Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:March:12 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2004/3/12-13 [Computer/SW/OS/Linux] UID:12634 Activity:high
3/12    RedHat, Suse, or Debian? I am seriously thinking of installing
        one on my machine...
        \_ Free RedHat as you know is has reached it's end. RedHat 9 was the
           last of it. There will still be RedHat Professional, which is
           RHEL but only costs $90. I highly recommend Fedora if you want
           to keep up with the latest and greatest in Linux.
        \_ Die SuSe ich nicht fur die motdhozen unt warezhausen.
        \_ USE LINUX!
        \_ have you used linux before? you can start with Knoppix. It doesn't
           touch your harddrive, just boots from a CD and runs. it's useful
           for those who want to taste linux before they actually commit to it
           \_ Yes, I've used slackware back in the old days...
        \_ RIDE BIKE!
        \_ Debian. It's a communitty, not a corporation. It's the easiest
           to maintain. Once you've installed it, you can upgrade
           everything, including the kernel. No need to reinstall
           a net version later.
           \_ Suse detects the hardware for you, with Debian, do I have to know
              what my hardware is?
              \_ You want hardware detection?  Install Knoppix.  Knoppix is a
                 Debian distro.  Boot from the cd, then do a hdx-install.
                 Knoppix is the best HW detecting distro I've seen.  Then use
                 apt-get to get up to date.  Did that the other day at the
                 office, was the easiest linux install yet.
                \_ Debian's hw detection isn't as good as SuSE, but it is
                   fairly good. (SuSE isn't perfect either, we've had lots
                   of problems with video cards/fb's with SuSE 8.1, 9 and
                   \_ I don't understand why all distributions don't have the
                      exact same quality for HW detection.  Aren't the routines
                      open source and GPL??
                      \_ So?  That doesn't mean everyone uses the same one.
                         Each distribution has its own installer.
                         \_ Yes, yes, but underneath what is the excuse for not
                            borrowing the HW detection code for different parts
                            from each other?  Why reinvent the wheel?  Isn't
                            that supposed to be one of the benefits of OS?
                                \_ Not everyone wants to build all the bits
                                   the same way. RH and SuSE build the bits
                                   differently (incorporating different patches,
                                   testing different kernel versions, glibc
                                   version, XFree86 fb drivers, &c.). RH's
                                   hw detection requires you to have things
                                   built in the same way as RH builds them,
                                   since SuSE (and Debian) do things differently
                                   (for various reasons, i18n/l10n, stability,
                                   &c.) RH's stuff won't work for other
                                   \_ what?  I'm talking about HW detection,
                                      not how drivers are installed or what
                                      version.  The hardware is the same.  So
                                      why don't they all *detect* the HW to
                                      the same level of quality?
                   \_ which one is debian's hd detection? it doesn't detect
                      much for me.. do i need to run it manually?
                \_ Hardware is usually obvious. Read the numbers on the
                   chips. and '/sbin/lspci'. Google for specs.
        \_ If you have never used Linux before but have some familiarity
           with svr4 type systems (Solaris, HP-UX), then I would recommend
           RH 8 or 9. RH is easy to setup and provides a pretty good learning
           environment to get comfortable with Linux. If you want to deploy
           RH for some real purpose you may start running into problems with
           their default tool-chain (RH has shipped with buggy snapshot jvms
           and gcc versions instead of stable versions) and RPM-hell.
           If you have already used Linux, try Debian; it isn't as easy to
           get running but it is far more stable than RH and is much easier
           to maintain (apt is very nice).
           I've heard good things about Debian-Gentoo which is supposed to
           provide /usr/src and /usr/ports type source access but I haven't
           tried it out yet.
           \_ it's just gentoo, it's got nothing to do with debian.
                \_ Sorry my mistake. Someone at work told me that Gentoo
                   was part of the Debian GNU/{Linux,HURD} stuff.
           \_ Define what you mean by "RPM hell"
              \_ i imagine rpm hell is the situation where you're trying to
                 install an rpm not built by redhat inc. and there is a
                 bunch of other dependencies you have to find rpms for. this
                 doesn't happen in debian or gentoo because they have
                 centralized repositories for this stuff.
              \_ Rpm dependency handling is problem. Rpm determines the
                 dependencies of an rpm on files and libraries when the
                 rpm is built. If the system that you are installing the
                 rpm on has a different set of files and libraries (say
                 you've applied some security/stability patches) than
                 the system the rpm was built on you often run into
                 install problems forcing you to use --force or --nodeps
                 which can leave your rpm db in an inconsistent state.
                 RH frequently releases updates that must be installed
                 in some specific order otherwise you can't install all
                 the updates. The problem is also present in commercial
                 pgms that try and build one set of rpms for a large set
                 of systems (RH 6 and newer and most versions of SuSE).
