Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:March:19 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2004/3/19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Reagan, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12748 Activity:moderate
3/19    Proof that we are morally superior to the neocons.
        http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/03/19_neocon.html
        \_ Couldn't you have just pointed to http://kpfa.org and gotten it out of
           the way?
        \_ I'm still waiting for a definition of "neocon".  Other than "ooh,
           they're scaaaary."
           \_ I have posted this many times. Did you not see it, or
              do you disagree with the Christian Science Monitor
              defintion?
              http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/neocon101.html
              \_ Hadn't seen it.  I must have been too slow and missed it
                 before motd purging.  However, how is this different from just
                 plain conservative (at least the "what they believe") part?
                 Also, how does this definition of 'neocon' imply the
                 http://democraticunderground.com link's assertion that neocons have
                 "utter disdain for any and all governmental social
                 initiatives"?
           \_ I'm not sure if they call themselves neoconservatives, but
              here is a statement of principles by the guys who everyone
              *else* calls neocons:
              http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
              I would define neocon as someone who agrees with this set
              of principles.
              \_ "the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to
                 "override strategic considerations" -- Does that mean that
                 when Bush guts regulations neocons think it is bad (just
                 kidding)
           \_ "neocon = jewish."
           \_ I guess it's trying to distinguish this group of republicans who
              call themselves conservatives but whose policies don't match
              more traditional conservative principles, as e.g. Pat Buchanan.
              \_ Pat Buchanan is NOT a traditional conservative.  He is a
                 flaming moron.  It's like calling Trotsky a traditional
                 liberal.
                 \_ Your frustration is understandable but the comparison is
                    inapt. Buchanan would probably be satisfied with the term
                    "traditional conservative". If Trotsky (or Stalin) heard
                    you call him a "traditional liberal" he would have been at
                    best...displeased. He would probably have tried to have you
                    shot.
                    \_ Inept.  Actually their feelings on the matter are
                       irrelevant.  Both are poor choices to represent the
                       mainstream of the respective movements.
                 \_ I prefer Trotsky to Stalin.  Anyway, Stalin is neither
                    a liberal nor a real communist, actually.
2004/3/19 [Recreation/Food] UID:12749 Activity:low
3/19    Good lord:
        http://www.ifoce.com/records.php  -John
        \_ I never seen a man eat so many chicken wings!
        \_ Are those suicide scars on Sonya Thomas???   -rory
           http://www.ifoce.com/profile.php?action=detail&sn=20
           \_ She's single, she's hot, she eats like a pig without gaining
              weight (as long as there's a toilet nearby).  What more could
              you want?  So she sliced herself a bit?
              \_ They aren't REAL suicide scars. Remember the SysAdmin
                 motto: Down, Not Across.
                 \_ Sysadmin motto?  SAs don't commit suicide.  They find a
                    new job that pays more for less work until they eventually
                    get mid 6 figures for not showing at all.
                    \_ No, no, no, "Down, Not Across" is the goal you're
                       aiming to drive your lusers to.
                       \_ oooooh! I haven't had those for a while.  thanks
                          for clearing that up.
                          \_ Anytime.  Congrats on your long dry spell. Did
                             it take long to train them?
                 \_ Why is this?  It would seem like you get a more complete
                    severing of the artery if you go across.  Or is it a
                    matter of clotting?
                    \_ It's makes for a larger wound and impossible to clot.
                       You lose blood much quicker, lose consciousness faster,
                       and make it harder for you to be resuscitated.
                        \_ But what if you miss the artery/vein completely?
                           I guess I don't understand if you're trying to follow
                           the vein or cut across a couple.
                           \_ Follow the artery if you can.  A length-wise
                              cut means a longer wound which makes it harder
                              to clot; cross-wise means a tiny wound, which
                              will almost certainly clot before you bleed to
                              death.  Not sure where your artery is?  Make a
                              fist a few times and feel for the pulse, then
                              follow that up your arm.
2004/3/19 [Uncategorized] UID:12750 Activity:nil
3/18    YOU ARE EDUCATED STUPID!  YOU MUST SEEK COMPUTATIONAL EQUVALENCE!
