Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:March:05 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>
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2004/3/5-6 [Uncategorized] UID:12530 Activity:nil
3/5     "Don't argue with idiots.  They drag you down to their level, then
        beat you with experience."  I always forget the best axioms.
        --scotsman
        \_ Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, but the
           pig likes it.  -John
        \_ That's not an axiom.  It's an empirical result based on talking
           to tom, ivy and jsl.
           \_ Case in point. --scotsman
           \_ very nice, anonymous coward.  -tom
                \_ so I presume somewhere there was a long heated argument
                   before this ad hominen?  Where can I get a transcript of
                   this long heated argument?
                   \_ well, it's hard to say, since he's an anonymous coward,
                      but a guess would be one of the nutcase freepers
                      who delete threads when they run out of red herrings.
                        -tom
                        \_ ~mehlhaff/tmp/motd,v .  Look back about 15 years.
                           -John
                           \_ 15 years?  it has been that long.
                        \_ yeah poor tom, so friendly, so worthwhile to engage
                           in public debate.  the only thing you've ever done
                           with a name is abuse it.  when you grow up and
                           learn to behave people will stop tormenting you and
                           you'll learn the names of those you're talking to.
                           \_ I'll just follow your stellar example.  -tom
                              \_ example of what?  truth hurts, huh?
                                 \_ example of extreme hypocrisy and cowardice;
                                    what are you doing other than "abusing a
                                    name"?  -tom
                                    \_ showing pity.
                                       \_ you're a pathetic wimp.  -tom
                                          \_ there! see how you are? -reiffin
                                             \_ sorry, try again, it wasn't
                                                me but i do find your little
                                                rants amusing. -reiffin
                                             \_ sorry not me but i did find it
                                                amusing.  -reiffin
2004/3/5-8 [Industry/Jobs] UID:12531 Activity:nil
3/4     Yahoo! hiring sysadmins: /csua/pub/jobs/yahoo  -ekim
        \_ what's the pay range?  It looks junior-mid level.  Any point in
           an expensive senior guy applying?
           \_ "pay depends on experience" etc.  Several positions open.
                Well within current industry-wide ranges.  You're welcome
                to submit your resume and we can talk.
        \_ for the lazy:
Be a member of a dynamic team that is vital to Yahoo!, including our leading
Web Search engine.  You will develop, run, and monitor tools for
large-scale search clusters located around the world, using primarily
Linux.  This position is full-time, located in Sunnyvale, CA.

Responsibilities:
* Administer Linux clusters, monitor their health and performance
* Develop and maintain in-house automation for world-wide cluster operations
* Coordinate and execute changes to live cluster software and configurations
* Diagnose and repair production clusters
* Participate in the on-call pager rotation
* Collaborate in the design of cluster configurations with developers
* Work closely with other system administrator and network teams

Requirements:
* 2+ years experience with Linux
* Strong Perl scripting skills
* 2+ years experience administering large Linux installations in a tier 1
  environment
* BS Computer Science and/or strong System Administration background.

Send questions and text (or url to) resumes to ekim
2004/3/5 [Uncategorized/German] UID:12532 Activity:high Edit_by:auto
                              ACHTUNG!!!!
      Das Soda ist nicht fuer warezhausen oder mailspammen.  Ist easy
   pissenoffen die rooten und overloaden das wallall mit die fuck-youen
  und die yer-momen.  Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das majorfuckentwinken.
      Das diskhoggen pornseeren keepen das bandwit-hosen hands in das
            pockets muss.  Relaxen und watchen das wallflamen.

  UNAUTHENTICATED, UNCENSORED, SSSSSMOKIN' PUBLIC MESSAGES BELOW THIS LINE
2004/3/5-6 [Reference/Law/Court] UID:12533 Activity:very high
3/5     Martha Stewart guilty on all counts.