        \_ What are you using now?  *BSD?  *Windows?
           URL self-explanatory.
           \_ Isn't that French? Plus it has all that gay star/magic motif.
              cf. TV magic queers.
              \_ you'd rather be running "potato"?
                 \_ woody !
                    \_ forget mr potato head, go with the sarge!
              \_ Try it.
        \_ Debian. It's maintained by a communitty, not a corporation. It's
           the most efficient to maintain. Once you've installed it, you can
           upgrade everything, including the kernel. No need to reinstall a
           new version later.
        \_ You should use SCO UNIX.
        \_ I like Suse, but ymmv.  I'd stay away from RedHat because they've
           abandoned non-commercial users.
                 \_ I don't have time to mess with Linux now. Back when I did,
                    Mandrake was actually the first one I tried. I don't really
                    see the point of Mandrake now, it seems redundant.
                    If I was going to use one now I'd probably go with Gentoo.
                    I don't know what I'd use for "real work".
2004/3/12-13 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:12635 Activity:high
3/12    Why does the Chinese govt. care about forcing WiFi chipset makers to
        support WAPI?  Is it beaurocrat muscle-flexing, technical advantages
        of the spec, or added dissident-spying features?
        \_ They know they have a lot of market muscle. So they want to use
           that to help the Chinese tech industry. Foreign companies have to
           license WAPI from China and basically share technical know-how
           when implementing it. There's no real technical reason for it.
           They're trying to do this with DVDs as well, with their "EVD".
           I understand the logic, but still think it's a bad way to go about
           it. When they split the market for everything it's just annoying
           for people who travel, and for companies who need to make the
           different versions. But hey, more useless tech jobs for us!
        \_ The reason is actually a lot benign than that.  China, like
           rest of the (semi-conductor) manufacturing powerhouse, need to pay
           royalties for producing equipment that is in compliant of the
           standards adopted by the West. This Royalties and license fees
           can be a significant cost to the equipment they manufacturs.
           Unlike Korea, or Taiwan or Singapore, which essentially said:
           "we got bullied, but there is nothing we can do about it."  China
           is flexing its market muscle, coming up with thier own standards
           so they don't have to pay those IP-related fees.  Wifi is just one
           of many moves that China made recently (heard of TDS-CDMA?).
           Where to go from here is anyone's guess.  If I am the Premier of
           China, I would eventually use these home-grown stardards to
           influence the existing one, thus, neogiate a better term for
           licensing technology such as GSM and other specifications.
           However, there is an undercurrent of unreasonable national pride
           beneath all these, which may cause Chinese market isolated from
           rest of the world... similiar to what happened to USA and Japan.
           And... China's market is going to be too big to be ignored by
           anyone and thus, they can get away with all that.
           \_ I was unaware that there are royalties for WEP...
                \_ I thought WEP encryption was lame anyway?
           \_ Everyone keeps saying China's market is too big to ignore but
              doesn't most of China still live in small villages growing rice?
              \_ you are correct.  the rural urban breakup has gone from
                 80-20 to 70-30, but it is still mostly rural. OTOH, 30%
                 of 1.3 billion ain't bad.  WSJ says China is already
                 the world's biggest beer market.  I didn't read the
                 details but I would guess it's by volume consumed not
                 average price * volume consumed, cause they drink quite
                 a bit of cheap local brew.
                 \_ So are you saying the 'China is a huge market' thing is
                    for real or bullshit?
                    \_ I am saying it's a huge market for beer.
                       \_ But only cheap local beer, right?
                 of 1.3 billion ain't bad.
           \_ Well said.
           \_ So it's basically "We're really big.  If you want to sell us
              stuff you'll have to give us tech know-how and a discount on
                \_ the WSJ had a story a few weeks ago about how GE
                   wanted to sell power turbines to the Chinese market,
                   but in return the Chinese government wanted significant
                   discounts AND the plans to the technology used in
                   making the turbines so they can make it themselves
                   cheaper down the road, stuff that GE has invested billions
                   in over the years.
                   \_ Was GE stupid enough to do this?
                      \_ According to the article, they reached a compromise
                         - some technology transfer but the most leading
                         edge part was kept secret.  GE had to compromise
                         a little because otherwise China will just go to
                         European companies.  The good thing is, as the
                         article noted, often the transferred technology
                         quickly becomes outdated as even newer technology
                         becomes available.  The technology itself is
                         important, but even more important is the ability
                         to invent new technologies.
                         \_ I remember the article quoting a chinese
                            manager saying that, in technology transfers,
                            the foreign companies show them what to do,
                            but not why they do it, and not how they discover
                         to invent new technologies.
                            that's the way to do it.
2004/3/12 [Finance/Investment] UID:12636 Activity:nil 75%like:29867
3/12    What's the best/cheapest online brokerage these days?
