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2004/3/17 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12713 Activity:nil |
3/17 http://csua.org/u/6gv Government officials insist that they never misled the public, and that they released in a timely manner all the information and evidence they had gathered. "We told the truth at all times to the Spanish people," Acebes said on Monday. In retrospect, however, there were signs that the government was at least selective in releasing information about possible culprits. -Washington Post \_ http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo \_ Consider, though, that there's never been a significant incident involving islamists in Spain, they have a long history of ETA bombings, and the March 11 attacks bore a lot of ETA hallmarks.) Had ETA been responsible, the PP's stance both on domestic security and its Iraq policy would have been boosted, whereas an attack by islamists would have underlined points made by the socialists--it's imaginable that this may have influenced the finger pointing, but it doesn't change what seemed pretty obvious at first glance. As for whether the socialists' victory is "knuckling under" to terrorists, that's another discussion. -John \_ I think you are being too generous here, John. The morning of the attacks, I heard someone from ETA's Sinn Fein say that they didn't do it -- he pointed out that ETA always provides a warning before they set off a bomb, and there was none in this case. And all the terrorism experts I heard said that it may have been ETA, but the MO was quite different from their past. Plus, the PP persisted in insisting that it was ETA for several days, despite mounting evidence to the contrary. \_ Point taken. Interesting you use the Sinn Fein analogy-- like the IRA, Sinn Fein is pretty fragmented since Spain & France started working together to smash them. -John \_ ETA MO is to set off a bomb and then see what the PR looks like and disclaim responsibility if the PR is negative. The ETA was stopped from setting off a train bomb just like this last year and last month was busted carting around a large amount of explosives. It was also reported that the explosives used in Madrid are the same ETA has used a lot in the past. So fingering the ETA was a good call at the time. Oh yeah, the ETA is also reported to have a new group of younger members moving into higher ranks that are much more aggressive than the original bunch. It made sense and was believable. Obviously finding al qaeda tapes, AQ agents and then a posting on an AQ web site last year saying that they could put the socialists in power if they timed it right is good evidence it wasn't the ETA but none of that was known that first day or so. \_ It was the omission of including AQ as suspects that ticked everyone off. There wasn't enough information at the time to make the call and laying blame the ETA without proof made it look politically expedient. \_ ETA was a good first guess. It was only 48 hours between the bombs and the polls opening. I think your depiction is really harsh. \_ You should really read the entire article. Then come back and post what you think. -op \_ Spain gave in to threats and voted to "appease terrorists" in the election Sunday that turned out a top U.S. ally in the counterterror war, the top Republican in Congress said Wednesday. ... "Here's a country who stood against terrorism and had a huge terrorist act within their country and they chose to change their government and to in a sense appease terrorists," Hastert said. -AP \_ And if the US had gotten more than Spain, Poland, and the UK to help police Iraq, the loss would be less apparent. |
2004/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12714 Activity:insanely high |
3/17 It is a cold day in hell when I agree with Patrick Buchanan and here I do: http://www.amconmag.com/3_1_04/cover.html \_ I think that guy is so all over the map politically that it's inevitable to agree with him on something eventually. Even a broken clock reads right twice a day. \_ No. He's very consistent. He simply doesn't fit your nice little left/right spectrum. Not all of us do. \_ Perhaps. More likely, it's because I don't agree with the jews, so the enemy of my enemy is my friend, on this neocons, so the enemy of my enemy is my friend, on this issue. \_ I'm with you on that one. I hate the jews, too, and if we [Yes, yes, you're very clever substituting "jews" for "neocons." We get it. Now fuck off.] \_ I'm with you on that one. I hate the joo, too, and if we leave the arabs alone for a while, I'm sure they'll eventually get it together and wipe them out. Just a few short years and the Zionist entity will collapse and the invaders are driven into the sea. all the lands will return to the rightful