Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:April:01 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>
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2004/4/1-2 [Recreation/Humor] UID:12964 Activity:nil Cat_by:auto Edit_by:auto
4/1     http://www.google.com/jobs/lunar_job.html  -John
        \_ That's hilarious. What do you think they are going to do with
           with people who actually reply to that? I'm tempted to try just to
           find out.
           \_ Don't waste your time.  I already applied and got an offer back
              this afternoon.  Now that I'm hiring manager for the new center,
              I'll be taking new applications for drones in a few weeks.  I
              need someone to test experimental oxygen tanks and space walk
              suits.  Any experience in those areas?
        \_ i liked their pigeon-assisted technology one from last year better.
           \_ TCP/IP Over Avian Carrier
              \_ no, http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html
2004/4/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12965 Activity:very high
4/1     The reason why PRC is keeping quiet about Taiwan election -
        http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_14/b3877006.htm
        http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_14/b3877002.htm
        \_ because PRC learned its lesson.  Last thing they want is TW
           nationals rallying against them.  If you know anything about
           Chinese Communist Party, you should know that when they are being
           people rally against them.  If you know anything about Chinese
           quiet, that is when you should be REALLY worry about them.
        \_ This article is filled with "I'm a moron" spin.  Another
           way you could spin it is that Chen's share of the vote increased
           from ~ 35-40% from the 2000 election to ~ 50% for 2004, China
           would find its own stability problematic if it decided to attack
           Taiwan and disrupt business, everyone in Taiwan already knew
           the referendums were totally political anyway, and whatever China
           has or hasn't done, Chen has been re-elected.  In fact, I would
           say that China has realized its previously asinine diplomatic
           approaches have been replaced with something more reasonable.
           \_ why the range of 35-40% ?  he got 39% in 2000 in a 3-way race.
              \_ maybe because I couldn't remember what the exact percentage
                 was?
           \_ let's say if taiwan declares independence, and prc takes
              over all taiwan linked assets and factories in china, and
              cuts off all trade with taiwan (prc being taiwan's biggest
              export market).  is this a cost taiwan is willing to bear
              to move from status quo to independence?  for how long?
              \_ What if then the US freezes all trade to China?  Is this a
                 cost China is willing to bear by being aggressive to Taiwan?
                 For how long?
                 \_ Fat chance.  That would wreck our economy.  If China
                    attacked Taiwan, we'd make a lot of noise and let them
                    burn.
                    \_ In order for China to attack Taiwan, it will need to
                       mass forces.  The U.S. will deploy a couple aircraft
                       carriers, deterring the amphibious assault.  China will
                       need a credible anti-carrier capability, which is why
                       it's developing GPS-guided cruise missiles.  If the U.S.
                       can somehow manage to maintain combat superiority,
                       China won't even try to mass forces.  In the
                       mean time, the U.S. is hoping China and Taiwan will
                       develop business links to an extent that neither will
                       want to disrupt the trade relationship.
                       \_ I doubt China will try to invade Taiwan.  Instead,
                          it may shoot a few missiles, send it's submarine
                          fleet around Taiwan and warn other countries to
                          refrain from sailing their ships there.  This
                          would bring the US fleet near Taiwan, and then
                          who knows what will happen.  US will likely be
                          pressuring Taiwan to backtrack on independence
                 \_ Fat chance.  That would wreck our economy.  If China
                    attacked Taiwan, we'd make a lot of noise and let them
                    burn.
                       mean time, the U.S. is hoping China and Taiwan will
                       develop business links to an extent that neither will
                       want to disrupt the trade relationship.
                          at that point.  Die hard Taiwan independence
                          advocates will wish the posturing will escalate
                          into a war between US and prc.
                          \_ The PRC is a loooong way from even thinking about
                             being able to take on the US Navy.  They might
                             sink a few ships but they'll lose *everything*
                             they've spent 20+ years building up in a few hours
                             and they know it.  If it was otherwise they would
                             have attacked already.
                             \_ clueless one. the prc doesn't need to take
                                on the US Navy.  All they need is to cut
                                off all trade with Taiwan and Taiwan is
                                economically dead.