        \_ freetrade offers 20 free trades per month.
        \_ I use scottrade, which is cost effective if you don't trade often.
           But if you trade more than twice and less than seven times a month,
           I have a co-worker who started using sharebuilder for a flat monthly
        \_ OByermom
        \_ I've been using Ameritrade for some time. I don't know if they
           are the cheapest but I've never had problems with them and they
           provide an acct exec for people with more that $50k so that you
           have someone to talk to if there are any issues with your acct.
2004/3/12 [Transportation/Car/RoadHogs, Transportation/Car/Hybrid] UID:12637 Activity:very high
3/12    I know this is a liberal pipe-dream, but imagine that, instead of
        spending $87B on Iraq every year, hundreds of billions on tax cuts,
        and the prescription drug [company] benefit, we spent $300B a year
        on a simple program: Hand in any car that gets less than 30 MPG and
        you can go out and buy a 50+ MPG hybrid car for FREE.  We could replace
        15 million cars a year on this program, and oil imports would soon
        drop like a rock ... This seems a lot simpler than invading country
        after country, plus domestic car manufacturers would quickly start
        cranking out competing models so it would help the car industry too.
        People want to drive big SUVs, not hybrids but I'll bet plenty of
        people would switch if you get a new car for FREE.
        \_ Ok, great, and where does the power come from for these cars?
           Hybrid cars dont make power from thin air.  It's a hybrid of a gas
           engine and a battery.  The power for the battery comes from either
           energy drained off the gas engine and thus reduces MPG and/or from
           an electric socket.  The power for that socket comes from...? Yep,
           you guessed it, burning oil, coal, or nuclear.  I won't even go
           into the abuse your program will cause when we suddenly see the
           price of broken ancient $150 gas guzzlers go up just so people can
           turn them in, nor will I mention that oil is not the source of
           Islamic terrorism.  It isn't a liberal pipe-dream.  It is just a
           \_ I don't think the point of an electric or electric-hybrid car
              is to get energy for free. It's to improve efficiency. Electric
              cars (that plug into a socket) use energy generated from a
              gas turbine power plant (or nuclear, solar, hydroelectric,etc.).
              Gas turbine engines are far more fuel efficient than piston
              engines. Hybrid cars work under the principle of using a low
              power engine (which tend to be more efficient than a high
              powered one) and using that to recharge a battery.
              \_ plus the battery allows regenerative braking, and shutting off
                 the engine quickly when idle.
           \_ Pretty much no hybrids on the market are built to recharge from
              an outside electricity source -- you are thinking or pure EVs,
              which are pretty much on hold. OP is referring to the reduction
              in required petro due to increased fuel efficiency alone and he
              is correct that the change would be dramatic. Hybrids can get
              double the mileage of standard vehicles.
              \_ Most of the milegage gain is from making the cars lighter.
                 \_ Must research before talking out of ass. Apples vs.
                    apples, hybrids are heavier.
              \_ Let's assume we replace around 20% of all cars (because not
                 everyone can or wants to trade-in).  We'd cut automotive
                 petroleum use around 10%, and total petroleum use ~5%.  We'd
                 probably replace ~30 million cars at a cost of ~$60 billion.
                 $60 billion seems a bit high for a 5% drop in oil use.
                 \_ To my mind that depends how much of a petro decrease would
                    be sufficient to no longer require massive military
                    operations every few years. The cost of the current Gulf
                    adventure is at about $105B.
                    \_ We're not there for the sweet,sweet oil.  We're there to
                       battle Islamic terrorists who were operating freely
                       under a secular Stalinist dictatorship.
                       \_ Whoah. Somebody believes this?
                          \_ It's probably just sarcasm, but yes, some
                             people actually believe this.
                    \_ The 105 includes Afghanistan but anyway....
                       \_ No. Total appropriations in the two wars so far
                          have been about $150b.
                          \_ Oh, I thought you meant the current war plus
                             afghanistan, not gw1+gw2 and not afghanistan.
                             The numbers are similar.
                       \_ The 105B is for Iraq alone, but anyway...
                          \_ It's always fun to play with numbers.  You do
                             understand that a lot of that money would have
                             been spent on people, weapon's maintenance and
                             training anyway, right?  Probably not, but it's
                             cool to think you know what you're talking about.
                             Gives you that "I'm smarter than you" feeling of
                             superiority even if it's false.
