Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:June:25 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/6/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:31003 Activity:nil
6/24    Interesting background column on Iraq's interim prime minister:
2004/6/25-26 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:31004 Activity:nil
6/24    Is there a way to download a mail folder from say hotmail to my
        own computer, or the whole account, other than forwarding
        to myself or click and save them one by one?
        \_ for yahoo, there's something called yahoo pops. you might find
           something similar for hotmail.
        \_ MrPostman, a Java pop3 proxy  that allow you to use regular pop3
           client to download hotmail / yahoo email.
        \_ try outlook or outlook express:
2004/6/25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Recreation/Music] UID:31005 Activity:nil
2004/6/25 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:31006 Activity:nil
6/24    Bush is God's gift to mankind. Clinton is a child rapist.
        \_ Stop bringing facts into this thread.
           \_ He's not bringing facts. He's just some ranting Republican.
              \_ Why do you hate America?
                 \_ I don't hate America. I'm just saying that OP said
                    nothing factual.
                    \_ But you said you hate Bush. So surely, you must
                       hate America. You also like Clinton so you also
                       support child rapists.
        \_ where's that guy that says "strawman! strawman!"??
           This is definitely the right moment for him!
2004/6/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:31007 Activity:very high
6/24    Ebert on Fahrenheit 9/11:
        "Fahrenheit 9/11" is a compelling, persuasive film, at odds with the
        White House effort to present Bush as a strong leader. He comes
        across as a shallow, inarticulate man, simplistic in speech and
        inauthentic in manner.
        \_ Just curious but do they call this "Fahrenheit 11/9" in
           "Queen's English" speaking countries?
           \_ bbc calls it exactly what we do.
        \_ Ebert hates America. Boycott Ebert.
           \_ Actually, 9 out of 11 movie critics on love it.
              \_ Exactly. 9 out of 11 liberal media critics hate America.
        \_ I *may* actually go see this, but I don't want to give MM my money,
           so I'll buy a ticket to White Chicks instead and sneak into the
           F911 theater.
           \_ Ah, the principled conservative...
              \_ No.  A conservative has no interest in wasting their time
                 watching the propaganda of a proven liar.  I wouldn't want
                 to see it at a free screening.  It's a waste of time.  The
                 ticket price isn't the issue.
                 \_ Does a conservative wasting his time posting/reading motd?
                    \_ Yes.  It's a better use of my time than seeing Michael
                       Moore's propaganda.  Sometimes things posted here are
                       actually true, context and backed by solid references.
                       If the motd were my only source of information on the
                       world I would have a more accurate picture than Michael
                       Moore provides.
           \_ I will freely give my money to MM.
              \_ Send him a check.  Why are you bothering us?
           \_ Why don't you want to give him your money?  If you don't want to
              give him money, don't see the film.  If you think he's a liar (as
              I believe has been shown) why would you sink to lying to see his
              movie? -emarkp
              \_ I agree 100% with emarkp
              \_ I think people who host Fox News are proven lying scumbags.
                 But I still watch FNC just to keep an open mind. I tell
                 you, the more I watch it the lower opinion I have of
                 the Republican party and their media arm.
                 \_ Sure, but if you were a Nielsen family would you lie on
                    your TV diary? -emarkp
                    \_ We are a Nielsen family.  Well, we were on Real People
                       back in the late 70s for being Nielsens... What was the
                       question? --erikred
                 \_ Proven lying scumbags? Perhaps youd care to share what was
                    said and then back that up with a reference?  Proven means
                    you have proof.
              \_ I've read both the positive and negative reviews and I'm
                 curious to see who I agree with, but at the same time, I do
                 not wish to promote this kind of "documentary" film-making
                 so that real documentaries like Spellbound, Home Movie, and
                 Fast Cheap and Out of Control don't get brushed aside. I
                 think MM and movies like SuperSizeMe and the critical acclaim
                 they are getting is the beginning of a really bad trend akin
                 to the horrible reality television trend we are currently
                 infected with. -op
                 \_ You mean like "The Octopus", "The Jungle", "Unsafe at any
                    Speed", "The American Way of Death", "Silent Spring" or
                    any of those other recent expose' hit pieces?  Yeah, they
                    are really just horribly self-serving and opportunistic.
