Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:May:08 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>
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2004/5/8-9 [Recreation/Computer/Games] UID:30097 Activity:nil
5/7     Fun site when you're working on a Fri nite:
        http://www.funforwards.com/flash/june03/kungfu_bunny.cfm
        http://www.addictinggames.com
        http://www.funnydot.com/flashgamesp/Cyber-Mice-Party.html
2004/5/8-9 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30098 Activity:very high
5/8     In response to "You sincerely believe the pictures show torture?",
        I would say "Yes," and it seems like most in the administration agree.
        Now... why is it that we are only hearing the word "abuse" and not
        "torture"?
        \_ Newspeak?
        \_ Because most people think of torture as physical pain to extract
           information.  The pictures of Iraqis being forced into sexual
           situations don't fit that mental model.  That doesn't mean it isn't
           torture, it just doesn't fit what most people think.
           \_ It's definitely humiliation.
              \_ Ok, that's it.  I've had enough of hearing about how every
                 little thing is a "humiliation" to some Arabs and thus a
                 valid reason for their irrational militarism.  Let's just nuke
                 the cities, leave a radiation-free path to the major oil
                 fields and a few key ports and be done with it.  As the
                 winners we'll be writing the history anyway.
                 \_ So Bush should have never have talked about Saddam having
                    rape rooms, because obviously rape is just humiliation,
                    not torture?  I mean that follows from your arguments.
                \_ making naked human pyramids is pretty out of control.
                   i hope they send those guards somewhere to learn some
                   sense for a very long time.
                 \_ you've HUMILIATED ME you american SATAN!
                    \_ YOU = NUKED.  ME = GOT YOUR OIL.
              \_ Oh... the... Horror! Terrible, terrible ego bruising. We need
                 a bronze monument of the naked man-stack. Never forget!!
           \_ ``When the tall man was not satisfied with my answers, he hit
                me in the face. ''
                http://salon.com/news/feature/2004/05/08/torture
                \_ electro-shock to the genitals, torture.  bitch slap,
                   abuse.  that's why it's called spousal abuse and not
                   spousal torture.
                   \_ Some would call marriage torture, peroid.
                      \_ BDG!
        \_ They show "acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic,
           cruel and inhuman," Rumsfeld said.
           \_ Making you listen to golden oldies while on hold is also
              blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.
        \_ Semantics is a tricky business.  I don't know why some choose to
           call it whatever but I'd agree that most of what we've seen or
           heard of is "torture".  The part I think some people here are
           confused about is the PR effect this will have.  Someone has been
           writing here how "this issue will stick" and thus cause Bush to
           lose this fall.  These are two distinct issues.  It may or may not
           stick in the news cycle for more than the next week or so.  However,
           I disagree with what that means.  I don't think the typical voter
           is going to hold Bush personally responsible.  I do think the rest
           of the world will shove this in our collective faces forever which
           will only serve to make Americans less concerned about what the rest
              participating in hazing.  Hazing in this country has involved
           of the world thinks.
           \_ I agree. -dem
        \_ Rush Limbaugh said it was no worse than "frat hazing." Is being
           gang raped part of frat initiations now? Can someone who is a
           fraternity member enlighten me?
           \_ Frats are gay. Rush is right.
           \_ Quite a few people in this country went to prison for
              participating in hazing.  Hazing in this country had involved
              sodomy, murder, and other things besides.  I don't know what
              Limbaugh had in mind, but he was (sadly) spot on. -- ilyas
              \_ fun trivia fact: the first time George W. Bush was quoted
                 in the New York Times was in 1967, defending the sadistic
                 hazing rituals of the Yale DKE chapter which were under
                 attack by reform-minded yalies out side of the greek system.
                 \_ Were they stacking the fresman naked in pyramids?
              \_ I didn't realize you were a fraternity member ilyas.
                 \_ Congratulations!  You've just won the "dumbass reply of
                    the day" award!
                    \_ Why is it dumb? Did everyone already know that ilyas
                       was in a fraternity except me? How did they know that?
                       \_ Congratulations!  You've just won the "dumbass thread
                          of the day" award!
                       \_ He got banged by everyone and pulled around on a
                          leash in front of Sproul by the Hate Man, with wires
                          attached to his balls.  Where were you?
