Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:May:11 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/5/11 [Computer/SW/OS/Solaris] UID:30146 Activity:very high
5/10    I have years of experience with Solaris, but someone is asking if i've
        used "Solaris availability enhancements".  What the heck are they
                        \- these used to be known as Solaris Implants.
        talking about?  tnx,
        \_ Means that the person you are talking to has never used Solaris.
           There's no such thing as "Solaris availability enhancements" unless
           person is talking about required patch clusters and server lockdown
           procedures plus potentially fallover switching to "enhance" uptime
           of said server. But I've never met anyone inside or outside sun
           or on sunmanagers that has ever referred to anything of that sort.
        \_ Sun Clustering/HA stuff was very big not long ago.  Haven't heard
           much out of them of late because they've been pretty much priced
           out by other HA options.  The way it's phrased does indicate pointy-
           hairedness, though.
        \_ time to hit the google sonny
        \_ Probably things like Sun Cluster and/or Veritas Cluster, Veritas or
           Solaris LVM, etc.
        \_ Note how most of the replies are in the form of "the idiot who
           asked you probably is asking about X,Y,Z".  There is no such thing.
           This is some marketing person, pseudo-technical manager, or worse,
           a marketing manager who once managed to turn on their own PC, right?

[restored, but maybe not completely intact]
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia, Health/Eyes] UID:30147 Activity:insanely high 50%like:12375
5/10    Work safe.  Humiliation cartoon.
        \_ While not denying your cartoon has a point, I'm shocked by the
           apologists coming out of the woodwork talking about a double
           standard, that "the terrorists" can use torture but we can't,
           boo hoo hoo.  Of course there's a double standard!  We're Americans;
           we know better than that, we are better than that.  We're the most
           powerful nation on earth, we're singlehandedly defining right and
           wrong militarily, and the Limbaughs and O'Reillys of the world
           are saying that our troops were just having a good time, that it was
           ok to beat and humiliate helpless prisoners.  THAT's disgusting.
           \_ Some useful questions to think about:
              (a) Is torture ever justified (another phrasing: are you a
                  \- you are clouding the issue by introducing utilitarianism.
                     \_ Like the mighty squid.  A true utilitarian should have
                        the balls to look at torture and shrug. -- ilyas
                        \_ A true utilitarian would want to see the cost-
                           benefit analysis before signing off on torture.
                           \-utils dont ness distinguish between the source
                             or distribution of the benefits. like "i enjoy
                             torture" vs "to save the children" --psb
                           Past experience (South and Central America)
                           suggests that torture has a very limited benefit
                           and serious longterm fallout.  Don't confuse
                           utilitarianism with sociopathy.
                           \_ It depends on who you torture, why, how, and who
                              would care and how much if it got out.
                        \-yes but a ultilitarian would not necessarily
                          require it be for some important national purpose.
                             interesting litmus test for would be utilitarians
                          say sufficiently high TV ratings would do it in
                          some conceptions of utilitarianism. --psb
                          \_ holy shit!  that is brilliant!  thank you!  you
                             have given me the next great reality tv idea.  i
                             can't thank you enough!  this is why you have a
                             motd fan base.
                             \- "Torture TV" is a standard hypothetical that
                                comes up in critiques of util. In fact one of
                                the other "standard hypos" involves torture
                                of a spy in wartime. Also relevant to this
                                is the notion of norm setting [see rule util,
                                and the questions, should you chop up a sick
                                person in a hospital to save 5 people with
                                transplanted parts]. But even defenders of
                                util in the war torture example would ack
                                you have to be sure you have the right guy
                                and that he has somethinof a spy in wartime. Als
o relevant to this
                                is the notion of norm setting [see rule util,
                                and the questions, should you chop up a sick
                                person in a hospital to save 5 people with
                                transplanted parts]. But even defenders of
                                util in the war torture example would ack
                                you have to be sure you have the right guy
                                and that he has something to say. You may
                                wish to read B. Williams [ucb, dead], or
                                Taking Rights Seriously. --psb
                                \_ Ok, so I haven't read anything on util.
                                   philosophy.  It's still great and needs to
                                   be done!  The People Demand Entertainment!
                                   I think it'll be something like you get more
                                   money the more torture you choose to suffer
                                   but if you break you lose all the money you
                                   earned to that point.  That's good for about
                                   3 seasons before it gets a little stale and
                                   needs to get spiced up a bit.
                          \_ I find the 'conventional' conception of
                             utilitarianism hard to stomach as is.  I am just
                             pointing out the current situation as an
                             interesting litmus test for would-be utilitarians
                             here on the motd.  What if there were no
                             pictures, and the mental torture was done
                             professionally?  Would it be ok then?  I have
                             some difficulty saying 'yes.' -- ilyas
                             \- issue now clouded.
                             \_ I'm not a utility, but torture is justified if
                                a guy clearly knows some stuff on which lives
                                depend and doesn't talk. That leaves a lot of
                                   you something important.
                                room for abuse though since they don't really
                                know who might know anything. So I'm not happy
                                with a generic "torture everybody just in case"
                                setup. I don't imagine that would be be of
                                much utility anyway.
                                \_ Nonononono, you don't torture them "just in
                                   case.  You torture them primarily _because_
                                   it is fun and also because they might tell
                     in other news, i heard J. BENTHAM's head fell off. --psb
                     \- Auto-Correction: Head was procured in a scrum.--psb
                     \_ is it strictly a utilitarianism question?  is
                        withholding medication a prisoner needs torture?
                        is withholding drugs?  is withholding illegal drugs
                        ok if you're a doctor and you're trying to wean someone
                        off drugs?  is withholding also ok if you're a drug
                        lord teaching someone a lesson?  how about if you're
                        trying to convert the prisoner from some other cause?
