Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:April:16 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2004/4/16 [Recreation/Pets] UID:13226 Activity:nil
4/16    Last night while out walking my dog I had my first ever encounter with
        a pitbull.  Idiot head teen actually let the thing off leash as I went
        by with my dog on leash.  The pitbull beelined for my dog from about
        20 yards away and attacked.  I kicked at it many many times and nailed
        it hard half a dozen times but it ignored blows hard enough to lift it
        into the air and drop it 2 feet back.  Eventually the stupid owner
        finally stepped in and grabbed it while it was trying to latch onto my
        dog.  I was about half a second away from grabbing the collar and
        gouging its eyes out with my fingers at that point.  I'm a dog person
        closely involved with dog raising and training for many years but I've
        never met a pitbull before.  After last night I now firmly believe the
        entire breed should be destroyed.  If you're considering buying or
        raising a pitbull you should know that in CA as of this year you are
        now legally responsible for the full damages your pitbull inflicts.
        If your pitbull kills or injures another dog, the monetary penalty is
        no longer the replacement street value of the victim but you can be
        sued blind for the standard array of emotional damages, loss of
        companionship, full medical bills, funeral costs and everything else.
        If you know someone with a pitbull let them know how the law works now
        and how much someone like me is going to enjoy utterly destroying
        their life when their pitbull attacks.  In my case, I was able to beat
        on it long enough to keep my dog from being physically harmed which
        was *very* lucky for everyone involved.  The other group left the park
        immediately but I expect them to return.  When they do, I'll be
        sending the cops or animal control there to pick up their dog for
        behavior testing.  When it fails and is determined to be a vicious
        dog, it will either be destroyed or at a minimum the owners will be
        required to spend thousands on fences and special locks and not be
        allowed to take their dog out in public ever again for any reason.  If
        I see that thing off leash again I'm going to kill it on the spot and
        then call the police.   Pit bull owners: fuck you.  The rest of you
        please be alert and aware when around them.  These creatures are not
        misunderstood.  You, your dog, or your child *will* be attacked if the
        dog can get to you.  [restored several times]
        \_ My dog was attacked by a psycho poodle, and had several stitches.
           Even the "nice" breeds can be mean. It's all in how they are raised.
           \_ Poodles are responsible for more bites than any other breed.
              Poodles and chows are not nice. They are mean!
        \_ get a less wussier dog , aren't dogs suppose to fight for you?
           not vice-versa
           \_ no, my dog is a pet.  if i wanted a weapon, i'd carry a weapon.
              is it now necessary for everyone to get a pitbull so we can
              safely walk our dogs without being attacked?
              \_ let me guess, you have a cocker spaniel (which is more prone
                 to biting people than pit bulls are) which provoked the attack
                 \_ I'm not the person you are responding to but I've seen two
                    pit bull attacks. Both times the pit bill suddenly bolted
                    and went straight for the neck of the dog/child in
                    question. Once was a kid, other time was a little fluffy
                    white thing. Both times the pit bull started from a
                    distance of about twenty yards or more away. I don't see
                    how these attacks were provoked.
                    BTW, I also know of a pitbull
                    that is so docile it simply hides behind it's master's legs
                    when new dogs appear. I'm not in the pit bulls=evil crowd.
                    There does seem to be something about them that requires
                    more care taken by the owner is all. One of the above
                    attacks took the pit bull owner completely by surprise.
        \_ Your post is poignant to me but you may want to do the psb thing and
           summarize with a link to an off-motd fuller text. -- ulysses
        \_ I have owned and trained dogs my whole life, and I agree with you.
           Perhaps some day they AKC will destroy the killer instincts of the
           pit bull through the same kind of breeding they've used to destroy
           the good qualities of other breeds, but the problem is a lot of pit
           bulls come from the ghetto, where they're still bred to be vicious.
           One side effect of the vicious ghetto dog phenomenon is that if
           you live in the ghetto, all the hoods will be terrified of your
           sweet, harmless border collie because they all figure it's another
           kind of pittbull.