                          \_ pics?  URL?
        \_ If those pictures show torture I think they should continue
           it and even step up the intensiy a bit.
2004/5/8-10 [Computer/Networking] UID:30099 Activity:moderate
5/8     Helping a friend install DSL.  What are y'all's favorite DSL provider
        in the NYC (upper west side) area?  Personally I'd have them go with
        Speakeasy because I've had such a good experience with them in
        Berkeley.  But friends are just normal users who run windoze and
        don't run fancy servers and the such.  All they need is something
        stable & cheap.  Suggestions?  -- alice
        \_ are you the same alice who used to date that gamerz dude who
           won a Ferrari?
           \_ Uh, no.  -- alice
        \_ aieeeeee, NYNEX
        \_ Unfortunately, the moment you ask for stable, you sort of lose the
           ability to ask for cheap.  You might consider taking a look at
           http://dslreports.com, in my experience, http://dslreports.com tends to have a
           fairly even distribution of success and horror stories for each ISP
           so I didn't find it that helpful in actually drawing conclusions.
           How stable does it really need to be?  If your friend is just
           browsing the web and checking email, consider finding a cheap DSL
           provider that provides a backup dialup account.  Speakeasy does
           this, but they're stable so you never use it, and they're not
           cheap. -dans
        \_ Is your friend committed to DSL? I've been using Road Runner
           cable in Manhattan for about 2 years now. Its worked well.
           Stable and (relatively) cheap (~$40/month).          - rory
2004/5/8-10 [Reference/History/WW2/Germany] UID:30100 Activity:high
5/8     There's a part in Band of Brothers part 2 I don't understand. This
        guy parachutted, landed, and saw another guy and asked him where
        he's from-- Eugene, Oregon, only 10 miles from where the other guy
        lives, and the 2 guys started fraternizing. Then his leader told
        them to not fraternize with the enemy. Moments later we hear the
        machine gun and I'm guessing that the guy from Eugene OR got killed.
        So who is he suppose to be, a Nazi spy?
        \_ Nah, an American with relatives in Germany who decided to fight
           for Gemany rather than the US.  There's really nothing very
           complicated about it.
        \_ Right after he said he was from Eugene, OR, he was asked why he
           was doing fighting for the Germans, and he explained.  How'd you
           miss that?
                \_ yeah I don't know maybe cuz my gf was talking talking
                   talking and not appreciating the film. anyways why would
                   an American fight for Germany, is this common in WW2?
                   \_ he was an American-born German.  It's not so
                      unbelievable.
                   \_ And you didn't slap her face?
                      \_ I don't think it was her face he was slapping when
                         the film was done....
                         \_ unless it was with his ... yeah, nm
                            \_ Well, I mean, if he was using his hand, what
                               else could he have been slap--...err, yeah, nm
        \_ If you read a bit of history and realized when Germany started
           attacking people vs. when the USA entered WWII it might dawn
           on you that perhaps he joined dur fathalande before Amerikkka
           entered the fight.
2004/5/8-9 [Uncategorized] UID:30101 Activity:moderate
5/8     WHO censored my April never ended post? ARGH!!!!
        \_ you should it wasn't the CDC?
        \_ you sure it wasn't the CDC?
2004/5/8-10 [Computer/Companies/Apple, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:30102 Activity:nil
5/8     To the person who was asking about multi-bay Firewire enclosures
        yesterday: http://csua.org/u/77z --jameslin
2004/5/8-10 [Uncategorized] UID:30103 Activity:kinda low
5/8     Has anyone seen "Supersize Me"? Is it worth seeing?
        \_ No. You'll get sick.
        \_ Don't know, but I did see Van Helsing and it was a great ride.
           Just remember that the entire thing is a tongue-in-cheek homage
           to the classic horror films, and you won't be disappointed.
           \_ You sound like one of those mysterious movie critics from
              WBAI in Chicago, or whatever, that are always quoted on
              the posters for complete turkeys: "A fabulous rollercoaster
              ride!  I loved it!" or "An amazing journey into a new world!"
              \_ Well, it _was_ a rollercoaster of a ride, and I didn't
                 want to bother with spoilers, so what should I have said?
                 \_ Just don't quit your day job, is all I'm saying.
