Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:April:02 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2004/4/2-4 [Computer/SW/Editors/Emacs] UID:12982 Activity:moderate
4/2     problem with emacs. After I use it for a while (2-3 hours), the
        indentation went from 4 (default that I set and prefer) to 2.
        I have no idea why this is happening. Can someone tell me how
        to fix it? I tried M-x load-file .emacs but indentation sticks at
        2. Thanks.
        \_ this question was answered already. search the archives.
        \_ (setq-default c-basic-offset 4)  At least, that's what's in
           the archives.
        \_ So the following works for c, but somehow doesn't work for
           java, anyone know why?
                (setq         indent-level 2)
                (setq         c-indent-level 2)
                (setq         c-basic-indent 2)
                (setq         c-basic-offset 2)   ; this works!
                (setq-default c-basic-offset 2)   ; this works!
                ; none of the followings work!
                (setq         java-indent-level 4)
                (setq         java-basic-indent 4)
                (setq         java-basic-offset 4)
                (setq-default java-basic-offset 4)
           \_ maybe because there isn't a java-basic-offset variable, duh.
              java-mode is just a part of cc-mode.
                \_ so, in another word, emacs only allows 1 indentation
                   for all the modes?
                   \_ of course not. it just uses that sort of naming
                      convention. do 'info ccmode' and look at the section
                      on hooks.
        \_ USE PENCIL!
           \_ HUG TREE!
              \_ LIGHT CANDLE!
                 \_ CURSE THE GLARE!
                    \_ that's "CURSE GLARE!"
                       \_ AVOID PRONOUNS!
                          \_ LOOKUP "ARTICLE"!
                 \_ can you guys FUCK OFF!
                    \_ USE LINUX!
                    \_ CONTROL ANGER!!!!!
                       \_ ESCHEW !!!! !
        \_ (setq-default c-basic-offset 4)
        \_ Use M-x view-lossage to check what keystrokes you recently pressed.
           Maybe you changed the setting by mistake yourself.
2004/4/2 [Computer/SW] UID:12983 Activity:nil
4/2     outsourced code from india sucks, instead of bugs I have
        freakin Cobras in the code i get from these twinks
2004/4/2 [Computer/SW/Security] UID:12984 Activity:nil
4/2     "leading software companies' including Microsoft and Computer
        Associates and industry organisations such as the BSA, has asked
        the Department of Homeland Security to regulate what they call
        'Cyber Security'"  What will be the impact of this?
        http://www.forbes.com/business/newswire/2004/04/01/rtr1320997.html
        \_ I'm guessing they want to shut down the people announcing all the
           donkey sized security holes in their products so they stop looking
           so stupid.
2004/4/2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12985 Activity:high
4/2     WMD in Iraq.  Maybe, maybe not.
        http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3453
        \_ how many times have we heard a variation of this argument?
           \_ And you're still not listening?
              \_ Ever heard "The Neocon Who Cried WMD"?
        \_ This guy is being deliberately disingenuous: "Ricin and botulinum
           toxin have already been found in sufficient quantities to
           regenerate a biological weapon (BW) capability in short order."
           The BT found was not a precursor to weapon quality BT and the
           statement on ricin is simply bizarre, since it is created from
           castor beans. As an NBC expert, he knows better too.
2004/4/2 [Uncategorized] UID:12986 Activity:high
4/2     Has Sun surrendered to M$?
        \_ They got $2b and they agreed to swap IP.  That's not so bad.
           \_ Sun will collaborate with M$ instead of competing with it.
              \_ Shame on Sun.
                 \_ They need the money...
              \_ Collaborators!  Kill them in the streets!
2004/4/2 [Politics/Domestic/California, ERROR, uid:12987, category id '18005#6.97536' has no name! , ] UID:12987 Activity:very high
4/2     4 more years.  Like the man said, It's the economy, stupid".
        http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/63342|top|04-02-2004::10:05|reuters.html
        http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=71000001&refer=us&sid=a.1MWgSskH6M
        \_ budget deficit, trade deficit.  Do the math kiddo; if you are
           making less than $200k a year or do not own your own business,
           and you still vote republican, you are a big-ass sucker
           \_ uhm, yeah, tossing out 2 word phrases like that makes a really
              strong point. uhm, whatever.  if you've got something to say, go
              ahead, people will read it.
              \_ i drive a j- car and use j- appliances and electronics.
                 blame me for the trade deficit.
                 \_ I blame American manufacturers for trying to sell less
                    reliable, less efficient products for more money.  I'd
                    pay a premium to buy American if the quality was better
                    than the Japanese stuff.
        \_ 300,000 part time jobs. Yawn.
           \_ spoken like a college student or someone with a job.
              \_ Have you worked out how much money you can make working a
                 min. wage part-time job?  It's not enough to pay your rent
                 and eat.
                 \_ Have you lived outside the expensive SF Bay Area?  Yes, it
                    is not only enough to pay rent and eat but some raise kids
                    on it as well with some assistance.  Get out of your
                    bubble.
                    \_ Have you tried doing the math?  $5.15/hour is a little
                       over $10k a year, full time.  Let's assume you paid
                       no taxes.  $200/mo for a small one bedroom in a shithole
                       takes out $2400.  $5/day for food is 1800.  A car pay-
                       ment, say $150/month and insurance at (really bare bones)
                       $50/month is another $2400.  Better hope absolutely
                       nothing ever goes wrong.
                        \_ divide by 2 for part time.
                           \_ That's sorta the point.
                    \_ "with some assistance"  Yeah.  Better hope you or
                        your kids don't get sick.
                        \_ why not? who says they pay their medical bills?
                         and they don't have to either. every tax payer has
                        been paying for them.
                        \_ Every taxpayer has benefited from lower prices made
                           possible by paying people minimum wage.  Or do you
                           not consume goods and services?