owners after the invaders are driven into the sea. I guess he is more of an isolationist, than some other label which people painted him. \_ He's always been an isolationist. This is nothing new. \_ GO PAT! GO! \_ Sure you do. You can spot a Right Wing troll from a mile away. \_ No, I was showing you what you sound like. Mockery is a very simple and common rhetorical technique that I thought even the motd could see and understand. I was mistaken. Next time I'll put <mockery></mockery> tags around it so dunderheads like you will know. \_ No one sounds like that to anyone, except in your paranoid and delusional brain. No one on the motd says "I hate the jew, too" except for Right Wing psycho trolls like yourself. Learn to distinguish between disagreeing with Isreal's policies and a desire to kill all Jews. Or forever be marginalized by normal, non-hate filled people. \_ You sound like that to me. Your petty insults don't change anything or cover your racist attitudes. It's odd how you went from calling Israel your enemy (your word choice) to simply 'disagreeing with their policies'. You're a hater and a racist and you're caught red handed smearing the motd with it. Tough shit, it's too late to pretend otherwise now. Why don't you just erase all this instead and pretend you're still a good and just person? \_ First of all, you are responding to a different person than the one who wrote the "enemy of my enemy" phrase. Not everyone who disagrees with you is the same person. Secondly, it is a phrase, not taken literally by normal, sane people. Does any individual consider themselves the "enemy" of a sovereign power? No one I know. And how is disagreeing with Likud's policies "racist" again? Are Isrealis a race? Is the Likud party a race? Awaiting your reply. The only one who said they hated all the jews was you, remember. \_ Note that the enemy phrase was applied to "neocons". --some other guy \_ Yeah, but psycho guy decided that he would change this into "jew" and then go on a rant about how anyone who disagreed with the neocons was really an Anti-Semite who wanted to kill all the Jews. Interesting political debate tactic, I must admit. \_ very interesting, I also agree with him in this regard. |
2004/3/17 [Computer/SW/Database, Consumer/Audio] UID:12715 Activity:nil 50%like:29878 |
3/16 [ car stereo query deleted because op has an attitude ] \_ What? I'm the original poster and this is the first I've even seen the thread. Why do you think I have "attitude"? I never even got a chance to see the replies. \_ "for my asshole. -op" \_ I think he meant "Car stereo query deleted because it attracted useful responses." \_ Whew! 'Cause I tried putting a DVD there and it broke. \_ there is no authentication on the motd, you know. -you |
2004/3/17-22 [Computer/SW/Database] UID:12716 Activity:nil |
3/17 Looking for Oracle DBA/expert in downtown Oakland. /csua/pub/jobs/SavageBeast/OracleDBA.txt |
2004/3/17 [Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12717 Activity:nil |
3/17 France: Ach, that Stoopid Bush. We should be nice to terrorists! BOOM! Whoops. http://csua.org/u/6h1 \_ Look, it's not that the french wants to be nice to terrorists or even muslims. They just want to be different from the Americans. It's an inferiority cplx. \_ Don't listen to what the French say, look at what they do. They are right there on the front line with us on the war on terror. It's easy for the French media and the average citizen to spout off whatever but it's the government that sets policy and it is a very pro-American policy no matter what they say in public to appease their media. I've been very pleased with the French response to terrorism and how closely they've worked with us. \_ everyone supports fighting terrorism, just not invading Iraq, which does not help in fight terrorism. \_ Way to dodge that red herring! \_ Uhm, ok, and that has exactly what to do with the price of tea in China? Or France? Or anything else I said? |
2004/3/17 [Reference/Religion] UID:12718 Activity:nil |
3/17 I thought this was interesting: In nature, there are hundreds of documented species that engage in same-gender sex, but there is one kind of "lifestyle" that is not found in nature: lifelong, voluntary abstinence. So, the next time some bible-thumping individual rants on about gays being "not natural", think about how celibate priests don't have an even remotely "natural" sex life. \_ There are also many documented cases of species engaged in infanticide and cannabalism. So are you suggesting that humans should engage in these activities with the sanction of society and the state? With loopy thinking like that I can justify just about anything. Anyway, the Old Testament preaches that humans are differentiated from other species, so your argument pretty much falls