        \_ Yikes! A close friend has a 6-yr-old female pit bull. Gracie's
           the sweetest dog I've ever encountered (during my friend's
           divorce, the only point of contention with her husband was
           over the dog), but it took *hours* of training & reinforcement
           to reign in her baser instincts. Getting a pit bull should be
           like buying a handgun, with required background checks,
           psychological testing, etc., etc., -elizp
           \_ that would be a great analogy if all handguns were required
              to run buggy AI software written by Microsoft, which are
              connected to the internet and have as a default that they
              can be fired by romote users or by the AI on its own in
              certain modes.
        \_ God, I would hate to see you robbed and beaten.  You will probably
           then call for genocide of the ... breed in question, no doubt
           invoking the 'killer instincts'. -- ilyas
           \_ You understand the difference between poor breeding and the
              problems in society, right?  A bad dog in a good home is still
              a bad dog.  Or were you just trying to be funny?  It can be hard
              to tell on the net sometimes.
              \_ Did you miss the brilliant 'my dog was attached by a pitbull
                 therefore all pitbulls must be destroyed' argument in the
                 original post?  -- ilyas
              \_ are you saying it's hard to tell funny from stupid on the
                 motd?
2004/4/16 [Uncategorized] UID:13227 Activity:nil
4/15    Well, that japenese magnet motor guy made /.
        \_ http://csua.com/?entry=13123
2004/4/16 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:13228 Activity:nil
4/16    My lynx (non-soda machine) doesn't save cookies, whats up with that?
2004/4/16-17 [Transportation/Car] UID:13229 Activity:nil
4/16    Anyone know of a good tire balancing place around south bay/SF area?
        For some reason my car is pretty sensitive to it and my steering wheel
        shakes slightly at 80+ speed. I am fairly certain it's the balace, but
        the place I went to does not seem to want to put the effort to iron
        out the last bit of imbalance. They just claim the computer says its
        balanced. the car is fine at 60mph. thanks.
        \_ Is it worse when you hit the brakes? if so, then your brake rotors
           might be warped. Also, it's more likely to be your alignment
           than your tires being balanced.
           \_ alignment can cause shake too? I just recently got an alignment
              done at the dealer.
        \_ Does the shaking stop at any point beyond 80?  I've heard of
           something like that happening with some cars, and it wasn't
           tire balance, it was something to do with an unbalanced
           driveshaft.
           \_ no, the faster i go, the more shake i got. smooth roads does help
              a bit.
        \_ It could also just be that the tires are worn unevenly.  Anyway,
           I like the service of America's Tire Co.  You can find the locations
           at http://discounttire.com.  They do free rotation and flat repairs as well.
2004/4/16-17 [Academia/Berkeley, Science/Electric] UID:13230 Activity:nil
4/16    What's the website that lets you see how full classes are? I graduated
        a few years ago but need to sign my sister up for her classes (she
        \_ RIDE BIKE!
        gave me Power of Telebears, similar to Power of Attorney).
        \_ daily - http://schedule.berkeley.edu, click the "current enrollment" to
           get realtime? from course web system
2004/4/16 [Recreation/Pets] UID:13231 Activity:nil
4/16    Tom, please stop deleting my dog post.  Thanks.
        \_ yea, I like the dog post.  please stop deleting it!
        \_ yeaH, EVEN I didn't read it, please stop deleting!
        \_ If tom really is the guy who deletes stuff, I find that interesting,
           since tom always comes down on 'anonymous cowards,' but deleting
           entries anonymously is in some sense the ultimate anonymous
           coward reply to a post. -- ilyas
2004/4/16 [Uncategorized] UID:13232 Activity:nil
4/16    Drivel is poorly formed thoughts, without context or relevance.  An
        occasional long post is just fine.  -- not the dog guy below.
        \_ Not to mention it is somewhat informative.  -jrleek
        \_ It's a good post, just long. Whoever it is deleting, just frikin'
           stop! -- ulysses
2004/4/16-17 [Uncategorized] UID:13233 Activity:nil
4/16    Any interesting Cal Day events going on tomorrow that are worth
        checking out? -- alum
        \_ Kind of speaks for itself, eh?  When you're white haired and
           dragging your wrinkled carcass around campus with your grand kids
           in tow, then you'll appreciate some of the special co-ed events
           available.  Other than that, no.   -- other alum
2004/4/16-17 [Computer/SW/Languages/Functional] UID:13234 Activity:high
4/16    So, here's a question.  I'm learning Python, and it seems to me that it
        includes a lot of the power of Scheme or Lips, with out the wierdness.