                                \_ So is China.  China wouldn't cut off it's
                                   nose to spite their face.  Don't call me
                                   clueless until you've demonstrated superior
                                   knowledge or ability.  You've failed on both
                                   counts thus far.  China has only 2 options
                                   to retake Taiwan.  The Taiwanese vote to go
                                   back which is less likely each day or they
                                   invade.
                          \_ Can't you just accept that people like political
           Communist Party, you should know that when they are being
           quiet, that is when you should be REALLY worry about them.
                    be forced to do.
                        \_ nobody mentioned anything about "attack".
                 \_ It isn't even a choice.  It's the minimal PRC would
                    be forced to do.
                    \_ "forced to do", hmmm.
                       \_ exactly.  which part of it do you not understand?
              \_ That's a lot of "if's".  Taiwan will not declare independence;
                 rather, Chen will say it was always independent, so there was
                 nothing to declare anyway.  The question you should be asking
                 is, what if Chen passes a new constitution, and that's a big
                 if, too.
                 \_ Chen will push and push, but PRC will finally draw a line,
                    and that's what I am referring to above.  stop nitpicking,
                    and wasting words.
                 if, too.  And if a new constitution were passed, I have a hard
                 time believing that China would follow up with what you said.
                 I would say this path would lead to war with the U.S., and
                 China wouldn't want to take that chance, since they know
                 they would be beat by the U.S., and they wouldn't want to
                 lose face in any withdrawal.
                             freedoms, people like personal freedoms,
                             they don't want the half-assed Hong Kong "Basic
                             Law" situation -- and they want anyone who would
                             take away those freedoms to go to hell?
                             Just ask all the KMT protesters (even though
                             they're all wrong).
                             \_ Taiwan already has political and personal
                                freedoms.  Taiwan independence is a
                                possible option in theory.  In reality
                                the cost is too high, especially
                                when Taiwan already has all the freedoms
                                under the current status quo.
                                \_ Except for the constant threat of Chinese
                                   invasion, yeah, sort of.
                                   \_ the problem has always been how to
                                      deal with the threat.  burying your
                                      skull in the sand doesn't help.
                 \_ It isn't even a choice.  It's the minimal PRC would
                    be forced to do.
              \_ That's a lot of "if's".  Taiwan will not declare independence;
                 rather, Chen will say it was always independent, so there was
                 nothing to declare anyway.  The question you should be asking
                 is, what if Chen passes a new constitution, and that's a big
                 if, too.  And if a new constitution were passed, I have a hard
                 time believing that China would follow up with what you said.
                 I would say this path would lead to war with the U.S., and
                 China wouldn't want to take that chance, since they know
                 they would be beat by the U.S., and they wouldn't want to
                 lose face in any withdrawal.
                 \_ chen can push and push, but prc will draw a line somewhere,
                    and then the above actions is the minimal that the prc
                    will do.  It may be all at once or one step at a time
                    but it will go on until taiwan backs down.  it doesn't
                    need to fire a shot, and taiwan's economy would be in
                    ruins.  Is that a cost taiwan is willing to pay to go
                    from status quo (note: nobody is talking about being
                    subject to prc rule here) to independence?  United
                    States has been protecting Taiwan for the past half
                    a century.  Instead of being grateful, should Taiwan
                    insist on demanding that Americans spill blood for
                    them, moving in a direction that would be economically
                    devastating to Taiwan, China, US and all east asian
                    nations?  President Bush has repeatedly pleaded with
                    Chen to tone down because Chen's actions are not in the
                    interest of the United States.
                    \_ It's just a matter of time.  One day China will be
                       strong enough to go for it.  Taiwan can't do a thing to
                       stop that.  When that day comes the US can defend or not
                       defend Taiwan.  If the US chooses to defend Taiwan then
                       pray the Chinese have underestimated US navy power.  If
                       the US backs down it is the end of US super power status
                       and the start of another 50 year cold war the whole
                       world will suffer through.
                       \_ Last two posters, will you please speak in specifics?
                          "One day China will be strong enough to go for it".