        \_ Did anyone else besides me find that juror saying "This is a victory
           for the little guy" unsettling? -- ilyas
           \_ This is the paackage they're selling with this whole case. "Look,
              we go after evildoers.  Never mind that the SEC audit team has
              been decimated." --scotsman
           \_ No.  See comment below about "jury was all pissed off".
              I wrote that comment before I heard about what any juror said.
              I'm sure Martha's defense managed to put some manager types
              on the jury, and they still convicted.
              \_ I ll take a public statement of a juror over your guess, as
                 far as the inclinations of the jury.  The fellow whose comment
                 about Martha buying off a juror was deleted had an amusing
                 take on the situation, although it does smell of tin and
                 foil. -- ilyas
                 \_ The point behind my comment was that I guessed at least
                    what one jury member was thinking before they confirmed it.
           \_ If you read the NYTimes site, you'll see the quote is:
           \_ Martha paid the juror to say that, so that she can appeal on the
              ground of a biased jury.
        \_ Next on Marth Stewart Living: Three simple ways to brighten up your
           jail cell.
        \_ Poor Martha, I think she got prosecuted for being really bitchy.
              \_ I ll take a public statement of a juror over your guess, as
                 far as the inclinations of the jury.  The fellow whose comment
           \_ She should just be fined. Jailing her serves to do nothing
              except make her a ward of the state which ends up costing
              taxpayers more money.
              \_ Hell no bitch. She needs to do time in a cell. A fine is
                 meaningless.
                 about Martha buying off a juror was deleted had an amusing
                 take on the situation, although it does smell of tin and
                 foil. -- ilyas
              "Maybe it's a victory for the little guys who lose money in the
              market because of these kinds of transactions."
              To me this doesn't sounds prejudicial, but more like he's
              interested in seeing a guilty woman punished for harming
              investors.
              \_ http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/05/stewart.jurors/index.html
                 Way to spin it, CNN.  -- ilyas
        \_ Poll:  What do you think the sentence should be?
           Jail > 1 year: ..
           Jail < 1 year:
           Probation/suspended sentence:
           House arrest:
           Wear polka-dots and eat McDonalds:
                    \_ Ok, so this means what in English for us little people?
           Clone Martha and have clone serve jail sentence: .
           \_ She should just be fined. Jailing her serves to do nothing
              except make her a ward of the state which ends up costing
        \_ CNN legal analyst:  "It means that, unless this is somehow undone
           on appeal, she's a felon and she's going to prison.  There's
           going to be a whole separate process in terms of what that
           sentence might be, but it's not going to be probation. It's not
           even likely to be a 'Club Fed' kind of thing.  She's actually
           going to be going to a real prison, like a real criminal."
           \_ Not 'like a real criminal'.  After she loses her appeal she'll
              be in a real prison because she is a real criminal.  And I hope
              she's only the first of many corrupt execs to follow.
        \_ Next on Marth Stewart Living: Three simple ways to brighten up your
           jail cell.
           Probation/suspended sentence:
           House arrest:
           Wear polka-dots and eat McDonalds:
           Clone Martha and have clone serve jail sentence: .
        \_ I guess the jury was all pissed off about how their bosses would
           always be telling them to do illegal things
        \_ She and Ken Lay will be playing golf together at the Federal
           Country Club for the next 18 months.
           \_ Kenny Boy is too well connected to ever to go jail. Only
              little people and Democrats get busted for white collar crime.
              \_ Oh really?  Name those Democrats.
              taxpayers more money.
              \_ Hell no bitch. She needs to do time in a cell. A fine is
                 meaningless.
                 \_ Fuck you asshole. If you want to pay for her jailtime
                    go right ahead. It costs about $100,000 per annum to
                    keep someone incarcerate. Don't fucking mouth off
                    before you know what the fuck you're talking about.
                    \_ I know exactly what I'm talking about. Fines for people
                       who are already fucking billionaires don't mean shit.
                       It costs money to enforce the law. Bitch.
