Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:May:07 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/5/7 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:30074 Activity:very high
5/6     To whoever was suggesting the Branch Davidians were murdered in cold
        blood without provocation, these are the names of the four ATF agents
        killed when they tried to serve a search warrant:
        Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan, Robert Williams, Steven Willis
        \_ I'm one (the other?) guy who argued with ilyas. Call me "fascist".
           Now, I've read some conspiracy theories out there purporting that
           a) ATF agents opened fire first and b) the first 3 ATF deaths were
           friendly fire, which forensics supposedly corroborates. Then c)
           pissed off feds try to cover the thing up. I don't really know
           the truth here. The official inquiries don't support that, and if
           that was true then just what they were negotiating about during
           the weeks-long siege. I don't believe the Davidians were meekly
           unresisting. I do think it was a royal fuckup which wasn't
           adequately resolved.
        \_ why did the ATF call a local tv station to come on down
           and film them busting the doors down at le compound?  they
           in the US after WTC I.
           could have just called david koresh to come to the station
           and turn himself in.  instead someone unwisely turned
           it all into a clusterfuck.
        \_ Okay, quit it. You aren't Walter Cronkite. Give it a rest.
        \_ Bullshit, six Davidians also were killed in the initial
           shootout.  It has never been established that the Davidians
           fired first, more likely the ATF.  Koresh used to walk
           around town by himself a few days a week and had gone
           shooting with ATF agents in the past.  It was
           never proven any of their arms were illegal.  And I
           suppose you think Randy Weaver's wife and son also
           had it coming?
           Furthermore, this is the shit the intelligence agencies were
           up to during the '90s, all the while Islamicists were festering
           in the US after WTC I.                  -Mr. Bullshit
           \_ 'more likely the ATF'?  What are you talking about?  Do you
              really have a reasonably legitimate source showing that ATF
              is composed of trigger-happy psychopaths, or is this just
              juvenile anecdotal 'I Hate Mom and Da--err Cops!'?  I find it
              very, very unlikely that federal agents serving a warrant would
              have just started randomly shooting people, "Hey!  That guy is
              ugly! <BLAM!>  That dude is short!  <BLAM-BLAM!>"  Get fucking
              serious.  I find it much more realistic that they tried to serve
              the warrant, were fired upon, and in turn fired back.  People
              do tend to die in shootouts -- it's a proven fact.  Honest!  If
              you can provide even semi-credible sources to back your claims,
              I'll gladly concede the point (and be very pissed off at the
              gross incompetency that my tax dollars are paying for).
              \_ What was the warrant for?  Weren't they entrapped by the Feds
                 into buying an illegal shotgun or something stupid like that?
              \_ Proof that the Feds are a bunch of trigger happy jack boot
                 thugs?  Ruby Ridge.  Concede anything?
           \_ I'm not going to try to debate or defend the ATF raid, but
              someone very smugly said NO federal agents were killed, the
              Davidians never fired a shot, and challenged people to name the
              agents killed if there were any.  -dgies
           \_ what is this davidian thing all about?  it kind of reminds
              me of what we are doing to falluja.
              \_ And why the hell are you guys arguing about it NOW?!  There's
                 a lot more heinous things going on in the world RIGHT NOW.
                 \_ You see, son, there's this thing called HISTORY.  Some
                    people are interested in it because it can often provide
                    context to this other thing called the PRESENT.  The two
                    are often very strongly related to each other.  Use a
                    dictionary, you might find it elucidating.
                    \_ Yes, history is important.  However, rehashing idiotic
                       message board arguments from ages ago is not illuminating
                       in any way.  Absolutely nothing I've seen here wasn't
                       run into the ground by every wingnut on every side of
                       the issue 10 years ago, and it didn't help anything then
                       or provide context.  Oh yeah, and as to your cute
                       little dictionary comment, obFuckYou.