        \_ I like that idea, but I think there is a better way to spend the
           money.  How about instead of buying efficient cars for everyone, we
           give everyone a lobotomy so they won't _like_ gas-guzzlers (and
           while we are at it, we can make sure they won't discriminate based
           on race, or want a handgun in their home).  In fact, we might as
           well make sure they will all agree abortions are ok.  Sure, it will
           be expensive, and there is a slight loss of free will, but think of
           how much better off our society will be! -- ilyas
           \_ that was an awesome ilyas style rant.  it's quite easy
              to poke fun at people truly concerned with how global
              energy resources are being rapidly depleted without offering
              anything remotely like a viable solution by somehow linking
              this all to gun ownership, abortion, and paranoid extreme
              libertarian sexual fantasies.
              \_ (a) The op was a troll, not a concerned citizen.  Buying
                     everyone a hybrid is a stupid idea for practical reasons
                     (as others pointed out), as well as moral reasons.
                 (b) I do have an alternative.  Do nothing (at the government
                     level).  Let's check back in 20 years to see who is right.
                     If I am wrong, I ll eat my words, like Mr. O'Reilly did.
                     Will you?  You didn't even sign your name. -- ilyas
           \_ [ non-sequitur deleted ]
              \_ Did that deletion make you feel better, though?
                 \_ The non-sequitur wasn't really insulting, but it was
                    random.  Patriot Act?  wtf?
                     \_ Ah. So ilyas jumps from hybrids to lobotomies to
                        abortion, but my extending his statement about "loss
                        of free will" to the most recent source of govt
                        infringement of civil liberties is a non sequitur.
                        Just making sure I follow.
                        \_ You are barking up the wrong tree.  I don't like
                           the Patriot Act.  I also don't like grand schemes
                           for 'societal betterment' at taxpayer expense, which
                           was the point I was trying to make in that clumsy
                           way of mine.  Also, I was under the impression the
                           main danger of the Patriot Act was the increase
                           in spying powers of the government, rather than
                           explicit prohibitions.  The only possible relevance
                           explicit prohibitions. -- ilyas
                           of PA to op's post is that it is "a bad thing the
                           conservatives did" rather than "a bad thing a
                           liberal is proposing we do."  You can always make
                           another thread to laugh at conservative stupidity,
                           there is plenty to go around. -- ilyas
                           \_ Invading Iraq is a pretty grand scheme and it
                              has cost a fortune.  So far the big results are:
                              Saddam Hussein in jail so he can no longer
           \_ Your reaction is very interesting, ilyas, especially all the
              extensions you make. Did somebody maybe press a button?
              which use Li, not Pb.
                              threaten us with non-existant WMD, Iraq going
                              from oil exporter to oil importer, everyone in
                              the world even MORE pissed off at us, and 500+
                              soldiers dead.  My point was, if we are going
                              to spend billions and billions of dollars, why
                              not just spend directly on stuff that we know
                              will actually make a difference as opposed to
                              stuff that might fix problems.
                              \_ I thought I was the only conservative
                                 isolationist on the motd.  Did you vote for
                                 Pat, too?
        \_ Hybrids are a ruse.  They make people feel better about wasting
           resources--it's like residential recycling programs, which make
           practically no impact on resource usage.  If we really wanted
           50 MPG cars, we could do that with or without making them hybrid,
           and hybrids have additional toxic waste problems.  -tom
           \_ By toxic waste, surely you're not refering to the batteries,
              which use Li, not Pb.
           \_ Yes, some smaller cars are already close to 50mpg but it would
              mean making them even smaller and lighter which seems unsafe.
              \_ bigger, heavier cars are more dangerous than smaller, lighter
                 \_ no.
                    \_ do you not understand the concept of kinetic energy?
2004/3/12 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:12638 Activity:low
3/12    Can't his advisors get Kerry to STFU and stop mouthing off?
        \_ Can't his advisors get Reverend Moon to stop trying to destroy
           our government?
2004/3/12 [Computer/Domains] UID:12639 Activity:nil
3/12    Can I provide a PO Box when registering domain?  I didn't find a rule
        against it.
        \_ If you've ever done a whois you'll see other people put in all
           sorts of bullshit.  This is the internet, there are no rules.
2004/3/12 [Computer/Domains] UID:12640 Activity:nil
3/12    What's the cheapest place for registering a domain (or is there a
        comparison shopping engine for that?)
        \_ I really like  They're pretty cheap and I've never
           had bad service from them.  -John
        \_ I had one domain with and two with <DEAD><DEAD>.
           stargateinc recentely raised their fee whereas godaddy's fee went
           down since I first registered.  I just finished moving two domains
           from stargate to godaddy as well as registering another one.
        \_ I've used godaddy in the past.  This time I went with joker.
           Other ones I've looked at were gandi and dotster.  NSI can suck it.
           \_ Why did you not use godaddy this time?  The only time I used
              stargate instead of godaddy last time was because godaddy doesn't
              provide free dns service.
