Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:July:01 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2004/7/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:31104 Activity:very high
6/30    So the link:
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124079,00.html
        Regarding Moore's veracity has some troubles itself.
        The number they give about vacations, excluding camp david trips,
        assumes that every weekend was spent at camp david.  This doesn't
        jive with the month long vacations to Crawford.  And excluding the
        Camp David trips doesn't go all that far in negating Moore's point.
        \_ So you agree that Moore is lying, you just disagree with the
           specific numbers?
           \_ Um, no.  I'm saying Fox, even with an invalid qualifier,
              got their numbers wrong. --scotsman
              \_ But the point is still valid that Moore puts weekends at Camp
                 David as part of his "vacation" time.  Is Moore's 42% number
                 exaggerated or not?
        \_ Interesting.  According to <DEAD>csua.org/u/80m<DEAD>
           The first President Bush had a ratio of 37% per year if you include
           weekends at Camp David.  Was he slacking off?
        \_ Moore's source for the 42% is almost certainly this article:
           <DEAD>www.dke.org/haginranch.html<DEAD>
           Interestingly, that was published in 8/2001 and said:
              By the time President Bush returns to Washington on Labor Day
              after the longest presidential vacation in 32 years, he will have
              spent all or part of 54 days since the inauguration at his
              parched but beloved ranch. That's almost a quarter of his
              presidency.

              Throw in four days last month at his parents' seaside estate in
              Kennebunkport, Maine, and 38 full or partial days at the
              presidential retreat at Camp David, and Bush will have spent 42
              percent of his presidency at vacation spots or en route.
           So the percentage is based on the first year up to the end of the
           big vacation, including weekends at Camp David--which of course is
           going to be much higher than the total percent for the first year,
           and has been the highest percentage of the entire presidency.
           It's a pretty disingenuous statistic unless all the qualifiers are
           included.
           \_ So FNC could be correct if they're talking about the entire
              presidency while this article is talking about the most
              vacation-filled part of Bush's presidency.
        They counter the 7 minutes with a politic quote from L Hamilton.
        Fallacy of Appeal to Authority (not to mention an authority that
        the right screamed about for months as being a non-starter
        witchhunt).
        \_ Of course, I credible is FNC these days? If you've ever taken
        \_ Of course, how credible is FNC these days? If you've ever taken
           a look at "Lying Liars and the Liars the tell Them" there are
           documented cases of people on FNC just flat out lying. And
           unlike FNC, Franken actually presents evidence to back things
           up when he accuses others of lying.
        \_ So we disagree about the significance of the 7 mins.  No biggie.
           Moore turns it into something it isn't.
                     The news of Clarke having approved the saudi flights
        didn't come out until June 1st, well after the Palme D'or was
        handed down.
        \_ So here Moore was just incompetent?  No only did Clarke approve the
           flights, but they didn't happen when US airspace was closed (which
           is part of what Moore claims).
           \_ Where do you get "incompetent"?  He said what was general
              knowledge at the time.  Clarke retracted his statement
              some time after the film was released.  This goes to Clarke's
              veracity.  Not Moore's.  --scotsman
           \_ How is the White House magically not responsible for what
              their cabinet does? The Cabinet are the closest direct
              reports to the President and appointed by him. Bush can't
              claim that he is not responsible for their actions, no matter
              what Clarke tries to claim to deflect responsibility onto
              himself.
                      Since I don't have a transcript, I can't address the
        parts about the Taliban visit to Texas, but faulting Moore for
        "not mentioning that THE CLINTON approved the visit" is pretty
        hollow.
        \_ Check the history then.  The visit happened during the Clinton
           administration.  How is this hollow?  He's blaming Bush for letting
           the EVIL TALIBAN in when it wasn't Bush who did it.
           \_ This is why I said "I don't have the transcript."  But I'll grant
              you, he did suggest it.  And will you grant that the Bush admin-
              istration suggested that saddam was involved with 9/11?
