x came out)
             \_ When NS4 and IE4 were both new, they were roughly the same in
                terms of usability, speed, etc.  IE5 came out and NS didn't
                do jack shit and the people voted for the better product.
           \_ I use NS 7.1.  Is it considered a Mozilla browser?
              \_ It is based on a not so recent version of Mozilla, so yes,
                 but you should really switch to Mozilla 1.7.1
                 \_ Possibly off topic, but why is the OSX version of Mozilla
                    so painfully slow?
                    \_ OSX is bloated.
                       \_ Hater. It's also wicked fast on my 15" PB
                    \_ Mozilla is slow on any platform. Try FireFox.
                 \_ Is Mozilla 1.7.1 a stable version?  Also, I found that
                    NS 7.1 on NT is much more memory hungry than NS 4.8.  Is
                    Mozilla 1.7.1 even more memory hungry than NS 7.1?  Thx.
        \_ you guys have forgotten that IE only became popular when it starts
           to be bundled with Windows 95.  Same for MSN Messanger, only start
           to gain market share significantly when it is bundled with XP.
2004/7/13 [Uncategorized] UID:32252 Activity:kinda low
7/12    Does anyone know where to get more Advantage-S and Advantage-24?
        They have a superb product but it seems like the product is
        discontinued :(
2004/7/13 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:32253 Activity:very high
7/12    Are there browsers out there that can change the size of fixed size
        fonts?                                          -annoyed guy
        \_ firefox + webdev extension
        \_ mozilla (control-equals and control-minus)
        \_ you can also set the minimum font size.  Try that.
        \_ Opera's zoom scales the whole page, including images, etc.
2004/7/13 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32254 Activity:high
7/12    My perspective as a Nader voter:
        \_ I stand in awe of your trolling prowess. This has got to up on the
           top fifty fastest-growing threads I've seen. The bullet list o' bile
           is an admirable innovation I shall emulate in my future efforts.
        \_ BTW, during the 2000 election Nader stated "There is no difference
           between Gore and Bush" ... I haven't seen him admit that was totally
           wrong, but I did see him being interviewed stating that "anyone is
           better than Bush, Bush is horrible (paraphrasing)".
        \_ We already discussed before how you're severely deluded. Nader is a
           bad choice for many reasons, and he won't win either. So do what you
           want, it's not really worth discussing anymore and you're not
           persuading anybody to support Nader. Your idealistic enthusiasm is
           cute though.
        Bush: Pro Iraq War
        Kerry: Pro Iraq War
        Nader: Anti Iraq War
        \_ To put Kerry and Bush in the same camp here isn't exactly fair
           \_ Yes.  It is.  Kerry and Edwards both voted for it based on the
              same info Bush had.  It is 100% fair.  -N'04
              \_ That doesn't mean the same thing.  While I agree that
                 Kerry's voting for for the resolution was stupid and
                 troubling, he wasn't the guy pushing for the war at any
                 cost.  Nor was he the one making up intelligence to give
                 to congress/the american people as proof we needed to
                 invade and that sactions/inspections weren't working.
                 That being said I suspect you are a troll, but hey...
        \_ Uhm, I don't think unilaterally pulling out of Iraq is a terribly
           responsible thing to do.  If that's what Nader espouses, then he's
           an imbecile.
           \_ It isn't.  He wouldn't have put us there in the first place. -N4
              \_ Right, and you know factually that Kerry would have?  Prove
                 it.
              \_ Doesn't matter, now.  We are there.  What solutions does he
                 offer for cleaning up the mess?
        Bush: Pro Life
        Kerry: Pro Life
        \_ You do know that you can be pro choice and still abortion is wrong,
           you just let other people make the decision instead of taking it
           away from them, right?
        Nader: Pro Choice
        \_ uhh, where did you get the Kerry pro life bit?
        Bush: Pro Big Business
        Kerry: Pro Big Business
        Nader: Pro Little People
        \_ I'm pro little people too!  Midget POWER!