                        would it matter if the "other cause" is islam or
                        some cult with a messiah figure, 7 wifes, and 20
                        children living in a shack in texas?
              (b) Is physical torture 'worse' than psychological torture?
                  \_ Some is, some isn't.  There's a whole lot of ways to
                     permanently fuck up someone's head while barely touching
                     \_ There are four lights!
              (c) Is the defining moral characteristic of an act the _effect_
                  or the _attitude_? -- ilyas
              \_ Hi, thanks for coming forward.  We knew you enjoyed it.
                 \_ I have no unsigned posts on the motd at the moment.
                    I don't even remember the last time I started a non-CS
                    thread.  Thanks for playing.  -- ilyas
                    \_ Whoever is trying to argue with Ilya, don't bother.
                       Its like arguing with concrete, and about as
                       \_ actually, I like to see ilyas post.  he's almost
                          elevated himself to Fan #1 status.
                       \_ Well, you either take my word for it, or think I am
                          a liar.  I don't mind either outcome, really.
                            -- ilyas
                    \_ it looks like you missed a joke of some sort there
           \_ Has O'Reilly actually condoned or excused the bahavior?  Or is
              this just another dig at conservatives in general?  (I *have*
              seen Rush's comments BTW, but no reference to O'Reilly). -emarkp
              \_ I haven't seen/heard O'Reilly say anything like calling it
                 fraternity hazing but it is convenient for some people to just
                 lump all the opposition together and pin all of them with what
                 one of them said.
        \_ If you've never seen an Imperialist cartoon, this is one!
2004/5/11 [Recreation/Food] UID:30148 Activity:very high
5/10    I am interesting in having dinner with my operative from Palo Alto.
        Any recommendations for "neutral ground" between SF and PA? ok tnx.
        \_ I'll give you a recommendation if yout tell me what an operative is.
           \_ it's a pretentious way of saying "friend."  -tom
              \_ no, he's a spy for the kgb.
        \_ price/cuisine?
        \_ basque cultural center.
           \- oh that is a good idea. i wanted to try that. however, any
              recs a little farther south?. tnx.
              \_ prince of wales.  juban.  spiedo.
        \_ what? operative? neutral ground? what are you, RUSSIAN???
           \_ It's a bondage MI thing.  He is planning an American
              conservative "hazing" ritual and his operative will administer
              deep multiple penetration to him.
2004/5/11 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:30149 Activity:nil Edit_by:auto Entry has been invalidated. Access denied.
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:30150 Activity:very high
5/10    Why do Republicans only support sodomy when it is nonconsensual?
        \_ NO COOKIE!  Play Again(Y/n)? ___
           \_ This sounds like a troll except it is true - it's hard to find
              a popular conservative who is not defending the tortures.  (Yes,
        \_ Those who do are partisan hacks with no core.  Your link appears to
           be down, BTW.
              it is torture.  Whenever we accuse other countries of doing it we
              always call it torture instead of abuse, hazing, or emotional
              release.  And no, they didn't cut off anything.  On the other
              hand, our arab and muslim allies have been cutting parts of
              prisoner and our goverment has been very supportive.  Amputation
              is a tradtional punishment in Arab and Muslim countries and it
              is not usually used for interrogation, with which torture is
              usually but nonexlusively associated.)
        \_ There's no sin in it if you don't enjoy it.
           \_ Bend over and think of Iraq!
        \_ Those who do are partisan hacks with no core.
        \_ How did you infer this from the article you mentioned?  If you want
           to help pick on Republicans, at least use a better example.
           \_ Inhofe is one of the most outspoken anti-gay activists in
              Congress. I assumed that readers would know that.
        \_ 'Inhofe, who visited Iraq in March, is described on his senatorial
            Web site as a leading conservative voice in the Senate,
            advocating "common sense Oklahoma values including less
            government, less regulation, lower taxes, fiscal responsibility
            and a strong national defense."'
           He's not a Repub, he's a Libertarian.
           \_ never mind the fact that "less government, lower taxes" are
              directly opposed to "strong national defense."  -tom
              \_ bzzzt!  Libertarians are in favor of a strong nation defense.
                 They understand, unlike most leftists, that without a strong
                 military, the long term survival odds for your country are
                 exactly zero.
           \_ No facts!  Anyone not with us is against us!  --JFK
              \_ "If you are not with us you are with the terrorists." -GWB
                 When did JFK say that? Oh, that's right, he didn't.
          \_ He is registered and elected as a republican.  He is a republican
        \_ Hey, let's take it easy on "our heroes." They probably don't have
           Skinamax or the Playboy channel, so they are forced to get the
           murderous, terrorist insurgents to act out Oklahoman heterosexual
           fantasies lest the cornfed troops get urges to lather each other
           up in the showers and betray the American God's Laws by thinking
           homoerotic thoughts. Hmm. Let's whip the savages some more Sarge!
           \_ Sweet!  That was so off topic and unrelated to anything in the
              real world yet managed to stereotype and disparage so many
              millions of people you've never met that you really should get
              sort of motd award.  Maybe for Most Racist, Frothing, Thought He
              Was Clever, But Is Really A Drooler Reinforced By Other Motd
              Droolers post of the hour?
              \_ I rool!
2004/5/11-12 [Computer/SW/Compilers, Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:30151 Activity:low
5/10    On a 32 bit architecture, if I declare something boolean or byte,
        does it still use 32 bits, or is it possible to have a different
        offset for the alignment to pack it more efficiently? ok thx.
        \_ For boolean, it's all up to your compiler.  For byte, most likely
           it's 8 bits, but it's still up to your compiler.
           \_ I heard that if the alignment isn't 32, either the arch
              would raise an off-alignment exception, or that there is
              a tremendous run-time penalty for the memory access. Is
              this true, and which architectures would this apply to?