        \_ Whoa!  That's deep!  You just changed my whole life!  Thanks!
2004/3/19-20 [Computer/Theory] UID:12751 Activity:low
3/18    I have a question for you theoretical CS types out there.  Has Stephen
        Wolfram ever actually contributed anything significant to the field
        of cellular automata?
        \_ Were you listening to Berkeley Groks too?  Wasn't he just
           describing CS?
        \_ I don't think so. It seems like he tried to take the concept and
           apply it to life, the universe, and everything, while being pompous.
           \_ When Wolfram was a physicist at Caltech, he did a bunch of
              pioneering work in CA (early '80s).
           \_ you must be talking about his already refuted, self-published
              tome
              \- stephan wolfram vs. william kahan in 10evans was one of the
                 high point of the last century. --psb
                 \_ high points of the 20th century?  okey dokey!  maybe you
                    lived in a different 20th century from the rest of us.
                    \_ were you there at kahan wolfram 1?  i can't speak to
                       the entire 20th century, but it certainly was one
                       of the high points of my life.  was there ever a
                       kahan wolfram 2?
                       \_ don't get out much huh?
                 \_ What happened?
                \_ Partha, for the benefit of mankind, would you describe it?
                   I am very interested, having been a student of Kahn and
                   a customer of Wolfram.
                   \_ i assume he is talking about this:
                      http://tinyurl.com/2vlae
                                \- this misses the 1+1 = 3 part. --psb
                      which doesn't really seem like any sort of highlight
                      except for flamemongers i guess.
                      \_ wow! that sure is cool.  and to think I was all
                         excited about the fall of the Berlin Wall and
                         Communism.  What a fool I was for missing out on
                         the really important historical events.
                         \_ i take it this means you were not physically
                            present.
                            \_ unless someone got stabbed while screaming,
                               "oh contraire, mon frere!" it isn't important.
              \_ Are you talking about A_New_Kind_Of_Science? Have you
                 read it?
2004/3/19-20 [Computer/HW] UID:12752 Activity:nil
3/18    Does anyone know of a library or someplace where one could take a
        look at the IEEE POSIX 2001 standard? Thanks.
        \_ Dunno about the library but I tried *very* hard to find it online
           last year.  I never got even close to a hint that it might be
           online somewhere.
           \_ well, it is certainly online, if you want to fork over
              something like $130 to the IEEE.
              \_ yeah, exactly my point.  it isn't online.
                 \_ sure it's online, but not accessible unless
                    you pay $130 to download it, or hack their site and
                    download a copy...
                        \_ duh.  enough, go away.
2004/3/19 [Reference/Religion] UID:12753 Activity:nil
3/18    I remember there is a Mormon here on Soda.  I got a stupid question
        which is not that offensive.  Does any Mormon still use Deseret
        alphabets today?  I would imagine it would of died out by now, but
        I have heard that it never did.  Is that true?
        \_ We're all around you.  And we're breeding.
           \_ Shall I compare thee to a cellular automata?
              \_ singular ---> automaton
           Oh, and I've never seen the deseret alphabet before.  Nice info
           about it at: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/deseret.htm
           -emarkp
2004/3/19-20 [Recreation/Food] UID:12754 Activity:kinda low
3/19    What culture has the healthiest food overall? Japanese?
        \_ Vaginins.
        \_ Vegans
        \_ Vegitirians
        \_ Vegitarianarian Cannibals
           \_ Vegitarianarian?  Is that a vegetarian Aryan (a meat Nazi?!)?
              Or does this have something to do with antidisestablishmentarians?
              \_ yes.
        \_ Just super-size at Mickey Dee's.
           \_ They are discontinuing super-size portions.
        \_ If the longest resulting healthy lifespan is the measure, then
           it would be the Okinawan diet, but that's just one part: add
           low stress, good attitute and physical activity and you get the
           longest lived people in the world.  And it's not genetic, Okinawans
           who move to the US and start chomping down Big Macs get fat and
           die early just like Americans do.
           \_ There's this guy who thinks calcium is a panacea and says
              Okinawans' health is because their water and other things have
              coral calcium in it.