                       \_ It educated some people at the time as to the evils
                          the Government can inflict upon the People.  We
                          rehash it (this is the History Lesson part) in an
                          effort to educate those, apparently such as yourself,
                          that the Government still acts like that and it is
2004/5/7 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:30075 Activity:moderate
5/6     I'm running an old openbsd 3.2 system.  I see that 3.5 now uses
        ELF instead of a.out and they say source upgrade is not an option and
        binary is possible but "very difficult".  I'm lazy but need to upgrade
        for various reasons.  I use openbsd because I love 'pf'.  I hate the
        linux firewall tools.  I haven't tried the other bsd's in a long time.
        This is a headless server system so I don't care at all about the GUIs,
        hardware support, or other apps.  It's a firewall, mail, apache, dns,
        and ssh server.  Before I bite the bullet and rebuild an openbsd 3.5
        system (which I'm *very* familiar and comfortable with) is there any
        reason to switch to any other *nix out there?  What am I missing
        sitting in my little isolated openbsd world?  Thanks!
        \_ FreeBSD has pf.  join us!
           \_ The pf port is pretty good, but it is missing newer features
              like pfsync and carp.
           \_ Which version of FreeBsd would you suggest?  Does pf exist in the
              4.x series?  Should I wait for 5.3 or is 5.21 working ok enough
              for a home server?  Thanks again.  --op
                \_ 5.2.1 seems to be pretty stable. I'm running it on a
                   box at work that provides nfs, nis, smb, apache, mail
                   and ntp with pf acting as a host firewall.
        \_ Not much, if all you are using the box for is a router then stick
           with what you know.
        \_ I'm in a similar position. I have a OpenBSD 3.3 box that acts
           as a router/firewall. I'm planning to reinstall w/ OpenBSD 3.5
           because it has lots of security updates (privilege sep. named,
           OpenSSH 3.8.1, pro-police, &c.).
2004/5/7 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:30076 Activity:nil
5/6     Installed lynx with openssl and now I have the following msg:
        "unable to get local issuer certificate"
        What's going on?
2004/5/7 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:30077 Activity:nil
5/6     Cool, I got the censors to delete the stupid illegal immigrant thread!
2004/5/7 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:30078 Activity:kinda low
5/7     croned motd: squishable? gray area esp. after the paolo incident
        croned wall: squishable? like croned "obFirst", is that squishable?
2004/5/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:30079 Activity:insanely high
5/6     Everyone should read the latest entry from Riverbend:
        \_ URL  deleted due to advertising lameness.
           \_ What advertising lameness?
              \_ You need to tell people what this is about.
                 \_ Okay:  Riverbend is a blog by an Iraqi woman living in
                    Baghdad.  Her most recent entry talks about current Iraqi
                    reactions to the pictures from Abu Ghraib; as might be
                    expected, this reaction is not favorable to the Coalition.
                    It's an interesting read in that it shows an average
                    Iraqi's take on things, a perspective often lacking in
                    US media's portraits of the situation there.
        \_ "I sometimes get emails asking me to propose solutions or make
           suggestions. Fine. Today's lesson: don't rape, don't torture,
           don't kill and get out while you can- while it still looks
           like you have a choice... Chaos? Civil war? Bloodshed? We'll
           take our chances- just take your Puppets, your tanks, your
           smart weapons, your dumb politicians, your lies, your empty
           promises, your rapists, your sadistic torturers and go. "
           \_ w00t!
           \_ Why do you hate America? Oh...
           \_ w00t! (please don't censor my w00t! asshole!)
                \_ finally got around to looking up what this means :P
           \_ You may end up regretting statement Riverbend.
              \_ Murphy's Law #302: Anyone who asks, "How can things possibly
                 get any worse?" should be beaten about the head and shoulders
                 with a stick.
           \_ Why do you hate America??? Oh... (why does the AMC hate this?)
2004/5/7 [Computer/HW/CPU] UID:30080 Activity:high
5/7     Intel to cancel their Tejas.
        \_ hehe, bye-bye high-freq 90nm (for now), hello multicore!
           They will get mileage from their Centrino -> desktop designs,
           but you won't see those CPUs for two years I think.
        \_ The synchronicity of this and the info from MS that the average
           system in 2 years for Longhorn will have a dual-core is interesting,
           to say the least.