        \_ I guess the jury was all pissed off about how their bosses would
           always be telling them to do illegal things
        \_ She and Ken Lay will be playing golf together at the Federal
           Country Club for the next 18 months.
           \_ Kenny Boy is too well connected to ever to go jail. Only
              little people and Democrats get busted for white collar crime.
              \_ Oh really?  Name those Democrats.
                 \_ Martha is a prominent Dem contributor.  However, with
                    repect to Ken Lay you really need to consider the
                    the time period of Enron's ascendence - the 1990s.
                    Enron received significant Federal help, in some cases
                    as it should have, during the '90s.
                    After all it was Robert Rubin, who had moved to
                    Citigroup, who called Oneil and asked the
                    Fed to bail out Enron (ala LTCM).  Citigroup, in
                    case you don't know, was one of Enron's financiers.
                    \_ Ok, so this means what in English for us little people?
                        \_ Rubin was Clinton's Treasury Secretary who oversaw
                           the bailout of Mexico, Long Term Capital Management,
                           and others.  Before this he was President (?) of
                           Goldman Sachs which made some of the Mexico loans
                           covered in the bailout.  Post-2000 Rubin moved
                           to Citigroup which had facilitated a significant
                           portion of the 'creative' financing that allowed
                           Enron to do what it did.  Rubin then had the gall
                           to call Bush's Treasury Secretary Oneill in ~Feb of
                           to call Bush's Treasury Secretary Oneill in ~Nov of
                           2001 to ask the Fed to bailout Enron (ie. act as
                           Rubin had).  All this means that the Wall Street
                           has far too much power in the Fed gov't.  When
                           people complain about the 'military industrial
                           complex' it absolutely pales in comparison to
                           the rent Wall Street (and the medical / insurance
                           BTW) extorts from the U.S. taxpayer.
        \_ She was a licensed stock broker before she became the Martha
           Stewart we know.  She knew exactly what she was doing, then
           tried to obstruct justice... she deserves her punishment.
        \_ CNN legal analyst:  "It means that, unless this is somehow undone
           on appeal, she's a felon and she's going to prison.  There's
           going to be a whole separate process in terms of what that
           sentence might be, but it's not going to be probation. It's not
           even likely to be a 'Club Fed' kind of thing.  She's actually
           going to be going to a real prison, like a real criminal."
           \_ Not 'like a real criminal'.  After she loses her appeal she'll
              be in a real prison because she is a real criminal.  And I hope
              she's only the first of many corrupt execs to follow.
2004/3/5-6 [Recreation/Woodworking] UID:12534 Activity:high
3/5     How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
        \_ In 4/4 time: ta ta ta tata | ta ta ta tata | ta ta ta ta | ta - - -
        \_ a woodchuck could chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a
           woodchuck could chuck wood
        \_ a woodchuck would chuck all the wood he could if a woodchuck could
           chuck wood.
        \_ shouldn't "could" be "would"?
           \_ How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck
              wood?
        \_ as much wood a woodchuck would chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood
           \_ In 4/4 time: ta ta ta ta | tata ta ta tata | ta ta ta ta |
               ta - - -
        \_ a woodchuck would chuck all the wood he could if a woodchuck could
           chuck wood.
2004/3/5-6 [Academia, Academia/GradSchool] UID:12535 Activity:high
3/5     Are scholarships that are offered to certain racial groups
        legal? If you open up an offer such as this to the public,
        shouldn't it be made available to everyone?
        \_ Private scholarships can be given to whoever they want.  You have
           a constitutionally-protected right to be a racist.
        \_ Yes if it's not for whites.
           \- there was an east coast school that had a white only scholarship
              but it was a disingenuous thing to either get into court or
              just get coverage. --psb
              \_ anything that doesn't fit your worldview is just a stunt,
                 huh?  how very open minded of you.
                 \_ That what they say they are trying to do - get
                    people to think about race-based scholarships. -!psb
           \_ There are a couple tiny funds run by white supremacist orgs.