                          I could just as easily say:  One day China will
                          have a democratic revolution, and Taiwan will join
                          China's democracy once everything has settled down.
                          Both seem equally believable to me, especially since
                          China is *vastly* outclassed by U.S. naval and
                          air power, and the U.S. will make a good effort
                          to keep up its military superiority if China
                          advances far enough.
                          \_ Specifically, "go for it" = "invade".  You could
                             just as easily say your butt is made of green
                             cheese (just like the moon), but it is not equally
                             likely.  If you find the cheese theory and the
                             China invasion theory equally believable then I've
                             got a bridge in Florida to sell you.  China doesnt
                             have to have a better navy/af.  They only have to
                             be superior in the local region.  If they can
                             pull a fast one and cripple local US navy forces
                             and put a few 10s of thousands of men on Taiwan
                             before US reinforcements can show up they've won.
                             There will be some bogus peace treaty signed and
                             Taiwan will vanish into the history books as a
                             minor blurb in some grey side panel box.
                          \_ Die hard Taiwan independence supporters doesn't
                             care whether China becomes democratic or not.
                             They want independence at all cost.  They are
                             driven in a large part by past hatred rather
                             than a vision for the future.
                             \_ Quick question, what's wrong with wanting
                                independence for its own sake?  -- ilyas
                                \_ Exactly.  I'm with you on that one.
                                \_ look, if you can magically turn china
                                   into a brunei, then go ahead with
                                   independence with my full support.
                                   Unlike freedoms or democracy, which
                                   is by nature good, political
                                   independence is neutral in itself.
                                   Its merits is dependent on how well it
                                   will work for the people in practice.
                       \_ China will never be militarily stronger than the
                          US.  The problem is, it doesn't need to be.  It
                          can totally screw up Taiwan's economic livelihood
                          without firing a shot.  Stop trolling.
                          \_ Never?  Ever?  History is full of dead and
                             defeated super powers that would rule the world
                             *forever* or so they thought.  No one on this
                             thread is trolling.  Some of us simply disagree
                             with you.  That is *not* trolling.  You want
                             trolls?  There are plenty of trolls on the other
                             motd threads right now, but not here.
                             \_ Except that the world is now just a big
                                village.  And in a small contained
                                world, once one party attains the upper
                                hand, it will only get stronger and
                                stronger.
2004/4/1 [Uncategorized/Multicategory] UID:12966 Activity:nil
4/1     http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/gastron.shtml
2004/4/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12967 Activity:nil
4/1     Bush and Cheney wed!
        http://www.planetout.com/news/feature.html?sernum=840
2004/4/1-2 [Computer/Networking] UID:12968 Activity:moderate
4/1     My DSL modem is about 25 feet from the phone jack.  My best download
        speed tops out around 1.1Mbit.  Would I get much closer to 1.5Mbit if
        I use a shorter phone line?
        \_ it's more the distance from the DSL station than from your phone
           jack. i'm right at the boundary, so i get only 768kbps
           \_ Yep.  I'm really close and I get 6mbps download.
              \_ I hate you.
              \_ ISP? DSLExtremeP
                 \_ It's about $100/month.  I don't see it on their
                    website so I'll ask if you want.  Email me @ peterl
                    \_ It's $60/mo in SoCal if you are close enough to the CO.
                 \_ I've got Speakeasy, 3mbps down/768kbps up.  Service (phone
                    support and online trouble tickets) is fantastic.  I'm
                    paying about $100/month.  I know they offer 6mbps
                    down/768kbps up for about $10 or $20 more.  I'd recommend
                    them highly.  Email me if interested. -dans
                    \_ Speakeasy is OVER-RATED.
2004/4/1-2 [Science/Biology] UID:12969 Activity:low
4/1     HAHAHAHAHA OOPS.  Another Darwin award winner:
        http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/01/rape.fantasy.reut/index.html
        \_ he didn't kill himself.
           \_ Okay, potential Darwin award nominee then.
           \_ The article says she attacked his testicles.  If he can't
              reproduce, he's a legitimate candiate.
        \_ At least his mind was cool enough to stop and ask, instead of
           overwhalmed by the consensual sex he thought he was about the get
           and went ahead and raped the woman anyway.