        \_ They'll need those extra part-time jobs to make up for the loss of
           all these mowing jobs:
           http://csua.org/u/6qa (Wired)
        \_ This number is bunk:
           http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t05.htm
           There are only 150,000 more on the payroll than there were
           in January. I think they adjusted the Feb numbers down so
           that this month would look good. We are only creating 60,000
           or so jobs/month in the rolling average.
2004/4/2-3 [Finance/CC] UID:12988 Activity:nil
4/2     What is your favorite rewards credit card?
        \_ the debt-free fuck-the-evil-credit-card-company card.
        \_ Rewards?  Fuck that.  The best cards don't charge *any* fees for
           normal usage so you can pay off the whole thing every month and use
           the card forever without paying the bastards a penny.
           \_ there are rewards cards which don't charge fees.  I like MBNA
              World Points, which has a 1% cash-back option.
              \_ there are quite a few rewards cards out there that don't
                 have annual fees. it's not like giving you 1% back is a big
                 deal when they make ~3% + ~30 cents per transaction, plus
                 exorbitant interest charges.
                 \_ If they're going to charge the merchant a fee per
                    transaction anyway (regardless of what card you have)
                    then this shouldn't matter. Interest charges only
                    apply if you don't pay your full balance.
                 \_ my local kinko's copy now lets you put small numbers of
                    copies on your credit card (as few as one copy, 10 cents).
                    Anyone know how they're able to dodge the above fees?
        \_ http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/living/travel/8278292.htm
        \_ I like Shell Citibank card.  %5 discount on Shell gasoline purchase.
           \_ Ha!  I get 5% discount on _any_ gasoline purchase with
              my Chase Freedom card + upto %1 back on the non-gasoline
              purchases.
              \_ yay, let's all buy more gas and increase our dependence on
                 the middle east.
                 \_ you have to buy the gas you have to buy.  i doubt he's
                    driving 5% more because it's 5% cheaper.
        \_ Amazon Card (Bank One) 1% "cash" back in the form of Amazon
           gift certificates.  3% back for purchases from Amazon.  Used to
           be 2% and 6% respectively, but Next Bank went bankrupt and
           Amazon then selected Bank One.  They automatically mail me a
           $25 Amazon gift certificate everytime I spent $2500, pretty
           hassle free.
        \_ My Platinum card from Patelco that returns 1% cash on purchases.
           Cash it the best "reward."
        \_ My BofA Visa has 1% cash back on all purchases. The cash is
           deposited into my checking acct. There isn't any annual fee
           or membership fee or anything, though I think you have to have
           a BofA checking account with a min balance of $1K.
           \_ does this card have a specific name?
                \_ mine is called the banking benefits visa.
           \_ credit card or debit card?
                \_ credit card (I have a debit card, but that one doesn't
                   get 1% cash back. I only use it at atms).
           \_ if you're talking about the banking benefits card, that card
              is kind of a ripoff. they give you one point per hundred
              dollars, but they always round down. also, if you receive a
              credit to your card, they round up when they deduct points
              from your card. this card is only good if you're one of those
              people who apparently gets double points for some reason.
                \_ I agree that it would be better if they gave you 1%
                   for ever $ instead of for ever $100, but I haven't
                   found any visa/mc that offers this w/o a membership
                   fee or annual fee. The nice thing about the BofA
                   card is that getting your cash back is easy (compared
                   with some of the other cards I used to have) and
                   all of your transaction information shows up in
                   BofA's online banking site.
                   I have a couple of other cards other than this one.
                   I use a Chase Freedom card for all my gasoline and
                   I used to use a Amex Blue card for all my online
                   txn (until they screwed up their website making it
                   impossible to find the one use cc number form). Blue
                   was a decent card (1% cash back, no membership fee,
                   no annual fee, &c.) but the problem is that lots of
                   places (esp. overseas) don't take Amex so you have
                   to have a backup Visa/MC.
2004/4/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:12989 Activity:nil
4/2     For the interested (and since it was deleted right after I posted it),
        the raw numbers for the 308k jobs added in March are at:
        http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t14.htm
        To the person claiming it was all part-time jobs:  how many of the
        "jobs lost under Bush's watch" were part-time?  And how many weren't
        directly attributable to 9-11 (hint: 1 million jobs lost because of
        9-11)?
        \_ http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t05.htm
           300,000 of those jobs are part time
           \_ I believe you're pointing to the 'household survey' which isn't
              the same bunch of numbers at all.  Also, how many of the
              previously lost jobs were part time?
              \_ I am not the only one saying this. The chief economist of
                 Wells Fargo says the same thing:
                 http://csua.org/u/6qv
                 It is a good number, but not a great number. Expect
                 employment numbers to go down next month.
                 \_ Expect employment numbers to go up/down based on what?
                    I love the motd prophets.  Was that tea leaves or chicken
                    bones?
        \_ Both your links are not working because the .gov cannot seem to
           afford servers robust enough to handle the load.
           \_ Because it was posted on some very active news sites.  It'll be
              easier to read in a few days.
2004/4/2-3 [Politics, Uncategorized/Profanity, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Troll] UID:12990 Activity:nil
4/2     Fuck your selective censorship. If you want to delete stuff, delete
        fairly, not just threads that get a lot of discussion.
        \_ LIGHT CANDLE!
        \_ Better, yet, don't delete stuff.  It only encourages all these
           politics assholes to post even more.  If the censor left it all
           alone the politics people would get bored and go away once they
           saw that their ranting never goes anywhere but the censor never
           lets them get to that point so it goes on and on....
           \_ Stuff over 1 day old is fair game to delete. It's just the
              censor usually deletes certain things within hours or less,
              and surgically choosing particular ones for no good reason.
              \_ Exactly.  If he left everything alone the politics morons
                 would finally get a chance to get it out of their system and
                 go away so we could talk about sports and linux again the way
                 the motd was meant to be.