              \_ memory alignment has nothing to do with this, since
                 you're presumably not trying to load a 32 bit word
                 from an arbitrary offset. if bool is implemented as
                 a char, then typically it's 8 bits and alignment
                 doesn't matter. x86 allows loading words from arbitrary
                 offsets, but there can be a significant performance hit,
                 whereas many mips style chips just do not allow it.
                 \_ To clarify this: the 32-bit alignment the previous poster
                    was worried about is only for 32-bit data values.  If you
                    have an 8-bit piece of data, it only needs 8-bit alignment.
              \_ The OpenBSD guys were saying that Sparc64 was their
                 preferred dev/testing arch b/c it has strict memory
                 alignment requirements; i386 less so.
              \_ On i386 or above, if you use 32-bits and it's not 32-bit
                 aligned, there is a performance penalty but no exception.
                 If you use 8 bits, I think for some instructions there is a
                 performance penalty just from using 8 bits instead of 32 bits
                 (excpet on the SX-variant processors.)  However, I think there
                 is no additional performance penalty if the 8-bit datum is not
                 32-bit aligned.
        \_ Do you mean 'bool' and 'char' in C++?  Or some other language?
2004/5/11 [Uncategorized] UID:30152 Activity:nil
5/10    Everyday here is death to politics day.  Don't bother.  Mehlhaff and
        kchang aren't the only archive sources.  restored as usual.
2004/5/11 [Computer/SW/Mail] UID:30153 Activity:insanely high
5/10    You arrive at work.
        There is a mailbox here.
        > run outlook
        You have contracted an Outlook Virus.
        Your Inbox is full of emails from your friends wondering why you
        are sending them huge attachments.
        > claw out the eyes of your IT department who forced you to use Outlook\
        I don't understand 'claw.'
        You are in danger of being eaten by a grue.
        > go north?
        You are at the copy machine.
        There is some IT dork here photocopying invites to his Ren Faire
        The IT dork drools on you.
        > talk to dork
        His name is Tom Holub, a total l0zer. You ignore him.
        Tom says: "Do you really think I'd be a Ren Faire type?"
        Tom gives you a twink point.
        > kill tom
        You slash him with your blessed antique samurai sword.
        You wish that you would stop bleeding!
        You wish that you would stop bleeding!
        Tom is here.
        > strip pants
        The Tom appears confused.
        > take xerox paper
        You are now burdened.
        Tom gives you a twink point.
        > give xerox paper to tom
        Tom does not want the Xerox paper.
        A PHB has entered the room.
        > bend tom over
        What do you want to bend Tom over?
        The PHB asks "Where are your pants!?"
        > strip tom's pants
        Tom goes away to complain on the motd.
        The PHB seems agitated.
        > apply ky on tom
        Tom is not here!
        > bend phb over
        Not while burdened!
        The PHB recites the University's sexual harassment policy.
        The PHB has exited to the east.
        > go east
      It is pitch dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
              \_ hey this isn't an iraqi torture thread
        \_ uh, do you really think I'd be a Ren Faire type?  -tom
        > kill tom
        You slash him with your blessed antique samurai sword.
        You wish that you would stop bleeding!
        You wish that you would stop bleeding!
        Tom is here.
        >strip pants
        \_ What is PHB anyway?
           \_ 'Pointy-Haired Boss'.  Used to refer to a clueless middle
              management type.  From the Dilbert character of the same name.
        > search
        I don't understand that.
        > search room
        You find a box of Fruity Crack.
        > take box
        You have a box of Fruity Crack.
        It is pitch dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
        > go north
        You are in the Ladies' Restroom.
        There is a Hot Receptionist here.
        The PHB is here.
        > drop xerox paper
        You are no longer burdened.
        > grab receptionist's chest from behind
        The Hot Receptionist screams.
        The Hot Receptionist slaps you.
        The PHB recites the University's sexual harassment policy.
        The PHB has exited to the south.
        > quit
        Your score is 0 [total of 585 points], in 19 moves.
        This gives you the rank of Beginner.
      \_ does anyone really find this amusing?
           \_ yes
         \_ yes, my coworkers are looking at me funny
      \_ To the Source, motders!
      \_ Can we upgrade to a more erotic version of the game?
        SodaZork 1.1 beta
        > run outlook
        There is a sexy mailbox here.
        > open mailbox
        The mailbox contains:
        A porno magazine
        > take viagra
        > w
        It is pitch dark. You are likely to be sodomized by a grue.
        > eat viagra
        As soon as you swallow the Viagra, you notice the package says
        "sugper viagrga".
        Nothing happens.
        Two hot chicks have entered the room.
        > look chicks
        The hot chicks smile seductively at you.
        It is romantically dim.  You are likely to be sodomized by a grue.
        > set porno magazine on fire
        You have no means of ignition.
        The hot chicks make pouty faces at you.
        \_ ok, as i recall, in the real zork you only got two warnings about
           darkness before being eaten(sodomized) by a grue.  At this point,
           the player should be dead, having failed to generate light with the
           burning pornos.
        > lay hands on chicks' waists
        You have been sodomized by a Grue.
        Your score is 0 [total of 585 points], in 38 moves.
2004/5/11-7/10 [Transportation/Car] UID:30154 Activity:moderate 57%like:30165 66%like:29838
7/9     /var is full.  help
        \_ lately when /var fills it's usually a spamassassin process out
           of control, not someone leaving files around.
        \_ In /var/tmp:
        -rw-------   1 fchan     wheel   1010293 Oct 21  2002 img-PAR087084
        -rwx------   1 brianm    wheel   1308404 Sep  7  2003 DSC01095.JPG*
        -rw-r--r--   1 coganman  wheel  24274863 Jun 13  2003 coganman.tar.bz2
        -rw-------   1 nevman    wheel  35657877 May 11 13:09 nevman.devnull
        \_ /var/tmp takes 55M.