        \_ Sandals have been out of fashion for some time.
           \_ Those are Tevas.
2004/5/7 [Uncategorized] UID:30081 Activity:high
5/7     HL2 WinHEC demo (crazy!): (
        \_ That footage is pretty old
2004/5/7 [Recreation/Media] UID:30082 Activity:very high
5/7     How many sitcom last episodes have you seen?  Have you liked any?
        \_ MASH, although, really, MASH crosses over into other categories
           oh no, a show reflecting real life, and not a tv show category
           \_ It was really more of a drama with a lot of dark humor to take
              the edge off.
        \_ i miss reruns of Soap
        \_ Growing Pains
        \_ Married with Children
           \_ what was the ending to this one, I can't remember...
              \_ Kelly's wedding, which she broke off at the last minute. It
                 was pretty weak.
                 \_ Nikki Cox is hotter than Christina Applegate.
        \_ Seinfeld - it's not TOO bad..
        \_ Friends: was a good episode.
           \_ but a worthy ending to 10 years?
              \_ a worthy ending to 10 years of Friends would have been a
                 car bomb right outside that fucking cafe.  -tom
                 \_ Yaaay!
        \_ Futurama's last ep was decent.
           \_ they cancelled Futurama?  Will it be revived?
        \_ Cheers
2004/5/7 [Politics/Domestic, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30083 Activity:high
5/7     Rumsfeld's testimony before Congress is on cspan radio right now:
        free access in multiple formats
        \_ The bell tolls for thee, Rummy.
           \_ Not really.  I assume you didn't listen to the testimony?
              \_ You mean the testimony where he wouldn't answer ANY direct
                 \_ "Mr. Secretary, that's a very simple straightforward
              \_ If you've been following the news for the last two years,
                 do you really need to?
        \_ Rumsfeld has served his purpose.  He gave the military structure a
           kick in the ass.  He made the comfy n cozy paper pushers do their
           fucking jobs for the first time.  He killed some useless weapons
           programs and promoted some better ones that weren't as "sexy" to
           the pentagon types.  He can do one last useful thing when he bites
           the bullet for the prisoner abuse and fades into the sunset.
           -R.B. Cheney
2004/5/7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30084 Activity:high
5/6     867,000 new jobs created this year.  Unemployment rate down to 5.6%
        \_ 867k low-pay/service sector/temp jobs.  Yawn.  Besides, 2 months
           of job growth does not make a trend.  And the torture of Iraqi
           prisoners will result in a universal wave of disgust that will
           knock the Bushies out of office.
           \_ hey, Dubya didn't promise "good" jobs
           \_ Bush can still pull out of Iraq and win the election. I don't
              think he will, though.
           \_ What, you think all the jobs based on nothing from the .com era
              will come back?
        \_ Funny quote from the article: "More Americans are working today
           than at any time in our nation's history."  No shit Sherlock.
           There are also more Americans today than at any time in our
           nation's history.
           \_ That's why they're good politicians.  They say things that are
              only misleading but not wrong.
           \_ Of course critics have been saying that there are more people out
              of work now than ever for quite a while.  Soon, any economic
              statistic will favor the present.
              \_ You mean like "we currently have the highest trade deficit
                 ever"? The highest government deficit ever? The highest
                 oil prices ever? I would not call that favoring the present,
                 but I guess that is one way to look at it.
2004/5/7 [Uncategorized] UID:30085 Activity:nil
5/6     Long range missile downed in test by anti-missile laser: (
2004/5/7 [Uncategorized] UID:30086 Activity:nil 66%like:32218
5/7     This Poll will be deleted in:
        \_ less than 2 hours
        \_ more than 2 hours
        \_ when ______________ gets to it.
2004/5/7 [Uncategorized] UID:30087 Activity:high
5/7     "I've said today that there are a lot more photographs and videos that
        exist. If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to
        make matters worse. That's just a fact. ... I mean I looked at them
        last night and they're hard to believe." -Rummy
        \_ okay, i don't know the context of this quote, but what is he
           saying, "fire me now?" or "it's not my fault?"