              --scotsman
                 Moore has had plenty of harsh words about Clinton and
        other democrats in his books.  But he seemed to be comparing the
              \_ That's right.  When he's done with the right, he's coming
                 after you too.  Be careful who you get into bed iwth.
        tacit approval of THE CLINTON vs. the active support by THE BUSH
        in regards to the Taliban. To wit:

          But do not declare war and massacre more innocents. After
          bin Laden's previous act of terror, our last elected
          president went and bombed what he said was "bin Laden's
          camp" in Afghanistan-but instead just killed civilians.
          Then he bombed a factory in the Sudan, saying it was
          "making chemical weapons." It turned out to be making
          aspirin. Innocent people murdered by our Air Force.

          Back in May, you gave the Taliban in Afghanistan $48
          million dollars of our tax money. No free nation on earth
          would give them a cent, but you gave them a gift of $48
          million because they said they had "banned all drugs."
          Because your drug war was more important than the actual
          war the Taliban had inflicted on its own people, you
          helped to fund the regime who had given refuge to the
          very man you now say is responsible for killing my friend
          on that plane and for killing the friends of families of
          thousands and thousands of people.
          \_ This is a big lie.  The money was to a relief fund administered by
             the UN to relieve the FAMINE in Afghanistan.
             \_ How 'bout the Cato Institute's take?
                http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html
                \_ Cato is anti-american.  Boycott Cato!

                \_ While CATO is useful to find stuff, I can't rely on them
                   alone.  Every news story I find about this says the $43M was
                   in "additional emergency aid" and was the result of
                   perceived efforts in reducing the poppy harvest (which was
                   wrong).  It doesn't say it went to the Taliban, and it
                   doesn't say how the funds were administered.  My
                   understanding is that it was through the UN and was typical
                   aid (food, clothing, medicine, etc.).  Do you have any
                   reason for believing it was a cash payment to the Taliban as
                   Moore suggests?
                   \_ Cato does not say (though kind of impies) that the money
                   \_ CATO does not say (though kind of impies) that the money
                      went to the Taliban.   As far as I can tell that untruth
                      originated in an LA times, by (yet another leftist liar)
                      Robert Scheer.  However, if you think that the taliban
                      got no part/control/benefit of that money (to say, give
                      building contracts to their cronies) then
                      you don't understand how international aid works in
                      autocratic 3rd world countries, even if it was
                      administered "though NGOs" by the U.N.
                      \_ So Moore is arguing that we shouldn't give aid to
                         countries with totalitarian leaders?
                         \_ I don't know about Moore, but I like that
                            argument. --erikred
           \_ Moore said that we gave the Taliban in Afghanistan $48M
              dollars. He did not say what the aid went for. He simply
              say that we gave it. You call this "a big lie" yet you
              agree with him that the money went to Afghanistan, which
              was controlled by the Taliban at the time. How is this
              a lie, again? It matters not if the money went directly
              to the Taliban or indirectly helped them by supporting
              their government and substituting for tax money they
              would have had to spend on the same programs anyway.
        --scotsman
2004/7/1-2 [Uncategorized] UID:31105 Activity:nil
7/1     For whoever was wondering if reeser is good looking, perhaps this
        is more what you're looking for? http://www.askthetechgirl.com
2004/7/1-2 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:31106 Activity:insanely high
7/1     Using sed, how do I do the following?  I want to replace the
        first line containing a particular pattern with the 2nd line
        containing said pattern.  For example, if "line" is the pattern,
        then I want
                this is the 1st line
                this is the 2nd
                this is the 3rd
                this is the 4th line
        to become
                this is the 4th line
                this is the 2nd
                this is the 3rd
                this is the 1st line  (Actually, I don't care if this line
                                       shows up like this or gets deleted.)
        \_ stupid to do this in sed.  use perl.
          \_ OK, how do I do this in perl?