                    \- it wasnt a stunt, it was a calculated decision.
                       unclear whether the reason was publicity or legal
                       standing, but the persons setting up the scholarship
                       didnt really even deny that. --psb
                       \_ let's grant for a moment that it was a stunt, why do
                          you think they felt this stunt was necessary?  is it
                          simply that they are just hateful racist or is there
                          something more to it.
                          \_ it is likely that they are trying to convince
                             themselves that whites are the oppressed race,
                             despite all evidence to the contrary.
2004/3/5-6 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:12536 Activity:low
3/5     Anyone have any experience buying a low-end IBM thinkpad?  Are they
        as well-constructed as the high-end models?  Anything I should be
        aware of?
        \_ I've been using an R30 for 2+ years, and so far it's holding
           up well.  I use it a few hours a week at home, and
           take it out for a presentation once every week, so it's not
           very heavy use.  The case, etc. feels very well constructed
           compared to the lower end models of other brands, some of
           which feel really cheap.  OTOH, the price difference between
           the T and R series seemed to have narrowed a little.
           compared to the lower end models of other brands.
        \_ which are low-end?  coworkers and I have been through various
           X and T series thinkpads... the finish tends to wear off
           and you might lose a disk now and then without other parts
           falling off!  after opening/closing the lid on an X22 twice
           a day at home (morning and night email runs), the hinge
           got soft but still worked fine.  one guy seems to destroy
           displays some how.  i fly all the time w/ mine in barely
           padded carryon luggage and have had no problems.
           very heavy use.
           \_ I'm talking about the cheap ends of the R and G-series. -op
2004/3/5 [Uncategorized] UID:12537 Activity:kinda low
3/5     Is there a soda program to take a bunch of attached jpgs out of an
        email and saving them as files?
        \_ /usr/local/bin/munpack for all MIME or split-uuencode attachments.
           \_ thanks, this is perfect
2004/3/5-6 [Academia/Berkeley] UID:12538 Activity:nil
3/5     The University wants your feedback on a draft of its "Principles of
        Community" mission statement. As someone who remembers the lecture
        courses of 250+ students and a few garishly cold TAs from her
        undergraduate years, I found it hilarious! Now's your chance
        to let the University know what you think of its "caring and
        support for all campus community members" (I'm not making it up!):
        http://osr2.berkeley.edu/poc.html
        \_ Hehe, I saw this yesterday and cannot imagine how it would be
           any more relevant than a "mission statement."  What a waste of
           time.
           \_ I think it's in line with them suggesting students charged with
              conduct violations don't need lawyers, because it's an
              "educational" process.  Also how GSI's can't have a union because
              they're "not employees".
              \_ Just for the record: When you're not categorized as an
                 employee (as many grad students are not), you don't have to
                 pay certain taxes (social security, unemployment, etc.),
                 which is a good thing if you're a starving student.
                 \_ This is not the case at UC Berkeley, at least. Yes, the UC
                    managed to finagle its way out of SS payments, but my wife
                    (a GSR) pays into an alternative fund that she'll never see
                    a dime of. Yes, taxes are less, but her annual income is
                    so small that, as a student, the lack of certain taxes
                    hardly makes a difference. She, and most other non-engineer
                    and non-phys science GSRs I've known would much prefer the
                    employee designation. Fortunately, this change is
                    happening, mainly thanks to the recent spate of
                    unionizations.
        \_ I agree with the above.  It's a basket of crap.
2004/3/5 [Uncategorized] UID:12539 Activity:nil
3/5     Someone mentioned an e-mail address to which we can forward spams
        in order for the govt to take some action.  What is the address again?
        Thanks.
        \_ There's fraud@ftc.gov, but that's only for out-and-out scams, like
           MIRIAM ABACHA and the rest of the 419 crowd.  I think all mails
           there probably get saved to a giant database and then ignored.