           \_ low stress?  always wondering when the next batch of US marines
              going by will gang rape your 12 year old daughter?!
           \_ convert to Buddhism
        \_ Many Indians are vegetarian.  Is it healthy?
           \_ while vegetarian is good, curry is kind of fatty, and indian
              food is also high sodium, which is bad for health.
2004/3/19 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Domestic/Crime] UID:12755 Activity:high
3/19    Journalistic fraud that makes Jason Blair look honest.
        http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-03-18-2004-03-18_kelleymain_x.htm
        \_ He's a conservative, so it doesn't matter. It is only when
           the liberal media fakes stories that it is big news.
           \_ WTF?  String this guy up.  And any reporter who makes things up.
              You're an idiot if you think people en masse ignore fabrications
              because of ideology. - a conservative
              \_ Let's see if this becomes a big story, like the Jason
                 Blair thing. I predict that it will not.
                 \_ Um, I know it will not.  However, that's because a) it was
                    the NY F'ing Times, considered the standard for
                    journalistic accuracy, and b) it was the first big story
                    about journalistic fraud--first is always biggest.
           \_ reporters lie all the time, to promote their career, ego, etc.
              Journalists are scumbags just like lawyers.
        \_ Is he Jewish? http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-03-19-jerusalem_x.htm
           \_ What difference does it make?
              \_ Well it might affect what he was thinking, like was he just
                 cynically latching onto any sensationalism or did he have
                 some other motivations.
2004/3/19-20 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:12756 Activity:nil
3/19    When I do substr($string, x, 1) eq "c" in Perl, is it smart enough
        to do (string[0]=='c') in lower level, or is it dumb to do it
        like strcmp(string, "c")==0? In another word how much optimization
        does Perl perform? I'm asking because performance is an
        issue but I don't want to use C. ok thx
        \_ umm...why do you think strcmp(string, "c") would be so slow?
           oh, right, because you're an idiot.
        \_ Profile your code.  You will almost certainly be surprised to learn
           where the real slowdown is. -- ilyas
           \_ it won't be in this trivial string comparison, that's for sure.
              \_ Indeed not. -- ilyas
                 \_ makes me wonder what they're teaching in Berkeley CS these
                    days....
        \_ Use C or another REAL programming language.
2004/3/19 [Uncategorized] UID:12757 Activity:nil
3/19    humorous legalese:
        http://www.oxo.com/info/terms.html
2004/3/19 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12758 Activity:nil
3/19    Bush campaign gear made in ... Burma? link:csua.org/u/6hx
2004/3/19-20 [Recreation/Food] UID:12759 Activity:low
3/19    What variety of Mackerel is commonly served as 'Saba' in Japanese
        restaurants in the Bay Area?
        \_ it's pickled you know... it doesn't naturally taste like that!
           \_ I know, but there are a lot of species of mackerel and I'm
           \_ I know, but there are al ot of species of mackerel and I'm
              curious which one is served.
              curious which one is served.
              \_ the dead one.
2004/3/19-20 [Computer/SW/SpamAssassin] UID:12760 Activity:nil
3/19    I now have a 10mb LSPAM file.  Can I get rid of this thing so I don't
        have worry about my quota anymore?
        \_ man rm
        \_ Were you trying to amass a decent body of spam, or is that just
           the result of using ifile/spamassassin?  If a), then just train
           your categorizer and delete.  Otherwise, delete.
2004/3/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:12761 Activity:moderate
3/19    Taiwan's President narrowly escapes assassination:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3550517.stm
        \_ there are indications that it was staged by him and his campaign
           staff.  President Chen is trailing behind polls and he is doing
           everything he can to win the 20% swing voters' vote
           \_ urlP
              \_ http://www.csmonitor.com/earlyed/early_world031904a.htm
                 \_ There is no actual information in this post whatsoever.
