Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:June:14 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>
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2004/6/14 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Politics/Domestic/California] UID:30780 Activity:insanely high
6/13    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040613/D836DRJ00.html
        So, after 50+ years of miltiary, economic and diplomatic warfare
        against extreme leftism, the Europeans are going to simply elect
        them to office.  If I cared about Europe, I'd be pissed off.  But I
        don't so I think it's funny.
        \_ Socialist governments elected are a far cry from what the Warsaw Pact
           countries were like.
        \_ Socialist governments elected are a far cry from what the Warsaw
           Pact countries were like.
        \_ And in other news, the Gipper's body is now spinning like a
           turbine.
        \_ "Overall, center-right parties won, taking between 247 and
           277 seats in the 732-member European Parliament, according
           to preliminary projections. The center-left group, which
           includes lawmakers from British Prime Minister Tony Blair's
           Labour Party and Schroeder's Social Democrats, finished
           second - with an expected 189 to 209 seats."
           So, what exactly are you talking about?  -tom
           \_ Way to ignore the important parts of the article where the
              Socialists are taking over the various governing bodies of the
              individual countries!  You score 1 twink point for bad trolling.
              No one cares about the EU Parliament.  They don't do anything.
           \_ I guess if any socialist anywhere has any power, the Cold War
              was lost, even if they were elected lawfully to a temporary
              position in an orderly democratic process.
              \_ You don't remember Chili, don't you?  they did democratically
                 elected a communist government.  we overthrew it.
                 \_ Chili is a stew, Chile is a country.
              \_ It's okay to say that you don't know.
              \_ Here we go... Do you know who else was lawfully elected to
                 power in the early-mid 20th century?  I won't say it.
                 \_ Awesome.  You Godwin'd an otherwise reasonable thread
                    in record time!  Way to go!
                 \_ You mean that damned Socialist Roosevelt?
           \_ Sweden has been electing Democratic Socialist governments
              to power for the last 50 years with no discernable ill
              effects, except for perhaps universal free health care.
              \_ Sweden?  You really think any large country can be run like
                 Sweden?
                 \_ you are right.  large countries should be run like India.
                    Small countries should be run like Singapore.
2004/6/14 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:30781 Activity:insanely high
6/13    ilyas, of the entire motd how many do you admit to post and respond?
        According to my spy program it appears that you've posted 1/4 of the
        questions and 1/2 of the responses.
        \_ The entire motd is me having a conversation with myself.  I wrote
           you AND your spy program too.  Down, rebellious subroutine, down!
             -- ilyas
           \_ back to the game grid, program!
        \_ Hehe, your spy program?  I have one, too, but it can't be perfect,
           thus naming names isn't appropriate.
        \_ Quick test, o guru: who am i?
        \_ spy program? how?
           \_ between fstat, watching the proc tables, and user activity you
              can vaguely correlate motd edits with active users but since
              a lot of action happens *very* fast and some of us merge in
              other's edits by hand which can take a few minutes, others are
              copying in via ssh or other methods, etc, etc, etc, it isn't
              really possible to guarantee that who he thinks is editing the
              motd is really the person doing the editing.  my scripts are
              pretty accurate but there isn't enough accurate informaton
              available to guarantee who is doing what so i mostly keep it
              to myself.
                \_ give us a report please? I want to get an estimate of
                   the # of people modifying and reading motd.
2004/6/14 [Computer/SW/Languages/Functional] UID:30782 Activity:kinda low
6/13    Dear computer scientists, do you prefer to use the more complicated
        but potentially rich abstract syntax tree to traverse through nodes,
        add attributes, pass in/out flow sets for flow analysis, or do you
        prefer the simplicity of using top-down traversal of syntax directed
        translation? What are the pros/cons of using either method?
        \_ I had Hilfinger for nodes and trees.  I no longer care about nodes
           and trees.  I now understand there is more to life than nodes and
           trees.  The nice doctors are helping me.
2004/6/14-15 [Uncategorized] UID:30783 Activity:very high
6/14    This is probably a stupid question, but what happens when a thread
        (say 1 of 10) calls fork()?  Does the new process have 10 threads
        too?
