4/7     Unfortunate URL of the year award:
        http://www.powergenitalia.com   -John
        \_ Nice. -- ulysses

4/6     How to select entries x to y in SELECT in mysql? I don't want to
        get a whole list and then do a @list[x..y] which is inefficient.
        ok thx.
        \_ moron
        \_ I think you are looking for LIMIT and OFFSET.
        \_ does select() always return things in the same order?  are you
           ORDER BY'ing something?
        \_ all of the above- you need ORDER BY, LIMIT, OFFSET, and probably
                DISTINCT                        -brain

4/6     Hold on to your porn, boys, the gubmint is after it:
        http://csua.org/u/6sk
        \_ Is the fbi still run by repressed gays?
           \_ Did you stop raping your dog yet?
              \_ Are you still Ann Coulter's bitch?
                 \_ Your penis is so LARGE and TAX-FREE!
                    \_ W00t!
                 \_ Yes?
                 \_ Better Ann's bitch than, oh say, Molly Ivins.  Yech!
           \_ Well, it's run by John Ashcroft, so draw your own conclusions.
              \_ Ashcroft is a closet human [restored, fuck censorship!]
                 \_ Ashcroft does not dance for religous reasons.
                    \_ Let's hate the quakers too for the same reason.
                       \_ You don't know many quakers, do you.
                        \_ historically, although the Quakers are pacifists,
                           they have bankrolled some of the most anti-social
                           efforts in American history!
                           \_ urlP
                 \_ Q: Why is Ashcroft against premarital sex?
                    A: Could lead to dancing.

4/6     Has anyone been able to get the "certificates" auth stuff working
        for localhost connections to the admin web ui of CUPS? I would
        appreciate a pointer to sample config with this working (or instr.
        on how to do it). tia.

4/7     Are there any studies correlating political belifs?  ie, If
        a person believes gay marriage should be illegal, how likely
        are they to also believe that vouchers are a good idea?
        \_ how about this.  poll:
        \_ Perhaps rather than studying correlations, it would be better to
           try to figure out what things cause what beliefs.  Correlations
           are boring and uninformative, it's causes people want. -- ilyas
           \_ Well, interesting and useful are two different things.
              People have been studing causes for a long time, it's very
              difficult to pin down.  On the other hand, correlation
              just takes a very large detailed survey.  Also, I think it
              would be very interesting.  We tend to make Politics black
              and white, one or the other,  Republican or Democrat.  In
              reality things are much more complicated, and I'd like
              to see some of the real patterns, not jsut what you can get
              most people to buy.
              \_ Read a book called 'Causality.' -- ilyas
           sysadmin, right of center:
           sysadmin, left of center:
           engineer, right of center:
           engineer, left of center:
           scientist, right of center:
           scientist, left of center: .
           scientist, conservative libertarian: .
        \_ Out of curiousity, why do you care? -- ilyas
        \_ Republican = evil reactionary corporate oppressors.
           Democrat = good progressive heroes of the people.
        \_ I support vouchers for gays to marry
           \_ I support a constitutional amendmant banning gay schools.

4/7     Is there a convenient way to get WHOIS information stripped of all the
        disclaimers and legalese?
        \_ perl.
           \_ Of course there are programming ways of doing it, but is there
              anything easy like a website or a flag or some alternate whois
              client?
        \_ grep

4/7     War President:
        http://www.danielsh.com/warpres/warpresSMALL.gif
        http://www.danielsh.com/warpres/warpresBIG.jpg
        \_ the fact that there are duplicate photos seems to diminish the point
           a bit
        \_ Ooh!  Can you do the same thing with the 9/11 families?
           \_ it hasn't been proven yet that 9/11 was Bush's fault.

4/7     link:csua.org/u/6sp
        Washington Post's Faces of the Fallen (flash required).

