Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:July:12 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:32225 Activity:high 71%like:32223
7/11    Illegal Aliens are Boosting for Billions, 60 Minutes
        http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/20/60minutes/main601396.shtml
        \_ It's Romanian gangs in Europe--they also do a lot of organized
           burglary, ramming (steal a car, ram a jewelery shop window),
           and stealing ATMs (attach to the back of a pickup truck, rip it
           from the walls.  -John
           \_ Romanian or Romany?
                \_ Romanian.  The Roma mainly specialize in pickpocketing.
        \_ Doing the jobs Americans won't do...
           \_ So instead of paying a fair wage you build your economy on the
              under paid backs of illegal labor?  Oh, that's so liberal
              minded of you.  Thanks for being such the humanitarian.  Maybe
              we can export our slave labor policy to other nations in an
              effort to spread our form of human rights?
              \_ Bub, if you're gonna bitch, you should read the link first.
        \_ Americans will do any job if the price is right.
           \_ except for manually working a farm. it has that stigma, y'all
              know.
              \_ Are you kidding?  Having sex with people for money has a
                 stigma, but farming?  Do you just mean the stereotype that
                 farmers are 'dumb'?  Dude, I d farm if the salary was good.
                 It's much better than rotting in a cubicle.  -- ilyas
              \_ No, they'd do that too if the work-reward ratio and conditions
                 were improved. There is a stigma, but there's also a sort of
                 romanticism about agriculture that I think would appeal to
                 some people if there was any dignity to the job.
                 \_ Winery employees have no problem working alongside the
                    Latino laborers. I've done it myself at harvest. Lots
                    of people like to garden, which is basically the same
                    thing. If the salary was higher more people would do it.
                    I'll tend sheep for $100K/year.
                    \_ Alot of americans would do it for a third of that.
                       \_ As long as we deny immigrants the chance to organize,
                          a lot of people in America will end up doing it for
                          1/20th of that.
2004/7/12 [Computer/SW/Languages/JavaScript] UID:32226 Activity:nil
7/12    Is there a cross-browser way to have javascript build me some
        prototype elements, perhaps like
        document.parse('<div class="foo"><p>blah blah blah</p></div>')?
        I'm getting sick of building up all this stuff via DOM calls.
2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/911, Computer/SW/Security] UID:32227 Activity:moderate
7/11    LIVE IN FEAR PESANTS!
        http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/2660471
        \_ Do you mean 'peasants'?
        \_ Ok so you won't mind if we profile Muslims and kick out all of
           the illegals?  Which is it?
           \_ Your reply makes no sense to me, but I'm sure it's exactly what
              the TSA folks think too.
           \_ The fact that they talked to him seemed reasonable, but I think
              any sane police agency would have quickly said, "ok, no big
              deal" pretty damn fast.  Although I think the person who
              reported him is a moron, I do understand the "we have to
              follow up" reponse.  I don't understand the "we have to look
              tough and try to scare him" response.
              \_ I don't think your version would make a very good newspaper
                 story.
              \_ It's just the way cops are.  You never met a cop before?  This
                 idiot writes like he's never met one either.  But really, the
                 above is correct.  The guy had a deadline for X column inches
                 so he wrote some crap.  Since nothing happened and you can't
                 check his story, who says it even happened at all?  The URL
                 and the original 'story' and I do mean 'story' are trolls.
                 \_ He's not an idiot; this is unacceptable behavior by stupid
                    and officious thugs in uniform.  I was approached by a
                    little toad bitch in St. Louis (after they'd lost my
                    luggage) who asked me if I were visiting on business or
                    pleasure--I replied "pleasure", at which point she started
                    snapping at me "then why are you wearing business
                    clothes?!?" (Khakis and a shirt.)  These are the menial
                    and uneducated, placed in uniform with a mandate to
                    intimidate.  See comment about paying what you get for
                    in the camera discussion below.  -John
        \_ America: land of the free, home of the brave.