           \_ I love little people. It's like Thailand without AIDS.
        It goes on like this.  Kerry is Pro UN, while Bush is anti UN and
        Kerry would raise taxes on the rich to slightly higher levels than
        Bush, but overall they're both 'Business As Usual' guys.  As a Nader
        voter how could I even consider voting for either of these men?  They
        are more similar than different.  What does Kerry offer me other than
        a lot of noise that he simply "isn't Bush" and "We hate Bush so vote
        for the other guy! (me!)"?  I hear nothing from the Kerry camp that
        would make me want to vote for him.  The entire message coming out
        is "I'm not Bush!" which really isn't true anyway.  --Nader'04!
        \_ If you live in a non-battleground state, your vote doesn't matter
           anyway. There's no point in debating this in California which is
           going to the dems anyway. Save your effort at soap box politics
           and go do something constructive, like saving the whales...
           \_ My vote always matters.  If enough others who have the same
              opinion as you showed up we'd make a good showing to establishing
              the party for the future.  The Republicrat party hasn't always
              been the only choice.  There used to be many parties in this
              country.  There can be again.  --Nader'04
        \_ Well, since you probably share all those positions with Nader,
           why not just write yourself in?  You have about as much chance
           as becoming president, and are probably about as qualified.
           Hell, if you post your name, i'll bet you could get a couple
           poeple from the motd to vote for you also.  Then you can say you're
           voting "your conscience" without pretending you're actually
           participating in our democracy.
           \_ See my reply above about staying home.  Same answer.  --Nader'04
              \_ Let me make this a little more clear.  If i had to choose
                 between some random dick on the motd and Nader, I would
                 actually vote for the random dick on the motd.
        \_ Kerry is a lot better then Bush on a lot of issues, abortion, the
           enviornment, international relations, civil liberties...  He's not
           a dream candidate, but voting for Nader will only help Bush win, and
           I can't condone that.  If we had a parlimentary system or instant
           runoff voting, then I could see voting for Nader, but under a winner
           takes all republican form of government, the pragmatic thing for a
           liberal to do is vote for Kerry.  Idealism is nice, but it put that
           asshole in power last time around.
           \_ Kerry said he believes life begins at conception.  To then say
              he thinks abortion is ok is to legally condone murder.  He's
              just trying to "position" himself politically.  He has no real
              conviction.  He just wants to be elected and powerful, the same
              as Bush and many others.  He's no different.  --Nader'04
        \_ Nader has a history of lying to improve is position politically,
           at the cost of "little people's" jobs.  Wait, why would I want to
           vote for him again?  He screws things up enough even when he's
           NOT in power. [reformatted - formatd]
           \_ Yeah, like when he tried to ban RWD cars. That fucker.
           \_ Lying?  I'll accept that if you can come up with a real URL. -N'4
        \_ Kerry is a moderate.  Bush and his puppet masters are a dangerous
           bunch who can mess up the country badly.  I am surprised a
           supposed Nader supporter cannot see the difference, and in
           particular, the danger of another 4 years of Bush.  I think you
           are a Bush supporter in disguise.
           \_ Kerry is just as beholden to his masters as Bush.  There is no
              difference.  Kerry isn't a moderate, he's got the same hungry
              power madness Bush has.  4 more years of power mad vs. 4 years of
              power mad followed by a potential 4 more isn't useful.  -N'04
           \_ Kerry is a moderate?  I suppose that's true compared to
              Berkeley liberals, but to the rest of the US, he's pretty
              dang far left.
              \_ it doesn't matter.  he will have to move to the center
                 if he isn't there.
                 \_ For the election rethoric, yeah.  I'm more interested
                    in the 4 years that follow.
                    \_ congress is republican, and supreme court has
                       shifted to the right.  whole democratic party has
                       moved to the center. thus no danger of kerry
                       moving things left.