4/7     Why are girls attracted to idiots like William Hung?
        \_ Somebody's gotta fuck all you ugly sodans.
           \_ nice troll, but hung's civ eng
           \_ Remeber the Caltech womens' motto:
              "The odds are good, but the goods are odd."
              \_ This quote is from the PhD comic (originating at Stanford,
                 I think).
                 \_ This has been a saying at CalTech since at least
                    the early eighties. -ausman
        \_ Because he's genuine and not an overt asshole.
           \_ But those stupid bitches ALWAYS go for overt assholes, not NICE
              guys like ME!
              \_ I am sure this is a troll, but in any case, women don't
                 go for wussified "nice guys." They don't really go for
                 assholes, it just seems that way to you. They go for
                 confident, entertaining guys, some of whom are assholes.
                 \_ No shit sherlock.  That last post was troll/motd satire.
                    Ah well.  --evil troll
                 \_ Actually, no.  When I was in school it was always easier
                    to nail a chick if I treated her like crap.  The worse
                    I treated her the more slavish she behaved.  Treating
                    a college girl well but showing confidence in myself
                    (not being the pussified wimp) worked ok but required
                    more effort for less gain.
                    \_ Actually it's a little more complicated.  Most girls
                       can't distinguish between confident and asshole.  They
                       look similar to the untrained eye.  So many girls go
                       for confident and get asshole instead.
        \_ Well, chicks are attracted to money, fame, and power (and hunks).
           Hung at least has some fame and a bit of money. And he's not butt
           ugly. Do the math. (btw how good looking are these chicks?)
           \_ He's not butt ugly?  He's one of the ugliest motherfuckers
              walking the planet.  Sheesh.  Send me to your universe and
              I'd be Adonis.
              \_ Actually I didn't remember what he looked like. Google
                 shows me I was wrong. Well, he's not hideously ugly so much
                 as he sometimes looks vaguely retarded, like a down's kid.
                 But generally he's not that bad:
                 http://www.williamhung.net/viewphoto.cfm?d=Gallery&p=9
                 \_ Look at the rest of them. He is reasonably good looking,
                    especially when he smiles. He no Rock Hudson, but who is?
        \_ my old colleague looks kind of like william hung.  he hails
           from hk too.  real person has even better resemblance than
           photos here.
           http://www.pakhui.com

4/7     How does an ugly droopy dog faced guy like Kerry get all these
        women?  http://www.kingpublishing.com/fc/white_house/story2.htm
        \_ In America, first you get the money, then you get the power, then
           you get the women. -- Tony Montoya
           \_ First you get the sugar.
        \_ cuz democrats are sluts and have poor taste
           \_ BUt Kerry's current wife was a Republican until he
              started running for the Oval Office.
           \_ why republicans always gots to be playa hatin'?
              \_ Its not the Republicans, its all the Libertarians on soda
                 that never get any play.
        \_ I can't reach the site, but here's the google cached
           version: link:csua.org/u/6so  It's not related to your
           question at all.
           \_ My link is directly related to my question.  What are you
              talking about?  --op

4/7     Is there a recent precedent for the use of "civilian contractors" /
        "mercenaries" in combat situations?  The recent murders/mutilations
        were terrible, but I'm wondering about the use of CC/Ms to protect
        government agencies in a warzone-- what sort of accountability does
        this Blackwater company have if one of their guards guns down a
        kid?
        \_ These "civilian contractors" are ex-marines / navy-seals who is
           hired to protect food convoy.  They are not "civilians" (which
           implied they are defenceless and without arms).  These incident
           can be treated as US soldiers being killed.  Both USA and Britian
           are toying around with mercenaries because casualty of mercenaries
           are not as politically sensitive as regular soldiers.  Further
           when mercenaries commit war crime and all, government can just
           wave their hand and say "it ain't us."
        \_ Recent precedant?  I don't know.  Google "hessian mercenaries"
           \_ let's say post-1950, post-Geneva convention, etc.
        \_ My great-grandfather was a mercenary in WWI, and in a few
           american scuffles prior to that.
        \_ US or any country?
           \_ Doesn't matter.  Let me be more inflammatory: How do you feel
              about an Enron or Worldcom that employs well-trained paramilitary
              types and is contracted to work for the government?  Or:
              Imagine the Bush invading countryX using an entirely mercenary
              force, and blaming the outcome on a lack of "corporate synergy".
              \_ w00t!
        \_ How about the French Foreign Legion?
           \_ they are *NOT* mercenaries.  They are effectively French Arm
              and forces.
        \_ The United States used hundreds of mercenaries/contractors in
           Columbia in the late 90s. I know 20 of them died in 1998 alone.
           http://www.colombiajournal.org/colombia52.htm
        \_ The Pope is guarded by Swiss Guards which are mercenaries.  There
           hasn't been combat situations in recent history though.