2004/4/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12991 Activity:high
4/2     Taiwan forming its own identity, apart from China -SJ Mercury News
        http://csua.org/u/6qg
        \_ how powerful is Taiwan's military?  Who'll come to Taiwan
           support if China invades Taiwan?
           \_ currently strong enough that China can't risk a failed invasion.
              the US will.
              \_ Is Taiwan recognized by the U.N.?  But how did this happen
                 when China is in the security council?
                 \_ Taiwan Relations Act
                 \_ Who cares what the UN recognizes?
                    \_ it's not the UN, it's every single darn country in
                       in the world including the USA, with the exception
                       of a few banana republics in the 3rd world part of
                       of the americas.
                       \_ which "it" are you refering to?  As long as the US,
                          Japan, and the EU are willing to trade with you, it
                          doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
           \_ Didn't we cover all of this, yesterday?
        \_ I read somewhere that Taiwan's military is strong enough to
           defend itself for a few weeks. At any rate, if China seriously
           wants to take over Taiwan, it can do so easily. It's just a
           question of how they want to be perceived by others. The Chinese
           question of how they want to be perceived by others. The CHinese
           government feels insulted by the Taiwanese government so they
           gotta act tough. By they also won't attack Taiwan just because
           they don't want other people to perceive them as an aggressive
           nation.
           \_ Okay, mano a mano, China can most likely beat Taiwan.  I don't
              think anyone ever said the opposite.  They won't attack Taiwan
              because of U.S. power; China would like its own citizens to
              believe that it's not attacking Taiwan because of its great
              benevolence, which is not a real problem given its propaganda,
              censorship, and punishment machine.
              \_ I am fucking tired of this worn topic, so here is for you
                 to know.  1) China does NOT have the capability to invade
                 Taiwan in the near future.  2) China does HAVE the ability
                 make the life in Taiwan miserable for the foreseeable future
                 and beyond without actually using much of a military force.
                 \_ My post counters all the assertions of the previous post.
                    \_ No, it doesn't.  Your post makes unfounded assertions
                       no different than the one you respond to above.
                    Your post ... just seems to be angry.
        \_ Can some anti-Taiwan-independence person explain to me why wanting
           independence for its own sake is a bad thing?  Surely we have
           some people on the motd who don't want an independent Taiwan,
           otherwise this topic wouldn't keep coming up. -- ilyas
           \_ ha, that'll get a predictable response. haven't you heard all the
              "inseparable part of china" stuff? expect a civil war reference.
           |_ We were proud being Chinese till the damn Westerners
              humiliated us in the past 200 years. We're sick and tired of
              seeing your corrupt big white penises^H^H^H^H^H^H^H military
              power in our ass and we just want to show you that we're not
              the stupid, unsophisticated savages you portray us to be. At
              any rate, we want unification so that we will eventually kick
              you ass like we did centries ago.
              \_ You are showing us already...
              \_ unification won't help.  your entire culture is pointed in
                 the wrong direction to overtake the US or even the EU.  if
                 China had the same military as the US they'd have already
                 taken over the world so you can put away the America bashing.
                 \_ Nah, when China's mighty fleet sailed the seven seas under
                    admiral Cheng Ho, it didn't invade or occupy any country
                    even though it could easily do so.  Chinese is just not
                    interested in barbarian lands cause they smell bad.  Only
                    barbarians invade other people's lands.  Chinese prefer to
                    allow the barbarians to voluntarily join the Great Chinese
                    Civilization but only after they learned to civilize
                    \_ *hahahahhahahahhahahahahahaa*!!! too funny!  Let's go
                       share some boiled pigs knuckles and watch a few
                       hundred drug dealers get executed in public right after
                       we perform a few forced abortions on the outlying farms.
              \_ You are showing us already...
                 taken over the world so you can put away the America bashing.
                    themselves.
           \_ I already answered the question yesterday.  let's put it this
              way.  taiwan already has de facto independence under the
              current status quo.  why risk economic war or military war
              with prc for "official independence".  taiwan is already paying
              a huge economic price in terms of lack of direct links with
              prc and the military arms race with prc, and the various self-
              imposed limits place on its companies in terms of investing /
              setting up shop in the prc.  taiwan shares the same language as
              prc, and taiwan businessmen are thriving in prc.  the tv
              shows, movies, music, food all have huge overlap.  why risk
              all that just to gain the independence "name", which still
              will not be recognized by all the major countries in the
              world?  there is nothing necessarily wrong with taiwan
              independence per se, just like there is nothing necessarily
              wrong with say Hawaii independence, but in practice it is
              not worth it.  Now, most people from the prc would disagree
              with this view.  they believe taiwan is part of an
              unfinished civil war.  they also believe that taiwan is in
              many ways a pawn of US and Japan, even though they would admit
              that the flow of investment, technology, management expertise
              from taiwan to prc has benefitted the prc tremendously over the
              past 20 years.  add to that the long history of japan and western
              bullying of china (as the "big white penis"-guy above
              pointed out), and taiwan independence becomes unacceptable
              at any cost.  on the other hand, many prc people, or at
              least those in the us, recognized that taiwan is in most
              ways more advanced than the prc, and that war is the last
              resort, and status quo is the best, and prc should learn
              from taiwan in many ways.  why don't you tell us what is the
              criteria one should use in weighing the merits on whether
              a territory should become independent?
              \_ You are talking about the international games of chess.  China
                 doesn't want US influence to expand, etc.  Do you have a moral
                 argument against the independence of Taiwan (assuming a
                 majority of Taiwanese want it)?  I don't care about the rest,
                 because the rest is soulless bullshit. -- ilyas
                 \_ soulless bullshit?  you don't know what the fuck you
                    are talking about.  We are talking about real lives
                    in the real world, not one of your silly little
                    pseudo intellectual head games.
                    \_ Just like the founders of this nation.  They spilled
                       blood and most ended poor or dead from our war of indep.
                       from England.  Just some silly little head game over
                       tea taxes, eh?