        \_ Kerry is pro-life? Is that why NARAL gives him a 100% rating?
           http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0421103
           I am trying to figure out if you are a Conservative troll or
           a seriously ill informed Nader voter. Please educate yourself
           on Kerry's actual voting record in the Senate, not your
           fantasy of it, and get back to me. According to the National
           Review he is the most liberal member of the Senate.
           \_ Is National Review one of those right-wing think tanks?
              \_ No it is one of the more respected right wing magazines.
                 Sort of like The Nation, but for conservatives.
           \_ Kerry can't figure out WHAT he is.  I'm catholic, but I'm a
              democrat and therefore pro-choice.  Cognitive dissonance!
              \_ That sounds like a whole lot of Catholics to me.  They like
                 the Catholic Church, but think church doctrine has a lot of BS
                 \_ He didn't say he thought it was BS, he said, "I
                    oppose abortion, personally. I don't like abortion. I
                    believe life does begin at conception... I can't take
                    my Catholic belief, my article of faith, and legislate
                    it on a Protestant or a Jew or an atheist..."  That's
                    just stupid.  To paraphrase, "I think you're all
                    murdering babies, but I wouldn't want to stop you from
                    murdering babies.  That's your choice." Huh?
                    \_ Bullshit.  This is the finest point of the separation
                       of church and state.  He separates his faith from his
                       responsibility as a civil servant.  As a father, he
                       may have prayed that his daughter would never have
                       to make such a choice.  As a senator, he supports her
                       right to that choice.
                       \_ Thanks for tagging your post as Bullshit, since
                          that's what it is.  The government makes all
                          kinds of laws based on morality.  You know it's
                          against the law for me to murder you?  That's a
                          morality based law.  If he really believed that
                          life begins at conception, it makes no sense to
                          say that abortion is not murder.  The fact that
                          he REALLY wants that not to be the case does not
                          change it.
                          \_ I submit that John Kerry, thankfully, has a
                             more nuanced view of the world than you do.
                             I further submit that you need to do some
                             growing up before treading into political
                             discussions.
                             \_ Wow, I never realized that nuanced was a
                                nice way of saying soft/non-logical
                                thinking!  Thanks for improving my
                                venacular!  Hey, if I get a "nuanced"
                                enough world view, does that mean I'll be
                                able to act without consequences too? Cool!
                                \_ The real world that real people
                                   live in is not black and white.
                                   Maybe someday you will understand that.
                                   You have never changed your mind about
                                   any moral issue? You have never been
                                   conflicted about any decision you have
                                   ever made? You have never been able to
                                   see both sides of an issue? You must
                                   be very immature.
                                   \_ No, he's just a geek.  Geeks don't
                                      understand any sort of politics
                                      beyond the Mr. Spock sort (IF x THEN
                                      y ELSE z).
                          \_ You do realize that morality != religion, yes?
                             The entire assertion that morality based law
                             falls into the same category as religion driven
                             law is completely based on this fallacious
                             equivalency.
                             \_ Way to completely miss the point.  The
                                point is that if you believe humans life
                                starts at conception, abortion is murder.
                                (Ignoring the possible out mentioned
                                later in this thread.)  It doesn't matter
                                if that belief comes from religion or not.  A
                                religious person's morality is defined by
                                their religion.  Since Kerry is CLAIMING
                                that his morality is based in
                                Catholisism, he should think clearly and
                                vote accordingly.  Since he doesn't, he's
                                either stupid or a liar.
                                \_ Catholicism is a very big tent and
                                   includes plenty of room for varying
                                   viewpoints. Which you would know, if
                                   you knew anything about Catholicism.
                                \_ Your premise "humans life starts at
                                   conception, abortion is murder." is flawed
                                   precisely because of the 'out' that a
                                   Christian can plausibly argue that the
                                   human soul does not begin at conception.