        Would Python make a better introduction to CS language than Scheme?
        \_ Dunno, why don't you just ask Ping, he taught a 61A style course
           in python at Cal.  He claims it was good.  I still haven't yet
           found a good dollar Return on Investment for the time I spent
           using scheme.  ping's URL : http://zesty.ca/bc/info.html -pst
           \_ We had a similar thread on this involving sysadmins.  If you
              want ROI on your time, get out of CS and leave it to people who
              want to be doing it.  Go do banking or something. -- ilyas
              \_ you seem to be forgetting all about systems. systems people
                 probably almost never use scheme per se, though granted,
                 competent ones probably make use of concepts/techniques from
                 the functional languages.
                 \_ Did you actually read what my objection was?  At any rate,
                    plenty of 'systems' people use functional languages, if
                    not necessarily scheme itself. -- ilyas
           using scheme. - pst
        \_ Read Norvig's essay on python.  Languages which don't understand
           lisp are forced to reimplement it, badly.  I find python a lot
           less intuitive than either lisp or scheme.  YMMV. -- ilyas
           \_ Link?  All I could find was Python for Lisp Programmers.
              \_ That's the one.  It compares python to lisp in various ways.
           \_ Link?  All I could find was Python for Lisp Programmers.
                   -- ilyas
           \_ Agreed.  What's so weird about Scheme?  There are almost no
              syntax rules in Scheme; the language is very self-consistent and
              uniform.  Python seems to have a lot of extra, unnecessary
              syntactical baggage that doesn't improve language
              expressiveness.  I also can't understand why Python has such
              crippled lambdas.  As for the original question about it being
              a better intro language than Scheme, until Abelson and Sussman
              rewrite SICP to use Python, I'd say no.
              \_ Well, yes SICP would be the problem.  But imagine we're
                 in fairy land where SICP is available for EVERY lanugage...
                 in fairy land where SICP is available for EVERY lanugage...
                 \_ python sicp: http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy - pst
        \_ There's nothing really "weird" about Lisp. I don't understand why
           people think Lisp is any "weirder" than Prolog, Eiffel, Modula-2
           or any other language. Just because it's not an ALGOG derived
           language doesn't mean it's more or less difficult to learn.
           -- williamc
           \_ Ok, I like prolog, and use it frequently, but even I admit it's
              'weird.'  It has a whole different programming paradigm all to
              itself. -- ilyas
              \_ I haven't used it much, but it seems to be a very or perversely
                 specialized kind of FP.
                 \_ Prolog is not functional programming, although you can sort
                    of think of it that way if you squint and don't look too
                    hard.  Prolog programs are statements which are true, and
                    prolog flow of control is a proof search.  I found I
                    couldn't really grasp prolog by just pretending it's scheme
                    without parens, you really need to think about statements
                    and proofs to program prolog well. -- ilyas
                    \_ You can write in FP so that all your functions return
                       boolean and the only operator you use is AND with early
                       termination.  And then adjust the eval loop so it takes
                       falsehood as failure rather than falsehood.
                       \_ ... and you still wouldn't get prolog.  You would
                          need OR, and cuts, and superlogical features of
                          prolog like setof.  And you would need to implement
                          the non-local prolog failure (which to do properly
                          requires non-trivial messing around with exceptions
                          or continuations).  Like I said, you could sort of
                          do it, but you wouldn't be a very good prolog
                          programmer.  Doing prolog properly in FP would just
                          entail implementing a prolog interpreter.
                          Look at
                 \_ python sicp: http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy - pst
                    couldn't really grasp prolog by just pretending it's scheme
                    without parens, you really need to think about statements
        \_ There's nothing really "weird" about Lisp. I don't understand why
           people think Lisp is any "weirder" than Prolog, Eiffel, Modula-2
           or any other language. Just because it's not an ALGOG derived language
           doesn't mean it's more or less difficult to learn. -- williamc
                          requires non-trivial messing around with exceptions
              stuctures is pretty odd.  As Norvig points out "Python seems to be
              easier to read than Lisp for someone with no experience in
                    and proofs to program prolog well. -- ilyas
                          http://www.bushong.net/david/comparisons/powerset.html
                          or continuations).  Like I said, you could sort of
                          do it, but you wouldn't be a very good prolog
                          programmer. -- ilyas
           \_ Oh, I don't know, the whole pair/cons/list way of building data-
                          and think about why the prolog is algorithmically so
                          different from the others. -- ilyas
           \_ Oh, I don't know, the whole pair/cons/list way of building data-
              either language."