             \_ while ( $line = <> ){
                        if ( $line !~ /line/ ) {
                                $output[$count++]=$line;
                                next;
                        }
                        if ( ! $firstline ) {
                                $firstline = $line;
                                $firstindex = $count++;
                        } else {
                                $output[$firstindex]=$line;
                                $output[$count++]=$firstline;
                        }
                }
                print foreach @output;
                # (Approximately)  -tom
                \_ You don't need the "foreach"
          \_ Just for fun, how can this be done using sed?
             \_ sed is short for "stream editor".  It's designed to look at
                the input one line at a time.  making it handle line operations
                is unholy, and possibly illegal in most states.
             \_ there is nothing fun about doing this in sed.  -tom
                \_ lots of things can be fun if you're avoiding more important
                   work. here it is:

        sed -e '/line/\!bS;:M;$\!N;s/\n.*line/&/;tE;$\!bM;:E;s/^\([^\n]*\)\(\n.
*\n\)\([^\n]*\)$/\3\2\1/;:S'

                   this swaps the 2N-1'th and the 2N'th lines matching "line"
                   for all possible N. if there is an odd number of such
                   lines, the last one is left in place. note that the
                   3 "!"'s are \-escaped for tcsh; your shell might
                   differ. naturally, s/line/foo/g to change pattern.
                   tested on gnu sed 3.02. inserting a few newlines will
                   make this work on soda's sed as well:
                        sed -e '/line/\!bS\
                        :M\
                        $\!N;s/\n.*line/&/;tE\
                        $\!bM\
                        :E\
                        s/^\([^\n]*\)\(\n.*\n\)\([^\n]*\)$/\3\2\1/;\
                        :S'
                                                         -alexf
                               \_ alexf = leet sed god
                                  \_ s/leet sed god/bored new sed user/ -alexf
                \_ sed rules!!!
                   \-first, i probably wouldnt do this in sed either.
                     it may be doable in sed but your description isnt
                     complete, so i cant suggest a solution. do you just
                     want to *swap* 1st match of regexp with second match
                     of regexp? finally, sed can certainly do non-line
                     based things more easily than say grep. see e.g.
                     the , operator. --psb
                        \_ I want the first line that matches regexp to
                           be replaced with the 2nd line that contains
                           regexp.  The entire line need not match regexp,
                           but only contain it.  But I want the entire
                           first line (that contains a match to regexp) to
                           be essentially overwritten by the next line that
                           contains a match to regexp.  -op
        \_ rpn calculator written in sed:
           http://sed.sourceforge.net/local/scripts/dc.sed.html
        \_ just curious, why do you want to do this? seems kinda weird.
           \_ he's trying to troll ilyas into writing it in ocaml
2004/7/1 [Politics/Domestic/SocialSecurity, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:31107 Activity:insanely high 72%like:31117
7/1     Liars and cheaters have bigger brains:
        http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996090
        \_ They need them, keeping track of all the lies.
        \_ Explains why Democrats are "smarter" than Republicans.
           \_ Republicans use their money to buy their lies, and cheat
              people out of their money.
        \_ In monkeys and apes.
2004/7/1-2 [Science/GlobalWarming, Science/Physics] UID:31108 Activity:very high
7/1     Light might have been slower 2 billion yrs ago:
        http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996092
        \_ Just in case you don't know, http://newscientist.com is about as reliable
           a source for science news as *name-of-random-tabloid* for news.
                \_ any better sources?
                   \_ <DEAD>sciencenews.org<DEAD>, and <DEAD>physicstoday.org<DEAD> for physics.
                      There must be others, but be warned that they are
                      all boring: the more reliable the more boring.
                      More generally, science != news != entertainment.
                   \_ Uh, Nature?  Departmental hearsay?  Anything? -- ilyas
           \_ Just by reading the article, I have no clue whether it's real or
              fake.  Are you saying that the article is a hoax, or it's just
              flawed science?