                                   By focusing on the start of life you are
                                   mis-framing the debate.  Few medicine-aware
                                   abortion supporters would disagree that an
                                   embryo is alive, but the point of contention
                                   is whether they have souls and whether that
                                   sort of philosophical question should be
                                   made a matter of public policy.
                          \_ I'm a pro-choice atheist and I believe life begins
                             at conception.  Abortion kills a unique human
                             life, but it is not murder because that life is
                             so undeveloped that it lacks all of the qualities
                             that make human life deserving of protection.
                             \_ That's fine if you're atheist, but if
                                you're Catholic the kid goes to hell for
                                eternity.  Hence abortion is wrong.
                                \_ Catholic dogma is that unbaptized infants
                                   go to limbo, and will be brought into
                                   heaven when Jesus returns.  -tom
                                \_ Kerry may have said he believes life begins
                                   at conception, but did he say the soul
                                   begins at conception?
                                   I don't think Catholics believe all
                                   unbaptized sould go to hell.  I believe they
                                   made a specific exception for the stillborn.
                                   \_ I don't know.  If he does think
                                      that, he should state it clearly and
                                      explain why abortion is wrong but
                                      ok. Instead he's just trying to have
                                      it both ways.  I would be just fine
                                      with that position, I would also be
                                      fine with him rejecting the Catholic
                                      belief that all unbaptized children
                                      go to hell.
                             \_ D00D u r going to H3LL!
              \_ You don't know many Catholics, do you?
                 \_ Yes I do, and it's true that many of them have the
                    same problem.  Is that an excuse?
                    \_ This "problem" you speak of is common sense and
                       Christian compassion, not cognitive dissonance.
                       Not all Catholics hold all tenets of Catholic
                       dogma, and this is _not_ a problem.
                    \_ Yes.  They're trying to do the right thing while working
                       within a shitty system (calcified Catholic leadership).
                       \_ No, in typical soft-thinking fashion, they're
                          trying to avoid making hard choices and to have
                          things both ways.
        \_ A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.  Good troll, by the way.
2004/7/13-14 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32255 Activity:very high
7/12    What is the etymological connection between Anglo-Saxon (English)
        and Anglo-Franks (French)?                      -history dumb
        \_ There is no such thing as Anglo-Franks.  Anglo-Saxon refers to
           the descendents of the bilingual Vikings who hacked their way to
           Britan, who later also hacked their way to this country.
           \_ I think they sailed.
        \_ Rather long and complicated, but the gist is that English is based
           on Germanic roots rather than Roman roots so English and French are
     in reality from completely seperate linguistic families. However, because
           of the constant invasions and migrations of peoples through the
           British isles English has become a mishmash of Germanic and Romance
          languages, hence the weird spelling of certain words and the usage of
           certain French terms that are only found in English.
           \_ Case in point.  In English, words for livestock are native, while
              words for livestock meat are French.  The reason: during the
              Norman invasion, the gentry were all French, while the peasants
              were English.  The peasants grew livestock, and the gentry ate
              it. -- ilyas
                \_ wow I never noticed that, that is really interesting.
                   tell us more ilyas!!!
                   \_ obTellusaboutthestarsilyas!
                      \_ obw00t!
              \_ Isn't it also why the English words for things are
                 considered dirty (i.e. fuck)?
                 \_ Va t'enculer.
                 \_ The history and etymology of 'bad language' is an
                    interesting subject.  I think it's an oversimplification to
                    say 'fuck' is only bad because the prissy normans didn't
                    like the short stubby anglo words for things.  'Fuck'
                    comes from German 'Ficken' I think, which means to
                    bludgeon.  The word is 'bad' perhaps because it implies
                    intercourse is a kind of violent act. -- ilyas
2004/7/13-14 [Recreation/Dating] UID:32256 Activity:high
7/12    Why do people ask the motd for sex advice?
        \_ The question below is really more of a technology question than
           a sex question.
        \_ living vicariously
        \_ It's the only sex sodans get.