2004/3/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Foreign/Europe] UID:12641 Activity:low
3/12    Might be a nice gesture to drop some flowers at the Spanish
        consulate or something.  They were pretty decent 2 1/2 years
        ago.  -John
        \_ never knew the motd was so kind.
           what was the motd like on 9/11/2001?
           \_ IIRC, motd was shut down for several days because of excessive
              kindness.  I believe the unofficial part was made less publicly
              accessible due to kindness poisoning also.
              \_ I believe it was given a cooling off period because a few
                 jackasses were talking about taking revenge on any "towelhead"
                 they saw.
                 \_ It was shut down because paolo's (he of the every-3-minute
                    MOTD deletion) girlfriend complained.  -tom
                    \_ And she was damned right to do so.  Did you read some of
                       the posts she included in her email?  It was more than
                       casual race baiting; people were talking about guns.  If
                       nothing else, that sort of thing would have gotten the
                       csua shut down if it had been made public.
                       \_ You can't shut down an organization because it
                          provides a forum for wackos.  Berkeley won't get
                          shut down because of all the nutjobs on Sproul.
                          In fact, you put yourself at more risk by attempting
                          to control a forum, because then you implicitly
                          are approving everything that shows up in it.  -tom
                          \_ I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.
                 \_ Kind of OT, but what kind of relegion is Sihkism?  All I
                    know is they don't cut their hair, they wear a turban and
                    carry a ceremonial knife.
        \_ what do you mean pretty decent 2 1/2 years ago?
                \_ Meaning that after 9/11 a whole lot of people in Spain
                   and other Euro countries were pretty consoling and tried
                   to make whatever symbolic gestures they could.  Not
                   a big deal practically speaking, I guess, but I think it
                   meant a lot to them.  Dunno, you decide.  -John
        \_ Have you ever considered putting flowers in front of the Israeli
                \_ Because that's not terrorism, it's a war.
                   (and "war on terrorism" doesn't count)
                   \_ oh, so you think it's ok if Israeli rolls in the tanks
                      and just flattens all the arab areas?  After all it's
                      war and you've just said that killing civilians is ok.
                        \_ good attempt at a troll.
        \_ Why does the Basque people want independence from Spain?
           \_ The usual. They feel they are oppressed and ignored by the
              Spanish political and social support system.
              \_ Ask not what you can do for your country but what your country
                 can do for you!
           \_ Why did the Joos want their own country?
2004/3/12 [Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:12642 Activity:moderate
3/12    I'm very very impressed at how quickly the motd formatting god
        formats my intentionally ill formed posts. I'm wondering if it's
        actually a croned formatting script or something, and if so, can
        you please post the script? Thanks.
        \_ It's no script.
           \_ That's no moon.
2004/3/12-13 [Uncategorized] UID:12643 Activity:low
3/12    Will you ever admit you are depressed?
        / Uh, why wouldn't you? Half of the fun  \
        \ of being depressed is wallowing in it. /
                \   ^__^
                 \  (oo)\_______
                    (__)\       )\/\
                        ||----w |
                        ||     ||
           \_ denial stage.
        \_ can you draw one with primary and secondary sexual characteristics?
           \_ never heard of cowsay?
2004/3/12-13 [Finance/Investment] UID:12644 Activity:nil
3/12    Ugh!  Why is the online broker thread deleted?!  Stop being a
        selfish self-important asshole!
        Recommendation on online brokers -
        \_ I use both scottrade and ameritrade (datek was bought out).
           advantages of scottrade:
                * lower commission for market trades
                * low key branch offices where you can deal with real people
                  if the need arises (mine have 3 persons there), and you can
                  call them instead of some anonymous call center.
           advantages of ameritrade:
                * lower commission for limit trades
                * shorting works (shorting at scottrade always results in
                  a message saying "please call your branch office",
                  and sometimes they can't get the shares I want even
                  when I call them.
                * extended hours trading
2004/3/12-13 [Computer/SW/Languages/C_Cplusplus, Computer/SW/Languages/Misc] UID:12645 Activity:nil
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        ostspay. Iway'may onderingway ifway itway'say actuallyway away
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        \_ It's no script.
           \_ That's no moon.
        \_ Why do YOU care?
           \_ Wow, motdedit fixed up my post pretty funny.  This was
              supposed to be on the Jessica Lynch post, but someone
              deleted it.  I can't say it's any less applicable here
        \_ The motd formatting devil was here
        \_ I'm pretty sure there is no script as this is a pretty complicated
           problem (context sensitive flow analysis with statistical
           inference, etc). However, I do think that whoever does the
           formatting is equivalent a very complicated finite state automaton
           that runs in an infinite while loop.
           \_ it's not that hard.  parse the motd looking for a newline
              followed by a number to get the start of a post, then anytime
              you see a "\_" or "\-" preceeded by tabs or spaces you get a
              change in authorship.  the actual reformat is trivial.