              \_ I can agree with that. Lisp's parentheses explosion is not
                 as easy for me to read anyway. Personally I found Ruby to be
                 very easy and elegant, although the block-passing syntax
                 can get a bit odd. It has very easy-to-use classes
           \_ Ruby is closer to smalltalk than Python.
           \_ Oh, I don't know, the whole pair/cons/list way of building data-
              stuctures is pretty odd.  As Norvig points out "Python seems to be
              easier to read than Lisp for someone with no experience in
              either language."
                 and objects too, unlike scheme. Python's a bit messier but
                 has the same stuff (Python's "len()" bothers me.)
              stuctures is pretty odd.  As Norvig points out "Python seems to
              be easier to read than Lisp for someone with no experience in
              either language."
              \_ I can agree with that. Lisp's parentheses explosion is not
                 as easy for me to read anyway. Personally I found Ruby to be
                 very easy and elegant, although the block-passing syntax
                 can get a bit odd. It has very easy-to-use classes
                 and objects too, unlike scheme. Python's a bit messier but
                 has the same stuff (Python's "len()" bothers me.)
                 \_ And processing lists (which is actually very intuitive
                    for anybody who has taken introductory set theory) is
                    somehow stranger than processing
                    while (<>) { if ( $_ ~=/foo/) { s/bar/baz/}}? I don't know
                    but it took me about 30 minutes to learn scheme, whereas
                    it took me a solid week to just learn the basics of C,
                    and another month to do something useful with it.
                    \_ are you replying to the right person? I mentioned Ruby,
                       not Perl or C.
        \_ Personally, I think Smalltalk, which Python is closely based on,
           is better than both Lisp or Python. Lisp has a lot of great things
           but the problem is that there is no syntax to the language. The
           human has to be the compiler (and, when debugging, the decompiler).
           Dylan on the other hand...
           \_ Ruby is closer to smalltalk than Python.
2004/4/16-17 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:13235 Activity:nil
4/16    And the scary part is, he's the smart one:

        "If the Democratic policies had been pursued over the last two or
         three years, the kind of tax increases that both Kerry and Edwards
         have talked about, we would not have had the kind of job growth
         that we've had." -- Vice President Dick Cheney, on http://pogothemonkey.com
        \_ Yep, smarter than you apparently.
        \_ He's right; if we'd had the Kerry/Edwards tax plan, we'd've had
           less hoarding by the rich and more money in the market, meaning
           a significantly higher job growth.
           \_ Huh? Who are you replying to, and what are you trying to say?
                \_ The point is that most people know that the Bush admin is
                   the first since Hoover to lose jobs during the term.  If
                   Cheney claims that that is "job growth" it's comical.
                   \_ And like Hoover they're taking flak for an economy
                      that couldn't possiably be their fault.
                        \_ No one is talking about taking flak for an economy.
                           This is about Cheney believing that job LOSSES is
                           Job GROWTH.  It's really simple.
                      \_ They're responsible for some part of it, and the
                         policies chosen to address it. They can't dodge the
                         deficit.
                         \_ You know the great depressions depth and length
                            is largely due to FDR, right?  Also, Cheney's
                            point is that it would have been worse (if
                            approached in an FDR like fashion.)  Not
                            to meantion, the unemployment rate is pretty
                            friggin' low.
                            \_ But implying that Kerry/Edwards policy == FDR is
                               just flat false, plus referring to "job growth"
                               when jobs were lost is also false.
                               \_ I'm just saying that we've seen "tax in
                                  time of need" style econ, and it don't
                                  fly.  As for job growth, why does Cheney
                                  have to be refering to exaclty the time
                                  from when Bush took office, and not, say
                                  from the depth of the recession?