4/7     Does anyone know of a good website that has small icons/images
        of individual countries? I don't want any text to be on the
        image (no country/city names, etc). Thanks.
        \_ Outline maps?  Or flags?
                \_ Outline maps (definitely no flags) -op
        \_ If you could get a world political map, you could run it through a
           sharpen filter and then use a "smart select" tool to select an
           individual country.
           sharpen(x) = x - smooth(x)
        \_ http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference_maps/pdf/political_world.pdf
n       \_ http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference_maps/pdf/political_world.pdf
           See if you can substitute the fonts with invisible ones in Acrobat.
           I don't know how.  --- yuen
        \_ may be you are looking for GIS maps.

4/7     From the Riverbend site:
        " And now Muqtada Al-Sadr's people are also fighting it out in
        parts of Baghdad and the south. If the situation weren't so
        frightening, it would almost be amusing to see Al-Hakeem and
        Bahr Ul Iloom describe Al-Sadr as an 'extremist' and a 'threat'.
        Muqtada Al-Sadr is no better and no worse than several extremists
        we have sitting on the Governing Council. He's just as willing
        to ingratiate himself to Bremer as Al-Hakeem and Bahr Ul Iloom.
        The only difference is that he wasn't given the opportunity, so
        now he's a revolutionary[...]And as I blog this, all the mosques,
        Sunni and Shi'a alike, are calling for Jihad..."
        \_ Right, so if you don't have power, you pick up guns and try to
           get it with blood and lead?  That's not extremist at all...
           \_ And the provisional government is democratic and respects the
              will of the people, right?
           \_ I think OP is pointing out the pot/kettle dichotomy.
              \_ I think the phrase "pot calling the kettle black" is an
                 example of hypocrisy, not dichotomy.

4/7     Marine officials here continued to broadly describe their opponents
        as "anti-coalition forces" including a mix of Islamic extremists,
        followers of former president Saddam Hussein and criminals, along
        with a few foreign fighters. But several translators for the
        Marines, who meet with local residents and question detainees,
        offered a slightly different description. "A lot of Iraqis hate us.
        They believe we are invaders who will take away their country," said
        one translator, Fahim Salim. In Fallujah, he said, some enemy
        fighters are Sunni Muslims who fear the U.S. occupation will bring
        Shiite Muslims to power, while others are former soldiers, with
        expert training and access to weapons, who are now jobless and
        desperate. -Washington Post (today)
        \_ yeah, it's the economy stupid!
           \_ But if everyone has access to weapons, why is there still
              violence??  The NRA and the "real" conservatives have stated
              that an armed societ will be crime free!  It's that simple!

4/7     I have very little experience with tape backups.  I have to grab data
        off of tapes that are of unknown format.  Is there an easy way to
        identify what format the data are saved in?  This will be done on a
        linux box.
        \_ dd if=/dev/nstX of=tmp bs=2048k count=1
           file tmp (or whatever you call the file)
           This will recognize at least tar and dump formats not sure
           about networker/netbackup/other comercial apps.
           \_ Awesome.  Thanks.
           \_ that won't "recognize" anything at all; it will copy the
              raw data off the tape, transferring the problem from "what format
              is this tape in?" to "what format is this file in?"
              \_ % file tmp

4/7     Free Credit Report
        http://www.consumerinfo.com
        I know someone was asking about this a few days ago.
        \_ is it true that requesting one of these reflects poorly on
           your credit?
           \_ request your credit report twice and find out.

4/7     It's about the oil
        link:csua.org/u/6ss (archives.gov, executive order 13303)
        \_ So if someone brings a suit against the Coalition Provisional
           Authority for misapporpriation and sale of Iraqi oil, any judgement
           made would be null and void?  Am I reading this correctly?  I have
           serious doubts that this would stand up in court.  It sounds like
           legislation through executive order.
           \_ Or if anyone brings suit against any contractor there, it will
              also be null and void.
        \_ ... remember when they were honest and called it
           Operation
           Iraqi
           Liberation

4/7     http://www.craigslist.org/nby/rnr/28271552.html  (not work-safe)
        \_ I'm speechless...just...speechless.
        \_ Care to give a little description, since many people dare not browse
           it now?
           \_ Hot Orc Sex  (lotr fanfic)
           \_ And it's text.  if you've got someone looking that closely
              over your shoulder at work, you've got other problems.