2004/5/11 [Computer/Domains] UID:30155 Activity:high
5/11    FYI: Everyone knows about csuamotd/csuamotd for websites; some however
        require e-mail addresses.  There's nothing much to do about the ones
        that mail a confirmation key (I don't want even more spam going to
        lwall or whatnot), but the ones that don't use the email for anything
        important, I register as
        So if you hit a site that uses an email as username only, try that and
        if it doesn't work register that (I know I've done this for SJ Mercury
        among others)     --csuamotd
        \_ What ever happened to cypherpunk/cypherpunk?
        \_ I've registered at SJ Mercury with /
2004/5/11 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:30156 Activity:high
5/10    partha, stop breaking up my posts in the middle, wait till the
                                                 \_ And use '\_' not '\-' luser
        paragraph is over then post something ok? Stop being such a major
                                                \- sorry about that. ok thx.
        *ucking rude prick.
        \_ hey, asshole. if you delete my anti censorship post about fucktards
           who write "*uck" instead of "fuck" one more time, you will have
           started a fucking nuclear war.  fucker.
        \_ hey, asshole. if you delete my anti censorship post about *ucktards
           who write "*uck" instead of "*uck" one more time, you will have
           started a *ucking nuclear war.  *ucker.
           \_ *uck off!! hahahahahahahhahaha
              \_ f*ck you too!
2004/5/11 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:30157 Activity:high
5/10    Can I create arbitrary blocks of code in C without control structures?
        I really just want something I can "break" out of.
          rc = SomeLibraryCall();
          if (rc < 0) break; // breaks to release lock
          rc = SecondLibraryCall();
          if (rc < 0) break;
        return rc;
        Furthermore, is this advisable, or is there a better way to do it?
        \_ Yes, you can create arbitrary blocks.  No, you can't break out of
           them; "break" is allowed only within loop and switch blocks.  Use a
           goto if you must, or maybe even a do { ... } while(0) if you feel
           strongly against gotos.  In your example though, I'd just use
           if/else. --jameslin
        \_ As jameslin said, but here's the solution:
        int SomeFunction(void)
            int rc = SomeLibraryCall();

            if (rc >= 0)
                rc = SecondLibraryCall();
                if (rc >= 0)

            return rc;
        \_ Thanks both, but the problem is that it's not just SecondLibraryCall,
           it's NinthLibraryCall and it's getting ugly.  I think I'll use a
           goto ERROR sort of setup in the future.
           \_ How's this:
        int SomeFunction(void)

            while (1)
                int rc = LibraryCall1();
                if (rc < 0) break;
                rc = LibraryCall2();
                if (rc < 0) break;

            return rc;
        \_ I'd rather not use a loop, even a fake one, because it implies
           ... well, a loop.  Same with the do / while above.  I guess I'm
           looking for a try { ... } block, but it's gotta be C.
           \_ what's wrong with implying a loop? Use the tools the language
              gives you. If you're so concerned use "for (i=0;i==0;i++)".
           \_ Totally correct.  How's this:
        int SomeFunction(void)

            int rc;
            if (   (rc = LibraryCall1()) >= 0
                && (rc = LibraryCall2()) >= 0
                && (rc = LibraryCall3()) >= 0

            return rc;
        \_ guys guys guy, you realize that gotos are allowed in C right?
           \_ ob GotoConsideredHarmful
              \_ This is where goto is the best solution.
2004/5/11 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:30158 Activity:nil
5/11    /var is full
-rw-rw----  1 georgy         mail    28638578 May 11 10:56 georgy
-rw-rw----  1 njh            mail    23594891 May 11 11:08 njh
-rw-------  1 vlin           mail    20938590 May 11 09:54 vlin
-rw-------  1 danberry       mail    20881048 May 11 12:10 danberry
-rw-------  1 ericwo         mail    20872793 May 11 08:01 ericwo
-rw-------  1 milesm         mail    20487765 May 11 12:35 milesm
-rw-------  1 philb          mail    20225961 May 11 12:38 philb
-rw-r--r--  1 nivra          csua    19247689 Mar 12 12:29 nivra
-rw-rw----  1 shieh          mail    18759181 May 11 12:29 shieh
-rw-rw----  1 marc           mail    18391040 May 11 11:31 marc
-rw-rw----  1 alanc          mail    18370337 May 11 11:05 alanc
-rw-------  1 conrad         mail    18259689 May 11 11:49 conrad
-rw-------  1 dizzy          mail    18153447 May 11 12:34 dizzy
-rw-rw----  1 pad            mail    18120443 May 11 12:31 pad
-rw-------  1 davecw         mail    17915799 May 11 11:49 davecw
-rw-------  1 mh             mail    17686229 May 11 12:38 mh
-rw-rw----  1 deschan        mail    17571738 May 11 11:42 deschan
-rw-rw----  1 katster        mail    17276620 May 11 12:34 katster
-rw-------  1 edmund         mail    17260314 May 11 12:26 edmund
-rw-------  1 phoy           mail    17235821 May 11 11:13 phoy
-rw-------  1 ccheng         csua    17120934 May 11 12:04 ccheng
-rw-rw----  1 muchandr       mail    17104892 Jul 15  2003 muchandr
-rw-rw----  1 adam           mail    17063887 May 11 12:36 adam
-rw-------  1 jenwong        mail    17063722 May 11 12:22 jenwong
-rw-------  1 blojo          mail    17044386 May 11 11:43 blojo
-rw-------  1 minhn          mail    17022525 May 11 11:51 minhn
-rw-------  1 duyphun        mail    17006566 May 11 12:39 duyphun
-rw-rw----  1 klee           mail    16984332 May 11 11:58 klee
-rw-------  1 karthik        csua    16949183 May 11 12:36 karthik
-rw-------  1 agee           csua    16948803 May 11 12:10 agee
        \_ How do these happen when everyone has only a 15MB quota on
           \_ Some people are 'special' and get to take the short bus.