                                  \_ "tax in time of need" = red herring
                            \_ How did FDR prolong the great depression?
                      \_ "couldn't possiably [sic] be their fault" is extreme
                         and likely incorrect, with the monetary cost of the
                         Iraq war and psychological effect on the nation --
                         and with the increasingly supportable position that
                         the Iraq war was not necessary.
                         \_ Ok "couldn't possibly be their fault in a world
                            where time passes in a linear fashion."
                            \_ I'm sure you're making a point here, but I
                               don't understand what you're trying to say.
                               \_ Sorry, I'm saying: The bad economy
                                  preceeded the Iraq war, and there is no
                                  evidence to show that the economy
                                  was affected by it.
                                  \_ It goes without saying that the Iraq
                                     war had no effect on the economy before
                                     the Iraq war was started.
                                     You are saying there is no evidence
                                     to show that today's economy has been
                                     affected by the Iraq war?
                                     \_ Why do you HATE AMERICA???
2004/4/16-17 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:13236 Activity:nil
4/16    Is there a version of sort that keeps only one copy of identical lines
        on the output, or some other cmd that does that?
        \_ uniq
        \_ sort -u  -- op after reading the man page for a 3rd time.
           \_ sort -u doesn't exist on all systems.  cat foo | sort | uniq
              should be universally portable among *nix systems.
              \_ so that's why I never knew about sort -u ... -uniq poster
                 \_ yep.  IIRC it was a linux introduced bastardization.  I
                    don't see why they needed to make sort do something that
                    another ancient program already existed for as if
                    eliminating "| uniq" was such a great time saver or
                    radical improvement to the core unix utilities. -tom
                        \_ sort -u is not a linux bastardization. It has
                           has been a standard option to sort since System V
                           and BSD4.1. Steve Bourne mentions it on pgs 193,
                           194, 196 and 266 (the sort(1) man page) in "The
                           UNIX System" (1983).
                    \_ that's easy to discount. both freebsd (e.g., soda) and
                       solaris offer a sort with -u option.
                    \- Which unix version doesnt do "sort -u"? I will bet
                       you this is not a "linux bastardization" ... by which
                       I assume you mean this is a GNU sort option.
                       re: "time saver" ... the time being saved isnt the
                       time to type "|uniq" but the run time. Have you
                       done any system programming? Why dont you time the
                       difference between the two on a large data file with
                       some repeats. Gee why does wc have the -l option?
                       That is so misleading. Is it so hard to do
                       grep -n ^ file | sed '$!d' | cut -f1 -d: ? --psb
                       \_ If I cared about runtimes I wouldn't be using the
                          default system utilities.  Yes, I meant GNU since
                          sort is obviously not part of the kernel, which we
                          both know.
                          \- What would you use if you cared about runtimes?
                             You can write a faster grep? GNU != linux so
                             calling it a linux bastardization is 1. stupid
                             2. wrong. --psb
2004/4/16-17 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:13237 Activity:nil
4/16    Anyone use 'Speak Freely'.  For Unix or Windows?  What was your
        experience like?
2004/4/16-17 [ERROR, uid:13238, category id '18005#2.31432' has no name! , ] UID:13238 Activity:high
4/16    So the Air America "bounced check" story turned out be a load of crap.
        Drudge is now 0 for 2.  Wasn't someone claiming he was "usually right?"
        \_ Load of crap?  URL?  My local communist newspaper has yet to declare
           anything but the original AP/Reuters story Drudge linked to.  Air
           America bounced a check.  Where's the update that says otherwise?
           \_ http://csua.org/u/6xs (Chicago Tribune article, requires free
              registration)
              \_ Yes and they're still off the air in LA because they bounced
                 the LA check for $1m.  Thanks for the URL backing my point.
                 \_ Thanks for not reading the article very closely.
                    Multicultural pulled the station for unknown reasons.
                    The "bounced check" story fell apart under the scrutiny
                    of the court in Chicago, which is why they were ordered
                    back on the air there, and it surely will be in Los
                    Angeles.
        \_ He quoted someone, the quote was accurate and he attributed it;
           so what's wrong with that?
           \_ He should have followed up, of course.
              \_ Very, very early on he had a link to Air America's web site,
                 where they presented their side of the story.