2004/7/12 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:32228 Activity:moderate
7/12    http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/lax/35274458.html
        \_ that's a reprint of an old usenet post from the mid 90s,
        or maybe even earlier, alt.tasteless i think.
2004/7/12 [Recreation/Dating] UID:32229 Activity:moderate
7/12    "Frugal Gourmet" Jeff Smith has died at age 65.
         http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0711obitsmith11.html
        \_ Reading the article, did he really abuse kids when he was a
           minister?
           \_ It was never settled in court.  One side says yes, the other side
              says the timing of the accusation makes it look like a blackmail
              plot.  Regardless, he seemed like a nice man and his show was
              what got me interested in cooking. -op
              \_ He paid 'em off, didn't he?
                 \_ Yeah, after they made it public, so it's hard to say...
                    \_ Not knowing anything else, my money would be on:  he
                       did something bad, and he paid 'em off so his own kids
                       and wife wouldn't have too messed up a life with
                       everyone knowning about their child abuser dad.
                       I mean, the guy is just nice.  I don't think you can
                       get seven guys to lie about his molesting them; guys who
                       will be attacked by the public as well.
2004/7/12 [Computer/HW/Drives] UID:32230 Activity:high
7/12    iPod causes CD Copy protection companies to rethink strategy:
        http://tinyurl.com/5ujph
        \_ I assume there's a hack to rip those 'copy protected' CDs right?
           or am I wrong?
           \_ Yes, but it's not always very user-friendly, and in any case the
              copy-protected CDs have bogus error correcting codes which means
              the disc is more likely to be damaged by a scratch.  Whoops!
              Looks like you have to buy another one...
              \_ Ok, I don't completely under how CDS-200 works, but
                 it seems the following would work:
                 1. disable auto play in XP
                 2. using some software, select the active session on
                    the CD (to be different from what it would normaly be)
                 3. rip as one normally would.
                 This would work right? Or is it more complicated than
                 that? I mean if a normal CD player can play
                 it, then the raw track has to be on the CD somewhere,
                 the computer just need to find it.
                 \_ No.  When you try to rip it your CD-drive will either:
                    A) Say "Ack!  Corrupted disc!" and abort.
                    B) Say, "Hmm, the error-correcting code says the music
                       should sound like <gibberish>..."
                    You need to rip in some non-standard mode I forgot the name
                    of.  There are special programs to do this.  You can of
                    course put the disc in a normal CD-player and feed the line
                    into your sound card and record, but that has its own set
                    of problems.  FWIW, this copy-protection system also
                    renders the discs unplayable on many car stereos.
                    \_ You have to use rca output, not spdif output to copy
                       the cd if you are going to audio way.
                       \_ RCA output is never considered a 'copy'. I am
                          talking about copying as in computer file copy.
2004/7/12 [Recreation/Dating] UID:32231 Activity:high
7/12    Dear John, what's a dirndls, and could you please post a picture of
        your gf? Thanks
        \_ STFW, and you first. -!John
           \_ STFW?
              \_ Nevermind, the definition of STFW comes from STFW.
        \_ Sure thing: http://csua.org/u/85j  -john
           \_ NWS, of course. This begs a question I've been wondering. How can
              check the actual URL of a shortened URL w/o bringing it up?
                \_ try http://csua.com/?entry=32231
                \_ a HEAD request should get you url redirect info
                \_ KAIS MOTD's mouse over is quite cool and often let you know
                   something about the content, regardless of the URL !kchang
2004/7/12-13 [Science/Space, Transportation/PublicTransit] UID:32232 Activity:very high
7/12    Question about the BART ticket encoding system. Do they attach a
        unique id to each card, and have all the stations connect to a
        central computer that keeps track of the states (which is more secure
        but less reliable because in the 70s the network communication was
        not as reliable as now), or do they encode the actual amount of
        money onto each card (which is more fault tolerant to network
        noise, etc)? ok thx.
        \_ I can't speak for BART but Singapore's MRT system uses RFID
           cards for both bus and train services. AFIK, it would be
           really expensive to have RFID cards self modifying (especially
           when they have no batteries). It would be easier to use a
           centralized server and that's probably what they do.