                    \_ I think it's hilarious that you're comparing "The
                       Jungle" with Super Size Me which is nothing more than
                       Jackass:The Movie for the liberal elite.
                    \_ Yeah, I think "Unsafe at any Speed" matches up
                       pretty well with the crap the MM produces.
                 \_ So split the difference.  Go see a matinee after opening
                    weekend.  That way you're not giving him much money.
                    \_ Just realized another advantage: you'll have the theater
                       to yourself. -emarkp
                       \_ He probably would anyway in most places.
                          \_ Here in LA on a friday night there was a lively
                             crowd, complete with voter registration booths,
                             seething hatred, and anti-Bush bumper stickers.
                             Santa Monica rocks. -- ilyas
2004/6/25-26 [Health/Disease/General] UID:31008 Activity:high
6/24    Insomnia, to the death: (NY Times)
        \_ Did someone here say that he or she had worked
           on similar problems? If so, with whom?
        \_ The topic is quite interesting, but the writing style is barely
           tolerable. E.g., "Lugaresi, a popular teacher at the University
           of Bologna, is a playful man with an easy manner. In one sense
           he is quintessentially Italian: the only time I saw him truly
           upset was when, after taking me to an expensive restaurant,
           he found out I didn't drink wine. But he is also ambitious and
           willing to think outside the conventions of Italian medicine."
           WTF!? Are the conventions of Italian (read "Eye-talian") that
           different from "normal" medicine?
           \_ Don't you see shit like this all the time: she was a Asian
           \_ Don't you see shit like this all the time: she is a Asian
              female but she rises above the confine of eastern tradition and
              breathes through her nose.  What's the fuss?
              \_ I hate that shit. Stereotypes are very popular with the
                 lazy writer.
                 \_ "Paper of record" is a (positive) stereotype too.  NYT
                    itself prefers to clasim "all news that fit to print"
                    itself prefers to claim "all news that fit to print"
                    even though it is no less ridiculous.  Nuance is for
                    the thinking man (and woman).  Don't expect it from
                    ANY news source.
              \_ I do see quite often and it always annoys me, but it's
                 particularly goading to see in "The Paper of Record"
                 (though the Magazine is certainly fluffier than the
                 paper).         - op of comment
                 \_ You hit the nail on the head.  The Magazine part is
                    supposed to be much chummier than the regular NYT.
                    But I'm with you: if I wanted fluff, I'd wait for the
                    novelization.  --op
                    \_ Maybe we should write a group CSUA MOTD letter to
                       the editor. "Dear Editor, Mongoloid, Esq., ..."
                        \_ Great Fortuna's Wheel!  Is that a true Ignatius
           \_ I noticed there was no mention of any of them commiting suicide
              or requesting euthanasia.
2004/6/25-26 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/OS/OsX, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:31009 Activity:high
6/24    Yay, IE6 vulnerability that affects fully patched systems, that
        allows local machine access (downloading and running any .exe) on
        previewing an e-mail or browsing a web site (including pop-up)!
        System administrators rejoice!
        \_ IE on mac os x not affected, supposedly. :-)
           \_ The payload is a Windows executable, but I wonder if the same
              IE hole doesn't exist on Macs too...
              \_ It's probably not as easy to execute arbitrary due to diff.
                 in underlying API.  Also the mac division of MS is complete
                 separate and semi-autonomous/forgotten from the rest.
        \_ But the report I read from the "Get the Facts" Roadshow said
           that Microsoft is the fastest at fixing security holes!
           \_ That's because their security holes are all the same.  They just
              keep on making the same mistakes over and over again.  Besides,
              how hard is it to fix a buffer overrun hole?
        \_ Infect yourself!  (with a "harmless" one)
           It overwrites C:\Program Files\Windows Media Player\wmplayer.exe
           and runs the new one, then restores it when it's done.