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/India, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:31109 Activity:low
7/1     http://www.awitness.org/news/december_2001/osama_nose_job.html
2004/7/1-2 [Uncategorized] UID:31110 Activity:high
`7/1     In win32 programming is there an overridable function or event that
        occurs just after the window and controls are fully constructed and
        displayed?  Same question for wxWindows.
        \_ In win32, usually after the default procedure handles WM_CREATE.
           WM_INITDIALOG is sent for dialog boxes.
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:31111 Activity:very high
7/1     I don't get what all the hoopla is with the Irish interview of Bush.
        I haven't watched the video, but based on the transcript, it seems
        to me like he gave reasonable responses to all the tough questions.
        http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/06/20040625-2.html
        When I read that Bush "lost it" in the interview, I thought he
        Howard-Dean lost-it. Or Steve Ballmer lost-it.
        \_ I see the interviewer was an *@#hole.
           \_ And I see you're a fucking prude!
        \_ I don't know that there's that much hoopla. He did that "let me
           finish! please! can i finish?" thing a billion times which is
           funny though. That interviewer seemed kind of unintelligent
           though, unable to explain the point about the world being less
           safe. There is a rational argument to be made there but she just
           said (twice) "i don't know if you can see that".
           \_ Well, yeah.  The interviewer was being really rude.  Maybe
              he should have just walked out after the 3rd time.  It
              looked to me like Bush handled it really well.
              \_ walking out could have looked pretty bad. i think the
                 interviewer was just impatient with the predictable answers,
                 but it's her own fault for not asking the right questions.
                 \_ I have to admit that I thought the question about God
                    guiding him was pretty funny.
        \_ Just listened the an audio version. Interviewer comes off
           badly. Bush comes off as pretty competent for someone
           constantly bashed for his poor public speaking.
           \_ link?
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/California] UID:31112 Activity:very high
7/1     <DEAD>www.smartmoney.com/onthestreet<DEAD>
        "There's no question that the FERC has leaned over backward to
        protect the industry at the expense of California," says Peter
        Navarro, associate professor of economics and public policy at the
        University of California at Irvine. "[Vice President Dick] Cheney
        in the middle of the crisis blamed the whole thing on
        environmental regulations that were too stringent. That was
        absurd. Now, we know that there was considerable market
        manipulation going on."
        \_ Fuck Cheney, capitalist scumbag at its best!!
           \_ The power generation and power distribution industry
              is very far from a free market.
              is very far from being a free market.
           \_ Go back to your butcher shop, Lupo.
2004/7/1-2 [Uncategorized] UID:31113 Activity:high
7/1     How come the ones you can't get always look so much better than
        the ones you can??!!
        \_ Old jungle saying: The grass is always greener.
        \_ Why do you think it is that you can't get them?
        \_ 'Cause you are ugly, smelly, and dumb.
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:31114 Activity:very high
7/1     Saddam uses same hand gestures as Clinton, (ie: thumb) scary...
        \_ that is a very common gesture among politicians, McCain
           uses it quite frequently as well
           \_ It's called "gesticulating," don't they teach you people
              anything in school anymore? I mean, c'mon, there are
              words for these things...
              \_ Lamentably no. My gastronomic rapacity knows no satieties.
           \_ Don't disturb his wingnut fantasy with your facts.
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31115 Activity:very high
7/1     Hey Pro-China guy:  Are you trolling, or do you really think people
        should stop blaming China?
        \_ The PRC is the People's paradise on earth!  The freedom from
           evil capitalism and soul-crushing corporations have been
           brought by the glorious revolution.  China only has the most
           altrustic motives for Asia! The Evil Bush is trying to claim
           that China violates it's citizen's civil rights, but nothing
           could be further from the truth!  No one has died in China
           since the revolustion, the joy and peace of the revolution have
           since the revolution, the joy and peace of the revolution have
           made all Chinese immortal! Move to China today!
           -Pro-China guy #1 fan.