                       \_ yea, they spilled blood just like the southerners
                          spilled blood during the civil war.  if you want
                          independence, blood will be spilled.  Also, unlike
                          US vs far away England, taiwan will still have to
                          live with a hostile neighbour 100 times its size.
                          \_ With real acknowledged independence they will be
                             out from the ever present shadow of the evil PRC.
                             The constant threat of invasion and the
                             uncertainty of their future status is a big long
                             term drag on the economy which hinders foreign
                             investment and growth.  If their status were
                             finally resolved the newly free Taiwan would make
                             the current Taiwan look like the 3rd world.
                    pseudo intellectual head games.
                       from England.  Just some silly little head game over
                       tea taxes, eh?
                       tea taxes, eh?
                       \_ yea, they spilled blood just like the southerners
                          spilled blood during the civil war.  if you want
                          independence, blood will be spilled.
                          Like I said, taiwan already has democracy and
                          freedom.  what additional benefits will independence
                          bring?  what are the risks and costs?
                    \_ Ok, let's try this again.  Say there is this
                       hypothetical island in the pacific, where the majority
                       of the population wants to secede from the big
                       continental Paterland.  The big continental Paterland
                       doesn't want this, for a variety of realpolitik reasons
                       which I understand.  Aside from those reasons, the moral
                       argument against the independence of the island is...?
                         -- ilyas
                       \_ I don't know about a "moral" argument, but how
                          about the fact that Taiwanese people suck just
                          as bad at government as Mainlanders?  In fact,
                          historically Chinese stink at government.
                          \_ What are you trying to say here, that the
                             Taiwanese (and Chinese) are incapable of governing
                             themselves well, and need strong foreign
                             leadership?  -- ilyas
                             \_ No, just that it doesn't really matter
                                if they're independent or not, things
                                are going to suck.  What they need isn't
                                foreigners, they need a truly great
                                   \_ Welcome to World History.  Enjoy your
                                      stay. -- ilyas
                                leader to emerge, the likes of which
                                they've seldom had in their thousands of
                                years of history.
                                      \_ I'm just asking for clarification.
                                years of history.
                                   Their world spanning empire collapses into
                                   anarchy until the next superman emerges a
                                   \_ These "great" leaders are mostly known
                                      for wars and conquests. I don't think I
                                      want one of them drafting me into his
                                      glorious army.
                                   few hundred years later?
                                \_ So you're saying the entire Chinese culture
                                   is simply broken and they need a superman to
                                   save their pathetic useless asses?  And what
                                   happens after this mythical superman dies?
                                   Their world spanning empire collapses into
                                   anarchy until the next superman emerges a
                                   few hundred years later?
                                   \_ Welcome to World History.  Enjoy your
                                      stay. -- ilyas
                                   \_ you didn't know the Chinese culture was
                                      broken?  people realized it back in the
                                      last century.
                                \_ If a truly great leader emerges, I want him
                                   here where I live.  Those are rare!
                                     -- ilyas
                        \_ let's say 49% of the population do not wish to
                           secede.  Also, say, the population of Paterland
                           have fought many wars and sacrificed many lives
                           in defense of the island (whose population was
                           originally happy to be part of Paterland since
                           they are from Paterland) against invaders who
                           after taking the island, also invaded other
                           parts of Paterland, exploiting the island for
                           supplies, etc. for its war effort, killing millions
                           of Paterland people.  Let's say big amounts of
                           wealth from Paterland has been used to help
                           develop the island over many years  ...  by the
                           way, if I live in wisconsin, does that mean I
                           have no stake in say florida, or do I have a
                           stake there too since it is also part of my
                           country?
                           \_ Only about 20% of Taiwan population came from
                              China during the 20th century.  Immigration
                              patterns don't prove very much.  At one point,
                              the vast majority of Americans were of British
                              descent.  That Paterland provided for
                              the island's security at one point is irrelevant.
                              That's like saying if a girl dates a guy, and he
                              gets a bloody nose protecting her, she has to
                              marry him and stay with him forever.  What if
                              she no longer likes him?
                              If you live in Wisconsin, it's frankly none of
                              your business if Florida wants to secede.
                                -- ilyas
                              \_ really?  so even though americans fought
                                 to protect hawaii from the japanese during
                                 ww2, it doesn't count for anything, and hawaii
                                 can just dump the US if it chose to do so?
                                 Also, say, as an american, I like the freedom
                                 and choice to be able to move around the
                                 country.  for example, say, I want to work in
                                 illinois, and retire in florida.  you are saying
                                 this freedom of mine can be taken away?  Also,
                                 I like to visit the national parks of this
                                 country, but some random territory can just
                                 declare these parks to off limits to all
                                 other americans besides the locals?  do you
                                 even know what it means to be a nation?
                                 \_ As far as I am concerned, nations are
                                    voluntary things.  If people can't leave
                                    it's a gulag, not a nation.  If Floridians
                                    decide they want to strike it on their own,
                                    and close their borders to tourists, that's
                                    their right.  You don't have a right to
                                    wander through other people's backyards,
                                    if they don't want you there. -- ilyas
                                    \_ so north taiwan can declare indepen-
                                       dence and become a separate nation
                                       from south taiwan, or maybe remain
                                       in status quo, or even rejoin china?
                                       \_ If they want, yes. -- ilyas
                                          \_ so if I declare my ranch to be
                                             a one person nation and then
                                             let russia place an icbm here,
                                             there is no problem right?
                                             \_ no, you can't.  you're not a
                                                large enough entity to survive
              since you'll be landlocked, have no access to seed, water,  _/
              fuel, fertiliser, trade partners, medical care or anything else
              without passing through US territory you exist at the whim of
              the US which makes your 'nation' no different than being a
              citizen-slob like the rest of us.  pay your taxes and shut up.