2004/5/8-9 [Recreation/Media] UID:30104 Activity:low
5/8     GLANCE AWAY IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ VAN HELSING MOVIE INFO
        \_ No plot is given below.  In fact, the movie doesn't really have a
           plot.  Just go enjoy the show.  There is no movie info below.
2004/5/8-9 [Recreation/Humor, Computer/SW/Languages/Web, Recreation/Media] UID:30105 Activity:nil
5/8     Van Helsing: all action.  Literally, non-stop action.  There is almost
        no point in the movie where you aren't watching action or in the short
        setup to action.  Stick your tongue in cheek, ignore the few minor
        timeline and plot issues and enjoy the show.  I personally found it
        amusing that the female lead was doing all sorts of acrobatics in a
        tight, inflexible corset.  The cgi was excellent except for 2-3 brief
        shots.
2004/5/8-9 [Computer/Networking] UID:30106 Activity:nil
5/8     Has anyone done any formal/informal 802.11 tests? I just FTP'd some
        files from my .b laptop to my wired PC and got about 500KB/s (4-5mbps).
        Is this typical 802.11b bandwidth? I'm about 2 feet from the AP and
        no one else is using it. How does .a compare?
        \_ 11b typically doesn't exceed 6-7mb/s in real world tests.  Google
           for 11a.
2004/5/8-9 [Science] UID:30107 Activity:low
5/8     How long will it be now before the US government and their corporate
        allies try to force DRM style restrictions on digital cameras to
        prevent them from being used in certain locations?   I predict that
        less than two months from now we'll start hearing about some new
        buzzword that describes technology which would render digital cameras
        inoperable whenever a certain local RF signal is sent with a
        do-not-use code which would be available to the government and
        to corporations.  I predict that we'll hear about it on slashdot
        but that the mainstream media will ignore it until it's already
        starting to be implemented and laws are already being drafted to force
        the use of the technology.  What do you think?
        \_ Are we letting annoying freshmans join CSUA again?
           \_ We always have.  The paranoia of youth is almost as charming the
              paranoia of the bitter and old.
           \_ We always have.  The paranoia of youth is almost as charming as
              the paranoia of the bitter and old.
        \_ I don't know about you, but it's illegal for me to to bring any
           sort of camera, digital, cell phone, or otherwise, into my work
           place.
           \_ heh, where I work, it's okay to bring cameras and such to work,
              but you could get in trouble of you're seen taking photos
              outside or on the northern part of the campus.
           \_ work at the NSA?
              \_ LLNL
2004/5/8-9 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:30108 Activity:very high
5/8     On the linux ls discussion from the other day, this is my take:
        Using/learning linux specific flags is all fine and good, and
        adding new features to old tools is too, but when I have to
        switch between 5 different OSes in a given day, it's simply a
        waste of my time.  There are many ways to solve a given problem.
        Linux's solution always seems to be "add another flag".  If you're
        a Linux only shop, have at it.  Learn all the little idiosyncracies
        of your favorite flavor.  But god help you when you get an HPUX
        box thrown at you. --scotsman
        \_ Relax, you'll live longer. Learn how to use alias and edit
           the default profile. -williamc
           \_ You miss the point entirely.  Sometimes this is not an option.
              If you're not a sysadmin then this discussion doesn't matter.
              I'm talking about efficiency in work situations. --scotsman
        \_ Compare:
           ls -S               6 keypresses
           ls -l|sort -n +4    18 keypresses
           Is that something you want to type for such a simple user task?
           It's just arrogant and silly to not do it, for something so
           common and easy. Including the date or name sort is no more valid.
           On soda there is "dir" which has it. Go study UI principles.
           \_ This is the stupidest thing I've seen on motd in weeks.
              Comparing the number of keypresses?  Christ, man, it's about
              getting the job done as effectively as possible.  When you're
              down to counting keystrokes, you've lost touch with reality about
              what constitutes a sane metric for efficiency.
              \_ effective? What's more effective about piping to sort? it's
                 more limiting, and more obscure. And yes, it takes more effort
                 to type that shit out. It's not about "efficiency" so much as
                 simple ease of use and consistency. That's reality. Not some
                 elitist ubergeek deciding to simply put a note in the man page
                 about how it's not needed. Obviously the fact that it's in
                 the man page means it's a desired feature.