           \_ Are you sure it's RFID and not some sort of induction mechanism?
              I think that's what RATP (Paris metro) use.  About contactless
              smart cards:  http://tinyurl.com/6su5r   -John
        \_ The latter. I have fantasized about getting a card reader
           and writer and making my own BART cards. It uses some
           simple encoding, if I remember correctly. I can dig up
           my research no this, if you like.
           \_ You know this is how one of the hosts of Off the Hook got
              a felony conviction, right?  It's not worth it.  If they catch
              you, expect the whole paranoid Mitnick style treatment by the
              courts.
              \_ He got a felony conviction for making a fake BART card?
                 I find this hard to believe. URL please.
                 \_ it was MTA in new york, and not BART.  I don't have a
                    url, and he doesn't discuss the details of his case
                    on the radio, but he's definitely on probation from
                     felony charges, and whatever he did was
                    definitely involving MTA cards in some way.
              \_ "Your honor, he was 'hacking' BART, a vital public resource.
                  If his plan had been allowed to spread, it would have had
                  serious impacts upon BART's ability to evacuate people in
                  the event of a disaster.  We ask that the court consider
                  the defendant to be an enemy combatant."
                  \_ Dude, you don't have to be declared an enemy combatant
                     for the government to make your life into a living hell.
                     I think the PP is pointing out that a felony crime
                     coupled with any electronic fu is likely to make a prime
                     target for investigation by the Dept of Homeland Sec.
                     Welcome to the New America.
                     \_ it's not the New America, and has nothing to do
                        with DHS.  The paranoid idiocy about computer
                        related crime goes back to at least when I was
                        in highschool in the early 90s.  My highschool physics
                        teacher atually testified that some idiot who was caught
                        with bomb related stuff on his bbs and some stolen shit
                        in his home (which the cops raided swat style) was
                        "neither evil nor a genius."  They really wanted
                        to throw the book at him becuase prosecuters get all
                        excited about the "evil genius" thing for some reason.
                        also, google "ed cummings"  to learn just how far law
                        enforcement will go to brutalize a small time hacker,
                        even before 9/11.
                        \_ And soon I will have understanding of videocassette
                           recorders and car telephones. And when I have
                           understanding of them, I shall have understanding
                           of computers. And when I have understanding of
                           computers, I shall be the Supreme Being!
           \_ could you please? My point is to not hack the system, but to
              research how engineering decisions are made, why, in what time
              frame, etc. I'm conducting a technology literary survey,
              thanks,                                           -op
                \_ Does it have to be bart or can it be any other eng.
                   system? Applied Crypto and Practical Crypto have
                   several examples of eng. design decisions. Also
                   look for books about Gemini and Apollo (the story
                   of why LOR was chosen is good example of eng. in
                   the real world)
                   \_ What's LOR?
                        \_ Lunar Orbit Rendezvous. There were three
                           different proposals to get to the moon:
                           1. Direct
                           2. Earth Orbit Rendezvous (EOR) - Launch
                              the bits into space separately, link
                              up in Earth orbit, go to the moon, land
                              and come back
                           3. Lunar Orbit Rendezvous (LOR) - Launch
                              this bits into space separately, link
                              up, go to the moon, land only part of
                              the craft on the moon, link back up
                              in orbit around the moon and come back.
                           LOR was the most/least complex depending
                           on your point of view. Most complex because
                           it has so many places where it could go
                           wrong. Least complex because it required
                           smaller rockets and smaller simpler lander.
                           Gemini is also of interest, because that
                           was the platform that proved that rendevous
                           and other systems could work.
                           For more info see:
                           http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Rendezvous.html
        \_ I've thought about this before.  I decided it's very unlikely that
           they have unique tickets that are tracked by a central server.  If
           they did that, the server would have to be able to store hundreds
           of millions of unique tickets (dating back 30 years) and there would
           have to be a way to instantly process transactions from about 1,000
           terminals spread over a 50-mile range.  Nowadays it's more-or-less
           doable, but in the 1970's it would have been a huge PITA.