                                                   \_ As far as I am concerned
                                                      you have a right to
                                                      secede by default, and
                                                      the burden of proof is
                                                      on the other party (in
                                                      this case the US).  Of
                                                      course, per the link I
                                                      posted below, US will not
                                                      allow secession, since
                                                      democracies are destroyed
                                                      by secessions. -- ilyas
                                             there is no problem right?
                                                independently.  you can declare
                                                anything you want but even if
                                                the US let you secede you'd
                                                just starve to death.  since
                                                of the US you *are* a part of
                                       if you don't like it, you can always
                                       leave the country.  and no, nobody's
                                                the US (in effect) thus your
                                                secession is meaningless.  pay
                                                your taxes and stop wanking.
                                                you'd only survive at the will
                                                of the US you *are* a part of
                                                the US (in effect) thus your
                                                secession is meaningless.  pay
                                                your taxes and stop wanking.
                                                \_ why will I starve to death?
                                                   I can just grow food on
                                                   my plot of land and
                                                   live well.  hundreds of
                                                   millions of subsistence
                                                   farmers all over the world
                                                   do that.
                                    \_ no a nation is not a voluntary thing.
                                       it is a shared thing owned by all
                                             \_ I don't know.  I think we need
                                                a few hundred years and better
                                                tech for the kind of government
                                                I would be happy with.  Your
                                                argument can also read: "What
                                                makes you say US will be
                                                successful with so many hostile
                                                non-democracies stomping
                                                around?"  -- ilyas
                                                \_ The answer  to your question
                                                   is already answered by you.
                                                   The US federal government
                                                   forces everyone to work
                                                   together for the greater
                                                   good whether you want to or
                                                   not.  In a libertarian
                                                   system what is your method
                                                   of common defense?  Intern'l
                                                   trade?  Transport?  Border
                                                   protection?  It's here and
                                                   now without needing Star
                                                   Trek tech to make it work.
                                          \_ They don't necessarily rely on it.
                                             Usually they want to be part of
                                             a larger group so as to have more
                                             power and benefits. If they were
                                             too fragmented they'd also be
                                             vulnerable to aggressive non-
                                             democracies as you say. I think
                                             that if the South had successfully
                                             seceded, it would have altered
                                             world history but not necessarily
                                             anything so terrible. The key is
                                             the "states' rights" issue which
                                             e.g. in Europe will always be
                                             important. I believe USA founders
                                             intended a lot more state power
                                             and less federal. It's also pretty
                                             clear that Californians would be
                                             better served by being split into
                                             at least 2 states.
                                             \_ It depends on where you draw
                                                that line.  Some splittists
                                                want to draw that line north
                                                of the SF Bay Area.
                                       backyard is florida.  backyard is the
                                       citizens.  no it is not a gulag because

                                       small patch of lawn behind your house.
                                       if you don't like it, you can always
                                       leave the country, or work to change it
                                       for the better.  and no, nobody's
                                       backyard is florida.  backyard is the
                                       small patch of lawn behind your house.
                                       \_ Here is a good read on ethics of
                                          secession:
              \_ of course it's the US navy.  once the Korean War started,
                 the US 7th fleet is ready to defend taiwan, and prc indefi-
                 nitely postponed all plans for invading taiwan.  Lots
                 of Taiwanese communists then were ready to help the prc from
                 the inside if prc invaded.
                 \_ Why did the PRC not chase the KMT to Taiwan immediately?
                    Because they couldn't.  The USN came much later and now
                    it's too late.  Without fighting it, no one can say if
                    the PRC can take Taiwan or not without US helping Taiwan.
                    Even if the US backed out now, I don't see the PRC going
                    in for at least 10-15 more years.  They don't have the
                    air force, the navy, the troop transports, and most
                    importantly, the logistical capacity to launch a large
                    scale amphibious invasion.  DDay wasn't just luck.
              "inseparable part of china" stuff? expect a civil war reference.
                         -- ilyas
           you can't defend yerself for just to prove a point
           that's no longer a point.
           It's fun to watch people who follow too. -- ivy
                  http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/secession.html
                                          Interesting point: democracies rely
                                          on suppression of secession.  This
                                          is one of the reasons I dislike
                                          democracies (and why there is tension
                                          between libertarian ideas and
                                          democratic ideas).  There are some
                                          other goodies on that site worth
                                          reading. -- ilyas
                                          \_ uhm, what is your governmental
                                             preference if not democracy?  you
                                             think a purely libertarian form
                                             of government is viable in a world
                                             with so many hostile non-libert.
                                             governments stomping around?
                                             \_ I don't know.  I think we need
                                                a few hundred years and better
                                                tech for the kind of government
                                                I would be happy with.  Your
                                                argument can also read: "What
                                                makes you say US will be
                                                successful with so many hostile
                                                non-democracies stomping
                                                around?"  -- ilyas
        \_ It gotta be the funniest thing if you say Taiwan can defend itself.
           It's the dumbest thing to do to pick a fight
           you can't defend yerself for just to prove a point
           that's no longer a point.
           It's fun to watch people who follow too. -- ivy
           \_ This is historically and factually incorrect.  If Taiwan was
              unable to defend itself or more correctly if the PRC was capable
              of taking over Taiwan at any point in the last 50 years they
              would have.  What stopped them from following when the KMT losers
              fled the mainland and continuing their winning civil war on the
              island and being done with it?  It wasn't the US Navy....
              \_ of course it's the US navy.  once the Korean War started,
                 the US 7th fleet is ready to defend taiwan, and prc indefi-
                 nitely postponed all plans for invading taiwan.  Lots
                 of Taiwanese communists then were ready to help the prc from
                 the inside if prc invaded.
2004/4/2-3 [Reference/Military] UID:12992 Activity:nil
4/2     Step right up, Bush supporters. Great Network Engineering
        job in Iraq:
        http://csua.org/u/6qf
        \_ An acquaintance of a friend is doing something like this.  He'll
           pull down $250k/year...  If he survives.