           \_ Yeah, he's not that dumb/evil.  He made a simple mistake under
              highly unusual and salacious circumstances.
2004/4/1-3 [Computer/SW/WWW/Browsers] UID:12970 Activity:nil
4/1     I subscribe to an audio service that just started providing downloads
        for the audio.  I'd like to download several files (URL easily
        generated algorithmically), but I have to authenticate through a form.
        Anyone have an example of how to easily use curl to enter a form and
        save cookies so that it can download these files?
        \_ once: curl -c cookies.txt '<DEAD>.../?user=...&pass=<DEAD>
           many: curl -c cookies.txt -O http://path/to/file
           --dbushong
        \_ Consider this your lucky day (you do use firefox, right?):
           http://www.bengoodger.com/software/tabloader
           You just set the extensions of the files you want to autodownload,
           then hit ctrl-shift-s (the latter bit is not mentioned prominently,
           so I'll repeat it: Ctrl-Shift-S).
2004/4/1 [Uncategorized] UID:12971 Activity:nil
4/1     RFC 3751 Omniscience Protocol Requirements
        ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3751.txt
2004/4/1-2 [Uncategorized] UID:12972 Activity:nil
4/1     Hmm, aljazeera's english site doesn't mention what happened today
        in fallujah.  Fair and balanced...
        \_ I don't think they ever said they were fair and balanced.
2004/4/1-2 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:12973 Activity:low
4/1     I am so fucking tired of being overwritten that I will gleefully
        nuke the motd rather than watch this bullshit continue.
        \_ Please use motdedit.  Seriously guys, use your head.
           \_ Please go fuck yourself.  Seriously, dude, fuck you.
              \_ Ooh, well reasoned response, you got me.
                 \_ Slightly more reasoned than suggesting motdedit.
        \_ can someone PLEASE change motdedit so that it'll delete the
           trailing \s+ in motd left by a dumb ass emacs user? -annoyed vi'er
           \- use (setq next-line-max-inserted-newlines 1) --psb
              \_ i think he's complaining about emacs users, not that he is
                 a clueless emacs user who is concerned about his own extras.
        \_ Wah wah wah, I am so selfish and childlike that I will
           destory the motd rather than use a free tool that makes
           it easy to co-operatively use it.
           \_ except for the fact that motdedit munges the crap out of the
              motd.  you get what you pay for.
              \_ Good point.  I'll use MSWord.  -John
                 \_ At least MSWord can properly lock a shared file.
2004/4/1-2 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12974 Activity:very high
4/1     what kind of military strategy would you do in fallujah?
        the best one i heard is to set up a camp w/ food and beds
        outside the city, cordon the city and empty it out inspecting
        each person for weapons, removing weapons from them and searching
        the homes for explosives and weapons. Then moving people back in.
        \_ TO KRUSH ZEIR ENEMIES, TO SEE ZEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOO, UND TO HEAR
           \_ I'm waiting for a Pentagon spokesperson to slip up and call them
              Sadamites.
           \_ http://www.jengajam.com/r/Saddam-Hey-Ya
           ZE LAMENTATION OF ZEIR VOMEN.  -Johnan the Barbarian
        \_ Iron boot.  The place was showered with goodies stolen from the
           rest of Iraq for Saddam's entire multi decade tenure.  Of course
           they're pissed off that they don't get to live well at the expense
           of the rest of the country now.  They'll never happily go along
           with anything.  The uprising needs to be crushed utterly and
           convincingly.  Some only understand and respect force and violence.
           It is unfortunate but it is the way it is sometimes.  This is one
           of those times.
        \_ 1 saddaam + 1 saddaam = 2 saddaams
        \_ You'd have to cordon off the city before you start building the
           camp or else people would get wise and move their weapons.  Then
           during construction you'd have to make sure that food/water and
           \_ I'm a liberal too and I'm not really mad at them.  How dare they
              kill us nice invaders.  Don't they understand we're here to help
              them?  Maybe to save the village we have to destroy it.
           miscelaneous goods can exit/enter the city, wiout weapons being
           smuggled out.  Then once you clear people, you'd have to make sure
           they didn't loot their neighbors houses while they are in the camp.