                 FUCK its hard because there are so many corner cases. For _|
                 U example, suppose I interrupt your line in the middle, then
                 C your parser will get fooled. The other example is if I
                 K start posting in ascii pictures. Then what if I jive your
                 F content? And what if the indentation IS indeed unusual
                        like a C/Java code? ANd what if I use letters
                           I_ to indicate a response? And the list goes
                              on and on, but the point is, it's very easy
                              for the naked eye to catch infinite weird
                              cases, but putting them into smart/self-learning
                              generic rules is just as hard as writing
                \_ Corner cases?  fuck em, its the motd.  this isn't one of
                   hilfinger's courses.
                   \_ I am Gunnery Seargent Hartman, your Senior Drill
                      Instructor.  From now on, you will speak only when
                      spoken to, and the first and last words out of your
                      filthy sewers will be "Sir!"  DO YOU MAGGOTS UNDERSTAND
                      \_ SIR YES SIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2004/3/12-14 [Politics/Domestic/Election, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:12646 Activity:moderate
3/12    American Research Group: Kerry Increases Lead Over Bush, Democrats more
        united than Republicans:
        \_ If I was a foreigner I'd be cheering positive Kerry news, too.
           \_ why?  foreigners cheer for bush.  outsourcing, big trade
              deficit all good for foreigners.
              \_ gee, and here the left has spent 3 years telling us how the
                 rest of the world now hates us because of bush.  which is
                 it?  having your cake and eating it too?  don't be stupid.
                 \_ oh, that's mostly just the nato allies, and some moderate
                    used to be friendly muslim nations.  But India and
                    the east asian nations love bush.  In short, the
                    ones with whom we should have good relationships
                    hate us, while those that take advantage of us love
                    us.  Bush screwed up both politically, and
                    \_ not really.  Which East Asian (i presume you are talking
                       about north east asian countries) you are talking about?
                       Anti-American sentiment is running all time high here
                       in North East Asia.  South Korea's president
                       in North East Asia.  South Korea's president won
                       won election on his tougher stands against Americans
                       (even though it's all election rhetrics).  In short,
                       many countries think Bush is being a big bully, which
                       has a lot of truth in it.
                       \_ there you go.  even s. koreans, who honored the US
                          as an old friend by sending troops to iraq, think
                          the bush gang is a big bully and warmonger.
                          \_ no this is just a case of "what have you done for
                             me lately?"  france is the ultimate example of
                             this.  without the US france wouldn't exist today.
                             how much thanks do we get for that? its just the
                             way the world is.  everyone has their own best
                             interests at heart which makes sense and is the
                             way it should be.  this is totally normal and has
                             nothing to do with who the president is.  if the
                             rest of the world loved our president i'd wonder
                             why and what it was costing *me* and my country
                             so the president can feel popular around the
                             globe.  i'd vote against the residing president
                             on that basis alone.
                             \_ without France, there will be USA today.
                                There are more casuaties on the French side
                                than American soldier during the Revolutionary
                                \_ yes and so what?  at what point did we
                                   backstab france?  this has nothing to do
                             on that basis alone.
                                   with anything i said.
                             \_ huh?  so you prefer that the rest of the world
                                hate us like say how they hated the
                                soviet union?  that will be proof for you
                                that we have a good president?
                                \_ they didnt hate the soviet union anymore
                                   they ever hated us.  they were just the
                                   other super power and all the little
                                   countries you're so concerned about played
                                   the 2 off each other for most of the 20th
                                   century.  hating us isn't proof we have a
                                   good president, liking us isn't proof we
                                   have a bad president but each is evidence
                                   in that direction.
                                   \_ Complete bullshit. Who loved the Soviet
                                      Union? Pretty much all of Europe admired
                                      the USA and most of the rest of the world
                          the bush gang is a big bully and warmonger.
                             on that basis alone.
                                that we have a good president?
                                   have a bad president but each is evidence
                                   in that direction.
                                      too. The USSR was simply an empire, and
                                      only opportunist dictators found profit
                                      in alliance with it.
                                      \_ no one ever said anyone loved the USSR
                                         where are you getting this shit from?
                                         if youre going to post please try to
                                         read what you're replying to and dont
                                         reply to your own self created straw
                                         man arguments that others never made.
                                   \_ I think you've got the two directions
                                      confusd.  each is evidence of the other
                                      direction.  And no, it wasn't about
                                      playing offthe two superpowers.  It had
                                      always been about supporting the US for
                                      what it respresented.
                 \_ Why are you guys babbling about foreigners?  The link is
                    a poll of AMERICANS.
                    \_ Because, if you read a news paper or read it online,
                       you'd know about Kerry's recent quote about unnamed
                       foreign leaders who are pulling for him.  Of course this
                       was a provable lie, but hey, it's only politics.