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:30159 Activity:nil
5/11    Kerry ahead by a point in CA.
        I hope the Iraq prisoner abuse bounce kicks in soon!
        \_ ""?
           Try the LA Times:
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30160 Activity:nil
5/11    New yorker article on Abu Ghraib:
2004/5/11 [Uncategorized] UID:30161 Activity:high
5/11    Partha, I like Bengalis, they seem to be quite educated and clean
        and have manners. But I have a lot of problems with Southern Indians.
        We have a bunch of Southernersss and they're 1) loud 2) smell badly
        3) they seem very righteous and insist they're always right and that
        you're wrong 4) they tend to be quite rude and interrupt me when I
        speak and seem to have very little manners. Is this common among
        Southerners and why?
        \_ Partha is a southy.
           \- Your brain has been classified as: small.
        \- Bengalis have the reputation as the Righteous/Arguing Kings.
           Southerners are often quiet and polite. As for the rest, maybe it
           is the Coconut oil, or your small sample size. --psb
           \_ This is consistent with my limited experience. The most polite
              member of my lab in Seattle was from Hyderabad, for example. I
              don't know if Hyderabad is considered "South", though he refered
              to it as such. -- ulysses
        \_ I don't know, but I think Tamil tigresses are the most beautiful,
           not like ugly northern Indian girls.
2004/5/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30162 Activity:very high
5/11    Captured on video:  Iraqi insurgents shown slitting throat and removing
        head of American contractor from Philadelphia using a large knife.
        (Yes, this is just after he names the members of his family and his
        hometown to the camera.)  Nick Berg's body found on Saturday in
        Baghdad.  It's all over the news now.
        \_ These people hate freedom.
        ---From Here---
        \_ Bring 'em on! --Bush
        \_ Ahh, they're just blowing off some steam. --Rush Limbaugh
        \_ I'm more outraged by the outrage. --Senator Inhofe
        \_ Ugh!  this is turning ugliyer and ugliger.
        \_ How long must the shit continue to hit the fan?
            \_ not really, turn off the Political correctness and Iraq war
                will be over in a drop of a bomb
                \_ What an intelligent solution!
        ---To Here---
           \_ To the above: you think this is some fucking joke?  Or it's just
              another way to take a shot at Bush for the fall election?  Wake
              the fuck up, you jerkoffs.  It was beyond the pale.  After that
              shit, I no longer give a flying fuck what happens to any Iraqi.
              I *did* care what happened somewhat after the 4 guys getting
              shot, burned, dragged through the streets and hung from a
              bridge.  I *did* kind of care about the prison abuse.  I no
              longer care.  They can turn it all to glass or use it as a huge
              target pracitce range now and I won't care about it anymore.
              These people don't deserve freedom, life, or anything else but
              a painful gruelling death.  This has gone beyond the political
              and you three are too stupid and self absorbed to see it.
                  \- the people claiming it is "some fucking joke"
                    are animals like rush limbaugh. and those kinds of
                    comments and reactions is what is in part nodoubt fueling
                    this wave of reliation of al queda recruitment. let's
                    ask howard dean again "has intervetion in iraq made
                    your more of less safe?" --psb
                    \_ Al Qaeda listens to Rush and got pissed off so they cut
        \_ "Berg's mother said the family had not seen the tape and were still
           trying to decide whether to view it. They had been having trouble
           accessing it because of a slow computer connection.  'I don't know
           if I want to see it. It's just so awful,' Suzanne Berg said."
                       of this guy's head on video for his family to see and
                       thus this is all Rush Limbaugh's fault because he made
                       them do it?
              \_ Well honestly I felt kind of down about that for a little
                 while but now I'm over it because you know, if you weren't
                 so fucking naive you'd understand that such episodes are
                 basically to be expected. I don't plan to watch that video.
                 It's from an al qaeda guy right? Not some joe blow Iraqi.
                 All the shit going on over there including the thousands
                 of innocent Iraqi bombing deaths and the Falluja stuff
                 are the semi-predictable postwar fallout so if you supported
                 the war you have to just grin and bear it, so to speak.
                 These guys trying to make money over there knowingly risk
                 their lives. The above comments are more a bitter I told
                 you so than comedy.
              \_ So, since Bush and his administration have claimed to be
                 commited to bringing democracy, freedom and economic
                 prosperity to Iraq, do you think that they are lying, or
                 are you forced to no longer support them?
                 \_ Price of tea in China?
              \_ You're right, this is far too awful to imagine.  But you're
                 mistaking their bitter tone for sheer jocularity- the point
                 you're missing is that responsibility for this goes back
                 further in time, and higher up the chain of responsibility,
                 than Abu Ghraib.  The dogs who did this to Nick Berg are
                 one more symptom of a COLOSSAL miscalculation.
                 \_ So Bush *made* them cut off his head and send a video?
              \_ The appropriate response is to get the people who did it.
                 Unfortunately, they're all masked in the video.
              \_ Using your argument, someone should nuke the US also. I am
                 sure our government has done similar things in the past.
                 \_ Using your argument all humans should be killed.
              \_ Using Bush's words, "Those few individuals do not
                 represent the ....." Need I say more?
                 \_ Yes, you need to.
              \_ Your nationalism is obsolete and boorish.