        \_ Guessing wildly, I'd say it depends on the thread implementation
           (kernel threads? posix threads? etc)
        \_ Isn't this something you can test?
        \_ Yes.  Possibly.
2004/6/14-15 [Computer/Theory, Science/Electric] UID:30784 Activity:very high
6/14    I finally read my first Asimov book: I, Robot.  What's the next book
        I should read?  I should mention that I liked the peaceful, not much
        happening storyline of I, Robot.
        \_ Asimov is a complete hack.  You should read some good science
           fiction instead.  I suggest Dan Simmons, "Hyperion." -tom
           \_ I liked Hyperion. The next book was such a slog I lost interest
              in reading anything further (in the Hyperion series). -- ulysses
        \_ "Pebble in the Sky," "The Stars, Like Dust" and "Currents of Space"
           Stars like Dust is really good. - pst
        \_ Looks like they butchered it for the Will Smith movie, but ah well.
           Try the first three Foundation books - they are as classic as
           I, Robot but an exploration of very different topics.  Asimov later
           tried to link up his Foundation and Robot series with follow ons,
           but its still those first three Foundation books that really do it
           for me.
           \_ Yeah, about half-way through the book I realized that the movie
              will be nothing like the book.  I've been meaning to read his
              books for a while anyway, and the movie was just enough of a
              catalyst to get me to pick up a book.  The back of the book
              had some summaries for his other books, and it sounds to me
              that the movie might be closer to the other robot series with
              the detective.  Anyway, the descriptions of the Foundation
              series doesn't grab me much.  Any recommendation for another
              of the Robot series?
              \_ Well, there's The Robot Series: Caves of Steel, Naked Sun,
                 Robots and Dawn, Robots and Empire, Robots and Earth
                 Then technically the later Foundation books continue it,
                 but Asimov tried to put all of his fiction in one timeline,
                 so everything's somewhat interconnected.
              \_ So you've read the movie script?
           \_ I respectfully disagree, but I have no replacement suggestion.
              The Foundation series did absolutely nothing for me.  Since it's
              some of his earliest stuff, I chalked that up to youthful
              rough edges.  If you do read the Foundation series, please tell
              us how you think it compares to I, Robot.  I'll wait for your
              review before reading I, Robot myself.
              \_ I liked the individual Foundation books but the links between
                 them were a bit forced and weak.
           \_ Is it true that Asimov had no idea how to resolve the Foundation
              series? ie, it goes off into a different direction at the end
              of Foundation & Earth, but he had no idea how to get it back on
              course (if you read the book, you'll know what i mean)
        \_ "Never let your sense of morals prevent you in doing what is right."
        \_ I think it should explicitly be mentioned that _I, Robot_ is
           a collection of short stories and not a novel unto itself.
           \_ Yeah, but they fit the timelines of development.  I was just
              at B&N browsing for my next book and the first story from
              another book _Robot_Dreams_ was a chapter verbatim from
              _I,_Robot_.  But my next book to read is the Hitchhiker's Guide.
2004/6/14-15 [Uncategorized] UID:30785 Activity:high
6/14    I thought this tinyurl-generated URL was pretty appropriate:
        link:tinyurl.com/ssux
        \_ OMG WTF LOL
           \_ BBQ
              \_ BYOBBBQ
2004/6/14 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:30786 Activity:nil
6/14    Stuka!  JU-87 is the STANDARD!
2004/6/14-15 [Computer/Companies/Yahoo] UID:30787 Activity:very high 53%like:11666
6/14    For those with Yahoo mail accts, how large is your bulk mail folder?
        I'm at 3185.
        \_ Don't you hit quota limits by that point? I always have to flush
           out around 1500 (which is to say, weekly)
           \_ They stopped counting stuff in your bulk mail folder against
              your quota.
              \_ yes.. about 8 months ago they stopped counting messages
                 in your spam and deleted items folders against your quota.
                 you could actually just let them sit there and they will
                 begin deleting them automatically when they are more than
                 90 days old... i think it's 90 days. -shac
2004/6/14 [Recreation/Computer] UID:30788 Activity:high
6/14    http://www.thewebshite.co.uk/nickelback.htm
        Nickelback is recycling.