        \_ If I had enough Cisco I'd apply.  You know what those 4 ex-special
           forces guys were doing in Iraq before they got butchered?  Getting
           a shit load of money to be there.  You know what the 1000s of others
           in their position are doing right now?  Getting a shit load of money
           to be there.  Their odds are only slightly worse than your odds
           walking down the street in Oakland at night and you don't make as
           much.
           \_ Those guys were offered $60K for 3 months of work. One of them,
              the Navy SEAL, was on Combat Missions and has his own series
              of workout videos, his own personal training company for stars.
           \_ I also don't walk around Oakland at night.
              \_ Wuss.  you should be fine with an AK-47 and a flak jacket.
                   -NERFAMC
                 \_ Yes, if only those four Americans had guns on their
                    persons at the time, all of this could have been avoided,
                    because we *all know* that if everyone had guns there
                    would be no crime.
                    \_ Lisa: "I told you capital punishment wasn't a deterrent."
                    \_ You have won the "Best Retort of the Day" award.
                       \_ not really. that's just old rehash and red herring.
                    \_ If those 4 guys were armed the same in Oakland they'd
                       be ok at night.  They were simply inadequately armed
                       for the place they were in.  If they were in an APC or
                       even a military humvee instead of a civilian truck,
                       they'd be here today.  Hey, I know, I'll bet if all the
                       US military guys stomping around Iraq simply stopped
                       carrying weapons we'd lose fewer guys.  Right?  We know
                       (as you say) that having a weapon has no defensive use
                       or value, right?  The next time we invade a country we
                       should send girl scouts with cookies and daisies.  What
                       is your plan if someone breaks into your house?  Offer
                       them tea and ask them politely to not kill you or rape
                       your daughter?
                       \_ if everyone carries a gun at night in Oakland,
                          I would not dare to go there, cause I can't tell
                          who is the crook.  also, the bad dude may have
                          a bigger gun then me, even though most ladies
                          think my gun is big enough.
                                          \_ Even a .22 can kill, sometimes.
                          \_ if everyone carried a gun, they'd be a lot more
                             polite after an initial darwinian blood bath.
                             that you say anything about his gun being bigger
                             than your gun says you know nothing about guns.
                             i don't want to be shot by a dinky .22 anymore
                             than a big honking 44.  I can get killed by either
                             and even if i survive it's going to hurt like
                             a motherfucker.
2004/4/2-3 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc, Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:12993 Activity:nil
4/2     Interesting.  Now I'm seeing spams that consist entirely of HTML
        mail containing Javascript code that reads characters from a
        numerical array - the spam consists of little more than a list of
        numbers.  Funny that spam detection techniques have slowly pushed
        the spammers into making their mail illegible.
        \_ but that's easy enough to filter.  what legitimate reason is there
           to allow javascript in email? (heck, I still think there are few
           good reasons for HTML mail at all...)
           \_ I think rich-text-format is good enough.  No need to go HTML.
           \_ there was never any reason to allow html in email.  or really
              i should say the disadvantages overwhelm the minor advantages.
2004/4/2 [Computer/SW/OS/FreeBSD] UID:12994 Activity:nil
4/2     How can I get xbiff on my home freebsd machine to check my
        /var/mail/ on soda? Thanks.
2004/4/2-3 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Japan] UID:12995 Activity:high
4/2     http://tinyurl.com/2h3cv
        "Russia said in February that it was developing a so-called
        hypersonic missile technology capable of piercing the United
        States' system. But Mr. Ishiba said he did not believe that a
        shield would encourage other countries to develop missiles that
        would defeat the system. "If you launch a missile and it gets
        shot down," he said, "you give up missile production." "
        ** Huh? **
        \_ saying that if the non-hypersonic missiles get shot down
           why bother with missiles
        \_ Maybe he's trying to say there's cheaper ways of fucking us up.
           \_ The argument for missle defense is not that it will be
              perfect. That's stupid.  The argument goes more like: (as a
              metaphor)  Despite the locks on your door, thieves can
              metaphor)  Despite the locks on your door, theives can
              break in and steal.  Should you therefore leave the door
              open?
              \_ I've never felt safer than when i lived just up from a crazy
                 biker dude who left his front door literally wide open all
                 the time.  if anyone wanted to rob our place, they'd probably
                 the ceiling.  the DETERENCE of the mad biker was much more
                 just wander in the front door and get blasted straight through
                 the cieling.  the DETERENCE of the mad biker was much more
                 \_ Ok you're safer from random violence. But psycho biker may
                    attract violence, or somehow harm you. I'd rather just live
                    in a normal neighborhood and take steps.
                 useful than a locked door.  deterence has worked with nuclear
                 weapons for half a century as well.
              \_ How much have we spent on Star Wars? $100B? $200B?
                 \_ About $2b total, mostly in basic research to get where we
                    are today.  Please stop inventing random numbers.  With $2b
                    they wouldn't be *any* safer after the union driven harbors
                    got their fingers in the pie.
              open?
                 How much safer could our harbors and airports be
                 for that much money?
              \_ But it'd be easier for a terrorist to sneak a nuclear
                 device in the same way drugs get in here from South
                 America.  So the argument is more like: What good is
                 locking your door if you've got a gaping hole in your
                 wall big enough to drive a car through?
                 \_ Umm, not exactly.  Nice red herring though.  We have
                    something of a defense against that.  It sucks, but
                    it's not nothing.  We have NO defense against
                    missiles.
                    \_ But what's the bigger threat?  Terrorists are
                       the main bad guys these days, and they don't
                       usually go for (expensive) ICBMs when they have
                       cheaper and simpler options.
                       \_ The red herring here is that we should/can only
                          \_ No, the red herring is that a $30 lock is
                             analagous to a $200 billion missile defense
                             system.  The missile defense system is simply
                             not cost-effective; a lock on your door is.