flat on its face. When religious types talk about homosexuality as being "unnatural" they mean it goes against their concept of what god meant for people, not animals. -- williamc \_ So homosexuality, infanticide, cannibalism are all natural. Shouldn't people condemn homosexuality by calling it 'sinful'? That would be much more accurate. The only problem is that it exposes the fact that their objection is religious, not that it somehow hurts society or nature. \_ Ummm... The only people I've heard call it "unnatural" are crazy rednecks. I've have heard people say it's not normal and it's harmful to society though... \_ When you say "only crazy rednecks call it unnatural" you're pre-defining the debate. It's a cheap rhetorical tactic that would get you kicked out of rhetoric 1a. \_ Sorry, you've mixed up your religions. Any "bible-thumper" would be a baptist or some such protestant religion. Not Catholic. Therefore, they would probably agree with you. Priests not being able to marry was one of the arguments for the reformation. Besides, depending on what kind of bible thumper you're talking to, they might just say that humans have all sorts of "natural urges" that should be quelled, and just list Homosexulality under that. Sorry. \_ Catholics disapprove of homosexual marriages. Please don't mislead. \_ You also have your sociology mixed up with your animal sciences. No one has tried to claim celebacy is normal. And one of those bible thumpers you hate so much would tell you that because Man is above Beast that we should not look to the animals for the correct way to behave or be closer to God. Sorry but you're not going anywhere with this stuff outside your own self reinforcing social circles. \_ I think the point is that the "unnatural" label doesn't work. You can still call it "sinful" if you wish. \_ Can I call it abnormal? I think unnatural works. How else would you describe the obvious disparity between how sex works, and how homosexuals practice it? Our organs and reproduction are clearly designed for opposite sex partners. There are cases of two-headed animals in nature but that doesn't mean that's "natural". Now homosexual attraction is more common but you can't just dismiss the unnatural argument as crazy. |
2004/3/17 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:12719 Activity:nil |
3/17 http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo Rumsfeld disclaiming the use of immediate threat in the push for war ... and then being presented with a direct quote contradicting him. \_ (I thought that last part was obvious from the URL) -op |
2004/3/17 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12720 Activity:nil |
3/17 John Kerry foreign policy speech. Who says he's not a leader? http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0317.html \_ Err.. this is the same guy who a few weeks ago was saying Bush was going too far. Let's flip a coin too see what side of the issue he'll be on next! \_ Nice use of talking points without reading speech. Excellent job of not thinking for yourself. Yay! \_ Oh, I read the speech. Mostly it was the usual political crap saying, "When I am president, money will fall from the sky, and [you whoever you are] will have the newest and best of everything! Don't worry, there will be no problems when _I_ am president!" \_ Nothing like the motd for cynicism, shortsightedness, narrowmindedness, and stupidity! \_ And insults with no point! And blaming everything on the guy you don't like! |
2004/3/17 [Uncategorized] UID:12721 Activity:nil |
3/17 "Free Hotmail users: If you do not wish to receive Hotmail member letters, you may close your Hotmail account." \_ And this is surprising how? Of course free service users will get ads. \_ does hotmail let you filter things based on patterns? just filter stuff from http://microsoft.com . i use http://catholic.org for free webmail, it's awesome. |
2004/3/17-30 [Computer/SW/Security, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:12722 Activity:nil |
3/17 What are some URL condensing sites? there's tinyurl, http://csua.org, what else? \_ http://hugeurl.com \_ My favorite: http://makeashorterlink.com \_ I like http://snurl.com. It does some cool stuff with the clipboard so you just have to copy, visit the site, and paste the url. No need to fill out a web form or anything. |
2004/3/17 [Consumer/Audio, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:12723 Activity:nil |