        \_ http://www.wtfomg.com
2004/6/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/911] UID:30789 Activity:very high
6/14    if Osama gets caught, give him a sex change operation, big
        boobs and release him naked through the streets of saudi arabia
        \_ first, give him a queer makeover
           \_ Queer Eye For The Fear Guy?!
        \_ if osama gets caught, we're not gonna find out till at least
           a year later, if at all.
           \_ Smart money says he's already dead.  How do you get bi weekly
              kidney dialysis in a cave?!
              \_ By the grace of Allah!  Duh!
              \_ Smart money says that BushCo has him locked up overseas
                 somewhere and will unveil him in time for the election.
                 \_ No, that would be the long odds.  I give you 35:1.
                 \_ Nah, there won't be that big an october surprise.  It'll
                    be Al Zarakawi (sp?) the #2 guy that's been given us some
                    problems recently or maybe Al Sadr.
              \_ Nah, he was always a hypocondriac.  He isn't nearly as ill
                 as he always seemed to think he was or he would've been dead
                 years ago.
2004/6/14 [Politics/Domestic] UID:30790 Activity:nil
6/14    ilyas, I hate my country, the US of A. It is filled with American
        hating citizens. It doesn't have a sense of unity. The blacks hate
        the whites and the Repubs hate the Dems and they can't agree on
        anything. So let me ask you this. What do you like about America
        and why did you emigrate from the great Mother Russia?
        \_ Probably there are less obvious ways to troll for Ilya responses.
2004/6/14-15 [Recreation/Dating] UID:30791 Activity:insanely high 64%like:30772
6/12    I'm going to switch my provider this month and the new gals don't
        offer BBFS. Does anyone know of a cheap (~ $500/mo) provider
        who is reasonably reliable and gives you good GFE? I've been told to
        take a look at http://lovings.com but I'd like to hear other suggestions.
        tia.
        \_ Cheap. Fast. Good. Pick two.
           \_ obYermomJoke
        \_ Try the yahoo personals
        \_ what is bbfs?
           \_ bare back...
              \_ .... service?
           \_ big black ?
           \_ big booty ...?
        \_ what is gfe? girlfriend experience?, gay fucking experience?
           \_ gay fisting excitement
           \_ girl friend experience
        \_ can someone rephrase this in English?
2004/6/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/Europe, Recreation/Sports] UID:30792 Activity:very high
6/14    Is anybody watching the Euro 2004 soccer stuff? Is that PPV only?
        \_ WHY DO YOU SUPPORT TERRORISTS?
        \_ the people i know watching at home are doing pay per view.
           i havent checked but kezar pub may be showing. i am mostly
           interesting in watching english football holligans, however. --psb
           interested in watching english football holligans, however. --psb
           \_ Apparently this was the first one: http://csua.org/u/7r3
              \_ You may wish to read "Among The Thugs". Yobbos like:
                 Lager in pint glasses, Lager in 2l bottles, The Queen,
                 The Falkland Islands, ManU, Maggie Thatcher, Goals,
                 Rolex, War movies, Catholic Church [!?], Being abroad,
                 Expensive Sweaters [!?], Sausages, Lots of Money, Themselves.
                 Oi! --psb
           \_ Here you go: http://csua.org/u/7r5
2004/6/14 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:30793 Activity:insanely high
6/14    I accidentally deleted an email message a few minutes ago
        with pine - how can I retrieve it?  Thanks.
        \_ If you used mh, girls would be all over you. Because what turns
           a hot girl on more than a geek who doesn't shower and spends
           his time checking his mail via mh and composing e-mails in vi?
        \_ If you used mh it would have been trivial to save a second copy of
           all your emails.  But, oh wait, you used pine.  Shit, I dunno.
           Sorry!
           \_ actually if op used mh, then all he would have neede to do
              would be:
                mv Mail/<folder>/#<msg num> Mail/<folder>/<msg num>
                mv Mail//# Mail//
                \_ oh yeah, forgot.  I changed the default.