           Then when you're all done you have to make sure people don't just
           smuggle in more weapons.
        \_ I'm a self-described liberal, and even I would have difficulty
           resisting the urge to firebomb Fallujah into rubble right now.
           \_ I'm a liberal too and I'm not really mad at them.  How dare they
              kill us nice invaders.  Don't they understand we're here to help
              them?  Maybe to save the village we have to destroy it.
              \_ There's a huge difference between killing someone and shooting
                 up their vehicle, setting fire to it, fragging the still
                 living people to the street where you stomp them to death
                 under foot, hack their bodies to pieces and drag what's left
                       \_ These "contractors" ride in heavily armed caravans
                          (for obvious reasons).
                 through the streets and hang it from a bridge with a big
                 stupid grin on your face for the cameras.
                 \_ yea it's much better to drop anti-personnel bombs with
                    thousands of bomblets from high up in the sky.  Much
                             \_ Just until Americans leave, like in Somalia
                                \_ Hehe.  Why do you hate America?
                    more civilized.
                    \_ sorry, not taking the bait or feeding the trolls tonight
              \_ Not only were they civilians, they were delivering FOOD TO THE
                 HUNGRY.  They're animals (those Iraqis who did this) and
                 should be hunted down like animals.
                             \_ If foreigners invaded America, I would
                                try to kill them, and I wouldn't be too
                    \_ Do you feel the same way about how the Italians
                       treated Mussolini?
                                concerned if they were officially civilians
                                or not.
                                \_ would you attack the French for helping
                                   kick out the British for independence?
                                   \_ I see your point, but that is not
                                      analogous to the situation in Fallujah.
                                      Maybe in the Kurd dominated or even
                                      Sunni dominated regions, but not there.
                                \_ Hehe, even if their express purpose was
                                   ousting Dubya?  You talk about killing, but
                                      a much more civilized way of killing.
                                   I don't think you would have the guts to do
                                   it if it came down to it. -- ilyas
                                   \_ yea, it's much easier to kill when
                                      you are high up in the air, dropping
                                      those smart bombs with lots of
                                      bomblets.  the enemy die the same
                                      kind of horrible death, but it is
                                      much more civilized.
              \_ The people they killed were just civilians.
                 \_ I know that.  But if you were a Sunni they'd sure look a
                    lot like invaders to you.
                    \_ 70% of the Iraqis would rather have the US troops
                       instead of the UN troops.
                       \_ Where do you get this figure?
                    carrying weapons.  They are likely to be working closly
                    \_ Now, now..  There is no right and wrong, only different
                       cultures.
                          \_ Zogby polling.  --!that person above but saw it
                       \_ In other news, 38% of all statistics are made up on
                  \_ try harder
                          the spot.
                          \_ this would be funny if uhm well nevermind....
                    \_ See, this is typical liberal smugness.  Iraqis are no
                       more dumb than you or I (well definitely not as dumb
                       as you).  Saying civilians look like invaders to them
                       is like saying _their_ civilians look like terrorists
                       to us, and we should just hang up a few as an example
                       to others.  Idiot.
                       \_ Perhaps you read me too literaly.  I wasn't
        \_ (1) stop sending in unarmored vehicles without escort
               (put up roadblocks to prevent someone from accidentally
               doing this)
           (2) do the standard sweep they've always been doing, but more
                          suggesting they were incapable of telling the
                          difference between a soldier and a civilian.  I was
                          merely saying that from their point of view, both
                          are equally valid targets.
                          \_ Well, if they feel that way, I suppose it's
                             equally valid for us to see them all as valid
                             targets too.  Anyone with half a brain will see
                             that you can't provoke Americans forever.
                             \_ Just until Americans leave, like in Somalia
                                \_ Hehe.  Why do you hate America?
                                \_ You're a piece of shit.
                 \_ They are all ex-Navy Seals and ex-Rangers.  They are
                    carrying weapons.  They are likely to be working closely
                    with the US military.  (indentation corrected)
                    \_ No, they're actually there as security for business
                       people from Europe and local politicians.