2004/3/12-13 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:12647 Activity:kinda low
        (headphones only)
        \_ and this friends, is why you remove your HD *before* sending it in
           for service... oh yea... and have backups anyways.
        \_ Oh my god -- that's freaking horrible!
        \_ Ha ha! What a dipshit. Is that for real? It sounds like he says
           "Canon laptop computer"... I didn't know they make computers.
        \_ He seemed a bit upset.  I sent mine in with the drive but I didn't
           care if I never saw any of the data again.  It came back ok.  Poor
           stupid bastard....
2004/3/12-13 [Computer/SW] UID:12648 Activity:nil
3/12    I want to find the inflation rate and cost of living changes from
        2001 to now.  Does the government have that on some website?  I'm
        not getting any love from google.  Thanks!
        \_ CPI. Train harder and you will find it on the web.
           \_ Thanks.  I didn't know what it was called.
              \_ Hitler.
                \_ WHAT???
2004/3/12-14 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China, Politics/Foreign/Asia/Taiwan] UID:12649 Activity:nil
3/12    So Taiwan seems to be a pretty developed country, why is it still
        considered a third world country?
        \_ state your source.
        \_ because they are not yet white and the quota for nonwhite is 1.
           \_ idiot, why do you even bother wasting bits with your racist
              hateful shit?
           \_ did you really go to cal?
        \_ because they don't have the political, economic, military, or
           diplomatic power to be considered a major power.
           \_ don't forget the congressional brawls.
              \_ hey, we've got them too now! - random Korean guy
        \_ Taiwan is *NOT* a developed region,  not even close.  For one thing
           Taiwan is lack of rule of law.  This is a major issue which most
           American has overlooked because it is not as cachy as "democracy"
           and "human right" etc et.  Mind you that rule of law is the
           fundamental building block of democratic government, and a democracy
           without rule of law is actually in many ways more chaotic than
           dictatorial form of government.  Things you have taken for granted,
           such as (relatively) independent judicial branch does not exist
           here.  Law enforcement is selective, tend to be charged with either
           political motive or influenced by bribe.

           Infrasture wise, when you step out of Taipei, you will find that
           Taiwan is still pretty damn underdeveloped.

           Even in Taipei City... give you an example, the waste water
           treatment plant just went online recently.  Can you imagine a city
           of 1.7 million live on local septic tanks?

           Lastly, Taiwan is not a country.  The Constitution of Republic
           of China state that Taiwan is part of China and the constitution
           is designed for entire China in mind.  Read them if you can actually
           read Chinese.
           \_ I like that argument for the annexation of Taiwan.  "Our
              Constitution says so!"  If only the Germans had amended
              their Constitution to say Austria, Poland, the Low Lands,
              France, etc. were a part of the Reich, there wouldn't have been
              a problem!  And before you bring this up, most of those
              territories (along with Spain) were in fact Hapsburg possessions,
              and part of the Holy Roman Empire at one point or another.
                -- ilyas
              \_ Haha, there may be problems in his argument, but not the one
                 you are dwelling on.  He was referrring the consistituion of
                 ROC (i.e. taiwan), which claims it to be part of China.  You
                 made fun of yourself, again.
                 \_ Ok.  Show me where:
                      -- ilyas
                   \_ I don't have to.  I don't care about taiwan or china or
                      roman empire.  I just saw you misread another post in
                      such an obvious way and went ahead pouring your vast
                      "intelligence."  You should ask the guy to whom you
                      original replied to show that and thank me for helping
                      with your reading comprehension.
                      \_ I don't know.  Are you sure you schooled me?
                         Taiwanese constitution doesn't say (or at least
                         I couldn't find anything about this) "Taiwan" is a
                         part of "China".  It was merely a non-communist
                         constitution which was meant to apply to all of
                         china once the nationalists won.  They never did,
                         and it applies to a small island instead.  If you
                         really want your 10 motd points, you can have them,
                         however. -- ilyas
                         \_ The constitution specifically said that no one
                            allowed to alter the soverign territory of
                            the Republic of China, and at the time, the
                            constitution covers entire chinese mainland.
                            and this claus of contitution still exists.
                                - someone who actually can read chinese
                                  and read the damn constitution, unlike ilyas
                         \_ It has nothing to do with what any constitution
                            says, but has everything to do with the carrier
                            we want to buy from ebay for you.  I donate the
                            10 points toward its purchase.