        \_ cat/dd the raw disk device or memory into a (big) file and
           trawl throug there. you may already be too late. i have recovered
           stuff from emacs crashes/errors a few times that way. --psb
                \_ most pine users lack the necessary fu.
           \_ don't have permissions to access these on soda, or I don't
              know how. Thanks.
              \_ if you knew how you wouldn't be a pine user....
        \_ Too bad.  Ask the original author to resend it.
2004/6/14-15 [Uncategorized] UID:30794 Activity:moderate
6/14    Interesting article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5174391
        Makes you think about going nuclear.
                                    \_ nu-ku-lar
                                        \_ Why do you hate Jimmy Carter?
                                        \_ I love former President Jimmy
                                           Carter for introducing us to this
                                           word.
2004/6/14-16 [Health/Sleeping] UID:30795 Activity:insanely high
6/14    Why does the psb not \_?  Why does the psb insist on \_?  Can someone
                                                   \- i dont "inisist" on
                                                      it. the only thing i'd
                                                      come close to insisting
                                                      on is 80col and captioned
                                                      urls. --psb
        please explain this to me so that I can sleep at night?!
        \_ psb was \_ before the standard was adopted, and he has been
           grandfathered in.
           \- But there can be only ONE standard! </highlander accent>
           \_ But there can be only ONE standard!
              \_ ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!
                 \_ Just couldn't hold back, could you?  Its people like you
                    that will destabilize the motd for years to come!
                    \_ The sorry thing is that he's not even quoting it right.
                    \_ damn it!  get it right.  He is going to destroy the
                       motd's credibility for generations to come!  Fear!
                       Uncertainty!  Doubt!  Spread it far, wide, and thick!
                       Keep telling the Big Lie!  YAY Stalinist tactics!
        \_ German artillery! German artillery is the best!
        \_ Old motd saying:
           The ways of the gods cannot be understood by mere mortals.
           - psb # e^(2pi*i) fan!
        \_ Not only does he \_ but he also has some fucked up indenting
           scheme where it's a  pain in the ass to tell what text belongs
           to which thread.
        \_ answer to the first question-- he started \_ long before \_ was
           defacto. And old men can't change their ways, like tom, so there.
           As for why he interrupts other people's responses in the middle,
           it's actually pretty deep. You see psb tries to appear to be tough
           and intelligent, but he is pretty insecure about it and doesn't
           like to be perceived as stupid (he really cares about what other
           people think about him), so he projects this tough/intelligent
           image to protect his fragile ego.
                                -someone who knew partha in the old days
           \_ thank you, anonymous coward.  -tom
              \_ You're welcome.
              \_ what are *you* thanking anyone for?  you barely got a side
                 note.
                 \_ well *you* got nothing at all, loser!!
                    \_ i also didn't thank anyone for it.  i was happy to be
                       anonymous, forgotten and ignored.
        \_ Undergraduates these days have no sense of their place in the
           grand scheme of things. Yours is not to question the ways of
           the gods or Partha. --psb fan
           \_ Not just undergraduates but all of you scum who would dirty His
              Holy Shadow by daring to tread upon it!  --psb #1 Fan
              \- first of all, why do you care about \- vs \_. woudl it
              \_ first of all, why do you care about \_ vs \_. would it
                 bother you if someone used say \__? how about people who
                 center their wall posts? secondly, as i have said before,
                 when i put a reply in the middle of a post, it is because
                 i am replied to a specific point located there. if you are
                 \_ i am replied? this seems unusual even by psb standards.
                    and i'm interrupting the post so that it is clear what
                    exactly i am referring to.
                 too leem to follow the original thread based on preserved
                 indentation, i dont know what to say. i feel some small,
                 slight pity for you. actually i dont. maybe if you were
                 non-anon. --psb
                 \_ The Great One has replied to me!!!  For the first time!!!
                    I am going to save this, back it up to hundreds of
                    different computers across a p2p network and put printouts
                    in 5 different countries!!!  --psb #1 Fan
                 \_ I think your way is cool. Really. (I can't speak for
                    --psb #1 fan though).