                 \_ And here we have a Citizen Of The World(c) adding his two
              \_ We warned you not to let the US get involved in this
                 pointless and illegal war. As for the self absorbed
                 crack, you are the worst of the bunch. -antiwar protestor
                        \_ Like the pacifists in the 1930's you still
                           refuse to recognize evil.  Militant Islam has
                           declared war on the West.  There is no middle
                           ground - they wan't to kill or convert ALL of
                           us.  Berg's decapitation was not a isolated
                           incident by fringe radicals; it is precisely how
                           Islam has been spread since its inception.  If
                           the war is not fought now it will be fought on
                           the streets of America.
                 \_ In what way am I self absorbed?  I'm not the one here
                    getting amusement or seeking political gain from this
                    man's brutal murder.  It isn't too late to restore Hussein
                    to power.  Do you think we should do that?  If we could go
                    back in time, is that the right answer?
                    \_ The right answer is to not go around sticking your nose
                       into everyone else's business, especially when it is
                       not invited and not welcome. This is a totally
                       predictable outcome of warfare: I bet stuff like this
                       happens in every war. Your self absorption is your
                       "nuke them  all, let God sort it out" philosophy.
                       Rather than bother yourself with trying to punish
                       the guilty and assist the innocent, you wish to take
                       the easy way out and proclaim all evil. Btw, politics
                       is sort of the opposite of "self absorption," almost
                       by defintion, unless you are a politician, perhaps.
              \_ I understand your anger.  It is right to feel angry when
                 human beings do this kind of thing to other human beings.
                 It's right to want to punish the ones who did this. It's
                 also important that we don't take out our frustration and
                 outrage on people who had nothing to do with this. Repeat
                 after me:  the murder of human beings, no matter how
                 outrageous, does not excuse further barbarism.
        \_ Time to turn sand into glass.
        \_ Ugh!  this is turning uglier and ugliger.
                   /f=r/~_-~ _-_ --_.^-~--\=b\
                 4fF / */  .o  ._-__.__/~-. \*R\
                /fF./  . /- /'~` -  \_  * *\ *\R\
               (iC.I+ '| - *- -@  )\  \  )  ) )|RB
               (I| (  [  / \-__ .   ) )  /_/ | *)B
               (I(. \ `` \   \_-/~~/__/ )_ .-~ F/
                \b\\=_.\_b`-+-~x-_/ .. ,._/ , F/
                 ~\_\= =  =-*###%#x==-#  *=- =/
                    ~\**U/~  | i i | ~~~\===~
                            | I I \\
                           / // I\ \\
                      (   [ (( WU) )))  )
                             || * |
                             | *  *\
                            /* /I\ *~~\
                          /~-/*  / \ \ ~~M~\
                ____----=~ // /WVW\* \|\ ***===--___
                PLEASE STOP NUKING MY NUKULAR EXPLOSION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
           \_ fyi, has a download available
        \_ Berg's purpose for visit is unknown.  He has been arrested by
           FBI before.  His story might be more complicated than just simple
           hostage taking.
           \_ His purpose in Iraq is clear from his parents' description.
              He was a war supporter who helped set up electronics equipment
              at the Republican National Convention in Philly in 2000.
              He was trying to get more work rebuilding radio towers.
              He was arrested by Iraqi police and detained by coalition
              authorities.  They talked to the FBI, and the FBI talked to his
              parents.  Which web sites have you been reading?
           \_ Yeah, that's it, blame the victim.
2004/5/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30163 Activity:nil
5/11    Why THIS Iraqi doesn't give a crap about the Iraqi jail torture.
        (the second blog entry from the top of the page)
        \_ Healing Iraq has always been very pro-Invasion, pro-US.  Since this
           runs counter to the vast majority of the populace there now, I've
           always wondered exactly who or what he is.
           \_ Could be it's as he claims, an Iraqi dentist.  ie
        \_ Cf. with the entry titled "Abu Ghraib."
2004/5/11-12 [Computer/SW/Apps] UID:30164 Activity:kinda low
5/11    I hate Acrobat 6 -- the search function is overly cumbersome.  Any way
        to simply search "from this page"?
        \_ install Acrobat Reader 5
           \_ seconded. Reader gets worse every version.
           \_ Not terribly useful if the .pdf is created for ver. 6.
2004/5/11 [Transportation/Car] UID:30165 Activity:nil 57%like:30154
5/11    /var is full
        [directory listing deleted]
        \_ /var/mail is a separate partition.
        \_ How do these happen when everyone has only a 15MB quota on
           \_ Some people are 'special' and get to take the short bus.
           \_ All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than
        \_ In /var/tmp:
        -rw-------   1 fchan     wheel   1010293 Oct 21  2002 img-PAR087084
        -rwx------   1 brianm    wheel   1308404 Sep  7  2003 DSC01095.JPG*
        -rw-r--r--   1 coganman  wheel  24274863 Jun 13  2003 coganman.tar.bz2
        -rw-------   1 nevman    wheel  35657877 May 11 13:09 nevman.devnull
2004/5/11-12 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30166 Activity:kinda low
5/11    Rep. Duncan Hunter of California, on the beheading of Nick Berg:
        "From my own perspective, it validates Secretary [of Defense Donald]
        Rumsfeld and General [Richard] Myers' attempt to keep these initial
        photos from being published," Hunter said. ... "I think it shows
        they were trying to save American lives when they did that.
        Unfortunately, those pictures were released." -CNN
        \_ The beheading took place some time back.  This was not done in
           retaliation for the abuses at Abu Ghraib.  This was not done by
           Iraqis.  This was done by Al Qaeda.
        \_ I'll bet it would be even better if there was no torture to take
           pictures of.  Then we'd be really set!
           \_ Even though you don't provide any supporting URLs, I kind of
              believe everything you wrote.  Except, it's kind of hard to
              discriminate between Iraqi insurgents and Al Qaeda right now.