2004/3/5-6 [Academia/Berkeley/CSUA/Motd, Computer/SW/Editors/Vi] UID:12540 Activity:moderate
3/5     Why is that when I edit the motd with VI, When I save, sometimes it
        says it's been modified, use "!" to override.  I thought when I use
        vi to edit it, I get a lock on the file.
        \_ Because the motd is a gloriously free file.  the entire world can
           and does edit it.
        \_ If you have a lock, no one else *should* edit it, but they can.
           Since they basically just stomped on your privelidge, I usually just
           stomp on their changes.
           \_ you shouldn't get a lock when you're editing the file. you could
              be taking your sweet time typing stuff in, while other people are
              waiting. when you're finally ready to save, your editor should
              tell you if the file has changed on disk, and you can reload the
              file and merge your changes if that's true. [formatd]
              \_ That's acceptable in a development environment.  in practice,
                 on a machine with hundreds of users, this is much more
                 difficult to accomplish.  --scotsman
                 difficult to accomplish.
                 \_ in practice, on soda, it works fine for me.
                    \_ I'm not talking about "you".  I'm talking about communal
                    \_ I'm not talking about "you".  I'm talking about communal
                       use.
                       use. --scotsman
                       \_ umm, i am saying this would work fine on soda for
                          communal use, dimwit. the motd isn't *that* contended
                          for.
                          \_ Again.  Not. Everyone. Uses. The. Same. Editor.
                             Not everyone on here has the same technical
                             ability.  Are you going to personally train
                             everyone who accesses the motd? --scotsman
                             \_ you're dumb too, or can't read. i may have used
                                too many words to describe it, but this is one
                                of the simplest schemes possible if you still
                                want to be polite. simpler schemes generally
                                involve locking the file for yourself for
                                protracted lengths of time, or just going ahead
                                and overwriting other people's changes.
                                \_ You're very clearly not actually reading what
                                   anyone has said.  We know your side of the
                    \_ I'm not talking about "you".  I'm talking about communal
                       use.
                          communal use, dimwit. the motd isn't *that* contended
                          for.
                                   argument, but there are points to it you
                                   are ignoring or dismissing.  This is my
                                   last word on it. --scotsman
           \_ are you saying when you start up your editor on the motd, you
              do get a note saying it's been locked?  Actually, VI is very
              good, if the file you are view is locked, it tells you its
              in read-only mode.
              \_ Not every editor is as helpful as vi.  some don't even tell you
                 that the file on disk has changed.  this is what motdedit has
                 tried to address, but it's a difficult task, and the current
                 motdedit has trouble when people remove sections. --scotsman
                \_ so motdedit is trying to allow multiple edit sessions and
                   merging them?
                            \_ same as always.
                   \_ Only if you run motdedit -n or some jackass modifies
                      the motd without using motdedit.
                   \_ Only if you run motdedit -n or some jackass modifies
                      the motd without using motdedit.
                      \_ until motdedit is mandatory, motedit is an 'option'.
                         people who choose a different option from you are
                         not automatically assholes.
                         \_ so now what's the argument to not use motdedit?
                            just out of spite?
                            \_ same as always.
2004/3/5-6 [Recreation/Food/Alcohol, Recreation/Food] UID:12541 Activity:high
3/5     Wired has an article about tracing meat (and all food) back to the
        source, and mentions Niman ranch.  Does anybody know more about this
        place (eg, visited a supplier)?  Is it a free range sort of operation?
     http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.03/start.html?pg=2?tw=wn_tophead_8
        \_ Niman is as politically correct as a meat-purveyor
           can get without letting all its animals munch on grass. Chez
           Panisse gets most of its meat from Niman, if that means anything.
           \_ Is it really such a problem to let the animals walk around a bit
              and... I don't know, sniff flowers, have sex with each other, do
              what animals do?  I'm not trying to sound like a smartass, I'm
                     \_ duh, it costs more money
              just wondering if it's possible to get meat that was raised this
              way, and how to find it.