           \_ ah yes, but they could have easily done it with well known
              techniques like database duplication, local caching, database
              merging, backup modems, etc.
              \_ BART can't even get the machines working well enough to
                 print the fucking ticket values.  -tom
              \_ Each ticket record would probably need to store 6-8 bytes in
                 a unique-tickets situation.  Then you need to be able to store
                 several hundred records at every station in the 1970's.  How
                 did a meg of disk cost in 1975?  Like I said, it would have
                 been possible, but huge pain for marginal benefit.
        \_ The amount of money is encoded in each card. It used to be printed
           in human readble form on the card every time it was used as well
           (not sure if this is still the case). The start point of your
           journey is also encoded so that when you exit it knows how much
           to deduct.
           \_ It still is printed, BART is just really bad about changing the
              toner ribbons in the turnstiles.
              \_ 1) This is true, they do need to replace the toner cartridges
                 more frequently, and 2) your ticket is supposed to have the
                 amount remaining printed on it _when you exit BART_. Many ppl
                 think the amount is written when you buy your ticket or enter
                 BART, but that's not the case.
                 \_ It IS printed (fairly reliably) when you buy your ticket.
                    It gets printed sideways next to the mag-strip.
        \_ I remember my dad (who worked at BART as a techie since 1972)
           telling me of a fraudulent cards they came across in the 80s.
           they were made out of index card stock w/ VHS tape glued down
           for the magnetic strip.  but if you're interested in tech politics
           ignore the ticketing system and try to find out about hte train control
           system and the wayside communications.  what a mess!
2004/7/12 [Consumer/GPS] UID:32233 Activity:high
7/12    Does anyone know how the garmin unlock key works? I can't find much
        info on the web and the gps newsgroup is too sensitive to this topic.
        \_ Are you trying to upload mapdate you have obtained illegally?
           \_ Yes, now fuck off.
        \_ Get the real thing, steal a PLGR or DAGR, and try cracking the
           the government authorization system. Post results here.\
           \_ I am not interested in the real thing.
        \_ what are you talking about?          -gps dumb guy
           \_ It's software activiation for the map data you can load
              into Garmin's GPS units.  -- !op
2004/7/12 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:32234 Activity:high
7/12    Architecture question:  Are RISC programs generally larger than
        equivalent CISC programs (binaries)?
        \_ yes.
        \_ uh oh, I anticipate yet another heated CISC/RISC debate
           why can't we all get along?
2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32235 Activity:nil
7/12    Eyeballing the White House
        http://cryptome.org/whrez/whrez-eyeball.htm  -John
        \_ What are you planning, terrorist?!
2004/7/12 [Recreation/Media] UID:32236 Activity:kinda low
7/12    Has anyone seen the Cameron Diaz S&M video yet? Is it really her and
        is it worth watching? And where do I find a copy?
        \_ coupla friends d/l'd it. it's really not worth watching at all,
           according to them. there's some boobage, but that's it.
           \_ put on soda?
2004/7/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:32237 Activity:insanely high
7/12    Why is it that even W is conceding that WMD hasn't been found, while
        motd conservatives has been telling that us it has?  Is W also
        a lying liberal?
        http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/international/middleeast/12CND-BUSH.html
        \_ Why is it that liberals keep on beating a dead horse that nobody
           cares about anymore?
           \_ Nobody cares?  Tell that to all the families of soldiers that
              have died.
              \_ Yup, nobody cares, especially the GIs in Iraq, who are more
                 concerned about getting the hell out rather than finding
                 WMD. Again, liberals == dead horse + whip.
                 \_ Obviously everyone cares. It was the premise of the war.
                    Everyone including Bush still talks about it. U = dumb.
              \_ And to all of us that are footing the bill...
                 \_ If the general public actually cared the left wouldn't need
                    Mike Moore to browbeat G.W.
                    \_ If you weren't an idiot then zebras would conquer Zaire.