                 \_ What's more effective than piping it to sort?  Could you
                    have missed the point any more?  Jeeesus.
                    \_ Ever stop to consider you're the one missing the point?
                       \_ Yes, but I'm not.  Have a cookie.
                 \_ It's not more obscure.  In fact it's less obscure and more
                    consistent unless you're immersed in Linux.  Why is this
                    point so hard to grasp? --scotsman
                    \_ Forget the status quo, it's more obscure from a
                       usability standpoint. I have to know about the sort
                       command and that I have to do ls -l and sort on that
                       4th column but oh I might need the -n for numeric
                       vs. lexical sorting. Honestly this is really really
                       basic. It's not consistent that there is built-in
                       date sort, or alphabetical sort, and not size sort,
           \_ In 10 years, I think there still be be Windows and Mac OS.
                       the only other basic file property. It's not consistent
                       that I need the long detailed listing when with a
                       builtin it could just work like normal. And it's just
                       plain inconvenient. You don't have to be "immersed
                       in Linux" to see that. I barely even use Linux. It's
                       just common sense and refusing to worship status quo.
                       Oh and I'm just arguing about what's correct, not
                       the "least-common-denominator" factor of working with
                       15 different unixes.
                       \_ Did it ever occur to you that sometimes the status
                          quo *is* the status quo because it has worked well
                          since before you were born and is just plain better?
                       \_ The extension of the point is that when you have
                          learned to use sort appropriately you can then
                          apply it in other cases.  Read the philosophy of
                          UNIX page partha posted below.  If you don't work
                          on 15 different unixes then, as I said above, this
                          discussion doesn't apply to you.  If I get pulled in
                          to help out a client to save a $100k sale, I have
                          to get the job done quickly.  Knowing the least-
                          common-denominator allows me to get up to speed
                          quickly.  It's not worshiping anything.  It's doing
                          my job well. --scotsman
                          \_ you know, it's possible to know how to use
                             "sort," and still support the idea of
                             internalizing functions in Unix utilities in
                             appropriate ways.  You don't need "find -nouser"
                             to be able to find files without a legitimate
                             owner, but it's clearly a functional enhancement
                             to the original "find" functionality.  As for
                             the "philosophy of Unix", don't you think it's
                             a bit ironic that the person posting it is
                             mr. emacs?  -tom
                             \_ Either you're following the unix philosophy or
                                you're trying to circumvent and short cut it
                                and that way leads to madness and windows
                                methodology and chaos.
                          \_ well, clearly there is a "merit of having -S in
                             ls" discussion going on, although the thread
                             didn't start with that. But it's devolved into
                             reiterating already-stated points.
                             \_ So rather than being obtuse you're merely off-
                                topic?
                 \_ Obviously?  So if I write a man page that says you don't
                    understand the core concept of unix utilities then it
                    becomes obvious?  Sigh, I shall explain for the unwashed:
                    the core concept you're missing is that unix is about
                    having lots of little utilities that each do one thing
                    really well.  You create a stream of data from little
                    util to the next via pipes and out pops the right thing
                    at the other end.  I know 'ls' and 'sort'.  I know I can
                    pipe from one to other.  I know this works on every *nix
                    system I might ever touch.  This is called portability.
                    Linux is the bastard child here, not the non-Linux real
                    unixen you're deriding.  Linux is following the Windows
                    style of over loading programs with things that seem neat
                    at the time but turn into bloated crap later.  I like Unix.
                    I accept Windows.  I do not want my Unix bloated up into a
                    half assed Windows a la Linux.  Simplicity, son.  KISS.
                    \_ you dolt, yes I know about all that shit. "son". my
                       point is simply about the usability issue. I don't care
                       what other unices are doing, I'm saying that they should
                       do this. Whoever wrote that man page obviously knew
                       about the option and knew there were poeple wanting it.
                       -S is not "bloated crap" any more than -t or -r. ls
                       is probably the most common command users run. Listing
                       files is what ls does, it should "do it well". I could
                       write a man page that says vi is unnecessary because
                       you have ED IS THE STANDARD!