4/7     Does it make sense to do both the Writ of Execution and Court
        Order of Examination Debtor? I'm asking because Write of Execution,
        wage garnishment only takes out 25% of the paycheck per month, and
        given the defendants' job is very flexible, he may very well quit
        his job and find something else. So should I do both or just do
        Writ of Execution and hope for the best? Thanks.
        \_ I think it's safe to say that you might be the reigning champion
           of DoItYourSelfLawyering... I'd rather hear more about how this
           dude hit you, what sort of damages you're seeking, funny anecdotes
           about pumping a bus driver for money.  Did he hit you with his bus?
           That would be kinda funny.  If you entertain us, we're more likely
           to do your google legwork for you.
                \_ yes. many bus drivers are child molesters and wife beaters
                   this bastard evaded me for a very long time till my
                   private investigator tracked him down. now he owes me
                   the original amount, money I paid to the PI, processing
                   fee, AND interest. I want to see him go down!!!
                   \_ more!
        \_ I think it is obvious that you know more about this stuff
           than anyone else reading the motd.
        \_ Yes!

4/7     http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/international/middleeast/08SHIA.html
        Both Sunni and Shiite insurgecies broadbased.  Those ungrateful
        people.  Let's just get out and let them kill one another.
        \_ but then we don't get to take their oil!
           \_ duh, if it was about oil then invading was the most stupid thing
              we possibly could have done.  the smart thing would have been
              to let Hussein keep Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and continue buying
              oil from him without all the messy wars and sanctions and
              inspections in between.  it has little to do with oil.  it has
              everything to do with restructuring the cold war world into the
              post cold war era.  this is all about power, not energy.
                \_ Sorry, that wouldn't have been smart.  Having a syphilitic
                   dictator in charge of that much oil would have been dumb.
                   He might decide he wanted more money, and with that much
                   of the supply, he could ensure he got it.  Also, with
                   that much wealth, he could develop nukes.  Look at how much
                   fun North Korea is.  And they're not even rich.
                   \_ Yeah, except for all of the UN people running around
                      trying to expose non-existant weapons, and the oil
                      fields trashed from 10+ years of no spare parts. And the
                      internally corrupted sycophants who drained Hussein of
                      money while producing very little.
                   \_ Oh so you think the way it's gone was so much better for
                      the oil industry and everyone else?  Riiiiight.
        \_ Build fence, throw in guns.  -John
           \_ they've already got plenty of guns.
              \_ Fantastic.  More money for fencing.  -John
                 \_ Israel agrees. Fences stop everything.
                    \_ Hey, the idea is good.  Building it through Abdul the
                       apple farmer's backyard so as not to spoil some
                       religious fanatic's view is another question.  -John
                       \_ So you intend to fence in what? All of Iraq?
                          \_ All of Israel and the occupied territories. We'll
                             check back in in about ten years.
                    \_ you really should talk to CHINESE about fenses.  Our
                       fences was thousands of miles in length and it didn't
                       really didn't do much good.
        \_ I read the article; wow, it sounds bad now.  Most other major
           newspapers will have stories tomorrow echoing this thesis, well,
           except Fox News.
           \_ It's the NYT.  Of course the rest of the media will echo the
              story.  I sure love having a single news room creating the news.
              Thankfully the NYT is no longer the mouth-of-god-to-the-public's-
              ear that it used to be.
        \_ The question is, how do we make sure us last longer than they
           do.  For answer, see below.
           \_ "Try the Extended Pleasure condoms by Trojan?" I guess that's
              one way to work them over, but while Marines might be use to
              sodomy those Army guys will need some teaching.
        \_ Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
           \_ Odd, the September 11th terrorists thought the same way.

4/7     What's the best way to keep your passport safely when travelling
        abroad? Does anyone have good or bad experiences with those slim
        pouches that wrap around your waist/stomach/chest?
        \_ I kept my passport in a slim waist pouch inside my pants during a
           two week trip to rural China. It wasn't really that uncomfortable.
           As a safety precaution, make sure you have a photocopy of it
           kept somewhere else in your bags.
        \_ I keep mine in my front pants pocket.  Don't need no steenkin'
           waist or under-the-shirt pouch.
        \_ Good tip is to make 2 photocopies of main passport page and all
           pages with relevant visas or extensions.  Keep one in your bag,
           the other in your wallet.  I just keep my passport in an inside
           jacket pocket "fo' e-z access".  -John
        \_ Don't put anything important on some object that hangs outside your
           body screaming, "stupid naive tourist".