           \_ Hahahaha. You wish that nobody cared about it. We told you at
              the time that he was a lying scumbag and you and your kind
              shouted us down. Now you will pay for leading America into
              an illegal and unnecessary war.
              http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/24/poll.iraq
              54 percent of Americans now say Iraq war a mistake.
        \_ Why does he hate America?
              \_ Yeah, and 90% said capturing Saddam was a good thing. You can
                 find a poll at any given point of time to support anything.
                 Anyway, if you were to take a poll today I'm sure you'll find
                 less than 40% of the population really cares about finding WMD.
           \_ That's exactly what I've been wondering for the last four years.
        \_ Dubya concedes that "WMD stockpiles" have not been found.  So,
           which motd conservatives are saying that WMD stockpiles have been
           found?  Anyway, Bush's main point is that Saddam could have given
           it to al Qaeda *at some point*, which is why we went pre-emptive.
        \_ cyclosarin shells, mustard gas shells, sarin shells, very large
           chemical attack averted in jordan, missile technology, buried
           nuclear components, uranium sought from Africa...
           Why do you not question the statements of DOZENS of leading
           Dems in WJC's administration and Congress?  Iraq, along
           with Iran and Syria, was the largest state sponsor of terror.
           \_ Uranium sought from Africa?  Where have you been, man? That
              was completely made up.
              \_ He still thinks Iraq had WMD.  He's deluded and in need of
                 meds.  His belief in the Uranium story is the least of his
                 problems.
                 \_ Woops I guess you are wrong yet again:
                    A new British inquiry is showing that Saddam did
                    seek uranium in Africa
                    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04193/344163.stm
                    Furthermore, the Senate's report undermines
                    Wilson's lies.
                 \_ From the Congressional Record... let's see what
                    Kerry, Daschle, and Clinton had to say during the
                    1990's about Iraq's WMD programs:
                    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/949198/posts
                    \_ I'm sorry, which of these men invaded Iraq on the
                       pretext of WMD? None. They called for inspections.
                       W picked the wrong horse and now he's covered in
                       manure. Deal with it.
           \_ Hmm... rusty old leftovers from the Iran/Iraq war, unrelated
              event in another country, missiles that flew slightly farther
              than allowed if you remove the guidance system, and some
              buried aluminum pipes.
              \_ Wrong, it was a gas centrifuge bearing housing.  A
                 massive chemical attack en route from Syria to Jordan
                 is an 'unrelated event'.  Do you know where these
                 countries are on a map and their respective political
                 institutions?
                 \_ oh, so they're next to Iraq, so we should invade Iraq;
                    great logic!
                    \_ Assad is Baathist.  If the connection is not
                       self-evident I don't think its worth continuing
                       this.
                       this.  You would approve of invading Syria?
                       I would - and I think the Europeans should do it.
                \_ Baathist party in Syria and baathist party in Iraq
                   have nothing to do with each other.  politics in Iraq
                   over the last 30 years have been dominated by
                   one guy, saddam, and only saddam, it's not like a party
                   system in america at all.
2004/7/12 [Recreation/Pets] UID:32238 Activity:very high
7/12    My dog (15lb. Daschund) swallowed a slice of a round bone 1.5" in
        diameter and 1" long.  I'm surprised he was able to swallow it.  It
        did not splinter.  Do you think he's in danger and should I take him
        to a vet?
        \_ Maybe you should... call a vet and ask them?
        \_ Dogs have stomachs with extremely low pH. They can eat almost
           anything as a result, including whole bones.
           \_ I'm not worried about splintering and piercing, but since he
              barely swallowed it I'm worried it could cause a bowel
              obstruction.
              \_ I don't know.  It might be a good idea, although I bet
                 the vet would just keep him overnight and wait for him to
                 pass it.
              \_ http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/bones.html
                 Take him to the vet.
           \_ can they handle milk then?  many said one shouldn't feed dogs
              milk because dogs are lactose intolerant.
              \_ They say that about cats too but I hear about people doing
                 that all the time. I think that's a STFW topic though.