        \_ I just think the media is very biased about China.  It is a
           great country, the majority of people are happy, life is
                \_ tanklguy was awesome
           improving, the economy is doing well. Sure, there are a lot
           of things that can be done better, but the progress it has
           made in the last 10-15 years is second to none. Out of the
             \_ funny, I don't know what media, you read, but the media
                I read pretty much says this about china, and little
                else (well, recently there has been some "can it keep up
                the pace") -phuqm
           millions of stories that happen each day in China, the only
           thing that gets reported in the western media is how bad
           the Chinese government is. Oh, they did this, Oh they did
           that. Give me a break. Some would very much like to see
           China go the way of the Soviet and break up into pieces, do
           you really think that's good for the Chinese people?
           Democracy needs to come from within, not forced upon by
           some bully. There are better things to worry about in this
           country, like how BushCo fucked California and laughed all
           the way to the bank.
           \_ Yeah so when democracy comes from within, you should crush it
              with tanks, right?  BTW, what was the name of that guy who
              stood in front of the tank?  The one the entire world saw on
              film?  Oh that's right, we don't and will never know his name
              because shortly after that was filmed he was taken to an
              alley and shot in the head.
              \_ They're still looking for the tank guy.
           \_ So why can't the media report about Hong Kongers being unhappy
              over freedoms they've lost since China took over?  I mean,
              200K+ people in HK really did get out to protest today.
              I was not posting about China people being unhappy; I was
              posting about Hong Kong people being unhappy.
              \_ Goes to show that Taiwan should not unite with PRC
                 anytime soon.
           \_ recent WSJ journal articles reported on the rise of many
              middle class rooted, non-governmental organizations in
              China including home owners' associations which fight
              for the rights and interests of various communities of
              home owners, thousands of environmental groups, etc.
              Non-governmental organizations are important building
              blocks for democracy, since they bunch like-minded
              individuals together and give them support (finance,
              expertise, organizational) and voice.  Without them, it's
              just the all-powerful government and powerless individuals.
              Sounds like a very positive article to me.  In fact,
              many of the WSJ articles about China are very fair
              and balanced, in my opinion.  That's not to say that
              some US media are very anti-China.
              some US media aren't very anti-China.
              \_ Until the Chinese government outlaws these organizations as
                 being anti-revolution and puts a bunch of their leaders into
                 insane asylums.
                 \_ they may try, but will they be successful?  do not
                    underestimate the power of hundreds of millions of
                    little bourgeoisies.  the population make up of
                    china has shifted in the past 3 decades.
                    \_ I am suspecting that the Chinse Communist Party will
                       fall out of power as hardliners die off.  Never
                       underestimate the power of apathy.
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Others] UID:31116 Activity:very high
7/1     If democracy is so great, why are sodans still piss poor?  Where the
        MAJORITY does not get represented, but rather the few elite
        and rich gets to control pretty much everything and the others
        are treated as 2nd, 3rd, 4th class citizen? Explain that to
        me. Most of the old officers you see on soda are from the
        higher class, so they are very different from your average
        user. What they need is a visionary leader that would
        abandon their class system, but under 'democracy', they never
        will. Some users will always be low class citizen, like
        slaves.
        \_ You're right, democracy is a big sham. The People must rule,
           although since we're too stupid our Great Leader will rule for us,
           in his magnificent benevolence! All hail the Great People's Leader!
           All dissidents are evil imperialist lackeys, and must be reported to
           your local People's Information Bureau at once!
        \_ America's a republic, not a pure democracy.  Majority rule is not
           always a good thing.
        \_ I know nothing about India, but I will point out that no one
           ever claimed democracy was perfect, it's just the best thing
           we've come up with so far.  Of course the perfect government
           would be a single person who always makes the right descisions.
           If you can find any such person, I will be happy to live under
           them.
           \_ see. Kingdom of God where God is King
           \_ We don't have the tech for a perfect society yet, even with
              perfect decisions.  Right now rough edges are unavoidable, maybe
              this will change in a few hundred years. -- ilyas
              \_ Yeah, we'll write a computer program to rule us all. Like in
                 the game Deus Ex.