           \_ I listened to the whole testimony.  I think what he's saying
              is "I/we fucked up.  This is really bad, and could get worse.
              I'm sorry.  There will probably be another series of massive
              media bombshells over the next few months, so be prepared. "
           \_ I think he's saying "I'll resign when I think I need to."
2004/5/7 [Uncategorized] UID:30088 Activity:high 50%like:11896
5/7     McGriddles?  Yay or nay?
        \_ Bring back the McDLT!
           \_ Big yay.  Very big.
           \_ Keep the hot side hot and the cool side cool!
           \_ Where's the Ribwich?
              \_ Look!  I don't mind the taste!
              \_ Uhmm, the animal they made that out of is extinct.
              \_ the McRib? I love how those are formed to look like
                 they have the rib bone intact.  wft is that all about?
2004/5/7 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:30089 Activity:moderate
5/7     What's up with this?
        63318 jenly     59   0 19648K 1192K RUN  625:30 67.53% 67.53% perl5.005
        \_ What's with the anonymous question? -emarkp
        \_ you too can run the ps command.
           \_ make sure to use the -w flag
              \_ www
        \_ That has eaten up 11 hours of CPU time in the past 29 hours.
        \_ got pics?
        \_ looks like out of control spamassassin
        \_ is it a girl or a guy? If a guy, he needs to be squished. If a
           girl, I would like to touch her.
           \_ "Jennifer Ly" sounds like a girl.
2004/5/7 [Politics/Domestic/Crime, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:30090 Activity:very high
5/7     Don't tell me people's civil liberties are not being trampled on
        in The War Against Terror:
        \_ I don't think anyone actually denys it.  Republicans just don't
           care.  Actually, I think that's an understatement.  Republicans
           such as John Ashcroft simply don't believe in civil liberties,
           and clearly demonstrate by their actions that the believe American
           due process of law to be a mistake, not a virtue.  These people
           are every bit as much enemies of the United States and everything
           it stands for as our foreign enemies.  If things in this coutry
           do not change direction, there *will* be civil war.
           \_ I think I should mention that *some* Republicans do care about
              civil liberties and dislike Ashcroft, but for whatever reason,
              they're not that vocal about it.  -motd liberal
              \_ When I say we're heading towards civil war, it's not because of
                 specific actions by Republican leadership; it's because of
                 statements and actions by ordinary citizens who happen to be
                 republicans.  Take a look at the motd.  Listen to AM talk
                 radio for an hour.   Maybe you didn't notice in 2001
                 when these people were calling for Arab Muslims to be rounded
                 up into concentration camps?  This problem won't go away
                 by Bush getting defeated in this election.  It will either
                 go away by a consistent, nation-wide cultural shift towards
                 more freedom-loving values, or, more likeley, by worsening
                 until it comes to war.
                 \_ Actually, a secession along county (rather than state)
                    lines, based on voting majority would work out nicely
                    (for me). -- ilyas
                    \_ what's wrong with state lines?
                       \_ Too much oppression of voting minorities that way.
                            -- ilyas
                          \_ There's a tradeoff. I think a little group of
                             counties like in the smaller states works
                             better. They can afford better quality gov't
                             and better share power over natural resources.
                             \_ Actually a break into two roughly equal sized
                                chunks will work ok, as long as they both
                                allow immigration, people will just move to the
                                'right' chunk after a while.  Large chunks have
                                the advantage of not getting taken over by
                                Random_Power_001. -- ilyas
                                Random_Power_001.  If the two chunks started off
                                on equal footing, it would be an interesting
                                social and political experiment. -- ilyas
                 \_ So you think they are going to break out their guns
                    if Bush loses in November?
                    \_ I had a dream last night that the Administration
                       postponed the election to "avoid sending the wrong
                       message to our enemies."  The reaction was not pretty.
                    \_ I think he's saying that liberals are going to wake
                       up and start the war.
                       \_ I sure hope not. -motd liberal
                    \_ Given the economic numbers today, that seems unlikely.