           \_ MOTD needs more "Dear Penthouse Forum..."
        \_ It's their only link to the outside world.
        \_ Boredcast Message from 'coganman': Thu Jul 27 12:33:03 1995
           this is funny, masturbatory soda geeks discussing sex.
           it's like colorblind people arguing over who has the pretties
           rainbow
           \_ I'm married and I still masturbate a lot.
              \_ How much is a lot?  Does that cause any health problems?
                 \_ Every other day or so.  No health problem -- I'm not blind
                    yet.
                    \_ Will you have any health problem if more than once
                       a day?
              \_ Thanks for sharing.
              \_ That's 'cause you're married.
              \_ Does your wife masturbate a lot?
                 \_ And if so, post pics!
                 \_ Yes, but the difference is that she masturbates in front of
                    me.
2004/7/13-14 [Computer/SW/Apps, Computer/SW/Security] UID:32257 Activity:high
7/12    I have a pdf file that is somehow corrupted.  I want to recover
        its first page.  What tool can do that?  This is an image only pdf.
        \_ try opening it with illustrator.  I've seen that work.
        \_ Elcomsoft has a cool toy for breaking pdf security and saving
           the result as another file.  Maybe it can read it.  -John
2004/7/13 [Recreation/Dating] UID:32258 Activity:high
7/12    So I bought the sponge from Canada and tried to insert it into
        my gf, but the sponge is so big that she can't fit it.
        Does anyone have this problem? Thanks.
        \_ I'm not sure why this got deleted.  Your problem is that in Canada
           they use the metric system, so the sponge is metric, while your
           gf's pussy is almost certainly calibrated in the English
           system of measurement.
        \_ Er, I wish I had your problem.
        \_ The sponge is supposed to squish down into a little ball, and
           then it should be able to fit up there.  If she can insert a
           tampon or even a diaphragm, she should definitely be able to
           fit a sponge in there (although it can be annoying, but not any
           more annoying or uncomfortable than a diaphragm).  If she is
           uncomfortable with inserting tampons and/or diaphragms, the sponge
           is not the right b.c. method for her.  --chris
           \_ um, you're telling me that you can squeeze a 3" ball into
              a .5 inch ball? YOU SURE???                       -op
              \_ just like a scientist.  the sponge is squishy, it fits
                 when folded up. if you doubt me, practice on your ass. --chris
              \_ you never got those little pills that turn into dinosaur
                 sponges?
              \_ the sponge is squishy, it fits when folded up.
                 if you doubt me, practice on your ass. --chris
           \_ thanks chris. Which one is better, Today or Protectaid?
              \_ I only know about Today. --chris
        \_ RealDolls don't need contraception.
           \_ But it makes "her" easier to clean.
        \_ If a sponge doesn't fit -- you may want to check to make sure
           she's not a man.
        \_ Try an SOS pad instead.
        \_ There is some special techniques that you have to learn by
           waching.  I will demo it on your gf.
        \_ You read the instructions, right?  Are you tall enough to have sex
           or a gf?
        \_ Give me her address.  I'll make her hole bigger.
           \_ Sure thing: http://csua.org/u/85j  -john
        \_ Funny, I don't seem to be having that problem with your g/f.
        \_ How big is your penis?
2004/7/13-14 [Uncategorized] UID:32259 Activity:high
7/12    Cedar Rapids fire department blocks plan for Church book burning.
        http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Midwest/07/12/no.book.burning.ap
        Ah shucks.  First they take away our book burnings, then they'll
        take away cross burnings, and then who knows what next?
        \_ Maybe they'll take away your right to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded
           theatre!  Where has my America gone?  Oh, woe!