                 \_ That's not the problem.  The problem is scarcity and
                    insufficient understanding of genetics and aging.  Those
                    problems will eventually go away, and that is what will
                    transform society, I think. -- ilyas
                    \_ There's always scarcity of land, even if you somehow
                       get free energy. This is worse if genetics and aging are
                       solved. The western oil-economies are comparitively
                       pretty rich today... I wonder what transformation you
                       expect to see?
                       \_ I heard a projection that the world's population will
                          stabilize at 11 bil.  Most advanced countries today
                          are either breaking even or their population is
                          declining (with the notable exception of the US, due
                          to immigration and other 'exceptionalist' issues).
                          We are not going to run out of land, that's 19th
                          century Malthusian thought.  The 'transformation'
                          I am talking about will have to do with the
                          elimination of most current political issues once
                          certain kinds of economic scarcities go away.  Our
                          society is already very different because information
                          can be copied at virtually no cost in time or
                          money. -- ilyas
                          \_ Well, I don't think birthrates can easily be
                             predicted, and some land is likely to always be
                             more desirable than others. Western families
                             have to work to maintain their lifestyle and don't
                             have much time.
                 \_ You jest, but I think Ilya would actually suggest something
                    along those lines - although I think his term was
                    "benign dictator."
                    \_ But we already have the Illuminati!
        \_ You don't seem to know much about India or Indian politics.
           Most of the people in power today are members of the lowest
           castes. Due to "enlightened" social policy (quota, &c.) most
           high paying powerful government jobs are available only to
           members of the lowest castes. These people, having little
           or no social conscience, do little to help their fellow man,
           prefering instead to shuttle public resources into their
           own private domains.
           own private domains. Its not that democracy doesn't work,
           it is that it does. India is full of low caste uneducated
           people and these are the same people who are ruling the
           nation.
           FYI, the elite of Indian society, the brahmins (about 1-2% of
           the population), were usually among the poorest of all (for
           various religious reasons). The idea that somehow they
           systematically oppressed and continue to oppress the
           lower classes/castes is ridiculous. In fact, most brahmins
           leave India because they find that the social setup makes
           it next to impossible for them to succeed.
           The only way in which I find that one may blame brahmins
           for the woes of India, is this: Nehru was a brahmin. He
           was stupid enough to implement a command economy instead
           of a open and free market. This ruined India for decades.
           Thus if one man represents his caste, it is possible to
           say that the brahmins ruined India.
               \-mr. anon above: just out of curiosity can you
                 tell me where you "learned" all of this?
                 it is so far off, it's not worth correcting
                 but i am curious where it came from. --psb
                        \_ My parents are from India. Some
                           of my family is still there. I
                           frequently visit there.
                           I don't know which part you find
                           issue with, but this is what I
                           have seen and read about.
           \_ There is nasty affirmative action in India which makes it
              really really tough for Brahmins and Kshatriyas.  Stupidity
              doesn't end at US borders, it seems. -- ilyas
              \_ Is it tougher for them than for members of the toilet
                 sweeping and rat catcher castes?
                 \_ As far as, for example, university admissions... yeah.
                    Ask any indian.  -- ilyas
                    \_ how many indians have you asked?  and did you ask
                       them what their castes are?
                       \_ I don't understand why this is relevant.  Everyone I
                          know who is from India says this.  You can google for
                          additional evidence on this.  Do you think I am lying
                          or something?  Ask Partha. -- ilyas
                          \_ I know there is something similar to affirmative
                             action in India.  Please explain why it is "nasty"
                             and "stupid".  And why it is "really really tough"
                             for Brahmins.  Do you really know enough about
                             India to say that?
                             \_ In the words of Tyler Durden: "This conversation
                                is over." -- ilyas
                                \_ difficult to admit you have no clue what
                                   you are talking about, eh?