                             \_ What is the cost of a city getting incinerated?
                                I suspect more than $200b.  What is the cost
                                of your house getting robbed?  I suspect less
                                than $200b.  You're struggling with the concept
                                of appropriate levels of response.  The correct
                                level for keeping a city from turning to ashes
                                is much higher than for your bike parked out
                                on telegraph.
                          defend against a single threat.  The reality is that
                          we should try to defend against all threats.  Natn'l
                          defense is not an either-or proposition.
                       \_ That's true that terrorists are the bigger
                          threat, but that's doesn't make them the ONLY
                          threat.  We're working on how to stop
                          terrorists, but don't be fooled into thinking
                          that NK, China, or even Russia are completely
                          neutralized.  With the lazer 747 we can help
                          defend Japan and SK against the North.
                          \_ what do you mean "even russia"?  russia
                             is still the only country that can
                             incinerate the entire USA if it so chooses.
                             strong man putin is pulling russia back
                             on its feet, and in this era of cheap
                             labor and high material costs, the vast
                             land and riches of mother russia is
                             going to benefit russia tremendously.
                             the russian bear shall rise again!
                             \_ "incinerate the entire USA".  So you think a
                                country that can potentially only incinerate
                                the west coast such as China or NK isn't a
                                threat?  btw, russia is still going through the
                                death throes of self destruction.  they are
                                not yet in a recovery phase.
                                \_ you are out of date.  russia is very
                                   much into recovery.  It is using the
                                   formula of get rich first with capitalism
                                   under strong authoritarian leadership
                                   \_ russia is fucked.  their last election
                                      was a total joke.  they're teetering on
                                      the edge of dictatorship (again) and now
                                      they have a broken military *and*
                                      terrorists beating on their doors at
                                      the same time.  i'm not out of date.  im
                                      right here in 2004.  you're living in the
                                      hey day of post-communism but before they
                                      saw how hard the road to freedom really
                                      is.  oh yeah and their environment was
                                      and still is *devastated* from what the
                                      communists did to it which makes our
                                      worst problems look like a fairy land of
                                      healthy goodness.  russia = fux0red.
              open?
                       cheaper and simpler options.
                                \_ you are out of date.  russia is very
                                   much into recovery.
                                   followed by US allies like Japan, S. Korea,
                                   Taiwan, Singapore, etc.  when these nations
                                   were in a similar stage of development.
2004/4/2-5 [Science/Space] UID:12996 Activity:nil
4/2     Yahoo! News - Satellite to Test Einstein PRedictions
        http://csua.org/u/6ql
        \_ uh, did you mean
           http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3596499.stm
           \_ how dare they advance human knowledge?  didn't they get that
              memo?  NASA's new mission is to do flashy stunts to get Bush
              re-elected.  sheesh; the nerve of some of these government
              "scientists" is unblievable!
              \_ which flashy stunts?  you mean like the ones about going to
                 the moon and mars which won't happen until years after he's
                 reelected?  idiot.
                 \_ I think he means the flashy stunts where Bush gets to
                    look like a visionary space explorer while ensuring that
                    we'll never be able to pay for said expeditions.
                    \_ if the mars and moon missions are financially impossible
                       and never happen, i don't really care.  what pisses me
                       off is that they're killing good science at NASA left
                       and right to divert money into something that probably
                       won't happen.
                       \_ Which good science is being killed?
                          \_ I'm sorry I don't have specific grants I  can
                             name off the top of my head, but I know of at
                             least one good astrophysical detector program that
                             was just killed because of this nonsense.  people
                             in the NASA crowd that i know are pissed about it
                             and i trust them.
                             \_ dummy, of course they're pissed off that their
                                useless little pet projects got killed so we
                                could do some big science and actually maybe
                                go somewhere and get something done.  You trust
                                NASA people?  NASA is a totally fucked and
                                useless agency that should have been replaced
                                20 years ago.  The NASA crowd?  Pfah!  Useless
                                ass covering paper pushers doing nice safe
                                dinky little garage science projects.
                          \_ Hubble, for example. However, it hasn't
                             happened yet and won't if Bush loses.
                             \_ hubble?  instead of making noise about an
                                aged piece of crap which was broken on day 1,
                                you should be pushing for a replacement with
                                modern hardware that doesn't require 'glasses'
                                to see anything.  the hubble has served very
                                well but it's dead jim, stick a fork in it.
                                it's time to stop looking at stuff and put some
                                real energy into *going* places.
                                \_ Wow.  You moron, Hubble's life isn't being
                                   shortened because of budget.  It's because
                                   of safety.  The Hubble orbit doesn't leave
                                   the shuttle with enough fuel to transition
                                   to ISS orbit it there's damage to the
                                   shuttle on lift-off.  Until the safety issue
                                   is fixed, there are no missions planned IIRC
                                   that don't have a transitional orbit to the
                                   ISS.
                    \_ BUCK FUSH!
                       \_ whoa!  that's deep!  im so voting for Nader now!
2004/4/2-5 [Reference/Tax] UID:12997 Activity:nil
4/2     So some guy decides to try to jump off of the bay bridge and holds
        up traffic for hours while police try to negociate with him.  He's
        already cost the state far more than he'll ever pay in state taxes,
        so why not just shoot him or push him off already?
        \_ or better yet, since people will get pissed about killing the
           guy, just put a safety net below him, then push him off.  police
           do not solve problems the same way engineers do. usually this is
           probably for the better.
        \_ Because people are not potatoes.
           \_ Tell me about it.  Potatoes are useful before and after falling
              200 feet into water.
           \_ we have enough people on this planet already.
              \_ that's why we should stop tax breaks for people who
                 reproduce like pigs.
                 \_ pigs are over breeding?  eat more pork.  the other white
                    meat.
        \_ "Think of the children!"
        \_ Did he eventually jump of get down?  Wussed out didn't he?