                       \_ Sorting on a date with sort is not the same as
                          sorting on an integer such as size.  Please explain
                          in what way I am a dolt.  Is it that I read your mind
                          and understand what you don't understand to such a
                          degree that you have nothing left to say but insult
                          me?  If that is the case, then yes, I am a dolt.
                          \_ It sure is the same, son. Sorting on a date isn't
                             algorithmically identical, so what, irrelevant.
                             You're ignoring the big picture. I'm done arguing
                             for today though. Btw ls could easily output the
                             date in a sortable manner. Unix philosophy doesn't
                             require factoring everything into as many programs
                             as possible.
           \_ alias ls-S "ls -l | sort -n +4"
              now you can type "ls-S" in 5 keypresses!  for common tasks, you
              can make the number of required keystrokes arbitrarily short or
              long.  non-issue.
              \_ duh. of course you can make an alias. totally beside the
                 point. of course you'd have to do more work to make it work
                 just like a real "ls -S" would.
        \_ This is why after 10 more years, there will only be Linux
           and nothing else, because the other OS are simply too arrogant
           to do anything about it. Take for example the man pages on
           Solaris, I mean how much effort does it take to make it so that
           it will format according to your screen and does not produce
           the stupid 24 line page header every page? Everytime I look at
           the man page on Solaris I curse it. The linux one is so much
           better. One reason why SunOS is fading.
           \_ You know, I HATE working on Solaris.  Nothing works the way
              that I'm used to without aliasing everything.  However, when
              we were running our server on Solaris it never once crashed in
              the entire time I was in charge of it.  I can't say the same
              for any of the Linux installs I've set up.
           \_ In 10 years, I think there still will be Windows and Mac OS.
              Your arguments for Linux and against other Unix OSs are the
              the same as the arguments for Windows/Mac OS and against Linux.
              Every time I read a man page I curse it.  Hyperlinked help files
              are so much better.
              \_ personally, I find the statement "after 10 more years, there
                 will only be xxxxx and nothing else... " to be pretty
                 absurd in the context of any technological question.
                 \- the amount of wrongheadedness in this thread is amazing.
                    but rather than agrue, the youth ought to read ... --psb
                    http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch01s06.html
                    \_ excellent.  --scotsman
                    \_ Yes!  Finally!  This should be mandatory reading before
                       geting into core CS classes or getting a Soda account.
           \_ In 10 more years Linux will 'rewl' because the man pages format
              better than on Solaris?  If that's the best you can come up with
              then just stick with Windows and reboot a lot.
2004/5/8-10 [Uncategorized] UID:30109 Activity:moderate
5/8     I'm traveling to Dublin next week. Other than Newgrange, any
        recommendations on things to see within a few hrs drive or
        train ride from the city? tia.
        \_ Dublin, Ireland or Dublin, CA?
           \_ Ireland.
              \_ Sasanach ithean cac!
        \_ Anyone seen Seano around lately?  -John
        \_ Take a train to Cork in South Ireland. It's beautiful. (3hr train
           ride)
2004/5/8-9 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30110 Activity:very high
5/8     Americans are weird.  They would rather die than give up
        their honor.  Yet, they think it's ok to humiliate Iraqis
        as long as they didn't cut off their fingers, etc.
        \_ ChiCom Troll, you rock.  The number of replies below must be close
           to some record for a single post.  Good job, man.  I'm impressed.
           \_ Damn... gone for a few hours and it tripled in length.  This is
              high quality trolling.  Excuse me while I join back in.
        \_ 'They'?  I think you're confused.  The reaction I've gotten from
           friends, coworkers, media, etc is pretty much anger, embarrassment,
           and outrage.  *Please* don't use Rush or any of a set of political
           pundits to make broad generalizations about a nation of 270+
           million.  *sheesh*
           \_ Sorry 2/3 of America thinks it's overblown.  This is not
              crimes against humanity.  What is shown in those pictures
              is hazing.
              \_ "Do you feel that these incidents are not a big
                 deal, because this kind of thing happens in a war
                 situation, or do you think they are a big deal, because
                 this kind of abuse is unacceptable no matter what the
                 situation?"
                 Not a Big Deal: 28%
                 A Big Deal: 69%
                 No Opinion: 3%
                 http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
                 Fuck you.