3/17 I want to change my stereo and add a DVD player. Anyone know of a good shop and a good brand? \_ Depends on your budget. Rotel and Parasound make well regarded entry hi-end stuff. Also check out brands like Nad, Adcom, B&K, etc. Nothing wrong with better quality consumer grade DVD players from Panasonic. There are a whole set of different brands if you want hi hi-end. I've mostly hacked the installation myself. It's really not that hard to hack on X10 stuff for home automation, so no reason to pay a custom installer if you can afford the time. \_ I've heard good things about Outlaw components if you don't mind buying stuff that 99% of the world has never heard of. They don't spend any money on advertising. \_ A friend has the now discontinued Outlaw receiver. There were some video features that never quite worked correctly, but 90% of the receiver worked well and sounded great. \_ I know you didn't ask, but if you are also looking for speakers, Ascend makes some great ones that are quite inexpensive. \_ Also check out the eponymous PSB. \_ I didn't know partha made speakers! \_ In fact he was hawking his speakers on motd, back when there was neither ebay nor craigslist. |
2004/3/17 [Uncategorized] UID:12724 Activity:nil |
3/17 Anybody have any stories they can share about the Sterling Institue? \_ Just say "no" if they ask if you want an anal probe. It's not as fun as they say it is. |
2004/3/17-18 [Uncategorized] UID:12726 Activity:nil |
3/17 who was the austin texas guy? if i were there RIGHT now THIS WEEK I would go see this tomorrow: http://www.sxsw.com/music/showcases/pages/6222.html - danh \_ SXSW is awesome. I went on Trilogy's dollar back in the .com era. |
2004/3/17-18 [Reference/Religion, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:12727 Activity:nil |
3/17 In American Pie, is Jim suppose to be Jewish? \_ James is a Christian name. \_ So everyone named James is Christian? \_ I would not try to claim that I know what every single person on the planet earth might decide name their kid. \_ He *looks* like a Jew, right? But he doesn't wear one of those beanie hates so maybe he isn't.... \_ the character's last name is "Levinstein". \_ thats a jew name? |
2004/3/17-22 [Industry/Jobs] UID:12728 Activity:nil |
3/17 Over 30 open jobs at Transmeta, mostly in the Senior Circuit Designer and Layout type of jobs, but also some test engineering and a couple of senior software positions. Sorry I can't be more specific, but there's 32 slots and you probably don't want them all here in bushy detail. Email me if interested. --lye \_ What's the salary for the Senior IC Designer? Thanks. \_ Don't know this information, sorry. --lye \_ Please post this on the India's job site. -- GWB \_ What is *your* plan to stop outsourcing to India? \_ nothing. Outsourcing is good for you if you still have a job. It allows companies to stay competitive. Do you want your company to shutdown and lay you off? -- GWB \_ ok so the troll doesn't have a plan, just negativity. \_ ok so the troll doesn't have a plan, just relativity. \_ Hey sir! I am trying my very best to protect your sorry ass company. -- GWB \_ but true. \_ ok so the troll doesn't have a plan, just relativity. sorry ass company. -- GWB \_ yawn. \_ 32? So you're starting over? \_ No, it's an expansion for a future product, I think. These are new positions, not old positions being refilled. Why do I get the feeling I've just answered a non-serious inquiry? --lye \_ it was semi-serious. the first products out didn't exactly take over the world after all the hype about killing Intel, etc, secret messages in home page, etc. \_ Yeah, true that. I didn't work there then, oh well. Surprise, they're still around! Anyway, they're only jobs...Some people need them. \_ That's cool. Never drink the koolaid at any company \_ oh. Your company is still alive? \_ what do you mean still alive?! My favorite simian stock \_ Is Ditzel still running the show there? Oh you poor pups. picker says the stock of lye's employer is a buy!: http://www.trudythemonkey.com \_ TMTA has $110 mill in cash and short-term investments. -tom \_ Is Ditzel still running the show there? Oh you poor pups. |
2004/3/17-18 [Politics/Domestic/California/Arnold, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12729 Activity:nil |
3/17 Are you making many post-college friends? \_ Yes: (1) got involved with community-based organizations serving Asian immigrants and Filipino Am. yuppies; (2) went to yoga centers; (3) volunteered to work on an indie film (which eventually got distributed by Sony Pictures); and (4) became a groupie of a Chicago alt-country band. Not bad \_ that's kind of gross. - danh \_ not *that* kinda groupie. -elizp for a neurotic introvert, and it's been fun. -elizp \_ I've got so many goddamn post college friends I really have trouble keeping track of them all. \_ http://www.plaxo.com!!! spam them enough and you won't have so many to keep track of. \_ Yes: mostly through work, some through old college friends, a few through hobbies. \_ I made lots of friends at http://freerepublic.com \_ Yes, mostly through work or friends of old friends I've known. |