4/7     I'm looking for a new suit. If I happen to be in Italy, would it
        be cheaper to find an Italian suit there or is it not worth my
        while?
        \_ It would, depending on where you are.  Milan can be frighteningly
           expensive.  Also, you won't save a great deal on real big
           designer brands, but there are a lot of smaller tailors in side
           streets that can be worth your while.  Also, be aware of your
           type of build--if you're tall and slim, Italian suits may not be
           for you (they're pretty boxy.)  In Italy, I'd rather look out for
           \_ American suits are boxy.  Italian suits are more tapered and
              appropriate for slimmer people.
           nice leather goods (gloves, shoes, etc.)  If you specify where
           you're going, I might be able to give you some pointers.  -John
           \_ I'm not the OP, but I'm going to be in Florence and Rome.
              Anything in particular to look out for? (Shoes, maybe?)
                -chialea
              \_ Have you considered going to smaller cities like Cinqua Terra,
                 Sienna, Padova, etc? Rome is kinda like LA... it's a huge
                 city with lots of stuff going on and lots of touristy stuff
                 as well. Except that people walk in Rome... and while walking,
                 you might pass by some 2000 year old statues.

                 Florence is pretty famous for leather (shoes, belts, etc).
                 Try to avoid going in July. It's hot and filled with stupid
                 Germans and Americans. Before June 15 or after Sept 1 would
                 be good. Going in mid-August is not so bad, but everyone seems
                 to be on vacation during that time.
              \_ Shoes, gloves, whatnot.  In Rome all the expensive designer
                 stuff is around the Spanish Steps/Via Condotti and Via Veneto
                 (but there are a lot of great stores on side streets.)
                 Loads of cool little shops around Campo dei Fiori/Via del
                 Corso.  In Florence, anything away from the big museums
                 is decent shopping, and in both cities, do all the big
                 touristy things (Coliseum, Vatican museum, Uffizi, etc.) as
                 they're worthwhile.  Drop me a mail if interested and I can
                 look up some stuff--Rome is awesome.  If you're looking for
                 anything in particular, it's a PITA, so just knock around,
                 you will find a lot of nice things.  -John
              \_ A friend took my wife to http://csua.org/u/6tj outside of
                 Rome, where she found bountiful shopping.
                 \_ Can I take your wife, too?
                    \_ you probably can't afford her.
              \_ Lingerie. France and Italy have the best lingerie and
                 much of it never makes it into this country. The only
                 place I can find real silk stockings is in France, for
                 example. (I order by e-mail now.) My gf loves the fancy
                 lingerie and it is much cheaper than going to La Perla here.

4/7     Cool (furniture related) designs: http://mocoloco.com

4/7     This thought just occured to me and it's making me really depressed.
        As ugly as William Hung is, he's probably screwing a new chick
        every day. That is depressing.
        \_ He just said girls were friendlier to him.
        \_ http://csua.org/u/6t4?mercurynews.com
           \_ all right, I was wrong.  They apparently are a lot "friendlier".
              \_ Dude! She interviewed the UCD prof who made an Asian-American
                 porn film!  That's so awesome!  I thought his 15 minutes were
                 up after his spot on the Daily Show.
           \_ Civ Engs have to take classes like Psychology?
        \_ More depressing is that this is your outlook on life.
        \_ Why would this depress you?  You're at Cal.  There's about 15,000
           chicks out there.  You don't need more than 1 or 2 at a time.
        \_ No need to playa hate. Just congratulate.
        \_ That's the rock-n-roll lifestyle.