                 \_ That's a great poll question.  Very unbiased and neutral
                    wording.  Or not.  It still doesn't matter for the
                    election, for world opinion, middle east poliy or anything
                    else.
                 \_ Well, from the same http://pollingreport.com,
                    "What's your own personal reaction to the apparent abuse
                    of Iraqi prisoners?"  7% not concerned.  39% concerned,
                    not upset.  27% upset, not angry.  24% angry.  2% no
                    opinion.  How concerned vs. upset vs. angry is read
                    depends on your bias.
                    \_ True, but still >50% are more than "concerned".
                       \_ How would you portray the media representation
                          of the abuse?  Not concerned, concerned, upset,
                          or angry?  You can be upset and still think the
                          media is overblown.  It's all relative.
               \_ 2/3?  Uhm, where did you get *that* number from? Rush?
                        \_ I don't listen to Rush though I agree with much he
                           has to say.
                 \_ Polls from any major newspaper?  You've been in the Bay
                    Area too long.  The rest of the country doesn't care.
                    \_ Is it fun to be wrong?
                       \_ Apparently so.  My Texas relatives feel the same way.
        \_ How is that wierd?  Unreasonable, maybe, but very human.
                          Last I checked, Texas isn't in the fucking Bay Area.
                          \_ I meant about your trumped up "fact".  Find me
                             a poll that backs up your statement.  Polling your
                             family doesn't count.
                          \_ Duh, your lefty family sent their kids to a lefty
                             school and it's some shock that they're still
                             lefties?  What was your point again?
                             \_ Heh, you don't know my family.  Your
                                presumptions are basically wrong, kid.  Stick
                                to what you know.
              \_ Umm... hazing is abuse of your peers as a prelude to accepting
                 them into your group.  Unless they were planning on making the
                 Iraqi prisoners honorary US soldiers, it was not hazing, and
                 probably torture.
                        \_ This is not a game of semantics but your
                           definition is inaccurate.  If this is your definition
                           of torture I think the soldiers should continue
                           it and increase the intensity.
        \_ How is that weird?  Unreasonable, maybe, but very human.
           And where does that "rather die than give up their honor" thing
           come from?  That actually doesn't sound very American at all.
        \_ American talked about honors, but they are no more honrable
           than anyone else.  American tend to turn a blind eye on their
           share of dirty things.
           \_ Yes, Americans are people, too.  You have a point?
           \_ Actually, they tend to turn a very open eye on their dirty
              things, which is not the norm in this world. We're certainly
              not turning a blind eye on this Iraq prisoner stuff.
              \_ we are just blaming this to few "bad apples" and let things
                 continue.  The concept of applying the same human right
                 standard to non-white is a recent phenonmon anyway
                 (circa 1960).  The white imperialist mentality, which
                 embedded well within our social DNA, is acting up again,
                 this time, against Arabs or Islam believers in general.
                 \_ and continue?  which is why all of the people involved are
                    now on trial?  Also, "white imperialist mentality?"  "our
                    social DNA"?  <insert ad homenin here>
        \_ Then leave so you won't have to put up with us. Please!!
           Leave!!
        \_ "Honorable" men get to rape and torture dishonorable men (and
           women).  Okay?  And you were thinking of terrorists.  Now go away.
           \_ what is the differences between we and us?  both of us uses
              violent to accomplish our idealogical goal; both of us are
              torturing prisoners.  Neither of us are tolerating each other's
              God.
              \_ People are people at a personal level and all have the
                 capacity to do evil.  The difference is that in my culture
                 this is unacceptable and we put people on trial for it.  In
                 yours the leaders encourage evil and call it good.
        \_ Unfortunately the Dems have been politicizing this war and this
           just another one of their tactics.
           \_ And this is just another republican spin-meistering to try
              to deflect blame away from the party that gave us the WMD,
              anti-terrorist (aka...finish what my father didn't do, and
              get some cheap oil, too, for my buddy Cheney...whoops, didn't
              mean to imply that cheney wasn't the boss) war. Time to topple
              one more regime: the bush regime.