        \_ "Breedlove said a city fire inspector suggested shredding the
            offending material, but Breedlove said that wouldn't seem
            biblical. 'I joked with the guy that St. Paul never had to
            worry about fire codes,' Breedlove said."  I don't seem to
            remember book burning in the Bible.  Let alone in Acts, can
            anyone site a scripture? -jrleek
                   \- mr. leek: i assumed that was a reference to
                      RAV v. St. Paul. although i was surprised that
                      the chuch person would know the case ... maybe it
                      was more memorable in the midwest. ok tnx. --psb
            \_ I thought book burning was more of a Hitler-style thing than
               a Jesus Christ Superstar thing.
               \_ Consider that before the printing press was invented and
                  common, books were made by hand and were illustrated works
                  of art, not the commonly available throw away paper backs
                  we have today.  Book burning would have been insanely
                  expensive, hard to get enough in one place anyway, and since
                  most people were illiterate, simply stupid and silly.
            \_ [2 Peter 3:10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in
               the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great
               noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
               also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2004/7/13 [Uncategorized] UID:32260 Activity:high
7/12    What is the link to that flashlight pussy product?
        \_ fleshlight
                \_ is there a store around here that carries it?
2004/7/13 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:32261 Activity:nil
7/12    What preprocessor are defined for Linux that identifies linux
        platform? __LINUX__? Thanks.
        \_ __linux__
2004/7/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:32262 Activity:moderate
7/12    Interesting study of Campaign Character
i       http://csua.org/u/86a (journalism.org)
        Despite media reports that constantly characterize Kerry as being
        "out of touch" with the common man and Bush being "down to earth,"
        only 20 percent perceive Kerry as a "wealthy elitist" compared to
        27 percent for Bush...
        \_ But the majority think Kerry's a wuss.
           \_ When's the last time he fell off his bike?
2004/7/13-14 [Reference/Law/Court] UID:32263 Activity:high
7/12    How do some cases go all the way to the Supreme Court, and not others?
        What's the deciding factor there?
        \_ It's appealed, and four justices grant or deny a writ of certiorari
           depending on constitutional scope.
              \- the USSC has original jurisdiction in a couple of areas
                 see 28 USC 1251. these dont "go all the way to the sup ct"
                 but start there. --psb
                 \_ this response is irrelevant to the question asked, as
                    well as the reply it is replying to. --aaron
                    \- this wasnt a "reply to the reply" but an elaboration.
                       by any reasonable criteria, since the person didnt
                       specifically ask about the appeals process or how
                       cert. works, the OP was asking "how do cases arrive
                       at the sup ct". one means is the fed and state appeals
                       process. the other are the OJ cases. didnt take your
                       medicine today? as for the deeper question of when/why
                       to the justices grant cert, given the first part of the
                       Q,i didnt think that was what was being asked, at least
                       at first cut. --psb
        \_ my question is what prevents Supreme Court Justice, who is
           appointed for life, accepting bribe and doing other nasty things
           for personal gain?
           \- Not just SupCt judges have life appointments. You may wish
              to google for "Abe Fortas" --psb
2004/7/13-14 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:32264 Activity:high
7/12    So for those afraid that Bush will declare himself Caesar (stealing a
        line from Jon Stewart) by postponing the federal election, what would
        you like the government to do if San Francisco and NYC got hit with a
        dirty bomb on election day?
        \_ Women and minorities would be hit hardest.
        \_ Go to the polls and vote like a proper democracy and not be
           cowed like a bunch of fucking maggots.  Although in Florida's
           case it'd probably cause weeks worth of bitching about lost
           vote results.  -John
        \_ First of all, the answer to your question doesn't change whether
           the city hit with a dirty bomb votes mostly Democrat or mostly
           Republican.  Second, the concern isn't that Bush is lengthening
           his term (this part is just a joke), but that postponing the date
           might benefit him -- seeing as how the elections in Spain favored
           the liberal party after their terror attacks (a real and
           contemporary example) -- because if Bush couldn't protect you, then
           why not try Kerry?  Third, the Bush administration is looking at
           changing the date if a terror attack occurs arbitrarily close to
           election day -- it does not have to occur on election day.