                 \_ I also think your way cool.
                    \- gee i didnt realize this rose to being "my way".
                       maybe i should patent it.
                             For what is a man, what has he got?
                             If not himself, then he has naught.
                             To say the things he truly feels;
                             And not the words of one who kneels.
                             The record shows I took the blows -
                             And did it my way.
                         --psb
2004/6/14 [Recreation/Dating] UID:30796 Activity:insanely high
6/14    http://www.theinquirer.net/images/ads/Inquirer/vialass.jpg
        anyone know where i can get more pics of this chick.  anyone
        know who she is, etc?
        \_ That's my girlfriend!
        \_ you must be a white boy. she's not even all that hot. certainly
           not hot enough to be worth stalking.
           \_ I'm a white boy.  I don't think she's anything special.  You
              must be an asshole.  You're certainly not worth stalking.
        \_ that's one of sky's gfs
2004/6/14 [Politics/Domestic/Gay, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30797 Activity:nil 72%like:30887
6/14    Look, The Army goes gay!
        http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=6042
2004/6/14 [Computer/SW/Languages, Consumer/PDA] UID:30798 Activity:insanely high
6/14    I just heard of this microsoft patent for clicking on handheld
        computer.  Isn't this insane?  Doesn't that mean if I write a
        program on a handheld that utilizes double clicks I have to pay
        bucks to BG?  Can someone patent kissing too?
        \_ Search for patent number 6,368,227
        \_ OMG WTF BBQ
        \_ Oh God, keep the anti-patent shit at slashdot.  It's so done.  Why
           don't you post the obPatent on patenting bad patents, too?
2004/6/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan] UID:30799 Activity:insanely high
6/14    The Myth of Reaganomics
        http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=1544
        \_ http://www.nationalcenter.org/WCT010804.html
        \_ MISES!
           fuck that I use to think that was the bomb 5 years ago... then I
           realized how inefficient markets are, and there is nothing we can
           do to stop it perfect competitions DOES NOT WORK- it has been
           proven- its the whole line of research called Neo-Keynesian, led by
           some buy named Romer from Stanford (at least that is where he use
           to teach)
           \_ If we had perfected the market or government or anything else
              we'd be doing.  It isn't perfect but it is certainly proven to
              be more efficient than a heavy top-down command economy.
        \_ Hey, where'd the reply go that said this was from a right wing
           nutcase site?  If you had read the article you'd see it is quite
           the opposite.  Stop knee-jerking.  -!op
        \_ decent article; thank you -darin
        \_ I am no fan of Reagan, but I have a hard time accepting this article
           as credible.  For example, he oversimplifies the issue of dumping
           as something which is purely beneficial to the American consumer.
           I thought dumping referred to situations where foreign governments
           subsidized production costs and sold them below cost in order to
           put local firms out of business.  That definitely does not follow
           the spirit of free trade.  --jeffwong
           \_ Dumping also can be used to stabilize a local commodity.  For
              example, the EU dumps agricultural products globally to keep
              their food costs stable.
              \_ helo, this is another topic a little large for the motd but:
                 while dumping exists in theory ... the idea of killing off
                 a domestic industry to later apply monopoly pricing, but in
                 reality this is extrmely unlikely. first of all, if the
                 foreign country has multiple suppliers, they will compete
                 among themselves. it would be odd for either all of
                 them to collude to sell at the lower price ... if only one
                 them to collude to sell at the lower price. If only one
                 acts, then that firm is making all the losses in return for
                 only part of the mkt when the loss making eventually stops.
                 if a foreign country wants to subsidize you "forever"
                 If a foreign country wants to subsidize you "forever"
                 that might not be so bad. when the banner of dumping is
                 being waved it is almost certainly going to be an industry
                 group and their "captured" regulators and politicial and
                 not any kind of broad consumer group or academics. [you can
                 waved it is almost certainly going to be an industry
                 group and their "captured" regulators and politicians,
                 not any kind of broad consumer group nor academics. [you can
                 google for (mexican tomato florida dumping)]. also you cannot
                 naively look at prices. something like 75% of the trade vol
                 between the us and japan is between parts of the same firm,
                 so the transfer prices are not necessarily "true" prices.