2004/3/17-18 [Computer/SW/Languages/Java, Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:12730 Activity:nil |
3/17 How can I change the indentation level in xemacs when writing C and Java? I looked online, and through the help files but couldn't find anything. (It's currently set at 4, I want 2) -jrleek \_ I thought the motd censor liked technical posts. Why hasn't he answered this one? \_ The motd censor doesn't actually contribute anything. \_ Just to make it fair: all technical topics purged. So take *that* you motd censor bastard! Now you've got nothing to read and can go choke on your own delete key. |
2004/3/17 [Computer/SW/Editors, Computer/SW/Apps] UID:12731 Activity:nil |
3/17 I need to edit a PDF file, what's the best program to use? It's strictly text changes, no graphics/format alterations, so I'd prefer something not too expensive but effective. Cad-Kas's PDF editor didn't work too well, and a few others can't handle text when it's flipped 90 degrees. \_ Well, Acrobat (not Reader) is obviously the best choice. Fair warning, though, pdf isn't really made for editing. \_ agree with above. Acrobat version 6 is a blowed beast, though, so you are being warned. Moreover, not all PDF files are editable even if you have all the tools you needed. No, I am not talking about digital signature what not. I am talking about when PDF files are being made, there are number of things author can do which make PDF file editing difficult. First, he/she can convert everything into bitmap, in that case, you are out of luck. \_ Acrobat OCR is pretty darn good, actually. Secondly, if he/she embedded certain fonts inside the document, and if you don't have that font, I am not sure how would that turn out. -kngharv |
2004/3/17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:12732 Activity:nil |
3/17 Clearly, the motd consists entirely of people that have already made up their mind about whatever politician they're going to vote for or whatever the issues of the day/week/year happen to be. Any political discussion on the motd is completely pointless, so why don't we all just agree not to talk about it? Its just grating and annoying, and all discussions inevitably boil down into the same tired arguments. You're not convincing anyone and nobody cares, so just give up. Please. Spare us. \_ Or you could just erase everyone else's posts! Hey..... \_ Apparently already being done. Come on, you _know_ the motd is charged with political rants that you don't like, so drop out already. You stop reading, and I guarantee we'll stop annoying you. \_ Maybe because when people aren't being such spouting off and being arrogant, something entertaining slips through? Its been known to happen. Then again, maybe a plea for sanity is pointless - maybe Internet forums by their very nature simply bring out the absolute worst in people. \_ Absolutely true! And the only answer is to develop a really thick skin and not take it all so personally. \_ *And* get the fuck off the motd if the op doesn't like what the rest of us are talking about. \_ I learn new stuff from the motd all the time. But then again, I have not decided that it is all worthless ranting, like you have. -ausman \_ I very strongly agree with you. There are lots of online forums where there is some dominant ethos, and everyone else is an outsider. i think the motd is much more interesting because it's such a crap shoot what you're going to get on any given topic. And yes i've learned things and read thing I wouldn't have otherwise because of the motd. \_ I also concur. motd helped me get though Berkeley. I like hearing from crazy people, but it's nice to hear from some conservitive crazies too sometimes. \_ See, that's where I disagree. Its not a crapshoot. The motd response to almost any post on a political subject is completely predictable - c.f. Bush, Kerry, Isreal/Palestine, Iraq, gay marriage, outsourcing, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum. --op \_ You're entirely and 100% correct. You're figured out our Secret Plan To Personally Bore You To Death(c)! Now that you have it all figured out the only way to save yourself is to not play. We'll miss you. \_ You mean that people will disagree and post arguments for and against varying positions backed by urls? Yeah, I guess I agree with that. If you mean that you already know what those arguments will be, I think you are full of yourself. Tell me what the varying positions would be to a discussion about resetting the yuan/dollar exchange rate. -ausman \_ No one would express a substantive opinion. One of the anonymous trolls would say something inflammatory about the Chinese, and it would degenerate into discussion of the Nanjing Massacre, internment camps, and the atrocities of Maoism. -tom \_ if that were to happen, at