                \_ You missed the averted chemical attack in Jordan?  Would
                   have condemned Bush had he wanted to go into Afghanistan
                   before 9/11?  Were you surprised by Libya's
                   nuclear weapons program?  The world would be better off
                            WRT the Cold War you interpreation of history
                   with Saddam in power?  This is not a war about oil or
                   patronage, it's about assymetrical warfare with a foe
                   fanatically dedicated to the destruction of the West.
                   If Europe had any sense whatsoever they would invade
                   Syria.  This is war of ideas to accelerate a reformation
                   in Islam and cleanup / pacify the Middle East cesspool.
                   This should have been done post-WWII.  Instead
                   brainwashed leftists contrive conspiratorial plots
                   that Bush wants to take over the world and is the new
                   Hitler.  Get a grip and think strategically.
                   \_ Bah!  First we sacrificed the opportunity for a
                      moderate, progressive middle east at the altar
                      of the cold war.  Now, we sacrificed it at the
                      altar of our supposed security interest against
                      terrorists and non-existent WMDs.  Brain-washed
                      neo-cons are absolutely clueless about how to
                      \_ When exactly did we miss out on the chance for a
                         moderate progressive middle east?  In the bizarro
                         world timeline?  Did they teach you this in some
                         "Teach-in" on Sproul?
                      \_ LYING, BACKSTABBING JEWS!!!!!!!!!!
                        \_ I bet you are the kind of person who froths about
                           "identity politics" and how they are destroying
                           our country.
                               point for bringing that up.  What should
                               we have done differently?
                           \_ They are but no one is frothing about it.  Maybe
                              they should be.  My country is worth a healthy
                              dose of frothing over.  Is yours?
                               \_ you totally missed the irony didn't you?
                      foster a moderate middle-east, as can be seen by
                      their utter bungling of the Iraqi endeavor.
                      Long term progress has again and again been
                      sacrificed for short term American interests.
                      Reform has to come from within with US perhaps
                      providing some carrots.  Wielding a big stick
                      clumsily and whacking the wrong targets will
                      never work.
                        \_  It's easy to argue from the vantage point
                            of 20/20 hindsight.   Iraq was 1-2 yrs from
                            a nuclear weapon in '92.  You ignored my
                            question WRT to Jordan and Afghanistan because
                            I don't think you have a cogent argument, relying
                            instead on platitudinous rhetoric.  Would you have
                            supported action in Afghanistan prior to 9/11?
                            WRT the Cold War your interpreation of history
                            is flawed.  It was France and Britain that
                            partitioned the ME, we had relatively little
                            involvement.
                            We were doing quite well in Iran, for instance,
                            until Carter betrayed the Shah.  Your entire
                            \_ no we didn't.  We overthrew a true democracy
                               for a brutal dictator that is almost as bad
                               but not nearly as effective as Saddam.
                            comment is vague.  Please, specifically what
                            would you have done differently?  What, when
                            and how did we sacrifice????  I don't understand
                            what historical event you are describing.
                            \_ I am not the guy who says "topple the
                               Bush regime".  Frankly, I don't see the
                               point of your two questions with regard to
                               Jordan and Afghanistan.  Would you have
                               condemned Clinton if he decides to go
                               into Afghanistan during his term?  The
                               Republicans sure would have.  Would it
                               have stopped 9/11, or a similar incident?
                               I doubt it, as long as the lax security
                               on the homefront continued.  I am actually
                               for the invasion of Afghanistan to get rid
                               of OBL.  Above you claim that foes are
                               trying to destroy "the West", and now you
                               try to distance US from the past history of
                               Britain and France which are part of the
                               West.  In any case, I don't see what's your
                               point for bringing that up.
                                \_ They are self declared as trying to destroy
                                   the West as their goal.  The US wasn't the
                                   country that divided the middle east.  You
                                   are trying to create a false link between
                                   these two true statements.
                               What should we have done differently?
                               For a start, we should have reduced our gas
                               guzzling habits, and hence dependence on
                               middle east oil.  With that,
                               instead of cuddling up with dictators,
                               we could have better encouraged the
                               progressive and reform minded elements in
                               those societies starting with Saudi Arabia
                               from which most of the 9/11 terrorists
                               came from.
                                   \_ Which progressive and reform minded
                                      elements?  You're just joking with that
                                      line, right?
                                   \_ Yet you also want to constrain
                                      domestic oil production (ie. Anwar).