                \_ The bill of rights only protects the weak and the subversive
                   while govt regulations are stilfing us the real Americans.
                   When and if your prophecy comes true, is it hard to bet
                   which side will win?  The peacniks in lotus pose  or we who
                   will take any and every measure to defeat them?  Hmm, it
                   would be fun when we round up liberal chicks as illegal
                   combatants for interrogation.  -- neocon
           \_ Maybe so, but you do realize there's a big difference
              between traditional crime a terrorism, right?  The laws
              designed for traditional crime just don't hold for
              terrorism.  It's a different bag.
           \_ "Republicans just don't care" is a huge overstatement.  The view
              is that they'll give up some liberties so planes aren't crashing
              into buildings, nukes aren't going off, suicide bombers aren't
              exploding.  The idea is, "If the government is watching you, you
              must be doing something bad already."
              I'm not saying this is the correct view, but I believe this is
              the view held by most Republicans.
        \_ How is this any different than any other criminal federal grand jury
           \_ How long can the government hold a person in solitary without
              charging him with a crime or allowing him access to a lawyer?
              \_ in civilian courts, I believe 24 hours.
              \_ In national security cases, as long as they please.
                 (Newsflash: This is not new with Bush.)
                 \_ Basically, if you are designated an enemy combatant,
                    or a material witness
                 \_ Give us an example from the last 30 years.
                    \_ Here is a whole raft of examples post 9/11
                       \_ I believe op mis-stated his question, and wanted
                          to know of examples between the Vietnam War and 9/11.
                          \_ Yes, exactly, thank you. -op
                             \_ here's one example:
                                there are other examples.  but no clue how
                                prevalent usage of the statute was in general.
                                \_ Oh, that doesn't count.  Anti-abortion
                                   activists don't have rights.
                    \_ The "material witness statute" was enacted in 1984. I
                       don't know how often it's been invoked pre-9/11.
        \_ As usual posters on the MOTD have ZERO appreciation of history
           during wartime (or anytime for that matter).  Citizens today
           enjoy far and away more civil liberties than any time in the
           history of this country.  Learn about some of the actions
           taken by FDR, Wilson, and Lincoln to suppress dissent.
           This story sounds very similar to the Intel employee
           who was locked up for some time, all the while
                    into Afghanistan?
           screaming bloody murder about innocence, and is now serving
           a generous prison term.
           \_ As I recall, he was convicted of providing aid to a terrorist
              organization.  He claims he gave money to an Islamic charity.
              The gov't said that the charity gave money to Hamas.  Did he
              really intend to give money to Hamas?  Or is he simply guilty of
              not researching the charity's finances and being Arab?
              \_ You recall incorrectly: -jrleek
                 \_ OK, my bad.  There was *someone* sent up the river for
                    giving money to somebody who gave money to Hamas.
                 \_ He faces 10 years in prison for trying, and failing to get
                    into Afghanistan?
                    \_ That and material aid to the Taliban.  Think about
                       it.  He's a US citizen.  Helping out the enemy in
                       time of war is treason.  In the old days they just
                       would have shot him.
           \_ Yeah, Wen Ho Lee served a generous prison term too.
           \_ Shut up you Facsist Nazi Bad Man!  NO FREE SPEECH FOR
           \_ I'd be really interested in a book on what the crap
              Mr. Hawash was thinking.  What convinced him to leave a good
              job, and 3 kids, to go and "die as a martyr?"
              \_ Phony spirituality.  "Making people do stupid things since
                 34AD". -- ilyas
                 \_ so what's your excuse?
                    \_ Just garden variety stupidity in my case. -- ilyas
                       P.S. Do I know you, Mr. Secret Admirer #5?
                 \_ 34AD?  It goes back a whole heck of a lot farther that
                    that, anti-christian boy.
                    \_ Note, I said 34, not 33. -- ilyas
           \_ Ah, good old Mike Hawash I thought that was dang funny.
           \_ most of those actions were deplorable. Japanese internment,
              hell the whole Civil War was an unethical disaster.