           \_ Gee, this sounds like GREAT advice.
           \_ Has no visible effect on safari.
              \_ sploit only affects IE, and probably only on Windows.
2004/6/25-26 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:31010 Activity:insanely high
6/25    Why did both the Mongols and the Manchus move their capitals to Beijing
        when they conquered China respectively?  Why would a superior country
        want to move its capital from home to the inferior country that it
        \_ Haven't you ever read The Prince by Machiavelli?  A full explanation
           of why it's a good idea to move your rule to conquered territory
           is contained in that.
        \_ Your lack of historical knowledge is truly appalling. The Mongols
           and the Manchus conquered China with the help of other Chinese
           factions. In order to maintain China as a unified whole it was
           always necessary to keep the capital in Beijing. Also, the
           Mongol hordes were nomadic so they didn't exactly have a
           concept of centralized government or planning. In order to
           rule China proper they had to inherit the vast bureaucracy of
           the previous dynasty.
           \_ I see.  My historial knowledge only came from three years of
              Chinese Histroy classes in high school plus all those Mandarin
              TV dramas on Ch26 over the years.
                \_ next time stay awakey
                \_ next time stay awake
           \_ Thanks, Pai Mei.  Now, go ahead and eat those fish heads.
           \_ I would like to add several things.  First.  Beijing was a
              small town prior to Mogols established its dynasty.  The logic
              behind establishing a city up in the north is that, believe or
              not, they want to be able to bail out relatively easily in case
              things went wrong (which it did in a relatively a short time of
              120 years).  Ming Dynasty, the dynasty established by ethnic
              Hans, originally established the capital in Nanjing.  It took
              a political coup and an emporer of grand vision to decide that
              it's easier to finish those mongols off if the capital is up
              north.  Manchus, the dynasty after that, decided that they
              really don't need to burn down the perfectly fine palace like
              all other ruling family did.  So, they inheired the palace and
              expanded.  Mind you that at the time, Manchuria was three times
              larger than what present Manchuria was.  So, lattatude wise, it
              was pretty close the centered.            -kngharv
                 [motd formatd: learn to queue in line]
              \_ Thanks for the insight!  -- OP
              \_ I am sure OP was a troll but just to amend what you wrote.
                 Beijing has been a town of varying significance for a very
                 long time, going back to at least to the 11th century BC when
                 it was the capital of the principality of Yan.  There were
                 many periods prior to the Mongol when it was not a small town.
                 many periods prior to the Mongol when it was >> a small town.
              \_ nah, before the Mongols invaded China, northern China was
                 already conquered by the Jurchens and it is called the
                 Jin.  Southern China is called the Sung (or Southern Sung,
                 after it lost the north).  Jin fell in 1234, and Mongols
                 started building Daidu (Beijing) in 1267.  Sung survived until
                 1279.  I think the Mongols were just too lazy to move again.
                 Daidu is also close to the capital of Jin and the capital
                 of the Liao, so it's not like it's built out of nowhere.
                 Same for the Manchus, they did not have a tight grip on
                 southern China until much later after they conquered the
                 north, so they already established the capital in the north.
                 \_ All the stuff you said didn't contradict with what I
                    mentioned.  Again, there are a lot of historical reasons
                    why Beijing became a city of importance.  And to the Han
                    Chauvinist below, Beijing became important mainly due to
                    minority tribe's effort.  Important Han capitals are
                    LuoYang, KaiFeng, and to lesser extent, ChangAn.
                                -mutt blood
                    \_ ok ok, I don't disagree with you.  Another reason
                       is simply that the capital followed the economic
                       center of the country, which was originally
                       further west in chang'an and luoyang with its rich
                       loess plains.  later on, due to weather changes,
                       that region became less important.