        \_ Are dogs carnivores? Don't most carnivores have pretty simple
           bowels so that they can eat prey in big chunks without causing
           obstructions?
           \_ Don't wild dogs die around age 6-7?
        \_ The fact that it's a long dog means that their bowels can easily
           twist and cause serious damage.  Take him to the vet, even if it's
           just for monitoring.  A bowel obstruction is a very painful way for
           your dog to die.
        \_ I have two dachshunds, I empathize -- they eat EVERYTHING!  Go to
           your vet, or to Pet Emergency (the one in Berkeley on Univ and 10th
           a block off San Pablo is the recommended one hereabouts).  Don't
           wait for it to become a problem, get your pet examined!  At the
           very least, the vet will prescribe a diet that will allow your
           dog to pass the bone more easily...and the vet could also
           save your dog from severe distress and death.  --chris
        \_ That's a huge bone.  Your dog is kind of stupid.
           \_ Dachshunds weren't bred for their high IQ....
        \_ successfully resisted (barely) the temptation to replace dog with
           something else in this thread... :)
2004/7/12-13 [Uncategorized] UID:32239 Activity:kinda low
7/12    Any tree fools that does nice graphical directory comparison like
        Araxis Merge, but free? for windows. Thanks.
        \_ http://winmerge.sourceforge.net
        \_ http://winmerge.sourceforge.net
           I like Beyond Compare though, but it's not free ($30).
2004/7/12 [Health] UID:32240 Activity:moderate
7/12    Can alcohol or hydrogen peroxide solution cure finger nail infection?
        I saw a TV commericial there's a pill for this, but it also says there
        can be serious side effects.
        \_ Is it fingernail or toenail?
           Search google for:  berkeley parents nail fungus
           As for the pill, that's Lamisil, and you take one a day and your
           liver has to work overtime to clear up your blood.  Basically you
           will need monthly liver monitoring while you are on it.  It's
           expensive, but it works.
           \_ and watch out for extremeley high blood pressure.
           \_ It's fingernail (thumbnail).  Are fingernail infection and
              toenail infection different kinds of infections?
              \_ Toenail infections are much more common.  Fingernail
                 infections, I don't know anyone with, and you should
                 definitely see a doctor, and not only that, a specialist.
                 I doubt you will find someone on soda who has first-hand
                 (pun!) experience with fingernail fungus.
2004/7/12-13 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:32241 Activity:very high
7/12    In C, what should be the data type for array indices?  I usually just
        use "int".  Thx.
        \_ YES!  The 'trivial C question troll' is back!  I love you, man!
        \_ int is fine, but I often find myself using unsigned int, especially
           in for loops where I compare unsigned int i against some maximum-
           value variable that is also unsigned int.
        \_ It's an integer type.  a[i] is the same as *(a + i).  Can be signed,
           can be negative.  Why do you care?
           \_ I'm just wonder if the K&R spec says anything about it.  I don't
              have the spec here.
        \_ size_t
           \_ Are you sure?  It's not, say, ptrdiff_t?  Isn't a[-1] legal?
                \_ You can use ssize_t if you like, I personally prefer
                   size_t since stuff like a[-1] can often lead to bugs
                   if you aren't completely sure what a points to.
                   \_ The original question wasn't what type /should/ be
                      used; it was what it *is*.  Section 6.5.2.1 of the
                      C99 standard says merely, "integer type" and (as I
                      said before) that a[i] is identical to *(a + i) (from
                      which it should be obvious that the index is an integer
                      type).
        \_ To settle this question once and for all, just look at the C
           standard? It says the subscript shall be an integral type.
           Integral type is defined as char, an unsigned or signed integer
           type, or an enumerated type. A signed integer type is signed
           char, short int, int, or long int, and unsigned integer type is
           the corresponding unsigned type. Clear enough?
           \_ You could have just said:  The C standard (post URL) says the
              index can be an integral type (signed/unsigned short/long
              char, int, enum), and negative values are permitted.
              \_ There is no URL for the C standard. Or not a legal one,
                 anyway. There are various draft standards, though.