              \_ http://www.nimanranch.com
                 Before moving to meat-packing nirvana (Chicago), I'd get
                 grass-fed beef from Berkeley Bowl. The guys
                 Niman's grass-fed beef from Berkeley Bowl. The guys
                 behind the meat counter would be kind enough to give
                 me detailed directions for cooking (temp not as high,
                 time not as long). The Wednesday food section of http://sfgate.com
                 has featured many articles on beef sources. Do a search
                 for "grass-fed" in its archives. -elizp
                 \_ what brought you to chicago?
                    \_ My husband (login: fab --  yes, we're yet another
                       pair of csua breeders) was a UChicago grad student
                       while I taught at DePaul. -elizp
                       \_ oh, I took a class at DePaul last year, and am
                          thinking of a part-time MBA at UChicago.
                 me detailed directions for cooking (temp not as high,
                 time not as long). -elizp
                 for "grass-fed" in its archives. -elizp
                       while I taught at DePaul. -elizp
                          What's fab studying at UC?
              \_ Walk around:  Pigs and cows can do this already.  They're not
                 the most athletic animals, though.
                 Sniff flowers: They are penned in high-enough densities that
                 flowers get trampled.  For there to be non-trampled flowers,
                 they'd have to be kept in a large area, like rangeland.  That
                 costs $$.  Have sex?  No way.  They are selectively bred.
                 If they were allowed to breed randomly, you'd get traits that
                 are undesireable in a food animal.  Plus they are usually
                 sterilized and/or segregated so they won't fight.  Would it
                 really make sense to have bulls or roosters fighting all day?
2004/3/5-6 [Uncategorized] UID:12542 Activity:kinda low
3/5     It is time for vigilante action against spammers.
        \_ it was time years ago.
        \_ vigilante action against spammers has been going on as long as
           spam has--it has accomplished nothing.  -tom
        \_ Uzani, his army, with fists open.  His army with fists closed.
           \_ too much STNG for you
              \_ Temarc. The river Temarc, in winter.
              \_ Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra.
                 \_ Arms wide open?
              \_ Daramk and Jalad at Tenagra.
        \_ sick Shipley on them?
2004/3/5-8 [Computer/HW/Laptop] UID:12543 Activity:nil
3/5     I meant to follow up on someone's comment from 3/2 but forgot:
        quote:   Don't get the Inspirons.  My co-worker has a D800 which
                 stopped working.  Whatever you do, get the 1024x768
                 XGA screen (not 1400x1050 or higher).  I believe all 14"
                 notebooks you find will weigh at least 4.5 lbs. (unless
                 it's a Mac notebook).
        So... what's with that screen comment? Why not the high res? If it's
        because things get tiny, you can just change the DPI setting in Windows
        I think. Eh?
        \_ Even if you change the DPI setting, certain things (balloon tips
           for one I believe) stay at the original pixel size.  Images in
           the browser look terrible when interpolated, and you need to mod
           the registry to keep them at the original size.  Then the pictures
           look too small.  Summary:  having the 1400x1050 screen isn't as
           terrible as I made it sound, but it's annoying at least.
           \_ i liked it. 1600x1200 was bad, but 1400x1050 was fine by me
              (a lot more useful than 1024x768 anyway). otoh, the inspiron
              i had felt shoddily constructed (and was!).
           \_ I have a D600 from work and I like the 1400x1050 screen.
              Some of my friends like 1400x1050, some hate it.  Seems
              like its a matter of preference.
        \_ How can anyone stand looking at 14x10 on a 14" screen?  I set my
           21" crt to 12x10.  Do you guys have enhanced vision or what?
           \_ have you gotten an eye exam anytime recently? or maybe you're
              just firmly entrenched in the brian harvey camp of font sizes.
              \_ 20/20.  So how far back do you sit from your screen?  I'm
                 pretty far back.  Is your screen 18 inches away?
           \_ How can you stand small desktop space when you can have big
              desktop space?  I use 1600x1200 on a 19" crt.