                       And then whomever ruled the Zhong Yuan plain, the
                       biggest undivided (by rivers and mountains)
                       piece of real estate of China, tend to eventually
                       conquer and rule the whole country, so the capital
                       moved there (kaifung, liao and jin capitals, daidu,
                       ...).  Economic center later shifted further to the
                       south, so sometimes, a southern capital was also
                       viable.  Another argument is that China's threats
                       historically (and in modern times too) tend to come
                       from the north, so it was better to have the capital
                       there to better deal with these threats.  Army
                       became more centrally controlled (to reduce chance
                       of regional "warlords" becoming too powerful), but
                       then it needed to be closer to where the external
                       threat was.  Having it in the Yangtze region would
                       mean the reaction time would be way too slow for
                       any disturbance in the north.
        \_ Better housing?  And easier to govern the country from a more
           central location?  Just my guess.
           \_ Central location is the most common capital placement,
              though border changes may leave the original capital
              in an unusual position (Washington DC).
              \_ But Beijing's location is strikingly similar to Washington DC.
                 It was already not the central location when they moved the
                 capitals there.
        \_ better babes!
                \_ Have you been to beijing?
                   \_ GWB has and he agrees.
                      \_ GWB isn't looking for tail.  You mean Clinton.
                         \_ GWB went to Beijing decades ago so he could cuz
                         \_ GWB went to Beijing decades ago cuz
                            of the hot babes there.  He admitted as much.
                   \_ Have you been to Mongolia?
                   \_ Are you gay?
                   \_ I like this beijing babe:
                        \_ This is not a babe. This is a stick insect in a
                      She is Manchu / Jurchen ... whose ancestors ruled
                      northern China when the Mongols invaded.
        \_ Why did the europeans move their capitals to america?
           \_ They did?  Wasn't London still the British capital back then, for
              \_ That's the capital for the folks left behind.
        \_ why not?  really, why not?  Things like this happened more often
           in history (not just in China) than you may have heard.
        \_ Because they knew their civilization sucked, and in the long run,
           their only hope was to get assimilated into the Great Han Civilization
                                                - Great Han Chauvinist
           their only hope was to get assimilated into the Great Han
           Civilization                  - Great Han Chauvinist
           \_ ohh please, I can almost guarentee that you are a mutt too.
              It's impossible to find pure Han in China after thousands of
              years of wild sex.
              \_ can't you tell what is a troll?
                 \_ unfortunately, there are small number of people who really
                    think that way, I am afraid this is not.
                    \_ But you are wrong in this case.  Real Han Chauvinists
                       don't call themselves Chauvinist, except for this one
                       kook on the usenet.  By the way, do you have some
                       historical grievances against the Great Han
                       Civilization?  Did we subject your lesser barbaric
                       "civilization" to annual tribute of material goods
                       and beautiful women, as acknowledgement of our
                       superiority?  Did we administer a tender loving
                       chastisement on your minor tribe when you tried to rebel
                       like a naughty child?  Believe me, it's for your own
                       good, and only helps to pull you out of your miserable
                       stone-age barbaric existence.  Learn to live with it
                       or be conquered.  Either way you will be assimilated
                       into the Great Han Civilization.  Don't choose the
                       painful way.                - Great Han Chauvinist
           \_ Why do you hate Mongols?
              \_ Goddamn Mongolian! You break down my shitty wall last time!
2004/6/25-26 [Finance/Investment] UID:31011 Activity:high
6/25    What is a commmon ratio between wholesale and normal retail
        prices?  I assume it exists as economic forces would equilize
        widely unequal margins.
        \_ totally depends on the type of goods and their cost
           \_ Margin - cost ratio should be relatively uniform or people
              all flock to trade the ones with higher profit.
              \_ uh, no.  -tom
              \_ You poor idealistic fool.
                 \_ You say what I learned in Econ 1 is wrong?
                    \_ No, I say you don't understand what they were telling
                       you in Econ 1.  Wholesale vs. retail price is only
                       one of many factors in determining profit margin.  -tom
        \_ I think >5% for new cars, 1-2% for groceries.
                \_ I think you are thinking of net not gross.
        \_ If you don't move a lot of volume, you ned a higher markup to cover
        \_ If you don't move a lot of volume, you need a higher markup to cover
           your overhead (think jewelery).  If you move a lot of product
           (milk in grocery stores) or your product is very expensive (cars)
           than you can cover overhead with a smaller margin.