                 \_ yes. A brahmin needs close to a perfect score on
                    an entrance exam, whereas a "rat catcher" only
                    needs 25%. Do you really want water quality
                    inspected by someone who got in with a 25%?
                    How about your health inspectors? Sometimes
                    it doesn't matter that you are "backwards",
                    there needs to be min standards.
           \_ Are you a brahmin?  If not, what caste are you from?
              And what is your caste all about?
                \_ Yes I am a brahmin.
2004/7/1-2 [Uncategorized] UID:31117 Activity:high 72%like:31107
7/1     Liars and cheaters have bigger brains:
        \_ if you want censor them, censor them all.
        \_ 'Cuz a liar needs to remember both the real version of the story and
           his/her version of the story.  Sometimes the liar needs to remember
           his/her multiple versions of the story.   -- someone whose mom is a
           chronic liar
2004/7/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:31118 Activity:high
7/1     Polish troops find wmd:
        http://tinyurl.com/2fakx (story.news.yahoo.com)
        \_ NO WMDS!  FALSE PREMISES!
        \_ Oooh.  16 warheads filled with mustard and sarin gas...Definitely
           one step away from a mushroom cloud.
           \_ This is the funniest thing about the "Bush lied" crowd.
              "Sure he was breaking his treaties and UN laws, but he
              wasn't breaking them ENOUGH."  As if there was some sort of
              objective measure of how much you can break a law before
              you're considered a criminal.
              \_ Nobody disputes that he was a bad man and a criminal.  What we
                 on the left dispute is whether it was worthwhile to invade,
                 and if it was, we question the motives behind the invasion in
                 light of the fact that there were lots of other bad men to
                 go after.  One of them was named Osama something...
                 \_ Which country is this Osama guy in charge of?
                 \_ Another false premise: that we can only go after one guy
                    at a time.
                    \_ No, it's not a false premise.  We don't even have enough
                       troops to properly secure Iraq, so we're leaving the
                       new government of Afghanistan to fend for themselves.
                       As a result, they control only the capitol and the
                       Taliban is regrouping in the countryside.
                       \_ so you want another 130,000 troops in Afghanistan
                          so we can piss off people in two islamic countries
                          at the same time and surround iran with large forces
                          on both sides so we really would look like we're
                          ready to militarily take over the rest of the middle
                          east.  please say you don't work in PR.
                          \_ That's not what I said.  I said we don't have the
                             resources to take on two countries at once.  We
                             shouldn't have invaded Iraq while we were still
                             busy with Afghanistan.  There was not any
                             urgent need to invade Iraq.  Except for political
                             reasons, it could have waited indefinitely.
           \_ 16 here, 5 there, 7 over there and a few others everyday and
              suddenly you've got a WMD program.  What surprises me about
              the Bush lied crowd is it makes no sense.  If there were none,
              and Bush knew it, why would he use that for the reason to
              attack?  They had several options, WMD wasn't the only reason
              we could have attacked.  So why choose something if you know
              it isn't true?
              \_ Because he arrogantly believed that it wouldn't matter after
                 the Iraqi people welcomed us with open arms and united to
                 create a perfect democracy in the Middle East.  They didn't,
                 so it ended up mattering. As for the WMD program, wait for
                 the analysis of the warheads before making any judgements--
                 if they turn out to be relics of the Desert Storm age, you're
                 going to look very silly.
              \_ As a "Bush lied" person, this is my take on it:  He used WMD
                 as a casus beli because it garnered much more popular
                 support than removing Saddam and doing the "nation building"
                 Bush disavowed in the persidential debates.  Bush knew there
                 would be leftovers from the Iran/Iraq war.  He suspected there
                 were nastier weapons but didn't have any proof, but he
                 figured proof would turn up after the invasion.  So he said
                 they had WMD based on a false hunch.  That makes him a liar.
                 If he said "We think they might have WMD." that would have
                 made him not a liar, but it makes for a lousy speach.
2017/09/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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