                    For that, you have to tune to reports from Taiwan. (It will
                    hard to get any decent news about it in English.  Every
                    American news organization already equate DPP = democracy =
                    must be potrayed postively all the time.) There are various
                    pecularity, such as the hospital where Chen was sent after
                 \_ There are no indications in this post.  For that, you
                    the "assasination" was visited by Chen's security detail
                    for mysterious preparation *before* the "shooting," and the
                    have to tune to reports from Taiwan.  There are various
                    pecularity, such as the hospital when Chen went after
                    the "assasination" was visited by Chen's security detail
                    for preparation *before* the "shooting," and the location
                    of the bullet fragments and shells.
                    location of the bullet fragments and shells, etc.
              \- #t
              \_ I am not the poster above but after what happened in Spain,
                 this is a very natural thing to do, esp. with Mr. Chen's
                 (and his wife's) bribery scandal getting bigger and bigger.
                 Of course, this does not prove that he staged it, but really,
                 at this moment the only persons who can gain from an
                 "assasination" attempt are Mr. Chen's family and team.
                 \_ So you think scrubbing out the pro-splittist party chief
                    is of no benefit to the mainland??
                    \_ It wouldn't be wise to assasinate now, or ever.  Chen
                       is not more separatist than many others in his party or
                       even outside his party.  He is an opportunist who is
                            \_ so you believe he had himself and his vp shot
                               because he has some petty bribe scandal
                               brewing?  thats just nuts.
                       using this issue as a vote-getter.  If he goes, more
                       radical people are ready to replace him.  He has in fact
                       become sort of a liability for the separatist cause.
                       \_ A liability?  Say what?  How do you figure that?
                          \_ His (or his wife's) bottomless appetite for
                             bribe.
                            \_ so you believe he had himself and his vp shot
                               because he has some petty bribe scandal
                               brewing?  thats just nuts.
           \_ So is DU the proper liberal counterpart to FreeRepublic, or are
              we still waiting for the Bolshevik Daily to achieve extremist
              parity?
              \_ The democraticunderground is a respectable site.  Freepers
                 are frothing insane lunatics.
        \_ A bian a bian, go go go.
              \_ This is a non-sequitur.
           \_ When come november, we should expect an assassination attempt?
              \_ No, but after Spain got wobbly you can expect a terrorist
                 act to kill a few hundred people.  Something flashy with
                 pizzaz.
        \_ Is the KMT really the remnant of Chiang Kai Shek's Koumintang party?
           Those guys were a bunch of thugs...
           \_ Well, the DPP (the party of President Chen) is the
              reincarnation of the Taiwanese Communist Party, the TaiCom.
        \_ A bian a bian, go go go.
2004/3/19-21 [Finance/Shopping] UID:12762 Activity:nil
3/19    What is a cheap and secure way to check my credit report?
        \_ I think you are entitled to a free credit check every so often.
           \_ you are entitled to a free check after you are denied
              credit. also, sometimes some company will give away free
              credit checks. usually the "deals" type sites will let
              you know when that happens.
           \_ once a year, I think...?
           \_ where and how to get it?  I often get marketing calls and
              mails that offer to check my credit for $ >> 0.
        \_ Well there is always 'freecreditreport.com' but they will also try
           to sell you a service based on monitoring your credit erport.
2004/3/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12763 Activity:nil
3/19    Find out how much and to whom your neighbors gave presidential
        campaign contributions:
        http://www.fundrace.org/neighbors.php
        \_ Or, how I came to boycott that bakery I used to like down the
           street.
           \_ Because you found out the black muslim bakery is run/owned by a
              child molester and racist?
              \_ Wrong bakery.  Been avoiding the black muslim bakery for
                 yonks.
           \_ You stopped going to a bakery because they don't agree with
              you politically?
              \_ of course i did.  i don't support fascist bakeries!  no
                 cookies from BushCo Nazis!  No BushCo beer!
              \_ Raving motd satire aside, yes, I did.  I'm voting with my
                 dollars.  I don't support Bush, and I cannot, in good
                 conscience, support a business that supports him-- esp.
                 on the local level where my actual $3.50 in coffee and
                 bagels each morning is actually contributing to the
                 continued well-being of the business.  And, yes, I spoke
                 to the owner reasonably and rationally about why I was
                 going elsewhere.  He was sad to see my business go, but
                 adamant in his political beliefs.