                 \_ There are acts of resistance I am willing to accept.  The
                    immolation, dismemberment, and hanging of anyone, armed
                    combatant or civilian, is inhuman and deserves no
                    excusing.  This was barbarism, pure and simple. -SDL
                    \_ Do you feel the same way about how the Italians
                       treated Mussolini?
                       \_ Of course.  It was barbaric.  -!SDL
                \_ No, they're aren't stupid, they knew.  They thought
                       "Hey, here are some white guys who can't fight back
                        Boo-yah!"  That's just plain old murder.
                        \_ From their point of view, the US government it the
                           embodiment of evil.  If they were on the motd, they
        \_ send in the Terminators
                           would probably say it's in line with French
                           partisans killing members of the Vichy Government.
                           \_ Which would still be wrong when you stomp them
                              to death, set them afire and hang them from a
                              bridge.  Is there any case of that in France?
                        \_ Cough. These weren't just civilians. These were
                           armed security contractors, US mercenaries.
                           \_ SO, in other words, they were working for
                              Iraqis...  That makes it SO much more
                              reasonable to kill them.
                              \_ Hmmm... US Mercenary = Working for the US.
                                 \_ No, they worked for local politicians and
                                    EU businessmen as security.
        \_ useless, weapons will flow right back in.  best way is to
           use fense and towers to divide the city into small sections.
           costly though.  the unfortunate truth is that, yes, saddam is
           a brutal dictator, but the 5m Sunnis like him, and so we have
           a 5m hostile population supporting guerilla activities. our
           invasion is detrimental to them.
        \_ No this is NOT LIKE VIETNAM.
           \_ of course it isn't, but still we should do it right
             and do it cleanly, the more weapons we destroy the less
             will be available.
           \_ actually it is like vietnam.  even the casualty rate is
              comparable to vietnam.  Note that the hostile population
              under occupation (and in the north) in vietnam is like 10
              times the 5m sunnis, and vietnam war lasted about 7 years.
              600*10*7 gives 42000.
               \_ hahaa, go back to the books cuz you don't know squat
                  about vietnam, rates are nowhere near
                  \_ try harder
                     \_ I did the math.  The rates are 1/10th Vietnam rates.
                        \_ I am more interested in how US military fares
                           against guerilla warfare compared to during
                           vietnam times.  I have to conclude it's not
                           much better given that the hostile population
                           of 5m Sunnis is 1/10th the number of the
                           50m hostile vietnamese and the number of
                           casualties per year is also about 1/10th.
                           This demonstrates the limitation of US power
                           as an occupational force.  In conventional
                           warfare it now reigns supreme, but not in
                           guerilla warfare.
                           \_ The number of local people has nothing to do
                              with anything.  Your analogy is false.  Anyway,
                              the total number of American deaths so far is
                              trivial (except to the dead and their families
                              of course, but militarily meaningless).  The US,
                              Brits, and Canadians lost over 5000 men at DDay
                              on just the first day.  That was considered a
                              great success and much lower first *day* losses
                              than expected.  Militarily, we're not only not
                              losing but completely kicked and continue to
                              kick ass in Iraq.  The resistence is 99.9999%
                              ineffective.  The problems are diplomatic and
                              due to domestic weakness and lack of will on the
                              part of a minority segment of the American
                              population.
                              \_ False.  The size of the hostile population
                                 means everything.  That's why we cannot
                                 allow the shiites to turn hostile too.
                                 otherwise we are screwed.  Your D-Day
                                 analogy is the one that's ludicrous.
        \_ Nuke 'em.
        \_ i think the new war technics will likely involve crowd control
        and more police like tactics. Moving innocent civilians cleanly
        and safely to root out the bad guys is where new technology
        and new strategy will come in.
        \_ None of these will work. They either require huge amounts of
           manpower that the US can't/won't provide or they greatly subvert
           positive gains the US has made. And if you start popping off
           civilians, you're just making things worse.