           \_ Is there a place to look up actual stat. for different classes
              of product?
        \_ My mom is in retail (women's clothing) and she normally doubles the
           wholesale cost. She gives her employees 30% off, which is what she
           considers her break-even point.
           \- hello since i am stuck in my office for 45 min ...
              the econ1 is view roughly "in competitive markets rents or
              surplus profits cannot be extracted". this means the return
              on capital is about the same. in other words, what a company
              selling plums or highend stereos makes on a $1m of investment
              isnt going to be too different [as well as the returns at
              different stages of the pipeline ... assuming each stage is
              competitive]. how ever costs != wholesale cost. obviously
              in the case of safeway, s significant portion of the safeway
              price of a tomato is going to be what they are paying their
              supplier. in the case of diamond, there is the advertising,
              in the case of highend stereos, you have to invest more in
              salesmen than you do if you are selling tomatos. naturally
              this is wildly simplified and it's not immediately obvious
              when a mkt is competitive. in fact you may go backwards and
              look to see if excess profits appear to be present somewhere
              as a sign of mkt power ... although i dont know too much about
              econometrics in terms of what can be observed cheeply/accurately
              and with fair preceision. so it may be reasonable to ask what
              the w'sale/retail markup is in some domain [although what that
              domain is isnt clear ... mcdonald probably has larger margins
              on coke and fries than 99cent double cheeseburgers] but that
              is not a "globallly conserved property" ... also it is unclear
              over what large domain you would expect equillibriation ...
              states, nations, world, local markets etc. microecon is the
              basics for this question but then you can do into econometrics
              or IO. IO is pretty interesting.
2004/6/25-26 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:31012 Activity:kinda low
6/25    Wow, that's neat.  Firefox 0.9 doesn't load
        (gets stuck loading the ad)  Is that a bug or a feature?
        \_ worked for me then i hit reload now it doesnt work. ff.9
           actually, it loaded just took a while. ie took a while as well.
        \_ Do you have http pipelining enabled?  Does it not work at all,
           or just take a very long time?  Finally, are you blocking the ads?
           I'm trying to reduce a test case; I've seen this on too.
           \_ I turned on pipelining via modifying prefs.js, and it still
              takes ~ 30 seconds to load either way.  IE loads drudgereport
              right away.  Apparently the banner ad is slow -- this stalls
              firefox, but IE renders the rest of the page anyway.  The
              firefox pop-up blocker option on/off does not affect this.
              \_ The ad server seems not to be up at all. It stalls both
                 mozilla and IE for me.
              \_ Actually, I was thinking that pipelining was causing the
                 problem (eg, by forcing the page rendering to wait for the
                 img data)... also, about:config >>> prefs.js
2004/6/25-26 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java] UID:31013 Activity:insanely high
6/25    What percent of security holes would be solved by banning strcpy()
        in favor of strncpy()?
        \_ probably not much, since they're all coming to be php bugs these
        \_ Or using Java instead of C (no buffer overrun)?
                \_ It is not always possible to use java. I have customers
                   who tell me that they will not allow a jvm to run on
                   their systems for security reasons (the sun jvm cannot
                   be audited by their internal code reviewers). For such
                   people the only choice is C (don't tell me to write a
                   network application in lisp, just don't). I have other
                   customers who need software that will run within a 16 mb
                   memory footprint. Unless you use Java MicroEdition it is
                   not possible to get java to standup and do something
                   useful on such systems. Even with ME, it is tough since
                   lots of libs aren't available in ME.
           \_ Any other cool things Java invented that we should know about?
                -- ilyas
              \_ I'm not sure that the PP said or implied anything that this
                 response is relevant to.  Perhaps if you externalized your
                 wit a little more, your point would be less obscure.