least i'd learn something but the nanjing massacre, which i've never even heard of. \_ Nice troll. *clap* \_ you want to adjust the yuan/dollar exchange rate? you racist, neocon, commie queer lover! i hate you! \_ Not all the arguments are like that. Occaisonally they have some semblance of reasoned debate, for a while. Anything touching on Israel in any way becomes totally pointless however. \_ Isn't this true no matter where you are? Name a group of people past Jr. High Age that don't already have a set in stone opinion on Israel. \_ Since Jr. High, my opinion has changed as follows: "Israel is our ally and they're being attacked by terrorists" to "Arafat is being placed in a bad position and means well." to "Wow, the Oslo Accords look like a good solution." to "Arafat is an ass." to "Both sides have hard-line idiots who will prevent peace for a long time to come." \_ I would doubt that many intelligent people have a rigid position on such a complex situation. -tom \_ Anyone who actually takes the trouble to go visit is likely to have their eyes opened. \_ Of those who follow politics etc., they probably have certain ideas formed. But even Israelis don't have a unified stance on the Palestinians. We have a guy on motd who has one view and takes anything else as a personal attack. \_ That's the problem with the motd right there though. Most people probably want a place to inform each other about various entertaining stuff, job opportunities, notices, what have you. But due to a couple of people with some really serious axes to grind, its just an 850 line blob of the same old ranting garbage drowning out the useful stuff. And no, I am not the Humorless Motd Censor. --op \_ you're full of shit. just watch who posts for a day. there are dozens of people participating in the political\ discussions on any given day. I for one *only* log in for the political discusssions, and really really don't give a shit about some pc fan noise question or the latest linux distro. not that i delete them, i just ignore them. \_ Maybe we need a motd.politics? My point was that the axe-grinders pretty much routinely wreck whatever meaningful discussion might happen, but you'd rather just tell me i'm "full of shit" and thus inadvertantly demonstrate why the motd sucks. \_ Maybe you are right. Ask the politburo if you can do it. \_ You could just put it in /tmp. But fat chance of it really getting used. \_ Or you could create /tmp/motd.$USER and you could use that for discussion. |
2004/3/17 [Computer/SW/Unix, Computer/SW/OS/OsX] UID:12733 Activity:nil |
3/17 I have never programmed on pc, so here is a very basic question: does window comes with a free development package that is ready to use and fully functional, like xcode/project builder for os x or gnu stuff for unix? or do I have to pay $$$? \_ Cygwin. \_ what a useless response. op: this is NOT what you are looking for. \_ no, it doesn't include any dev stuff, but you can use free tools to develop full-featured applications: Environment: cygwin is good, MS offers a free Unix tools pkg Compiler: I use gcc on cygwin, or Sun's javac IDE: eclipse (java/c++), netbeans, emacs GUI building: netbeans (java), Qt (c++; your app must be GPL) Other: Python has some good toolkit support as well \_ doesn't gcc on cygwin generate binaries that also are dependent on cygwin? MinGW + Msys might be a good alternative. \_ there is a development kit: http://www.bloodshed.net Never tried, but a lot open-source software are developed using that. |
2004/3/17 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd] UID:12734 Activity:nil 50%like:30465 |
3/17 soda was very slow just now. What was going on? \_ The usual motdedit war? \_ This is often from spam flurries tripping all the spamassassin checks. |
2004/3/17 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:12735 Activity:nil |
3/17 Say I have a CGI in Perl and I want to call another script, and it happens to be another Perl script. How to invoke it without using system(...), which will actually make it slow? \_ make the other script a module and import it. \_ ``, system, or as the person above said, create a module and import it |
2004/3/17 [Computer/SW/Languages/Perl] UID:12736 Activity:nil |
3/17 In Perl, when I "use strict;", how do I declare a global array or global hash? use vars qw (@ASSOC, %KEYHASH); doesn't work... \_ At the start you can declare "my @array", and everything in that scope or below will see it. --scotsman \_ It should be: use vars qw(@ASSOC %KEYHASH); (no comma) I believe in perl >= 5.6 you can say: our (@ASSOC, %KEYHASH); --dbushong |
2004/3/17 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:12737 Activity:nil |
3/17 Anyone know how to increase the linux console buffer size? ie, the one you get with shift-pageup? thx. |
12/24 |