                \_ The internment was not bad.  That there property was
                   not returned afterwards was.  Other ethnic groups
                   were also detained including Italians, Germans and
                   \_ So you'd be fine with the government locking you up for
                      a few years in the name of security?
                      \_ Of course he wouldn't. But the only lock up those
                         "other" people, not REAL Americans.
                      \_ My point is given the saboteur rhetoric widespread
                         in Japanese newspapers at the time, the caches of
                         weapons that were found, and the context of the
                         times it seems entirely reasonable to evacuate
                         coastal regions of recently arrived Japanese (not US)
                         citizens and their children (and Germans, Italians
              initially get lawyers until the copys figure out what's
                         and Mexicans).
                         The Federal government was much smaller so large
                         scale surveillance was not pluasible, a Japanese
                         invasion of the west coast was completely
                         possible, and sabotage in Europe by Axis agents had
                         done much damage.
                         They should have been given some payment based on
                         their detainment and their property returned.
              \_ Funny, I thought we were discussing the legality of the
                 action, not the ethics.  legal != ethical (and vice
        \_ Turns out he was one of the lawyers defending Jeffrey Battle,
           another of the Portland 7.
           \_ If that's true it's a good example of why terrorist don't
              initially get lawyers until the cops figure out what's
              going on.  Terrorists in jail can still communicate deadly
2004/5/7 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:30091 Activity:nil
5/7     Shocking news flash!  Michael Moore is a self-promoting lying scumbag.
        \_ self-promoting?  sure.  everyone in the industry is.  lying?  The
           crux of his charge is that disney decided not to distribute his
           film because of pressure from politicians.  when he knew about it
           doesn't change the validity of the charge.  scumbag?  i'll leave
           that to people who know him.  Keep in mind that he was already on
           the cannes festival shortlist.
        \_ i can handle one little white lie by mm versus
           well just about 1000 other things going on right now.
           \_ Non sequitur.
        \_ If you read what Mickael Moore really said, that article does a very
           good job at taking stuff out of context to make him sound a lot
           worse that he really is.  Shocking news flash!  The Independent is
           a totally partisan rag!
        \_ You can't really fault a filmmaker for trying to create free
           publicity.  MM is indeed a lying scumbag, so much so that this is
           \_ Yes I can.
           like criticising the devil for smoking (though, i have to admit,
           i still am a bit of a fan), but it is his affinity for dishonesty
           *IN* his movies that is dispicable, not his self-promotion. -phuqm
           \_ Of Satan or Michael Moore? -- ilyas
        \_ shrug, what's wrong with having an agenda to make Disney look bad?
           He didn't lie in this instance.  He just held the news until he
           could exploit it to maximum negative effect.  Seems to me the
           reporter is just swallowing the freeper spin hook, line, and sinker.
2004/5/7 [Uncategorized] UID:30092 Activity:nil
2004/5/7 [Computer/SW/Unix, Computer/Theory] UID:30093 Activity:high
5/7     How do I make ls sort files by size like -t for time? thx
        \_ From man ls:
           The following is how to do an ls listing sorted by size
           (and shows why ls does not need a separate option for this):

           ls -l | sort -n +4

        \_ use Linux, it's -S
           \_ I want to do this on soda!
              \_ download gnu fileutils, compile, presto.
              \- ls -ls | sort -n[r] --psb
                 \_  ls -ls | sort -n[r]
                     sort: No match.
                     \- dont actually type the [], you doofus --psb
                 \_ ls -l | sort +4   is more general.
                    \- it's more fragile. ls -s always makes the sort field
                       first. otherwise the field can depend on whether the
                       group owner is listed etc ... varies by ls flavor,
                       ls aliases etc --psb
                       \_ well, I meant since it depends on block size it
                          would fail by default for tiny files.
                          \- fair enough, but really arnet you just looking
                             for the biggest file 95% of the time. --psb
                    \_ Add a -n for good measure.  Not all platforms will
                       detect an all numeric column, so "sort -n +4"
                       \_ ok, but he said "want to do this on soda!" :)
                          frankly though I think the man page is stupid and
                          it should be an ls option for convenience. they
                          have the other sorting functionality.