        \_ Martin Kelly, CEO of Pyramid Brewery: $2,000 to Bush
           \_ OT but... I was standing on Shattuck and I noticed this familiar
              sweet, rich, funky smell and I couldn't identify it until I
              looked across the street and saw that Triple Rockwas brewing.
              Wort smells neat.
           \_ clearly it's a VRWC to get all liberal students drunk on bad
              cheap beer so they'll be too wasted to vote against BushCo!
              \_ Pyramid doesn't make bad, cheap beer, they make mediocre
                 microbrews.
                 \_ Bring back the Bison Brewery dollar beer happy hour!
                    \- you can lick the gutter out front for a similar but
                       cheeper experience. --psb
                       \_ Funny, Partha, I don't _remember_ stepping over
                          your sprawled body in the gutter in front of
                          Bison's after happy hour, but then, I _was_
                          usually pretty drunk.
                          \- that was a comment on the taste of their beer
                             not reflection on an experience of mine. --psb
                          \_ *I* remember stepping over (well, no really, it
                             was _around_) him but I don't expect him to admit
                             to that if he remembers it.
2004/3/19-20 [Computer, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:12764 Activity:kinda low
3/19    I bought a memory card from Frys.  I put it in my camera
        and successfully took some pictures.  The next time I turned
        on the camera to look at the pictures, it said "CF card
        error".  I downloaded a trial version of some software that
        can recover pictures.  (It shows only thumbnails unless you pay
        $30).  It was not able to recover my pictures, but it did find
        about 150 pictures that were not mine!  Presumably, someone else
        had problems with the card and had returned it.  And then I bought
        the same problematic card.  It's been more than 30 days since I
        first bought the card.  I would like for Frys to pay whatever it
        takes for me to recover the pictures, but I'm not even dreaming that
        this will happen.  I'm just hoping I can get a full refund.  But I
        bet I will have trouble with this since it's been more than 30 days.
        Even though it's been more than 30 days, do I have any legal right
        for my money back if it's reasonably obvious that I was sold defective
        merchandise?
        \_ did you try talking to them at Frys and showing them the other
           pictures?  [formatd]
        pictures?
        \_ Why don't you just buy another one of the same model and return
           the defective one using the new receipt.
           \_ Not yet.  Not sure how I will be able to do that, since I'd
              have to have my memory card hooked up to a computer with the
              right software on it.  Besides, how do they know that those
              150 pics were not taken by me?
              \_ [the broken merge 'feature' in motdedit is worse than just
                  getting things lost.  at least like that people didn't have
              150 pics were not taken by me?
                  a software driven excuse to be rude *and* fuck up the motd]
        \_ Purchase identical (shrinkwrapped) item.  Take it home.  Swith
           broken item for item in shrinkwrap.  Return recent package to store,
           since you purchased that one within the last 30 days.
           \_ Good idea, but the memory card is PNY and I've read on the net
              about people having similar problems with that particular brand,
              so I don't want to replace it with another PNY.  In fact, I
              already bought another card (Sandisk) not from Frys.
              \_ Use the above method to get a working PNY card.  Then do as
                 you please (gift, eBay, etc.).
           \_ Why do you hate capitalism?
              \_ Because of companys like Fry's.
              \_ I don't hate capitalism.  Fry's is free to have a more
                 restrictive return policy if they like.  I used this technique
                 to return some bad CD-R media a while back that I got as a
                 present (but dind't use until >30 days later).
        \_ I'm guessing you're screwed.  Fry's *may* give you store credit
           for the memory card, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  PNY has a
           warranty, and Fry's will probably tell you to go that route.
           Easiest thing is to but another PNY card, swap it for the bad
           since you purchased that one within the last 30 days.
           one, return, and repeat till you found one that works.  Yes,
           it sucks.  Tough luck with the Sandisk card, though.
2004/3/19-20 [Computer/Theory] UID:12765 Activity:nil
3/19    I read the link someone posted about Wolfram vs. Kahan. So maybe I'm
        ignorant, but it seems to assert that (1/r)^x r^x, for arbitrary r, is
        not 1. So, why not? Is it because of r=0?
        \_ yes.
        \_ KAHAN WINS!  GENGHISALITY!