                 while i dont ness buy the comment about EU price stability
                 [i think it is about income support for domestic political
                 reasons, not price stability, nor mercantilist market
                 conquest], but it is correct that another wrinkle has to
                 do with capacity management, so you cannot immediately assume
                 a price differential represents dumping [this is a somewhat
                 involved scenario [see e.g. Ethier, Wilfred: "dumping",
                 in J. Political Econ.] these comments are relvant to the
                 involved scenario, see e.g. Ethier, Wilfred: "Dumping",
                 in J. Pol. Econ.]. n.b. these comments are relvant to the
                 post ~1980 era, as the legal regime as well as poltical
                 realities have changed over time. ok tnx. --psb
                 \_ Hi Partha.  You should learn a useful English trick of
                    structuring your thoughts into paragraphs, rather than
                    throwing up all over the motd like kinney, punctuation
                    and readability be damned.  Thank you, come again!
                    \_ Wow.  Partha and Kinney in the same thought.  Never
                       thought I'd see the day.
                    \_ excluding "helo ... ok tnx --psb" there are 278 words
                       in that posting. this is to convey something that
                       would take about 1.5 pages and a graph and 2 footnotes
                       to do "uncompressed" ... so yes, it might be a little
                       lossy. --psb
                       \_ It's 'lossy' because it's poorly written, not because
                          it's compressed.  Write better, don't look like a
                          dumbass.
                          \_if i am willing to spend t time on something that
                            t is partitioned between content and form. i am
                            sorry you disagree with my tradeoff. if you want
                            to edit it and send me a note, i'll consider
                            pasting that in. sometimes i'm willing to write
                            something up nicely and put it in ~psb/MOTD
                            and sometimes currente calamo is the best i can
                            do. if you have some particular interest in this
                            and want a clarification, you are welcome to
                            send me a mail. --psb
                            \_ your lack of form dimishes the quality of the
                               content by making it unreadable.  free flow
                               thought is available by trying to talk with
                               any of the fucked up homeless people babbling
                               on the streets.
                               \_ hey partha's response was pretty good
                                  considering the average quality level of
                                  content on the motd.  The gist of it makes
                                  sense.  Do you think he's going to waste
                                  time carefully editing his reply to please you?
                                        -jeffwong
                                  \_ He should waste his time carefully editing
                                     his reply to please me, though. -- ilyas
                                  \_ It was ok, but really, if you're going to
                                     bother writing that much, why not stick in
                                     a few commas and maybe a period here and
                                     there?  If the point is to make a point,
                                     then grammar, spelling, and punctuation
                                     count.  If the point is to just fluff his
                                     ego then it doesn't matter if anyone else
                                     can read it.
                 \_can anayone name a single successful dumping case
                   where the person complaining wins in court rather than
                   just pressuring the govts to compromise if not out and
                   out losing in court? --psb
                   \_ Didn't the various asian memory makers get smashed a
                      few years ago?
           \_ These guys are a libertarian think tank, so they don't really
              believe in regulating markets much. I don't really agree
              with that part, but I thought that whole thing was well
              researched, well thought out and reasonably accurate. -op
2004/6/14-15 [Reference/Religion] UID:30800 Activity:high
6/14    If the Bible wasn't a religious text followed by a billion or so
        people do you think it would still be printed and read by anyone
        today?  As a work of fiction, story telling quality, etc, would anyone
        buy it?
        \_ They'd buy the stuff left on the scribe room floor that the council
           of Nicea left out.
        \_ How could it not be "a religious text"?  It's the word of God.
           \_ Why not?  I've read plenty of Greek mythology without slaying
              any goats or tossing virgins off cliffs into the roaring ocean.
              It's only the word of God if you take it as a religious text. -op
              \_ Sorry folks, I'll troll harder next time.
                 \_ Oh, sorry.  I didn't realise you were trolling.  Next time
                    if you'll let me know in advance I'll get all hot n
                    bothered for you.