              \_ Actually, I was wrong about the timing.  Nick was beheaded
                 on Saturday.  Nevertheless, I think this was a calculated
                 move on the part of foreign insurgents in Iraq (i.e.,
                 Al Qaeda) to stir up precisely the sort of anger against
                 Iraqis we're seeing here. Their hope is that this will
                 drive a wedge between the Iraqis and US troops who have,
                 to this point, been trying to bridge the gap.
                 \_ The U.S. found his body on Saturday.  I guess it's hard
                    to believe the insurgents kept his corpse for a week.
                    Naturally, anti-U.S. forces killed Nick Berg and released
                    the video as an act of terror.
        \_ It's always good to know which congressmen would be happier if the
           American public were more ignorant. If we don't know bad things are
           happening, they they really didn't happen, right? Ooo shiny..
        \_ So what do we know about this Nick Berg guy?  Who was he there
           working for?  Why was he 'detained' by the US for over a week?  It
           was hard to tell from the news if he was even there legally or was
           just some random idiot who decided he was going to Iraq for his own
           random reasons.  Does anyone know for real what he was doing there
           and who sent him, if anyone?
2004/5/11 [Computer/SW/Graphics, Computer/SW/OS/Windows] UID:30167 Activity:high
5/11    How evil is this website? Find out here:
        FWIW: is 51% evil. is only 8% evil. Go Fig!
        \_ and is 19%.  That's one of 5 politburo members
        \_ is 71% good. Yeah!
        \_ is 71% good. Yeah! Beats even
           itself. is 80% good, but is 92%
           while is 50%-50% and is 99% good.
           \_ No, it says is 77% good.
           \_ that's weird that google is 99% good.
           \_ But is 78% good.  Bush is bad, bush is good.
              \_ Ha ha!
        \_ is 65% good.
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30168 Activity:high
5/11    I'm waiting for the media and Dem. Congress to work themselves
        up into a frenzy over Berg's decapitation.  Of course no
        news organization will show the video on TV.
        \_ His family sent their son their just so they could blame it
           on Bushco.
        \_ I heard they played it on CNN.
        \_ "This kind of barbaric behavior will have the same effect it
           usually has: it will make civilized people around the world
           more determined than ever to exterminate al-Qaeda and its
           likeminded brethren.

           "Barbaric behavior doesn't win wars, it just makes your
           enemies more dedicated to their cause, which is why it's so
           important to eliminate the kind of barbarism we've recently
           seen at Abu Ghraib from our own side: because it just makes
           our enemies stronger. If we don't purge it root and branch,
           we've as good as lost the war. In more ways than one."
           \_ What do you hate America?  Why are you not on the side of our
              troops?  What's wrong with our heroic soldiers having some
              fun?  Why aren't Iraqis grateful enough to volunteer as comfort
              women and boys?
2004/5/11-12 [Computer/SW/Languages/Functional, Computer/SW/Languages/OCAML] UID:30169 Activity:very high
5/11    To FP activists on the motd, if currying is such a great idea, why
        it's not implemented symmetrically in say Caml?  It seems more
        natural to treat the arguments of a function more symmetrically.
        \_ If by 'symmetric' you mean that if, for example, I have a function
           f of two arguments a and b, I should be able to curry on either
           a or b, then Ocaml does this using labeled arguments.  Caml does
           not since it's meant to be a 'minimalist' language. -- ilyas
           not since it's meant to be a 'minimalist' language.  In conclusion,
           RIDE BULLET TRAIN!  USE OCAML!  -- ilyas
           \_ I am looking at it.  So far so disappointed.
              \_ I think most people who have been programming for a while
                 have gotten past the 'perfect language' disease.  I would be
                 happy to address specific questions you might have.  Or better
                 yet email me, or drop by #csua. -- ilyas
                 \_ I am not through with the reading yet, so I could be wrong.
                    So far, my complaint is the following: (1) rather bad
                    grammar in general.  (2) The use of capitalization and
                    special characters to signify different kinds of
                    identifiers at the language level.  (3) Field name in
                    record has file scope.  (4) If typing is such an important
                    aspect of it, it might as well make it optional to be
                    dynamic, same with patterns.  (5) Data structure does not
                    feel as flexible as it could be.  One might as well think
                    it is C and implemnt cons using record.  (6) I am not sure
                    how ref works, but I certainly miss pointers.  Overall,
                    it seems to be somewhere in the middle from C, Scheme, and
                    maybe Prolog.
                    \_ (1) People complain about the syntax.  It doesn't
                       bother me.  If it bothers you, Ocaml comes with a
                       syntax redefinition tool called camlp4 -- you can
                       change the ENTIRE syntax if you want.
                       \_ You can write preprocessors to make Fortran look
                          Lisp, Lisp look like Perl, Perl look like Basic,
                          Basic look like C, and C look like Fortran.
                       (2) This is because the language is 'rich.'  Perl does
                       the same thing.  I don't really know a better way.
                       What Ocaml has is better than throwing gobs of parens
                       at the problem like lisp does.  In other words, too
                       much syntax is better than too little.
                       \_ ruby i think is as powerful as perl yet has
                          a very clean syntax, without $ % and bare filehandles
                             it's as fast as it sounds. -- ilyas
                          etc.  -someone else
                          \_ It's true that ruby is clean, but this comes with
                             a price.  Everything in ruby is an object, and
                             it's as fast as it sounds.  The other thing about
                             ruby is that it's dynamically typed, so you need
                             to distinguish less things at compile time --
                             this translates into a lot less syntax.  Naturally,
                             dynamic typing makes things slow, also. -- ilyas
                             \_ No it doesn't. You are wrong on both accounts,
                                here. There are implementation techniques
                                to make pure object-oriented languages and
                                dynamically typed languages perform very
                                \_ Sure it does.  You may make it better than
                                   what ruby has (no hard accomplishment since
                                   ruby has possibly the slowest implementation
                                   of any language), but you will not be able to
                                   beat a statically typed language because
                                   the compiler simply has less information.