                                      So the US should have retreated to
                                      isolationism rather than deal with
                                      dictators during the Cold War???
                                      What a strategy, comrade!  Your
                                      suggestions are not grounded in
                                      reality.  Reform minded elements
                                      among the Saudis... I see.  Do you
                                      know anything at all about the history
                                      of the country? Anything???
                                      Killing OBL during the '90s would
                                      not have changed the outcome of
                                      9/11???
                                      \
                    -------------------
                    (1) who's talking about oil production?  it's oil
                    consumption we are talking about.
                          \_ Well nuclear is out because of greens / libs.
                             That leaves what - wind power???  Do you
                             live in reality???
                             \_ read the report put out by NSF, it said
                                that by increase fuel efficiency by 10% in
                                light truck and cars, we would of saved more
                                oil than two Alaska's reserve.
                                \_ fuel efficiency has risen dramatically over
                                   the last 50 years.  people just drive more.
                                   until we get to that mythical 100+ mpg on
                                   all our vehicles you're only delaying the
                                   inevitable.  and now we have China ramping
                                   up their industry and competing on the world
                                   market for the same oil....
                    (2) Isolationism?  who's talking about isolationism.
                    learn to read, and stop setting up childish strawmen.
                        \_ Then what?  We shouldn't have allied with
                           Stalin during WWII?  Rhee was a bad idea
                           in Korea?  The Shah was a bad idea in Iran?
                           I think you are completely devoid of
                           any pretense, instead substituting feigned
                           indignance for substantive argument.
                           We saw the cumbaya group hug rhetoric
                           from Carter.  Again reality????
                           \_ Please don't even mention Carter on the motd
                              again.  The mere mention of his name makes me
                              physically ill.  If you must, please refer to
                              him as "that weakling idiot peanut farmer".
                              Thank you.
                    (3) Reform minded elements is exactly right.  Been
                    too busy pumping the oil to have noticed?  If you
                    don't know much history, at least learn how to use
                    google.
                        \_ Saudi Arabia is controlled exclusively
                           by the children of Aziz (brothers).
                           Exactly how would you circumvent them?
                           Crown Prince Abdullah is more anti-Western
                           then Fahd. Again reality is important!
                        \_ If you so easily found "reform minded elements"
                           in the Saudi kingdom please share the links with the
                           rest of us who lack your search-fu.
                    (4) Killing OBL in the 90s?  And who's the one
                    complaining about 20/20 hindsight?  And Clinton did
                    made an attempt to kill him with the missile attack.
                    Wasn't too successful but neither is Bush's efforts
                    so far.  Meanwhile, bombs are still going off all
                    over the world.  Why isn't it going off in the US?
                    Like I said, tightened domestic security.
                        \_ Really?  How about when OBL was in north africa and
                           his 'hosts' offered and even begged us several times
                           to take him and Clinton said no?
                        \_ Right... launching Tomahawks at camels in the
                           desert.  Clinton has admitted he did not
                           take OBL from Sudan when offered.  Attacked
                           5 times in the '90s.. what was the response?
                           Waco, elian, and effectively selling ballistic
                           missile technology to China.  In summary
                           I ask for specific policy differences you
                           propose.  Instead I get extremely vague
                           wishy washy nonsense.  Why I am not surprised
                           and why did I even bother??
                           \_ We invade Iraq to stop terrorism? Why not just
                              use our resources (money, lives) wisely, instead
                              of using the "war on terror" as an excuse (and
                              opportunity) in fulfilling a pre-9/11 republican-
                              fucks agenda. Quit living with your head up
                              Bush's ass.
                              \_ Not the same poster, but even I can see
                                 that this response has nothing to do with
                                 his rebuttal to your arguments. You lose.
                                 \_ that is because every time we won, you
                                    fucking deleted the thread.
                                    \_ _I_ Deleted the thread?  That's
                                       interesting.  Maybe you should use
                                       "someone" instead of "you".  You
                                       lose again.
                                    \_ No one has deleted a god damned thing.
                                       That old lie is the final excuse for
                                       being crushed in motd debate.  I expect
                                       this whole embarassing (to you) episode
                                       to get censored in a few minutes.
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:May:08 Saturday <Friday, Sunday>