        \_ it needs a good editor, but the story telling is top notch.
        \_ Since similar mythology from that era is still read, yes.  -tom
        \_ What tom said, but it would obviously be read less often and
           by fewer people.
        \_ You mean if it hadn't existed and someone wrote up the whole shebang
           today as a fantasy? I think the sheer quantity of stuff in there
           would create a buzz at least, but as literature it's pretty lacking
           in terms of fleshing out the characters. Some old testament stuff
           could be re-written to make a dramatic story, leaving out the
           tedious rules and lists and other dull parts. But such a creation
           wouldn't be the Bible as it is. It's not very inviting reading,
           what with the constant preaching and punishment. The meat of the
           Jesus stuff is pretty short and not overly exciting. A lot of the
           new testament is the dry "letters to whoever" and then the bizarre
           Revelation stuff. There are a some literature-worthy themes
           in there but mostly the writing itself is dull.
           \_ Job, Ecclesiastes, Exodus are all pretty good stories.
           \_ The Bible is not about characters, but archetypes.  I think it's
              very good for what it is -- archetypal literature.  Kind of like
              Shakespeare, actually. -- ilyas
        \_ Some chapters would make great novellas on their own (and have,
           actually, when recast with different characters).  Some of it
           would only ever get read in Classics classes.  Cf. the Greek
           Theogeny vs. the Iliad.
           \_the random greek myths are read as stories but something like
             the iliad is obviously a deep work of literature now more than
             a story. the kjv bible is certainly considered a work of
             literature and i suppose parts of it could be a good story.
             the book of job certainly is raises interesting
             questions outside a narrow xtain context, there is plenty
             of poetry. i think the english depts at berkeley/'fraud/harvard
             /michigan/UVa/yale will all of "bible as literature" classes.
             you may want to see the somewhat recent book "good's secretaries"
             you may want to see the somewhat recent book "god's secretaries"
             on the KJV and other english bibles. the book of mormon on the
             other hand ... --psb
             \_ A hackneyed concept borrowed from Dr. Dee and transplanted to
                America.  A much better basis for religion is anything by
                William Blake.  More fun to read, too.
2004/6/14 [Recreation/Travel/LasVegas] UID:30801 Activity:nil
6/14    I just saw a show on TV about cheating in Vegas.  Not only is it
        against the law, but they interviewed a guy who got "life without
        parole"!!!!! for cheating casinos.  So all of you smart asses who
        think you're going to do some MIT style vegas cheating and can only
        get kicked out of the casino to simply move to the next one down the
        street, fuhgettaboutit!  Bring KY.
        \_ Counting cards is not cheating.  Counting cards in a team also
           is not cheating.  Note that casinos have banned various members
           of the MIT teams, but they have not been arrested.
           \_ That's nice.  Let us know when your trial is over.  We'll send
              flowers and lube.
           \_ Vegas is very pro-business. Vegas court/police/firemen are
              very sympathetic to big corporations that give contributions.
              Wait, America is like that already.
2004/6/14-15 [Politics/Domestic/President/Clinton] UID:30802 Activity:high
6/14    Here's the VRWCer Drudge reporting more of his pro-Bushco anti-Clinton
        lies!  I'm sure that none of this is true... hehehe, right wing
        controlled media, hehehehe, yeah right.
        http://www.drudgereport.com/bc1.htm
        \_ CBS is right leaning if anything.  This is about the revenue.
           Not the politics.
           \_ CBS would be considered right-leaning in France.  Maybe. -- ilyas
              \_ ilyas is talking about Abu Ghraib photos, experts who dispute
                 aluminum tubes, and Bill Clinton book press.  The previous
                 poster is talking about CBS's older demographic and
                 patriotism advertising.  Everyone's right! :D
           \_ How exactly does CBS get revenue by *forcing* all of it's
              affiliates to carry an hour long Bill Clinton commercial for
              *free*?  Hey, it isn't 1998 anymore!  You don't make money by
              giving your shit away for free.
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:June:14 Monday <Sunday, Tuesday>