                          \_ They have sorting for time becuase sorting human
                             readable dates is difficult with other default
                             command line tools.  Sorting file size is easy.
                             This is the UNIX way.  many modular pieces you
                             can piece together to do what you want.  Linux
                             makes you weak. --scotsman
                             \_ it's a bunch of extra characters to type for
                                a basic, common desire that could very easily
                                just be in ls where normal people expect. (hey,
                                why should sort have a field option anyway? you
                                can just manipulate lines using 'cut' etc. It's
                                the way real men do it.)
                             \_ don't be a doofus--it's not like FreeBSD
                                "ls" is "pure" (color "ls" doesn't make you
                                weak, but sorting on size does?)  -tom
                                \_ I wasn't talking about purity.  And I guess
                                   it wasn't clear that I was being facetious.
                                   But the point stands that to pull sort into
                                   ls with yet another command line option
                                   makes ls more tedious to remember how to use
                                   and postpones the newer user's learning how
                                   to use sort.  And who uses color ls?
                                   \_ how is it more tedious?  If you don't
                                      want to use -S, pipe it through sort
                                      instead.  -tom
                                      \_ I guess I'm just sick of interviewing
                                         IT drones who can't write a decent
                                         command line.. --scotsman
                                         \- how about adding a du flag that
                                            just means du all the directories
                                            under here but not the files.
                                            how about another du flag that
                                            is directories only in size
                                            order. and another that sorts
                                            based on number of files rather
                                            than cumul size.. --psb
                                            \_ Ah yes, I forgot; the only
                                               "official" command-line options
                                               are the ones that FreeBSD has
                                               adopted.  Therefore it's OK
                                               to use "find -delete", but not
                                               "ls -S"  -tom
                                                   \- pure is BSD 4.3 --psb
                                   \_ color ls is the best thing since linux!
                                      just like color monitor is the best thing
                                      since monochrome green terminals.
                                   \_ Once you begin to appreciate color ls, you
                                      will never go back, like a lot of things.
                                      \- dired >> ls --psb
        \_ using sort -n +5 gets rid of the color, oh fuck, fuck!!
        \_ If you are using a terminal with black background, try
           LSCOLORS=BxDxFxdxCxdxdxBxBxBxBx and do ls -G
           \_ Cool, ls -lG / looks nice!
2004/5/7 [Computer/SW/Virus] UID:30094 Activity:nil
5/7     Have you installed both Norton and McAfee on the same system?
        Which is better?
2004/5/7 [Uncategorized] UID:30095 Activity:nil
5/7     To colorize your ls output on soda, set the LSCOLORS env var, ie:
        setenv LSCOLORS=BxDxFxdxCxdxdxBxBxBxBx
        then set terminal to xterm-color/linux
        finally alias ls 'ls -CFG'
2004/5/7-9 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:30096 Activity:very high
5/7     So Redhat has this enterprise line that costs big bux. Anyone seen
        Seems to have all advantages with no cost, except the vague uneasiness
        of not being "real" red hat. Are real enterprises using clones?
        \_ Linux is linux. The kernel is exactly the same. You are paying
           for support for RHE, not the software.
           \_ redhat has been backporting 2.6 features into their 2.4 kernel,
              so 'the kernel is exactly the same' isn't always true
           \_ In theory but some ISVs only certify their shit for RHEL.
              If stuff is set up to work on their particular setup then you'd
              want to use that instead of "Fedora" or something.
        \_ Real enterprises don't use linux.  Real enterprises are happy to
           spend tremendous amounts of money so when something goes wrong the
           guy who purchased the stuff doesn't get fired.  Instead, they grab
           the vendor by the balls and the vendor's staff works day and night
           to resolve the problem.  When the NYSE is run on the same linux I
           can download or buy off the shelf from Compusa, lemme know.  Some
           places will use linux in non-critical locations and cluster the
           shit out of it so several simultaneous failures doesn't cost
           someone their career.