4/7     I own some property out in the country.  I would like to build a small
        but safe outdoor gun range (pistols, low powered rifles) as cheaply as
        possible, but I have no idea how to go about this.  Can anyone offer
        any serious advice or refer me to a source where I can figure out how
        to start?  TIA.
        \_ huh? we shoot out in the open at chipmonks, rocks cans,
        \_ get fence.  put tin cans on fence.  shoot tin cans.  get neighbor
           to restock fence while you continue shooting.
           \_ During the summer, that's a potential fire hazard.  Also, bullets
              have this tendency to keep on going, so this solution is, well,
              kind of stupid.  If this was what I was looking for, I wouldn't
              be asking for help.  Thanks for the suggestion, I think.
              \_ Fires?  Fresh farm land.  Bullets and physics?  Fewer
                 neighbors = more quiet.  You don't belong out in the country.
                 Stay in the city.
       \_ My uncle has an indoor range in his basement, but you could
          use the same concept ... he just had a big mound of dirt behind
          the target.  Outdoors you might have to occasionally do some
          maintenance to keep the mound high, but it works.  No richochets
          or bullets flying through walls or anything.

4/7     Anyone hiring interns this summer? A former student of mine goes to CMU
        and is looking for a summer internship. willing to do either coding
        (C/C++, can do java) or sysadmin (solaris/linux). He's smart but only
         a freshman.

I'm George Bush, and I approved this message.
        \_ you realize that employers prefer a dumb/experienced guy over a
           smart/inexperienced guy right?
           \_ actually, that's the lie we feed you to soften the blow
              when we really think you're dumb and inexperienced.

4/7     How do I make sure I last longer than she does?
        \_ Just get some Viagra or Cialis.  See http://www.rx-mex.com
           Doesn't matter if you come, you'll still be hard.  If you
           really don't want to come, try the extended pleasure condoms
           as the poster below mentions.  It contains a topical anestetic
           that will numb your penis.  And if you find you get too tired
           before she comes, like if she takes an hour or more, start
           working out or invest in some coke.  -sky
        \_ Use your finger instead.
        \_ Think about Barry Bonds' baseball stats  while you are doing it.
           \_ so how long does masters last once they start drilling?
              \_ I know on porn they seem to last forever... ;)
                 \_ its all drugs.
        \_ condoms can help that by killing the feeling, which sucks tho.
           one thing is, the second time around you probably last longer.
           also, getting her closer to start with would help. also try
           getting a larger penis.
           \_ Right!  The less pleasure you feel, the better you are doing.
           \_ Foreplay is your friend.  Toys are a good thing.  Try the
              mini-vibes at http://www.goodvibes.com
        \_ No one can satisfy yermom
        \_ Whack off before your date.
           \_ make sure to save a bit for styling her hair...
        \_ Try the Extended Pleasure condoms by Trojan.  Don't know if it
           really works though.
        \_ Why do you care?
           \_ You rock!  Thanks motd!  You always have the best answers!
        \_ Make sure to constantly switch to various positions.  I've gone
           hours this way.
        \_ Why should i give away my sexual secrets to you?

4/7     What startup script or configuration file can be modified to set
        the ip address of a unix (actually Mac OS X) box to a particular
        value?  This is an emergency.  Thanks a lot in advance!
        \_ you can try running ifconfig or ipconfig *after* startup.
           http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20020415091242448
           \_ Tnx.  But is there a way to directly set the manual ip addr
              by modifying a file?  My PB has some hardware problem so that
              I cannot login from the console though it boots up normally.
              I am trying to fix its IP in FW target mode and then ssh it
              in normal mode.  Right now I don't know its ip addr.  Oh wait,
              maybe I just found the file, though its a messy xml file.
              \_ Well, if you can access your file via FW target mode,
                 you don't really need ssh. But if you do and you have
                 sshd and DHCP running, you could always just do a
                 broadcast ping on its subnet and ssh into the IP addr
                 that responds to it.
              \_ why don't you boot into single-user mode?
                 cmd-s during startup.
                 \_ cmd key no longer works.  Anyway, here is an easy
                    question.  With two computer connected together by
                    an ether cable (autosensing ports), what do I have
                    to put down as the router address for the two?
                    Can I leave it blank as there is no need ro one?
                    \_ yes. other solutions: use a USB keyboard,
                       or broadcast ping from the other computer to
                       discover the 169.254.x.x private IP on the Mac.
                       \_ I can now ping the bad PB, but can't ssh to it
                          even though I set hostconfig corectly (it's 10.2.8).
                          What's wrong?  Guess I am giving up and buying
                          an apple pro keyboard.

4/6     "My prediction: Bush will win California."
        http://csua.org/u/6sh