           \_ I never lie.  I always quote someone else who does.
           \_ How's that Intern story working out for you guys?
        \_ You do realize that you're not necessarily looking at a
           representative sample, right?
        \_I think someone claimed he had only been wrong once, ever.
        \_ Rush Limbaugh repeated the lie:
           http://csua.org/u/6xl
2004/4/16-17 [Recreation/Humor] UID:13239 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto
4/16    Please god make it stop:
        http://members.chello.nl/rwestdorp/fun/soundrecorder.swf
        \_ That's incredible.  I will kill you now.
2004/4/16-17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:13240 Activity:nil
4/16    Time To Give Ritter His Due:
        http://csua.org/u/6xn
        \_ send the twink to Syria and find the WMD
        \_ I'm can't find any relevant mention of Ritter on the page but I
           enjoyed the message board.  Thanks.
           \_ Hackworth gives the most honest assessment of the Iraq
              situation from the "grunts" point of view that I have
              been able to find.
              \_ honest assessment?  How would *you* know?  Have you been there
                 to compare and evaluate or does "honest" really mean "the guy
                 who most agrees with my axe grinding opinion"?  This clown
                 says we should put Ritter, a known liar and bribe taker, on
                 the WMD probe in Iraq because we can count on Ritter to tell
                 us the truth.  Yes, this makes a lot of sense in some
                 universe.
                 \_ At LEAST you could have said Ritter was a known sex
                    pervert.  But you just had to use labels ("liar",
                    \-prevert
                    "bribe taker") that are not well known at all, if true.
                    Sounds like a right-wing radical to me!
                    \_ Go do your own searching for how Ritter made $300k
                       direct from Saddam's pocket.  Your ignorance is not my
                       problem, it's yours.
                       \_ Even supposing this is true (and I'm not convinced
                          by far) if misses one key bit.  RITTER TOLD THE
                          TRUTH.  See how that works?
                          \_ No.  There's a subtle but important distinction
                             between the truth and what Ritter said.  Ritter
                             said what he was told to say which changed
                             substantially between the last time he was on the
                             ground in Iraq and when he got $300k in bribes.
                             The truth is something that doesn't change based
                             on income.  See how that works?  The information
                             is easily available.  I'm not going to spoon feed
                             you things that you can find in seconds that have
                             been discussed at length on the motd before.
                             Ritter has zero credibility.  There are plenty of
                             others you could choose from that are actually
                             honest, not paid off, and consistent in their
                             words; Ritter is not one of them.  He's a fool and
                             a Hussein pawn at best and a traitor and criminal
                             at worst.  Find a new hero.
                             \_ whatever his motives, his statement that Iraq
                                was not a threat to the US has proven to be
                                true.  Well, at least it would have been true
                                if we didn't go over there like we wanted to
                                remake "Blackhawk Down" and get ourselves
                                involved in local politics we don't understand.
                                \_ His statement?  Which statement?  The one
                                   before or after he got bribed by Hussein?
                                   It's almost sad how you completely miss and
                                   seem to intentionally ignored this key
                                   point.  Ritter is on record with multiple
                                   statements regarding Iraqi WMD.  That's a
                                   fact.  He was paid ~$300k by Hussein after
                                   he left Iraq: fact.  His statements
                                   regarding Iraqi WMD changed after he was
                                   paid off: fact.  You need to find a new
                                   hero.  There are many honorable men and
                                   women, both foreign and domestic who agree
                                   with your agenda who have impeccable
                                   reputations and whom I and others hold in
                                   the highest regard.  Ritter is not nor ever
                                   will be one of those.  Your feeble attempt
                                   to change the subject to anti-Bush rantings
                                   about his cowboy approach to the world are
                                   irrelevent and ignored.
2004/4/16-17 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus] UID:13241 Activity:nil
4/16    What C++ programs out there (with source code freely available) do you
        guys think are particularly well-written, elegant, etc.? That is, what
        would you read to improve your understanding of what constitutes good
        C++ code? Thanks.
        \_ Anything not written by M$.
        \_ LEDA
           \_ the source doesn't seem to be freely available for that one.
              at least, not if those hoops i see over there are for jumping
              through.
2017/11/18 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/18   
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:April:16 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>