           \_ what about long long?
              \_ above is for C90. C99 draft standard has somewhat different
                 verbiage, but the spirit is the same. basically all integer
                 types can be subscripts.
2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:32242 Activity:very high
7/12    Facism, anyone? http://csua.org/u/85n -- The 14 common characteristics
        of fascist regimes -- ring any bells?
        \_ The Council for Secular Humanism?  This is way worse than
           WorldNetDaily.
        \_ Well, the obvious point of this piece is to say that
           Bush = Fascist, but it does a pretty poor job of substatiating
           that claim. Many of the points it tries to make don't apply to
           Bush at all.  Some don't even apply to Fascism.  (The one about
           religion is a pretty obvious secular humanists swipe at
           religion, but has little to do with what was actually done in
           fascist governments.)  The ones that are refelcted with Bush
           are often a big stretch.  A few fascist like tendencies are
           shown to be in the Bush-like, but I don't think it's any
           more than you would see between Hitler and say, FDR.
           \_ But FDR is a facist with a socialist bend.
              \_ how true, it was said FDR envied Stalin because
                 he was such an effective collectivist.  Would explain
                 their friendship.
                 \_ "it was said"? By whom? Freepers?
              \_ FDR = fascist is just as patently absurd as Bush = fascist.
                 FDR defeated fascism.  I don't think any of you or the people
                 in the URL really understand the word "fascism."
                 \_ Thank you.  Can anyone here actually define fascism
                    for me?  I had a roommate who hated Regan because he
                    was a "fascist" but he could never point to any
                    specific instances, or even tell me what that meant.
                    \_ fascism : a political theory advocating an authoritarian
                       hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy
                       or liberalism).  Its really not that complicated.
                       Perfectly describes the result of the policies of the
                       New Deal and the left today.
                    \_ The URL above is a paraphrase of a very common
                       14 point definition.  Its workable but I think
                       the comparison to Bush falls down (I dislike
                       Bush as much as the next guy but calling him
                       Hitler is hyberbole).  There was a recent
                       book on this subject that got favorable reviews,
                       but the name escapes me at the moment.
                    \_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
                       is as good a definition of fascism as
                       you are going to find anywhere.
                    \_ it's not something just a one-sentence little blurb
                       could sufficiently describe. mussolini wrote an essay
                       defining it:
                      http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html
                       As that site mentions, the term comes from "fasces"
                       which were held by Roman officials as symbols of the
                       authority of their office. Basically it's authoritarian
                       nationalism, the idea that only strong authority can
                       lead a nation to greatness and vitality, the State
                       being more important than individuals.
                       being more important than individuals. There's also
                       the notion that this national struggle is the only thing
                       with meaning, with the wars and all, making your place
                       in history; that otherwise you might as well be dead.
                       Which helps explain how Hitler could just roll the dice
                       with millions of lives in the balance.
           \__ Actually, most fascist governments do form an alliance
               with organized religion. See Italy, Brazil, Argentina,
               Spain, Chile and Indonesia for examples. A few did not.
        \_ yes the Dems like Schumer, Hillary the witch and WJC.
        \_ Bush is a Fascist!  Bush is a Fascist! Saying it enough times
           makes it true!
           \_ You should watch Starship Troopers.
              \_ I did one better, I read the book.
                 \_ Watch the movie again.  Movies work.
                    \_ Work for what? BTW, have YOU read the book?
                       \_ Movies work in the ways that books don't.  I have
                          not read the book, but now you mention it, I will.
                          I can understand why you would not want to see the
                          movie (again) if you've read the book.
                          \_ Don't bother. The difference is that Heinlein
                             basically advocated fascism - particularly in ST.
                             The movie was, by contrast, a satire on the book's
                             enthusiasm for fascism. MANY people did not figure
                             this out, though. -- ulysses
                             \_ I guess I'm one of them then -- IIRC, positions
                                in government were decided by a popular vote.
                                I honestly don't see how that's fascist.