                            \_ Tell you what.  How about I spare you the
                               trouble of replying to me in the future.  I am
                               nothing but a stuck-up, stupid, rabidly
                               libertarian, selfish, blind, easily offended,
                               unattractive, smelly, kooky, ridiculous,
                               no life loser with the attention span and
                               reading comprehension abilities of a 10
                               year old.  I should fuck off and die like my
                               libertarian ilk, and keep my rabid
                               politico-sexual fantasies to myself.  Can we
                               just agree on that?  I default on all the motd
                               points.  Any future argument between us you win
                               automatically.  I accept any remotely clever
                               jokes you make at my expense in advance.  I
                               surrender unconditionally.  -- ilyas
                               \_ You're not allowed to.  Sorry, but you lose
                                  on losing, too.  That's impressive!
           \_ Yes, outside of the big cities, there are people living
              at shocking levels of poverty.  It's really quite
              frightening, and the gov. seems uninterested in changing
              \_ When I swang by the mainland China, I was shocked by the
                 difference in standard of living between the city and
                 the country side (and I didn't even wonder off to any
                 really poor country side neither).   For a moment, I thought
                 Taiwan is much better in this regard.  Then, I realize
                 that I *RARELY* step outside the Taipei city.
                 \_ just because you rarely see outside of taipei doesn't mean
                    taiwan is full of countrysides with poor rural bumpkins.
                    taiwan is much better in this regard.
                    \_ I don't dispute that.  However, Taiwan is much smaller
                       and at least in my view should of done a better job
                       closing the gap between the country side and the city
                       than what is on the table right now.
           \_ I am not very familiar with Taiwan's government system,
              but are you sure about your claim that Taiwan does not
              have an independent judiciary branch?  Can you back it
              up?  I read a book or two by Li3 Ao2, and even under
              KMT rule (under CCG, I presume?), which he sharply criticized,
              he was able to win case after case in the courts.  That
              would be unthinkable in say, commie China.
              \_ I am sure, because I live in TW right now and I have heard
                 enough share of horror stories, to a point that I had to
                 constantly remind myself that this is not the way things
                 suppose to work.  The supreme court, for example, is extremely
                 weak and they are subject to president's political pressue.
                 This is one of the reason why nobody ever bother to ask the
                 supreme court to interpret the legality of laws and the
                 referendum conducted solely by the president right now.
                 The prosecutor general is essentially a servant of the
                 president.  Those who doesn't cooperate, including judges
                 and people on the prosecution team, gets rotated out of the
                 trial while the trial is in progress.
        \_ When I was in Singapore, I remember once where some international
           organization reclassified Singapore as a developed nation.
           The local government controlled media started trumpeting the
           achievement all over the place.  Then PM Lee Kuan Yew spoke up
           and says Singapore is still a third world country.  Lee Kuan
           Yew is smart because one still gets some advantages (trade,
           loan, etc.) by being a third world country in name.  The
           government controlled media then did a full reverse course
           and started pumping out articles on why Singapore is not yet
           a developed nation.  It was kind of funny.
           \_ Funny in the way that government controlled media is funny.
                \_ pray tell us how else could it have been funny?
                   \_ exactly my point.
        \_ Guys, you shouldn't compare everything with US.  America is an
           exceptional country, one which is founded on a sound principle
           and evolve along a sound trajectory, has always had an unbiased
           judiciary and a functining democracy.  If you have to measure
           against the US, then no other country is developed.
           \_ blah blah america is bad, the worlds problems are all our fault
              and if it wasnt for america the world would be utopia, so lets
              just raise taxes, slash the military to ribbons and pay off the
              rest of the world to like us because their liking is us is so
              important as if international politics was a playground game
2004/3/12 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:29866 Activity:high
        Why do people care about her still? Actually why did people
        even care about her in the first place?
        \_ You're supposed to be thinking about how an innocent GI got
           rescued, not the poor sods blowing up on a roadside bomb
                \_ ohhhhhhh. thanks.
2004/3/12 [Finance/Investment] UID:29867 Activity:nil 75%like:12636
3/12    What's the best/cheapest online breakfast these days?
        \_ freetrade offers 20 free tacos per month.
        \_ I use scottrade, which is cost effective if you don't trade often.
           But if you trade more than twice and less than seven times a month,
           I have a co-worker who started using sharebuilder for a flat monthly
        \_ OByermom
        \_ I've been using Ameritrade for some time. I don't know if they
           are the cheapest but I've never had problems with them and they
           provide an acct exec for people with more that $50k so that you
           have someone to talk to if there are any issues with your acct.
        \_ I use both scottrade and ameritrade (datek was bought out).
           advantages of scottrade:
                * lower commission for market trades
                * low key branch offices where you can deal with real people
                  if the need arises (mine have 3 persons there), and you can
                  call them instead of some anonymous call center.
           advantages of ameritrade:
                * lower commission for limit trades
                * shorting works (shorting at scottrade always results in
                  a message saying "please call your branch office",
                  and sometimes they can't get the shares I want even
                  when I call them.
                * extended hours trading
2019/01/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:March:12 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>