                                   OO is useful, but ruby makes everything an
                                   object, which is convenient but those virtual
                                   function calls do add up.  Anyways, if
                                   someone writes a fast ruby compiler, it will
                                   make me happy, ruby is a neat language.  A
                                   good thing to ponder, if you ever go to the
                                   'great language shootout' page, is why the
                                   fastest languages there are either C or
                                   statically typed.  -- ilyas
                                   \_ You are just wrong here. YMWTG
                                      polymorphic inline cache, or Cecil
                                      \_ Read what I said again.  I would be
                                         happy to look at some benchmarks of
                                         Cecil or Self.  Self is neat. -- ilyas
                                         \_ Stop being condecending. I wasn't
                                            referring to your complaints about
                                            the Ruby interpreter, but to
                                            your general statements about
                                            dynamically typed and pure OO
                                            languages. Virtual Machines
                                            have access to all the type
                                            information that was available
                                            statically, and in the case of
                                            some type systems, more. With
                                            that info, the VM and generate
                                            type-specific code, in-line away
                                            virtual functions, usw.
                       \_ I think it's more to shift the burdern from the
                          parser and compiler to the user.  Perl is not a
                          model for good design.
                       (3) Yes, I don't like that.  There are deeper problems
                       with structs and typing.
                         \_ I guess that labels of variant and records are
                            internally represented as integers.  I would be
                            nice to be able to access them directly.  Array
                            type should have the option of specify size,
                            both for efficiency and type checking.
                       (4) I don't understand your reasoning here.  Typing
                       in Ocaml makes me really happy because it catches bugs
                       for me, and because I know how to get around it if I
                       need to (Obj.magic).
                       \_ I am not saying typing is a bad idea.  But it would
                          be nice to have the option (1) to turn it off for
                          some variables or some types and (2) to delay some
                          typing until runtime and (3) go (not so much) further
                          make type a type that one can modifies and manipulate
                          in runtime.  The same goes for pattern.  There will
                          conceptual problems involved, but they are worth the
                          reward.  Plus, most of the logic underlying is
                          already present in the compiler and just need to
                          be incorporated in the runtime, if called for by
                          the program.
                       (5) Don't understand what you are trying to say.  Did
                       you notice the object system too, and functors?  Is the
                       stdlib bad?  What couldn't you find that you would find
                       in another stdlib?
                       \_ sorry, haven't got to the object system yet, but
                          generally I feel that a language should either
                          provide very elementary data structure that allows
                          one to describe arbitrary complex ones with relative
                          ease or provide so many high level data structures
                          that it is hard to ask more.  C and Lisp are
                          examples of the former, while custom programing
                          language (Maple, Mathematica, etc) falls with the
                          latter.  OCaml seems to be in the middle, which is
                          annoying.  For example, I haven't seen a set type,
                          which of course can be implemented with tuple.  But
                          it is not easy to implement efficiently, unless you
                          employs tricks that seem to defeat many OCaml
                          principles.  Again, I could be just ignorant of some
                          of the powers of ocaml.
                       (6) If you really want, you can play with pointers using
                       Obj.magic (again), but you probably don't need them.
                       Very few people these days need pointers (actual integer
                       values) over references (names referring to objects) in
                       practice.  -- ilyas
                       \_ somehow I couldn't find documentation for Obj.magic
                          but it sounds like something bad that if you use all
                          the time, you might as well use another language.
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:30170 Activity:nil
5/11    Subsidizing Illegal Immigration: Illegals get in-state tuition to
         UC & Cal State (Tom McClintock)
        \_ The claim is ridiculous.  I was a legal immigrant and I had to
           pay full tuition until I got a Green card.  And BTW, it was a
           free republic link.  Why bother to hide it?
                \_ its not a claim it is a law.  State sen. McClintock is
                   lying?  I simply cut and past the link from my broswer.
2004/5/11 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:30171 Activity:nil
5/11    If it's a freerepublic link, call it a freerepublic link.
        \_ congenitally stupid twit
           \_ I think you mean "congenitally".  --oc
2004/5/11-12 [Computer/SW/Apps] UID:30172 Activity:high
5/11    I took pictures in my digital camera, but the date was set wrong.
        Now my computer has the wrong "last modification" and "date picture
        taken" values.  How can I adjust these values after the fact?
        \_ can't adobe photoshop or some other too modify this?
            \_ Thanks!  That solves only half the problem, though.
               Photoshop changes the "date picture taken" value, but not
               the "last modification" value.
                \_ uh, touch?
                   \_ in windows?
                         \_ Shit that's cool!  Why haven't I heard of it
                            \_ There's also one that came with Borland C 4.5.
        \_ <whoops, wrong url. will find later>
2004/5/11-12 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:30173 Activity:high
5/11    Is there a sure way to sign an email up for lots of spam?
        \_ yeah I need to know too, my roomate fucked my my car and wouldn't
           pay for it
        \_ go sign up for a bunch of downloads online (quicktime, real audio,
 , etc.), put down his email, then click "Yes, send
           me more information via email!"
           \_ But I want to have really BAD hardcore spams showing there,
              not just some legitimate but annoying promotinal offers.
                \_ try porn sites, posting to newsgroups. maybe try
                   signing up for a hotmail account (which is a magnet
                   for spam) and then have it forwarded to his email
        \_ troll some newsgroups.
           \_ How do I tracelessly forge email address?  Doesn't my ip
              get recorded and sent along as part of the header?
              \_ what do you care?  do you think spammers check for spoofed
                 headers when they try to harvest email addresses?
                 \_ Well, maybe someone will google his email addr and find
                    a forged posting under his name.
2019/02/21 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:May:11 Tuesday <Monday, Wednesday>