        \_ Fractional powers can't be defined in a single continuous way for
           the whole complex plane. You can define a principal value, but
           it screws up equations like the above. E.G. r=-1, x=.5
           (-1)^.5 * (-1)^.5 = i * i = -1 != 1
        \_ Partha, would you please write an article describing W-vs-K?
           \- "go ask william what the wolfram said" ... talking to kahan
              is pretty much a guaranteed interesting experience. --psb
              \_ Some of us are do not live in berkeley anymore ....
        \_ And that was definitely the most exciting part of the entire 20th
           century!!  Yes, indeedy!
2004/3/19-20 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:12766 Activity:nil
3/19    On a Debian system with a mix of testing and stable packages, is
        there a way to list all the installed packages that came from
        the "testing" distribution?
2004/3/19-20 [Computer/SW/Languages/Functional] UID:12767 Activity:nil
3/19    I have had SBC/yahoo for a couple months but haven't finished the
        registration process that will offer me free goodies like email
        account, trade journal etc.  For those who did, are they worthwhile or
        just a giant spamming scheme?  Will they track and mine all my surfing
        and sell the results?
        \_ do the online registration but don't load any more software
           from them. The best deal is the 100MB yahoo email account
           which you can link to your current yahoo email account.
           \_ what can you do with a 100MB email account?  My mail box does
              not go beyond a few MB.
              \_ then you haven't been around that long.
2004/3/19-20 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Reference/Religion] UID:12768 Activity:nil
3/19    Why does whitey hate the Asian man so much?
        http://csua.org/u/6im
        \_ They didn't like him b/c he's Muslim.  At least get your trolling
           straight.
        \_ whiteys hate muslims more than they hate azns, get it right
           \_ Yeah but muslim and azn is more than whitey can even stand
              thinking about.
        \_ A Chinese born of Christian parents who converted to Islam and bred
           with a Syrian and fucked a White soldier's wife and felt Pity for
           captives of the State (a christian virtue) and looked at porn when
           he became horny.  He is guilty as hell.
        \_ why ask why? whitey is evil and must be destroyed along with the
           zionist entity and anyone to the right of b.boxer.
2004/3/19-20 [Computer/SW/Unix] UID:12769 Activity:moderate
3/19    Does Unix have a maximum number of files per directory?
        How does one get around this problem?
        \- this isnt a "unix" question but a file system one. "not really"
           is the answer [the most obvious limit is inode amount] but if you
           are using linear directory looks up and get into triple indirection
           performacne will be ass somewhere around 14,000 entries. --psb
        \_ Use VxFS (why does the motd censor not like this answer???)
           \_ Because it is a dumb answer.
              \_ It allows you create as many files per directory as
                 you want.
                 \_ Do you understand the difference between theory and
                    practice?  The OP is clearly doing something that seems
                    likely to push past simpleminded, brainless solutions.
                    Train harder, grasshopper.
                    \_ The OP is only trying to exceed a maximum number
                       of files per directory.  Train harder, flamer.
                    \_ Because UFS uses a linear lookup, while VxFS uses
                       a hashed sort. Why do you keep deleting this answer?
                       Because it makes you look stupid?
              \_ saying its a dumb answer is dumb. say why. dont censor.
        \_ Depends on OS, FS.  Google for "inode"
                    \_ Do you know how UFS hashes directory lookups?
                       Do you know how VxFS does? I do. You apparently
                       do not.
2004/3/19-20 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Computer/SW/Languages/Python] UID:12770 Activity:nil
3/19    Can anyone provide a reference to the origin of the term "mixin"
        (in programming contexts)? Thanks.
        \_ http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MixIn
           http://noframes.linuxjournal.com/lj-issues/issue84/4540.html
2004/3/19-20 [Science/Battery] UID:12771 Activity:nil
3/19    so why didn't the martian rovers use Solar Power cells so they
        can recharge and have endless trips instead of relying on batteries?
        \_ because solar isn't magic.  mars is much further than earth from
           the sun.
        \_ They do use solar. That's what all the panels on top are for!
           Did you somehow miss that?! --dim
2017/09/22 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:March:19 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>