                 \_ Sorry I wasn't trying to be witty.  It's a bit of a sore
                    point with me when people advocate the worst possible
                    language with good_feature_001.  For instance "We chose
                    perl because perl has GC." -- ilyas
                    \_ heh, my favourite feature in any programming language
                       is how much I'd be paid to program in it.  Currently
                       msvc++ 6.0 is my mostest fav. language. - pst
                    \_ Ahh, okay.  Thanks for clarifying.
                    \_ You should probably inform all those fortune 500
                       companies out there that they're using the worst
                       possible language then.
                       \_ Ah yes, the Fortune 500, the yardstick of
                          technological sanity, and general common sense.
                            -- ilyas
                          \_ OK, academia, global 2000, most web shops,
                             most enterprise software companies...
                             \_ We've had similar arguments on the motd many
                                times before, and I tire of them.  They boil
                                down to "popular!=good".  Anyone familiar with
                                MS Windows knows this.  Let's change the
                                subject, shall we? -- ilyas
                                \_ But "popular != bad". Get off of your
                                   Ocaml horse and join the rest of us
                                   \_ I like things other than ocaml.  I even
                                      think ruby's kind of neat (if only someone
                                      would get off their lazy ass and write
                                      a good compiler for it).  Anyways, it's
                                      true that popular != bad, but if you think
                                      Java == good, I weep for your immortal
                                      soul.  -- ilyas
                                      \_ I weep for your soul if you think the
                                         mess that is functional programming
                                         is good.
                                         \_ Want a hanky?  I am well aware this
                                            is a troll, but I ll try to speak
                                            in good faith.  I don't know where
                                            you got the idea that I like
                                            'functional programming.'  I like
                                            things like lisp, and it is true
                                            that lisp is more 'functional' than
                                            Java, but lisp is also more
                                            'object oriented' than Java, since
                                            CLOS is much more powerful than
                                            Java's object system, and lisp is
                                            also more 'procedural' than Java,
                                            if for no other reason than
                                            because it doesn't have the moronic
                                            statement/expression duality.
                                            Languages that I tend to like tend
                                            to be multi-paradigm languages.
                                            The radical idea being that
                                            different jobs require different
                                            approaches. -- ilyas
           \_ wow. get a slow ass application just to avoid using strncpy
              \_ have you checked out the latest in Java with regards to
                 performance?  It's not 1997 anymore...
                \_ yes, 30 times slower than C++, 15 times slower than .Net
                   \_ we're talking about a real implementation, not your
                      half-baked hobbyist implementation.
                      \_ then again we didn't use super servers for the java
        \_ It's not really an answerable question, but if you're in a
           position to encourage/mandate its use, it's a good idea-- note
           also the strl* family from openbsd.  Having BSD code is nice because
           you can wedge it into systems that don't provide it themselves.
        \_ strncpy sucks too; it's not guaranteed to null-terminate the
           destination string.  Use strncat instead.
        \_ I would recommend using snprintf instead of the str* functions.
           snprintf will tell you if the buffer size has been exceeded,
           while the others won't. Also snprintf guarantees that the string
           will be null terminated.
           \_ snprintf wasn't added to the C standard library until C99, but
              most people still have C89 implementations.  Also, although many
              libraries provided their own snprintf function, the exact
              behavior varies slightly from implementation to implementation.
2004/6/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:31014 Activity:kinda low
        FCC attempt to relax media ownership rules overturned yesterday.
        \_ So... do the new regulation disagree with the constitution of
        \_ So... do the new regulations disagree with the constitution of
           some existing law?
        \_ Clearly this is a result of the ring wing controlled fascist BushCo
           state thwarted in their attempt to gain control of the ring wing
           controll fascist business owned media conglomerates!
           \_ no, it's the corporate controlled BushCo state thwarted in their
              attempt to further reduce competition and alternative voices.
2004/6/25-27 [Computer/SW/OS/Misc, Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:31015 Activity:nil
6/25    If you are running ISC Dhcpd 3.0.1rc{12,13} consider upgrading
        to rc14:
2004/6/25-26 [Computer/HW/CPU, Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:31016 Activity:nil
6/25    OpenBSD SMP support now available on Opteron:
2018/11/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:June:25 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>