           \_ This doesn't answer the question.
              If a major attack happened the day of, or shortly before the
              election, what do you think the gov't should do?
              \_ The question is flawed, as explained above, but to answer
                 your question:  If Houston or SF got hit with a dirty bomb,
                 the government should -- before the terror attack occurs --
                 have a policy in place on the question of whether or not to
                 postpone the election, and it should be bi-partisan.  Also,
                 assuming the above, the election should not be postponed so
                 far out that it extends Bush's term, as much as it can be
                 helped.  Bi-partisan is the key word here.
                 \_ So early inquiries about the legality of the possibility
                    didn't deserve the flak it got in the press?  People having
                    fits about Bush as president-for-life need to get a grip?
                    Yeah, that was my point.
                    \_ They had fits because it was discovered that Bush
                       was looking into this unilaterally.  If, on the
                       other hand, Republicans and Democrats announced they
                       were studying this issue in a joint press conference,
                       it would be ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
                       \_ That's just plain stupid.  The initial inquiries were
                          about the legality of the possibility, which is a
                          logical first step.  The next step would be to have a
                          committee work on the specifics.
                          \_ If you don't tell the other side you're looking
                             into it, it looks like you're trying to postpone
                             the election, to your own benefit, using
                             terrorism as an excuse.
                             Here's a question for you:  If President Gore did
                             this, what would Republicans say?
                             (Do you see my point yet?)
        \_ This is pure fantasy.  Why would they hit the Bay Area?  That
           only be slightly more likely than them bombing Tehran.
           \_ Why not hit any major city where people aren't expecting it?
           \_ Insert-your-favorite-metro-area there then.
2004/7/13-14 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:32265 Activity:high
7/12    Someone please explain the following?
        ((size_t )& ((SomeVar *)0)->Field);
        \_ It's a hideous abuse of C++ syntax and results in undefined
           behavior.  It appears to be an attempt to find out the offset of the
           member "Field" in the class/struct type SomeVar.  Ow, ow ow.
           \_ This is actually not undefined, in C or C++.  It is hideous,
              though; it would be nicer to #include <stddef.h> and just use
              though; it would be nicer to #include  and just use
              offsetof(SomeVar, Field).  In C++, you might also be able to
              use a pointer-to-member (&SomeVar::Field), depending on what
              you're trying to do.  --mconst
              \_ You're saying that dereferencing a null pointer is not
                 undefined? -emarkp
                 \_ Right.  In C99, you're allowed to dereference a null
                    pointer as long as all you do is take the address of
                    it afterwards; see 6.5.3.2p3.  In C++, it's not very
                    well stated in the standard, but the current view of
                    the committee is that you're allowed to do anything
                    with a dereferenced null pointer as long as you don't
                    trigger lvalue-to-rvalue conversion or try to write
                    to the memory; see http://csua.org/u/86c  --mconst
                    \_ Fascinating.  I usually follow Herb Sutter's articles to
                       keep me up-to-date.  Thanks for the info.  I just wish
                       they'd add a typeof operator and ditch the nonsensical
                       syntax of calling a static member function though an
                       instance (requiring T::func() instead of allowing T x;
                       x.func(); ). -emarkp
                    \_ Although 6.5.3.2 states that &*E is legal, it does not
                       address the issue in the original question, which
                       involves an additional structure member access.  I
                       believe that it is implementation-dependent.  It is
                       the compiler vendor's responsibility to provide an
                       offsetof macro in stddef.h that works with their own
                       implementation, but it need not be portable. --jameslin
                       \_ You're right, I take it back -- the original
                          statement is actually undefined in C99.  It works
                          for arrays, but not structs.  (It is still valid
                          C++, although it's not guaranteed to produce the
                          value you want.)  --mconst
        \_ So shouldn't your "SomeVar" be "SomeType" for clarity? That
           confused me for a bit.
2017/11/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:July:13 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>