              \_ small is relative.  it's the largest desktop that doesn't
                 make weird fonts and I can read without leaning forward.
                 i play games in whatever looks best for each game, though.
        \_ most Laptop's LCD is optimized to ONE single resolution, and I
           usually don't bother with tinkering with other resolution than
           the default one.  (1024x768 on 12")
            \_ I believe LCD's have only one native resolution.
               all other resilutions look like crap.
2004/3/5-7 [Computer/SW/OS/Windows, Computer/SW/Unix] UID:12544 Activity:nil
3/5     Anyone know what might have caused the below error and how I
        should go about fixing it?  --darin
        >df
        Filesystem           1k-blocks      Used Available Use% Mounted on
        /dev/hda1            -502950272238         1         0  56% /
        \_ Your superblock table is screwed up.
                \_So how do I fix it?
                  \_ superblock is being duplicated every 2000 blocks or so,
                     so when you do fsck, manually use another superblock.
                     I've forgot the exact syntax nor exactly how many blocks
                     is superblock duplicated, but you can go from here.
        \_ fsck -b blocknumber
           Block 32 is usually an alternate superblock.
           Man fsck on your OS to make sure.
2004/3/5-6 [Uncategorized] UID:12545 Activity:nil
3/5     ICGE guy, their BlackBoard is going to IPO.
2004/3/5-6 [Health, Industry/Jobs] UID:12546 Activity:nil
3/5     http://store.nimanranch.com/store/nimanranch/help3.jsp
        This FAQ is particularly enlightening.
        \_ That's also disgusting. Who feeds plastic to animals for "roughage"?
2004/3/5 [Uncategorized] UID:12547 Activity:nil
3/5     [ censoring is bad. ]
2004/3/5-8 [Uncategorized] UID:12548 Activity:nil
3/5     How do people calculate the surface area of porous rocks
        or other similar "holey" surfaces?
        \_ Heat exchange is proportional to surface area.  You can try putting
           the rock in water, and designing some simple experiments to figure
           out what the surface area must be.  (This will not give you an
           exact answer, but a better approximation than geometric methods, I
           think).  -- ilyas
        \_ exact or estimate?
                \_ either -op
                   \_ estimate: get a box, ball or other object of the same
                      general shape, measure & calculate.  i have no clue at
                      all how to do the exact surface area.  i guess if you
                      painted the object with a known thickness of another
                      substance but that sounds really iffy to me.
                      \_ estimates should at be accurate within an order of
                         magnitude.  your method provides no such guarantee and
                         is likely to be way, way off.
                         \_ shrug, no one else was even trying.  note below
                            that someone else says my 'coat it with a
                            substance' method is actually what chemists do.
                            so if my method is so poor, what is your method?
                            \_ I don't have a method.  I know that I don't know
                               the answer.
                               \_ ok then, someone else said my idea is what
                                  happens in the real world and you have no
                                  idea at all.  thanks for clarifying.
                                  \_ I was objecting to your /estimate/ about
                                     finding an object of the same general
                                     shape.  The /exact/ method with the paint
                                     is fine.  Yeesh.
        \_ this is a very common problem among chemical enginners who
           dealt with catalyst all the time. go ask them.  If it's a rock
           of irregular shape, then, people usually just estimate them.
           otherwise, there are fancy ways such as putting a chemical cloat
           on that thing, by finding out how much chemical you used, you get
           a good estimate of what is the surface area.
        \_ see Perry's Chemical Engineering Guide. in Chemistry Library
                \_ I'm nowhere near berkeley. can you summarize then?
2004/3/5 [Uncategorized] UID:29858 Activity:nil
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2004/3/5 [Computer/Rants] UID:29859 Activity:nil
3/5     Al Gore created the Internet, Bill Gates to destroy it with
        email stamps.
2017/09/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
9/23    
Berkeley CSUA MOTD:2004:March:05 Friday <Thursday, Saturday>