        \_ (1) stop sending in unarmored vehicles without escort
               (put up roadblocks to prevent someone from accidentally
               doing this)
           (2) do the standard sweep they've always been doing, but more
2004/4/1-3 [Uncategorized] UID:12975 Activity:nil
4/1     Is it possible to use G++'s -g (debug symbols) flag with a project
        that is incrementally linked?  Any pointers?
2004/4/1-2 [Recreation/Activities] UID:12976 Activity:nil
4/1     Will we get any more snow in Tahoe this month?
        \_ link:www.weather.com/weather/local/USCA0584
        \_ light dusting of snow this morning.
2004/4/1-2 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:12977 Activity:low
4/1     I have heard it stated that our (the US's) system of
        Plurality/Majority elections discourage people from voting.  Now,
        I can see the reasoning here (I hate both presidential canidates)
        but I was curious if this claim can be backed up with numbers.
        Possiably comparing places of similar culture and
        circumstance that use the diffrent types of voting.
        \_ I'd say that's probably a specious opinion that was stated
           without much evidence to support it.  There's a lot of other,
           move provable reasons for the decline in voter interest in
           the US.  Also rarely mentioned, but a factor in decreased voter
           registration over the past 30 years has been an increase in
           immigrant, non-citizen population relative to citizens.
           I'm not trying to race-bait here, and its not nearly the only
           factor, but its often ignored when people decry decreasing voter
           participation.
           \_ Interesting.  Actually, that raises another question.  Why
              do people think that immigration has anything to do with
              race?  I've met immigrants of all manner of races, even...
              *gasp* white.
              \_ *I* don't think it has anything to do with race, of course.
                 I was trying to head off the usual motd flame war.  Not that
                 it will help.
           \_ So you're saying the ratio of immigrant to citizen is too many?
              \_ I didn't say that.  You're putting words in my mouth.  I was
                 just citing it as a partial reason for decreasing voter
                 registration.  In fact, if you take this into account, voter
                 registration amongst _those eligible to register_ hasn't
                 declined significantly since the 1970s.  Of course, it declined
                 markedly from, say, the 40s to the 70s in real terms.  I have
                 no problem with immigration.  Its more of an argument for
                 urging people to become citizens and participate in the process
                 than anything else.
        \_ Countries with proportional-representation-based voting systems
           have higher voter turn-out than countries that use first past the
           post (like the US).
           More info: http://www.fairvote.org/turnout/index.html
        \_ People don't vote because they think their vote doesn't matter.  It
           really is just that simple.
2004/4/1-2 [Uncategorized] UID:12978 Activity:nil
4/1     What were Cartman and his followers chanting in the new South Park?
2004/4/1 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA] UID:12979 Activity:nil
4/1     Today is the unofficial CSUA Twink Day. List your favorite twinks
        and tell us why you like/dislike them:
        achoi/choice:
        \_ nice guy, smart, and contributed to csua /bin
        cmlee:
        \_ posts clueless stuff
        kchang:
        \_ asian immigrant lila aaron psb!
        tom: ...
        \_ "you're dumb because you disagree with me"
2004/4/1-2 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:12980 Activity:high
4/1     Spammer gets seven years in prison:
        http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040402/325/eq4ri.html
        \_ Should be shot.
2004/4/1-2 [Uncategorized] UID:12981 Activity:high
4/1     teen posts nude photos of herself, charged with child pornography and
        child abuse: http://www.postgazette.com/breaking/20040329pornp6.asp
        \_ classic example of a big government running amok
2004/4/1 [Uncategorized] UID:29894 Activity:nil
3/31    OK, I'm bored, so here goes:
        http://www.jengajam.com/r/Saddam-Hey-Ya
2004/4/1 [Uncategorized] UID:29895 Activity:nil
3/31    Interesting/sad - woman motorcycling through the ruins near
        chernobyl.
        http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/chapter1.html
2004/4/1 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:29896 Activity:nil
3/31    GWB: Invigorating America's Youth:
        http://www.overspun.com/video/AmericasYouth.rm
2004/4/1 [Uncategorized] UID:29897 Activity:nil
3/31    Whatever gets you off, I guess (work safe):
        http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040331/325/eq0k4.html
2017/09/20 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/20    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:April:01 Thursday <Wednesday, Friday>