           \_ A lot of banks in NY still use VAXes. Don't look to them.
              They have more money than sense. They will still spend
              millions to upgrade their IBM mainframes. Plenty of "real
              enterprises" use Linux.
              \_ The poster is defining "real enterprise" as "any enterprise
                 that doesn't use Linux".
                 \_ Nonsense.  I describe it above and again below and ask
                    for some campany names as well.  You're so cheeky but not
                    quite as clever as you'd like to believe.
                    \_ E*TRADE uses Linux on IBM hardware with an IBM
                       contract. My dad's company (large manufacturer of
                       car accessories) runs MVS on an emulator on a Linux
                       box and it (not surprisingly) was faster than the
                       old mainframe. IBM wanted $1 million for an upgrade
                       and this solution cost $100K and works great!
                       \_ Further research shows that Schwab also runs
                          Linux supported by IBM. I think IBM's support of
                          Linux is key.
                          \_ That isn't the same Linux I can buy at compusa.
                             Also, that IBM hardware and contract is the key
                             concept I've stated 3 times now: no one is going
                             to pick anything that will get them fired.  With
                             IBM on the hook to fix anything and work 24x7 on
                             it, the purchasing manager's career is safe(r).
                             If you were at a real company and chose Linux but
                             didn't have a company like IBM behind you'd be
                             a) stupid, and b) looking for a new job while the
                             company c) put out a job req for someone who
                             understand that $1m or $100k is *nothing* when
                             your entire company is on the line.
                             \_ You make no sense. Since IBM supports
                                Linux it is okay? Either the OS is capable
                                or it is not. Is your issue one of
                                support? If so, sign a contract with IBM.
                                \_ IBM won't just "sign a contract".  It has to
                                   be *their* version of unix, their install,
                                   their guys involved in the architecture and
                                   design phase, etc.  I'm just guessing here
                                   but you're not working yet, huh?
                                   \_ So, assuming you're the guy who claimed
                                      "Real enterprises don't use linux,"
                                      you've basically realized you've made
                                      yourself look like an idiot, and are now
                                      spouting ad hominem arguments in a weak
                                      attempt to save face. Real enterprises
                                      use linux. Sure, their particular
                                      distribution has to be certified, and
                                      running on certified hardware, so that
                                      someone will be willing to provide a
                                      support contract. This does not mean that
                                      the linux they run is so much different
                                      than the linux you can run.
                                \_ Here, let's use a real-life example to
                                   illustrate the point.  Ugly fat biker
                                   dude offers to give you an enema.  You
                                   reject the offer.  Hot chick in nurse
                                   uniform offers to give you an an enema.
                                   You jump at the offer.  Same enema,
                                   different person making the offer,
                                   different reaction.
                                   \_ This post wins the best motd analogy
                                      in recent memory award.
                                        -- motd enema analogy dude #1 fan
              \_ You don't seem to understand what "Enterprise level" means.
                 Do you even know what a mainframe is?  Do you have any idea
                 what a cluster of VAXen can do?  Name the Fortune 500 company
                 that is using stock Linux in a mission critical role.  No one
                 is stupid enough to put billions of dollars or lives on the
                 line by using Linux to save a few bucks.
                 \_ Well, I am not sure if google is fortune 500, but they are
                    using linux in a 'mission critical role'.
                 \_ There are two mentioned just above your post.  Let me
                    guess, they're "not using it in a mission critical role."
                    \_ I replied above.
                 \_ What's frightening is that "real enterprises" use MS
                    Windows at the enterprise level. How does that factor
                    into your argument?
                    \_ Name that Fortune 100 company and we'll discuss it.
                       \_ how about MSFT
                          \_ *laugh*  And we've seen the effect of _that_ on
                             their security, uptime, etc.  That is why RE's
                             don't care if a project costs $100k or $1m when
                             their multi-$B company is on the line.  Those
                             kinds of numbers are so trivially small they don't
                             matter.  Stop thinking small potatos.
2019/01/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:May:07 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>