        \_ If you are a liberal, please don't use the term fascist to describe
           the Bush administration.  It's become an epithet.
           \_ Saying that it has become an epithet is also saying that it
              once wasn't one.
              \_ In Italy, it's quite common for people to still identify
                 themselves as communists or fascists. --studied there
              \_ "Fascist" as applied to Mussolini and Hitler's regimes is
                 accurate.
                 \_ Accurate for what?  You mean it's an accurate
                    description of Bush's policies?  Only if "Communist"
                    is an accurate description of Clinton's policy.  Maybe
                    you should re-read the definition of fascim linked to
                    above.
                    \_ "Fascist" is accurate, low on the epithet meter, and
                       acceptable in academic publications when applied to
                       Mussolini and Hitler's regimes.  And I *just* said,
                       please don't use the term fascist to describe the
                       Bush administration.
           \_ If you are a conservative, please don't use the terms communist,
              terrorist, America-hater, etc. etc. to describe liberals.  Can
              we all just get along?!?!
              \_ The word you are looking for is "socialist".
                 Conservatives : fascist :: Liberals : socialist
           \_ The Bush Administration certainly has fascist tendencies. But
              they are also certainly not fascist. At least not as long
              as we continue to have elections and free speech.
                \_ Right.  No one is suggesting Bush is a fascist.  However,
                   his adminstration does appear to be pulling this country
                   more towards that direction.
                   \- is it not obvious that "fascist" when used to describe
                      BUSH CO is indended as an epithet rather than a term
                      from political science, just as when BUSH is described
                      as an idiot or moron it is also an epithet and not a
                      allegation that his tested iq fals into a particular
                      band. same for john ashcroft is a nazi etc. trying to
                      find precision where it isnt intended is ... dumb --psb
2004/7/12 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:32243 Activity:high
7/12    My nightmare seems closer to reality now.
        http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/politics/campaign/12vote.html
        ("Federal officials are looking into what legal authority if any they
        would have to postpone the November presidential election in the
        event of a terrorist strike, a Department of Homeland Security
        official said Sunday.")
        \_ What is your nightmare?  An orderly response to a terrorist attack?
           Note that the NYC mayoral primary was delayed when the attacks hit
           on 9/11 (day of the election).  Considering that a hit would most
           likely be on an urban center (which tend to vote liberal) do you
           think this is a bad thing?
           \_ mayoral primary.  big deal.
           \_ A primary is a quite different.  For one the dates of the
              election are not mandated in the constitution.  For another they
              don't have quite the same importance.  Remember Guilliani also
              tried to get a few more months of his term to "deal with the
              situation" in New York and that made a lot of New Yorkers who
              were previously happy with Gulliani quite grumpy.  He didn't
              get those extra months BTW.
           \_ Have the freepers come to motd?  Usually we have more intelligent
              conservatives posting.
              \_ Do you have a response to the content or are you just another
                 mindless ad hominem drone?
                 \_ Your last sentence ("Considering that ...") speaks for
                    itself.  What are you trying to say in this sentence?
           \_ I think what the poster was referring to is the president might
              create a terrorist event to reschedule the election more to his
              liking.
              \_ Yeah, but I tend to ignore tinfoil hat nutjobs.  He probably
                 thinks Bush orchestrated 9/11.
                 \_ Bush didn't orchestrate 9/11, but he sure took advantage
                    of it in order to topple Hussein, and take away our civil
                    liberties with the un-patriotic act. If there is a
                    terrorist attack *and* Bush has the numbers to lose, don't
                    bother even questioning for a split-second that Bush won't
                    delay the election until he can spin-ster his way to
                    victory.
                    \_ That bastard!  How dare he topple Hussein! -- ilyas
              \_ Teresa Nielsen Hayden: "I deeply resent the way this admin-
                 istration makes me feel like a nutbar conspiracy theorist."
                 I don't think W [w|c]ould orchestrate a terrorist attack.
                 That said, I am deathly afraid of any postponement of the
                 election.  Come up with a better plan, you morons. -op
2017/09/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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