           \_ At 11:30pm he had moved off the edge to an alcove and was acting
              groggy.  The CHP SWAT team, wearing safety lines, rushed in and
              "subdued" him.
              \_ clubbed him into submission or tasered him?
              \_ This isn't what SWAT is for.  Complete waste of money.
                 Even if he should be saved, a social worker would suffice.
                 \_ since when does the CHP have a SWAT team anyway...
                    \_ CHP _DOES_ have a SWAT team, they are for Govn'r
                       protection and SWAT situations on state propert'y. In
                       most cases however they defer to the local county
                       SWAT team for tactical responses.
        \_ Hopefully it'll be you up there next time and they'll just push.
        \_ Personally I'm taking notes, and figure that I will use this to
           stop traffic in SF next time I have need for such a distraction.
           \_ youll get arrested and at a minimum spend 72 hours in lockup
              being 'evaluated'.  if some state paid doctor decides he has
              a spare bed and he needs funding, he'll declare you insane and
              keep you there until he retires or you die of old age.  i say
              go for it!
2004/4/2-3 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:12998 Activity:nil
4/2     In Outlook 2000, when the message text contains a UNC path, Outlook
        usually display it as a link that I can click on to open the folder or
        file.  But if the path contains space characters, it only recognizes
        the path up to the first space.  Any way to get around this problem?
        Thanks.
        \_ fire up the debugger and fix it!
        \_ use < > around your UNC.  Something like <\\your server\path>
2004/4/2-3 [ERROR, uid:12999, category id '18005#1.5975' has no name! , , Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12999 Activity:nil
4/2     We bombed on the programming contest, but right now we're #1 here:
        http://www.clickbackamerica.org/default.php
        \_ Depressing, isn't it?
        \_ Why do you keep making fun of Cal's programming team for
           doing so poorly? If you're so hot, why don't you join or
           coach the team?
           \_ Can we say the same thing about US presidents?
              \_ I kept sending mail to prsident@whitehouse.com but all I got
                 back was pr0n stuff about interns and blue dresses....
2004/4/2-5 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:13000 Activity:kinda low
4/2     The WTO has anti-dumping provisions.  Third-world countries complain
        that the US and Europe destroy their farming industry by flooding the
        market with subsidized production.  Who don't any third-world countries
        bring a case in the WTO, since subsidized products are being sold
        below cost?
        \_ they did.  Remember what happened to Cancun, Mexico?
        \_ Theoretically, a 3rd world country only counts as 1/3 of a country,
           hence the name.  However, it really counts much less than that.
           \_ umm, so you're saying a 2nd world country only counts as 1/2
              of a country?
           \_ W0W!  URS0K3WL!
           \_ so you're saying the 3rd world isn't allowed to complain to the
              WTO and only has 1/3rd or less of a vote there?  URL?
              \_ the guy is a moron. what he thinks is the origin of the
                 term "3rd world country" is way off the mark.
                 \_ it comes from a mid-19th century french term meaning
                    "third estate."  during the cold war, the "second world"
                     came to mean the Communist bloc countries, the "first
                     world" was the western industrialized nations, and
                     the "third world" was everyone else. obgoogle.
                     the 1/3 vote thing was made up by a motd troll.
                     \_ no shit, sherlock. who asked you, anyway?
                     \_ You are the next Einstein for figuring out that it was
                        a troll rather than a joke.  However, the rest of your
                        utterance was wrong.  1st world referred to the
                        two superpowers, 2nd referred to the rest of the
                        industrialized countries.  3rd world consisted
                        of the poor countries, which, by "sheer coincidence,"
                        are also the "non-aligned."  That was during the
                        the cold war.  Oh wait, you mentioned google and
                        if you found your answer by google, you must be right.
                        \_ as they say, never attribute to trolling that which
                           can be adequately explained by stupidity.
                 \_ Sir, you made my day.
        \_ interesting thought -- can we use anti-dumping provisions on the
           labor market?
           \_ you mean to stop the flood of cheap american jobs to other
              countries?
        \_ Wasn't there rounds and rounds of trade talks with regard to
           this issue, the last one was in Brazil and collapsed.  Are
           those part of a WTO process?
           \_ arent these the same fuckers who came to Seattle a year or two
              ago?  yeah, we really fucked their shit up!
              \_ I think you mean five years ago.  yer old.
2004/4/2 [Computer/Companies/Google] UID:29898 Activity:high
4/1     Any bets on whether gmail is real or a hoax? Last I heard, gullible
        returns 0 results in google.
        \_ I'd say it is real. it was announced yesterday.
           'whois http://gmail.com'   and    link:gmail.google.com
        \_ updated today: link:www.gmail.com with link to "Learn more"
        \_ wonder what they're doing iwth the people who had @gmail.com addy
           before.  google for "gmail.+com"
           \_ free @gmail.com accounts?
        \_ Real. Confirmed with Google employee working on it.
2004/4/2 [Uncategorized] UID:29899 Activity:nil
4/1     4D Rubiks Cube:
        http://www.plunk.org/~hatch/MagicCube4dApplet
2004/4/2 [Uncategorized] UID:29900 Activity:nil
4/1     There goes one more ally:
        http://csua.org/u/6q7
        \_ Link description is a blatant misrepresentation of link content.
2004/4/2 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:29901 Activity:nil
4/2     Brits, Japanese, Germans, and Aussies to be fingerprinted at
        Passport Control:
        http://csua.org/u/6qe (NYTimes by way of Google)
        Question:  Will my wife, who has a Green Card, be subjected to
        this, or is it just for temporary visitors?
        \_ I'll bet you my U.S. passport that if the Bush junta gets another
           4 years of power, this will include U.S. citizens, canadians, and
           everyone else within four years.  Right now the U.S. is very clearly
           on the road towards fascism, and if America falls no one will be
           safe anywhere.
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/22    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:April:02 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>